http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4639731.stm

A religious protester has stabbed three people taking part in an annual gay pride parade in Jerusalem.

The attack happened as hundreds of scantily-clad revellers danced and kissed their way through the city.

Israeli police arrested a suspect, and the victims - a man and two women - were taken to hospital.

A Jerusalem court lifted a ban on the parade by the city council, which warned the event would be "provocative" and set off unrest.

Jewish, Muslim and Christian leaders in the city had protested against the march.

At the entrance to the city, protesters erected a banner that read "Welcome to Sodom", while opponents set off a stink bomb at the parade's starting point.

The march continued despite the violence.

"It took many years for Jerusalem to have the gay pride parade," participant Moshik Toledano, 39, told AP news agency, "but once it happens it makes no difference if the ultra-Orthodox come here and try to stop it."

Hope no blood was spilled on protesters .

^Classy.

^Classy.

I'll tell you what is not ' classy ' . Watching peoplejump to their death and seeing the palistinians celebrate in the street then and any other time America gets it from these demons . Or heaing the pleas from a person begging , then grouning while his head is slowly sawed off with a dull knife ! Only the ones who agree with them defends them . Are you one ?

Maybe someday soon us or one of ours will get the same thing Van Gogh got , then we'll see how much sympathy you'll have when it happens to us . One less murderous fantic is always good . Groups with terrorist ties are comming across our borders as we write .

I'll tell you what is not ' classy ' . Watching peoplejump to their death and seeing the palistinians celebrate in the street then and any other time America gets it from these demons . Or heaing the pleas from a person begging , then grouning while his head is slowly sawed off with a dull knife ! Only the ones who agree with them defends them . Are you one ?

The trade mark Guesswho rambling.
What on earth does any of that have to do with this thread, and the crassness of your remark?

Disgusting.

M.

Are you in the right thread? What the hell are you talking about?

Are you in the right thread? What the hell are you talking about?

I think she's very, very confused.

M.

I think she's very, very confused.

M.


No I'm not in the right thread ,sorry'. :confused: I was listeing to radio station and that terrible tae of that man being beheaded came on . I turned it off ,but not soon enough ! It was horrible and guess I lost it for awhile.

No I'm not in the right thread ,sorry'. :confused: I was listeing to radio station and that terrible tae of that man being beheaded came on . I turned it off ,but not soon enough ! It was horrible and guess I lost it for awhile.

Did they actually broadcast the sound of the sawing and groaning?
Nasty!

M.

Did they actually broadcast the sound of the sawing and groaning?
Nasty!

M.

Yes they also have a vidio of it on a website, but I would never see it . I did'nt realize what it was when it came on , until a few seconds later. I had heard it before and turned it off after seconds then too . You don't have to see it to know whats going on . We all know what happemed.

I was checking out the story and that all major religions seem to agree that homosexual parades are in bad taste. However, in a related story, some Muslims believe Allah is making them gay. :p

related article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1405460.stm)

protesters erected a banner

*snicker*

a dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste, Xach. :D

This is one of the main reasons most people go' homophobic '. Other is how repulsive it is to most . But most would let them stay in their closets away from normal people , but the combatant additude and the continuous pushing of agendas and recruitment of children is comming to a head . They may win against the no-violent now, but there is a building force arising who will crush them ,thanks to liberals [ both politicle parties ] who help it grow . The very ones who call for immigration ,will be the biggest targets later on . Isn't it ironic ?

Gays in Israel for years are having a parad in Tel-Aviv.
Why the hell they insist they must to have one in such religous conservative place like Jerusalme - is behind mine understanding.

Gays in Israel for years are having a parad in Tel-Aviv.
Why the hell they insist they must to have one in such religous conservative place like Jerusalme - is behind mine understanding.


Pardon the punt, but it's the 'in your face ' thing with the combatants sickos . They also had to go smear their stuff all over Disneyworld . This has always been known as the , kids kingdom . They had queer [ I will never molest the word 'gay' ] day there too .

Hollowing we had sodomy for breakfast and sex before eight or it's too late slogans ,in parades as the men sometimes naked and woman topless, in front of the kids . I just don't understand where society is cowering at . It's like a bad western movies, where all the town people leave when the gunslingers come in .

