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Feenix566
09-09-2005, 11:11 AM
Is Anything Not Interstate Commerce?
Will a Supreme Court led by John Roberts find limits to Congress' power?
Jacob Sullum


William Rehnquist's most important accomplishment on the Supreme Court was to restore a modicum of respect for constitutional limits on federal authority—not the limits imposed by specified individual rights but the more fundamental and potentially more consequential limits imposed by insisting that congressional acts be grounded in specifically enumerated constitutional powers. Rehnquist's signal contribution was to remind Congress, his colleagues, and the nation that a wide-ranging federal power to do good things does not exist.

"We start with first principles," the chief justice wrote in the 1995 decision U.S. v. Lopez, which overturned the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. "The Constitution creates a Federal Government of enumerated powers."

Those were thrilling words for critics of an ever-expanding federal government who had grown accustomed to a Congress that felt free to legislate on virtually any subject, citing its power to regulate interstate commerce as an all-purpose justification. It seemed the Supreme Court had rediscovered the principle that congressional legislation has to be authorized by the Constitution.

Judge John G. Roberts, the man whom President Bush has chosen to take Rehnquist's place as chief justice, has indicated sympathy for that idea—a fact that alarms not only the Democrats but Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), who is expected to press Roberts on the issue during his confirmation hearings next week. Indeed, it is doubtful that a single member of Congress, with the exception of Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), truly wants a Supreme Court that is serious about enforcing the Constitution's limits on congressional power.

But defenders of Leviathan have little to worry about, even if Roberts turns out to be as interested in a revival of federalism as his mentor and predecessor. The Supreme Court has been hesitant to continue in the direction signaled by Lopez, and only one justice, Clarence Thomas, has shown the stomach for following it to its logical destination, where regulating interstate commerce actually means regulating interstate commerce.

In Lopez, the government said it meant prohibiting possession of a gun in or near a school, a claim five justices rejected. "If we were to accept the government's arguments," Rehnquist wrote in the majority opinion, "we are hard-pressed to posit any activity by an individual that Congress is without power to regulate."

Five years later, in U.S. v. Morrison, the same five-justice majority overturned a provision of the Violence Against Women Act that allowed victims of gender-motivated violence to sue their attackers in federal court. "The Constitution requires a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local," Rehnquist wrote.

The weakness of the new federalist majority became clear this year in Gonzales v. Raich, a case in which Justices Antonin Scalia and Anthony Kennedy switched sides to uphold the federal government's authority to arrest patients who grow marijuana for their own medical use, even in states where such use is legal. Rehnquist, to his credit, continued to insist upon "a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local," as did Thomas and Sandra Day O'Connor.

Given the outcome of that case, the prospects for a newly constrained federal government are not bright. But if Roberts is as supportive of that goal as Arlen Specter fears and if O'Connor's yet-to-be-named successor is similarly inclined, there is some hope of luring Scalia and Kennedy back to a majority that tries to prevent the Commerce Clause from swallowing the rest of the Constitution. The next major test will be a case the Court is scheduled to hear this fall involving the Justice Department's attempt to override Oregon's assisted suicide law.

It is plain from the Bush administration's position in that case, in Raich, and in controversies ranging from the treatment of fetuses to the treatment of adults in persistent vegetative states, that the president has little interest in preserving federalism, despite his promise to appoint justices who apply the Constitution as written instead of rewriting it to suit their policy preferences. A president who thinks the federal government should oversee every school system in the country and pay for every senior citizen's prescription drugs is clearly not eager to pursue the Framers' vision of a political system in which such matters "are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people," as the nearly forgotten 10th Amendment says.

But given Bush's apparent preference for nominees who can be readily confirmed because there is little solid evidence of their views, perhaps he will accidentally deliver on his promise.


http://www.reason.com/sullum/090905.shtml

Feenix566
09-12-2005, 11:12 AM
I guess this topic isn't as sexy as, say, who to blame for New Orleans, or yet another thread for arguing about the Iraq war. And yet this topic affects us all much more than either of those issues, because the federal government is pretty much taking the authority to do whatever it pleases, and no one is doing anything to stop them.

hadit
09-12-2005, 01:06 PM
I guess this topic isn't as sexy as, say, who to blame for New Orleans, or yet another thread for arguing about the Iraq war. And yet this topic affects us all much more than either of those issues, because the federal government is pretty much taking the authority to do whatever it pleases, and no one is doing anything to stop them.