Pay attention to this and other world happenings and you may be non secular before you know it . Same thing happen to earth in Noahs day and the family of Lot in Sodom and Gommorah .

damn gays, corrupting donald duck and mickey mouse.

but seriously, when women wanted to vote and have rights, people were against it as well. it took a long and hard fight to get them accepted as equals, and it still inst finished.
gays have teh same road to go, and what shocks now, will be normal to new generations.
IM sure there will allways be people hating gays, beating and hating women, though.

and isnt jerusalem a city where people live, are born, and are possibly gay? should those gays in hjerusalem then move to tel aviv because they are not tolerated by religous fanatics?

damn gays, corrupting donald duck and mickey mouse.


Who are you kidding? Donald and Mickey were already corrupted...

Mickey runs around all the time without a shirt on, the pervert. And Donald is worse! He doesn't wear any pants!

These sickos at Disney are trying to turn our kids into nudists!! (Or is that pre-adolescent consumers? I can never remember...)

Who are you kidding? Donald and Mickey were already corrupted...

Mickey runs around all the time without a shirt on, the pervert. And Donald is worse! He doesn't wear any pants!

These sickos at Disney are trying to turn our kids into nudists!! (Or is that pre-adolescent consumers? I can never remember...)

hehe!
:nice:

Who are you kidding? Donald and Mickey were already corrupted...

Mickey runs around all the time without a shirt on, the pervert. And Donald is worse! He doesn't wear any pants!

These sickos at Disney are trying to turn our kids into nudists!! (Or is that pre-adolescent consumers? I can never remember...) yea and the nephews, allso naked.... its just not christian.

damn gays, corrupting donald duck and mickey mouse.

but seriously, when women wanted to vote and have rights, people were against it as well. it took a long and hard fight to get them accepted as equals, and it still inst finished.
gays have teh same road to go, and what shocks now, will be normal to new generations.
IM sure there will allways be people hating gays, beating and hating women, though.

and isnt jerusalem a city where people live, are born, and are possibly gay? should those gays in hjerusalem then move to tel aviv because they are not tolerated by religous fanatics?

There is a difference between living normal life and demanding full rights, or having a parad with people dressed and behave last thing but modest in a place that is considered by many as holly

Parading sometimes half naked, which is usual part of gay parad in Tel-Aviv, in a place where peope are offended by such sight - is not a part of "human rights", but a provocation.
The population of Tel-Aviv is different - it does not mind and even enjoys such events, so nothing wrong if the jerusalem gays will come to celebrate their proud in such colorfull way in Tel-Aviv - it will take them about an hour to get there.

I dont think its about holy or not, but about them beeing able to express their culture freely. what oyiure saying is, that homosexuality is fine, but not in a place where people are against it. I can understand that they then feel they need to do it there, of all places. in any modern state everybody can have their own opinions, but the bottom line should be, that everybody can be free to be what they are.

What kind of reaction did the gays actually expect at ground zero of world religion? Given this fact, what kind of idiots would march with only the intention of pissing of swarms of fanatical religous zealots? I stop short of saying they got what they deserved, but just barely. I nice brawl would have sufficed.

My question is why weren't the scantily-clad homosexuals performing sexuals in the streets arrested? If I saw a bunch of half naked guys making out on my street and they refused to leave and stop threatening MY family you better believe I would defend my family and our community.

Do you honestly perceive two men hugging or kissing as a threat to your family?

If two men kiss, do they spontaneously combust into a cloud of anthrax that infects all those around them? Do their bodies heat up so rapidly that they explode in a nuclear blast roughly equal to that of a dirty bomb? Does a man wearing no shirt and sporting a shaved or waxed chest reflect the sun's UV rays at a focused pinpoint, thus making him a weapon and a threat to national security?

How are half naked guys making out a threat?

My question is why weren't the scantily-clad homosexuals performing sexuals in the streets arrested? If I saw a bunch of half naked guys making out on my street and they refused to leave and stop threatening MY family you better believe I would defend my family and our community.

I can just picture you reaching for the AK under the clear and present danger of a handful of partying queens. You wouldn't become the neighborhood hero, though, oh Contra-buddy-of-mine... You'de be quite disappointed with the outcome!

:p

M.

Is this thread turning into a cyber queer parade or what ? I'll be the protester . Somebdy needs to stop them before they reach the pet stores .

I dont think its about holy or not, .

I think it is exactly about this



.
but about them beeing able to express their culture freely. .
And about expressing it in appropriate place




.

what oyiure saying is, that homosexuality is fine, but not in a place where people are against it..

I mean homosexuality is fine everywhere, parading half naked is not.
And I really can't see this parad as something essential to the lifes of homosexuals..


.

I can understand that they then feel they need to do it there, of all places. .

Me too, and I think this is a mistaken approache.


.
in any modern state everybody can have their own opinions, but the bottom line should be, that everybody can be free to be what they are.

Again - to be what you are does not require parading halp naked on other people holly place.

Do you honestly perceive two men hugging or kissing as a threat to your family?


Some people just don't get it. :nonono: Explain to me how a large group of half naked homosexual extremists making out in front of my house and family is not a threat.

Somebdy needs to stop them before they reach the pet stores .

LOL! Good one! :rofl:

Some people just don't get it. :nonono: Explain to me how a large group of half naked homosexual extremists making out in front of my house and family is not a threat.

A "threat"? The only "threat" to anybody here is the threat posed by violent extremists such as yourself that feel they need to physically attack those they are bigoted against. :nonono:

My question is why weren't the scantily-clad homosexuals performing sexuals in the streets arrested? If I saw a bunch of half naked guys making out on my street and they refused to leave and stop threatening MY family you better believe I would defend my family and our community.
maybe because theyb didnt preform sexual acts?
:rolleyes:

I think it is exactly about this
And about expressing it in appropriate place.
I mean homosexuality is fine everywhere, parading half naked is not.
And I really can't see this parad as something essential to the lifes of homosexuals..
Me too, and I think this is a mistaken approache.

Again - to be what you are does not require parading halp naked on other people holly place.
they didnt do it in any synagogue or on the temple mount or ina mosque.
jerusalem is a city with holy sites, but its allso a normal city.

Some people just don't get it. :nonono: Explain to me how a large group of half naked homosexual extremists making out in front of my house and family is not a threat.explane how it is a threath.

they didnt do it in any synagogue or on the temple mount or ina mosque.
jerusalem is a city with holy sites, but its allso a normal city.

Jerusalem is a holly city.
Like Meca or Vatican.

Anyway - behaviour like walking half naked in a place where it is not accepted is disrespect of people in this place.
This is not a way to gain respect.

or Vatican.

more like rome as a whole.
Anyway - behaviour like walking half naked in a place where it is not accepted is disrespect of people in this place. its a provocation, yes. sometimes thats nessesairy.when women took off their bra's in the 60's it was an outrage as well.

.
.when women took off their bra's in the 60's it was an outrage as well.

And this is something that is used to ridicule the femist movement till now.
Think about what image of gays such parad is creating in conservative place with little knowledge of the issue - they are percieved as provocative wild frieks.
Do you think such a view will help some conservatively raised gay person whathing them to accept more their homosexuality?
I would say - on the contrary.
I see this as counterproductive kund of provocation.

And this is something that is used to ridicule the femist movement till now.
Think about what image of gays such parad is creating in conservative place with little knowledge of the issue - they are percieved as provocative wild frieks.
Do you think such a view will help some conservatively raised gay person whathing them to accept more their homosexuality?
I would say - on the contrary.
I see this as counterproductive kund of provocation. it isnt counter productive.
yea feminists still are portraid like that, but normal women arent, and they did get their rights because of those feminists. it started discussions.
same with gays, people will get angry, and discussion about gays is started. it will even be easyer for people to accept normal gay people after that.
its the same with van Gogh who made a provocative movie about violence against women in islam. the muslim world was outraged, he even got killed, but the subject is open for discussion, and wasnt before.

it isnt counter productive.
yea feminists still are portraid like that, but normal women arent, and they did get their rights because of those feminists. it started discussions.
same with gays, people will get angry, and discussion about gays is started. it will even be easyer for people to accept normal gay people after that.
its the same with van Gogh who made a provocative movie about violence against women in islam. the muslim world was outraged, he even got killed, but the subject is open for discussion, and wasnt before.