The Interstate Commerce clause has, IMO, been the most egregiously abused piece of legislation yet. The fact that Roberts refusing to apply it to protect a frog that lives entirely within one state is controversial is sad, to say the least.

soylentgreen
09-12-2005, 01:09 PM
I don't know if the topic is "sexy", but I do think it is important and interesting. I am one who thinks the federal government ought to be restrained to the powers enumerated in the Constitution. I hope that in the future, the court will agree.

ResidentRice
09-12-2005, 07:49 PM
But where to draw the line? The interstate comm. is a total crock and so widely misconstrued to fit political purposes, true. But what powers should the federal government have? I don't think its a good idea for justices to fall in love with the lettering of the constitution. I sometimes sense that from the judiciary, and it eerily reminds me of bible-thumpers. For everything, there's a line in the constitution (bible) that somehow refers to it. Like, the overly long semantics debates over the second amendment, whether the placing of the comma meant this or that, or lack of comma had significance. I believe America's founding fathers to be men of intelligence, rational thought, and a good deal of foresight, but you think they could even remotely begin to imagine our world? And do you think they were so grammatically aware that they intentionally did or did not use punctuation marks so that scholars could debate the issue 200 years later?

My point is that yes, the constitution should be the basis of the Supreme Court's decision making. But we also must realize that those are PEOPLE with brains sitting on the bench, very intelligent brains, and that they're going to quote the constitution to fit whatever they feel is "right," just like how I hear so many bible-thumpers find a certain passage to justify whatever they feel is right.

hadit
09-13-2005, 08:25 AM
But where to draw the line? The interstate comm. is a total crock and so widely misconstrued to fit political purposes, true. But what powers should the federal government have? I don't think its a good idea for justices to fall in love with the lettering of the constitution. I sometimes sense that from the judiciary, and it eerily reminds me of bible-thumpers. For everything, there's a line in the constitution (bible) that somehow refers to it. Like, the overly long semantics debates over the second amendment, whether the placing of the comma meant this or that, or lack of comma had significance. I believe America's founding fathers to be men of intelligence, rational thought, and a good deal of foresight, but you think they could even remotely begin to imagine our world? And do you think they were so grammatically aware that they intentionally did or did not use punctuation marks so that scholars could debate the issue 200 years later?

My point is that yes, the constitution should be the basis of the Supreme Court's decision making. But we also must realize that those are PEOPLE with brains sitting on the bench, very intelligent brains, and that they're going to quote the constitution to fit whatever they feel is "right," just like how I hear so many bible-thumpers find a certain passage to justify whatever they feel is right.

That's why we have the amendment process. If the Constitution means only what a set of judges thinks it means at the moment, it's worthless as a legal foundation. If we think we should have the right to "privacy", but the Constitution doesn't make mention of it, then we should go through the amendment process and put it in there. As it stands now, 5 people have the ability to re-interpret the Constitution to mean the exact opposite of what it meant the last time they considered it.

Feenix566
09-13-2005, 10:45 AM
The whole reason we have a Constituion in the first place is so that there is a basline of laws that cannot be overturned by a group of politicians who just happen to have a controlling majority in both houses of congress for a few years.

Strict majority rule doesn't work. It's like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. You MUST have a set of laws that are sacred, and cannot be overturned by the whims of any current administration. Without that, democracy is no better than tyrrany.

caddis
09-13-2005, 12:38 PM
The Interstate Commerce clause has, IMO, been the most egregiously abused piece of legislation yet. The fact that Roberts refusing to apply it to protect a frog that lives entirely within one state is controversial is sad, to say the least. :werd:

The interstate comm. is a total crock and so widely misconstrued to fit political purposes, true. And we find common ground again


To answer the topic question, the one thing that doesn't fall under interstate commerce but could/should is Drivers licenses. If you are gonna regulate interstate commerce then begin with how that commerce crosses state lines. One unified license makes more sense then 50 different ones. It would also simplify a lot of other issues concerning homeland defense, national ID, immigration, fugitives... I'm not high on government regulations and bureaucracy but dealing with one government institution seems a lot simpler then 2,3,4,5 at a time:soapbox:

Feenix566
09-13-2005, 01:01 PM
To answer the topic question, the one thing that doesn't fall under interstate commerce but could/should is Drivers licenses. If you are gonna regulate interstate commerce then begin with how that commerce crosses state lines. One unified license makes more sense then 50 different ones. It would also simplify a lot of other issues concerning homeland defense, national ID, immigration, fugitives... I'm not high on government regulations and bureaucracy but dealing with one government institution seems a lot simpler then 2,3,4,5 at a time:soapbox:


Yeah, right! :not:

You think the DMV sucks ass now? Just wait 'till it's run by the federal government! How would you like to have to rely on the IRS for your legal right to drive to work every day?

hadit
09-13-2005, 01:15 PM
Yeah, right! :not:

You think the DMV sucks ass now? Just wait 'till it's run by the federal government! How would you like to have to rely on the IRS for your legal right to drive to work every day?

:yeahthat:

caddis
09-13-2005, 02:33 PM
Yeah, right! :not:

You think the DMV sucks ass now? Just wait 'till it's run by the federal government! How would you like to have to rely on the IRS for your legal right to drive to work every day?
Does your state revoke your license now if you owe them taxes? Why assume the feds will?

Feenix566
09-13-2005, 03:30 PM
Does your state revoke your license now if you owe them taxes? Why assume the feds will?

The point I was trying to make is that federal agencies are notoriously ineffecient and ineffective. If the federal DMV was run in any way similar to the way that the IRS is run, getting your license renewed will be a royal pain in the ass ten times worse than what you have to deal with now. I didn't mean that you would literally have to call up the IRS to have your license renwewed. Althought I wouldn't be at all surprised if they decided to revoke your license for all sorts of stupid reasons, such as blemishes on your tax record.

hadit
09-13-2005, 03:33 PM
The point I was trying to make is that federal agencies are notoriously ineffecient and ineffective. If the federal DMV was run in any way similar to the way that the IRS is run, getting your license renewed will be a royal pain in the ass ten times worse than what you have to deal with now. I didn't mean that you would literally have to call up the IRS to have your license renwewed. Althought I wouldn't be at all surprised if they decided to revoke your license for all sorts of stupid reasons, such as blemishes on your tax record.

That's a good point. Do we really want Massachussetts' Senators and Representatives helping to dictate conditions under which residents of Georgia can get a driver's license?

caddis
09-13-2005, 04:19 PM
The point I was trying to make is that federal agencies are notoriously ineffecient and ineffective. If the federal DMV was run in any way similar to the way that the IRS is run, getting your license renewed will be a royal pain in the ass ten times worse than what you have to deal with now. I didn't mean that you would literally have to call up the IRS to have your license renwewed. Althought I wouldn't be at all surprised if they decided to revoke your license for all sorts of stupid reasons, such as blemishes on your tax record.Can a state department of motor vehicles not issue a federal license? Let the state stick with doing exactly what they do but unify the license...one data base for all 50 states seems more efficient then 50.

Feenix566
09-13-2005, 05:11 PM
Can a state department of motor vehicles not issue a federal license? Let the state stick with doing exactly what they do but unify the license...one data base for all 50 states seems more efficient then 50.

Try mentioning that idea to a Senator... you know what he'll say? He'll say we need a federal agency to oversee the database. And then presto! That agencies' powers will get bigger and bigger every time they make a mistake, until pretty soon you'll have the federal DMV.

ResidentRice
09-13-2005, 06:21 PM
Can a state department of motor vehicles not issue a federal license? Let the state stick with doing exactly what they do but unify the license...one data base for all 50 states seems more efficient then 50.


This sickens me! The simple idea of that, a national ID/driver's license card issued by the state governments......


I can't believe I agree with Caddis again.

sigh

I think I'm going to have to turn in my "wombat" license for the week. Sorry commies, you just lost another one.

jimmyjude
09-17-2005, 05:54 PM
It is a great question, and one that should be considered when the "people" advocate further left-wing policies.

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