Woman got rights because of feminist movement, but this bra business WAS ridicolous.
And you are forgetting that's gays situation is relatively good in Israel, they are getting more and more rights using the court of law.
And have for years a parad in Tel-Aviv.
The parad is not a way to get rights, and it is not needed to open the subject.
Even in conservative/religious communities this subject is starting to be disscussed.
The gays in those communities are going with this very slowly and carefully - but are promoting the subject when trying to avoid too much conflict with their communities. This parad in Jerusalem will only make it more hard for them.

it isnt counter productive.
yea feminists still are portraid like that, but normal women arent, and they did get their rights because of those feminists. it started discussions.
same with gays, people will get angry, and discussion about gays is started. it will even be easyer for people to accept normal gay people after that.
its the same with van Gogh who made a provocative movie about violence against women in islam. the muslim world was outraged, he even got killed, but the subject is open for discussion, and wasnt before.


There is such a thing as having respect for other traditions and beliefs. To gain acceptance in a community, one doesn't necessarily have to symbolically overthrow that community. To me, this act could harden already bad sentiment, and potentially sway some with maybe moderate sentiments.

Just because you feel those who oppose you are unreasonable, it's no justificiation to behave unreasonably yourself.

Jerusalem is a holly city.
Like Meca or Vatican.

Anyway - behaviour like walking half naked in a place where it is not accepted is disrespect of people in this place.
This is not a way to gain respect.



I say they are filthy cowards who I would like to see go to mecca or medina and try this ! You would'nt even be able to find a left over enema bottle, much less a piece of one of them . Why don't they go to a muslem place to blasphem ? You never hear of them in middle-eastern countrys .

I say they are filthy cowards who I would like to see go to mecca or medina and try this ! You would'nt even be able to find a left over enema bottle, much less a piece of one of them . Why don't they go to a muslem place to blasphem ? You never hear of them in middle-eastern countrys .


Gee wouldn't it be nice if we never heard of them here, either? Guess we'll have to get us some of them enlightened social policies of them middle eastern countries over here in the US. That oughta do it...

Gee wouldn't it be nice if we never heard of them here, either? Guess we'll have to get us some of them enlightened social policies of them middle eastern countries over here in the US. That oughta do it...


So we have to stoop to the lowest forms of human nature or we have to go back 5000 yr.s ? What a choice . Theres a good book with a cure for people who think like this . Liberalism is a Mental Dis-order, [I think is name ].

So we have to stoop to the lowest forms of human nature or we have to go back 5000 yr.s ? What a choice . Theres a good book with a cure for people who think like this . Liberalism is a Mental Dis-order, [I think is name ].

Exactly... :bang:

I'm sure that's a reasoned and thoughtful tome... Who's that by, the author of "How to Talk to Liberals (if you have to)" Ann Coulter? Lump her in with Michael Moore... Bringing America back to the middle, by killin' off everyone else! :bang:

Exactly... :bang:

I'm sure that's a reasoned and thoughtful tome... Who's that by, the author of "How to Talk to Liberals (if you have to)" Ann Coulter? Lump her in with Michael Moore... Bringing America back to the middle, by killin' off everyone else! :bang:


Not kill anyone ! Just liberate you . No its by Micheal Savage . Most hated radio host by liberals I know. But then never speak words of wisdom to a fool,' they will hate you for it '. :confused:

Not kill anyone ! Just liberate you . No its by Micheal Savage . Most hated radio host by liberals I know. But then never speak words of wisdom to a fool,' they will hate you for it '. :confused:


Hate to break it to ya, but I'm not a liberal... I'm one of those "radical" centrists... Of course, to you, who seems just to the right of Pol Pot, I'm a raging lefty radical, I suppose...

Savage, Coulter, Michael Moore, Franken... these people are all cut from the same cloth...

I say they are filthy cowards who I would like to see go to mecca or medina and try this ! You would'nt even be able to find a left over enema bottle, much less a piece of one of them .

Thank god Jerusalem is not such kind of holly place!

this act could harden already bad sentiment, and potentially sway some with maybe moderate sentiments.

.

Exactly.

Woman got rights because of feminist movement, but this bra business WAS ridicolous.
And you are forgetting that's gays situation is relatively good in Israel, they are getting more and more rights using the court of law.
And have for years a parad in Tel-Aviv.
The parad is not a way to get rights, and it is not needed to open the subject.
Even in conservative/religious communities this subject is starting to be disscussed.
The gays in those communities are going with this very slowly and carefully - but are promoting the subject when trying to avoid too much conflict with their communities. This parad in Jerusalem will only make it more hard for them.sounds like their former efforts do pay off. so I dont see the problem. if a religous city like jerusalem is a no-show earea for gays, then its only more important to do it there.

There is such a thing as having respect for other traditions and beliefs. To gain acceptance in a community, one doesn't necessarily have to symbolically overthrow that community. To me, this act could harden already bad sentiment, and potentially sway some with maybe moderate sentiments.

Just because you feel those who oppose you are unreasonable, it's no justificiation to behave unreasonably yourself. its not about the sentiments of soem, but about the general idea of acceptence, which can only come if people are confronted with it. ofcourse they dont like it, they are against it. but all past efforts for acceptence show that if they continue to manifest in teh open, that their situation improves, simply because peopel will be less shocked a next time.

I say they are filthy cowards who I would like to see go to mecca or medina and try this ! You would'nt even be able to find a left over enema bottle, much less a piece of one of them . Why don't they go to a muslem place to blasphem ? You never hear of them in middle-eastern countrys . becasue anti gayness is much worse there. their fight for acceptence cant even start there yet.

Thank god Jerusalem is not such kind of holly place! a hundred year ago it was.

sounds like their former efforts do pay off. so I dont see the problem. if a religous city like jerusalem is a no-show earea for gays, then its only more important to do it there.


My god, are you pretending not to understand?
Or you really think that gays by their nature are not capable of dressing modestly and behaving in a way that respects other people feelings?

That dancing half naked is the only way they can show their presence and promote their goals?

its not about the sentiments of soem, but about the general idea of acceptence, which can only come if people are confronted with it. ofcourse they dont like it, they are against it. but all past efforts for acceptence show that if they continue to manifest in teh open, that their situation improves, simply because peopel will be less shocked a next time.

Why the hell half naked?

You know - it's O.K. to criticise something gay movement does.
Like offending the deep feelings of other people.
It will not make you a homophobic anti-gay bigot, you know.

sounds like their former efforts do pay off. so I dont see the problem. if a religous city like jerusalem is a no-show earea for gays, then its only more important to do it there.

What's payd off is their legal battles, not the parad.

coral, Im not gay, and they arem, and they choose to do it like this. its their fight, not mine.
and Im sure they understand the consequenses of what they do. therefore I can only assume that they do it on purpuse.
I understand what youre saying, you think that religous beliefs are more important then naked gays. they dont. and I kind of agree with that. religon is too often used as an excuse to condemn homosexuality. and I dont ahev a problem with sirring up things to create some progress.
if these religous people would have it their way, homosexuality would be forbidden, seen as a mental disorder, etc. Im glad the major of jerusalem understands that you cant forbid a group of people in society the right to have an even in a city.

What's payd off is their legal battles, not the parad. both. just as the bra thing, had a role in womens liberation. maybe not so much for their rights, but it gave women the corrage to be strongt, and not care so much about peopel who tried to keep them down.
a gay pride parade gives gays hope and pride about what they are. its a happy event, coral.

if these religous people would have it their way, homosexuality would be forbidden, seen as a mental disorder, etc.

So this is a reason delivertly offend their feelings?

.
a gay pride parade gives gays hope and pride about what they are. its a happy event, coral.

Very nice. I agree. They can continue to have it in Tel-Aviv, where it IS a happy event.

both. just as the bra thing, had a role in womens liberation. maybe not so much for their rights, but it gave women the corrage to be strongt, and not care so much about peopel who tried to keep them down.
a gay pride parade gives gays hope and pride about what they are. its a happy event, coral.

Bra is a good thing.
Try to be a woman that do sports and is havy equipped, like me. :)
I happy they didn't suceed on this issue.

I understand what youre saying, you think that religous beliefs are more important then naked gays.

I think that people, gays or no gays, are not gaining respect by walking naked in places where such behaviour is not accepted.

Bra is a good thing.
Try to be a woman that do sports and is havy equipped, like me. :)
I happy they didn't suceed on this issue.try wearing a corset, as they did back then. it was about women beeing free to not wear any if they felt like that, and not beeing forced to wear one that mutulates your body.

So this is a reason delivertly offend their feelings? its a protest, I guess.

try wearing a corset, as they did back then. it was about women beeing free to not wear any if they felt like that, and not beeing forced to wear one that mutulates your body.

O.K. maybe you have a point.

its a protest, I guess.

Than can protest in other way, and define exactly what they are protesting against.

I think that people, gays or no gays, are not gaining respect by walking naked in places where such behaviour is not accepted. well these gays feel its outragous that they are not accepted there. I kind of agree with that. maybe its because I live in holland, where acceptence is much ahead of this. one of our largest churches has just openly accepted homosexuality. inn a poll last week, 80% of all dutch were worried about a increase of attacks on gay people we have here now (done by young drunk idiots) gays can marry and adopt children here. if a pastor or imam or priest calls homosexuality an illness, he risks a police visit.

well these gays feel its outragous that they are not accepted there. .

It is kind of interesting argument - they do this parad because they feel not accepted, which make then more not accepted.
So should they - or should not - to make a parad where they are accepted?
If they should - your argument about having the parad there because they are not accepted there - means nothing.

You ask me - plain stubborness and willingness "to have their way".

And interesting how the parad is all the times turning form "provocation" and "angry protest" to "happy event" and vise versa for the convinience of your arguments.

I think it is exactly about this



.
And about expressing it in appropriate place




.

I mean homosexuality is fine everywhere, parading half naked is not.
And I really can't see this parad as something essential to the lifes of homosexuals..


.

Me too, and I think this is a mistaken approache.


.

Again - to be what you are does not require parading halp naked on other people holly place.

I'm as pro-Israeli as they come,but I hope you not not excusing this unrprovoked violecne.


Some people just don't get it.


It seems to me that it's social conservatives who don't get it.

Jerusalem is a holly city.
Like Meca or Vatican.

Anyway - behaviour like walking half naked in a place where it is not accepted is disrespect of people in this place.
This is not a way to gain respect.

This still does not excuse the violence.

Very nice. I agree. They can continue to have it in Tel-Aviv, where it IS a happy event.

That's like Southern [U.S.] whites saying blacks could move up North if they didn't like the South.


Bra is a good thing.


Trying to unhook one can be aggravating . ;)

I'm as pro-Israeli as they come,but I hope you not not excusing this unrprovoked violecne.



It was kind of provoked, but that the stubing is wrong - goes without saying.

This still does not excuse the violence.


Of cource it doesn't - but this is not my point.

That's like Southern [U.S.] whites saying blacks could move up North if they didn't like the South.


I"l repeat - I'm not saying gays should not live in Jerualem or get equal rigths there - I'm saying they should not have the parad there (and nobody should have such parad there) - Tel-Aviv is only hour away.

Trying to unhook one can be aggravating . ;)

I really don't think that that's what feminists had in mind :)

As disgusting as the religious fanatic is... it's even more pathetic to find that people actually defend him..

makes me sick.
-michele
:not:

well these gays feel its outragous that they are not accepted there. I kind of agree with that. maybe its because I live in holland, where acceptence is much ahead of this. one of our largest churches has just openly accepted homosexuality. inn a poll last week, 80% of all dutch were worried about a increase of attacks on gay people we have here now (done by young drunk idiots) gays can marry and adopt children here. if a pastor or imam or priest calls homosexuality an illness, he risks a police visit.

The Thought Police. That is beyond disturbing, that is just downright evil.

It is kind of interesting argument - they do this parad because they feel not accepted, which make then more not accepted.
So should they - or should not - to make a parad where they are accepted?
If they should - your argument about having the parad there because they are not accepted there - means nothing.

You ask me - plain stubborness and willingness "to have their way".

And interesting how the parad is all the times turning form "provocation" and "angry protest" to "happy event" and vise versa for the convinience of your arguments.it can be both, its happy becasue they dont have a march packing baseball bats to beat up people, and its a protest too, but only against those who arent tolerant of tehir happyness.
I dont get your attitude that they should simply accept that they are not wanted there, and have it somewhere else. if tehres a protest against the ukraine gouv., and that gouv. doesnt accept opposition, should the protesters then think well , lets not do it then? nothing ever chnages like that. youre completely overlooking that its their simple right to have a parade like that, it wasnt illegal, your high court ruled that they could.

The Thought Police. That is beyond disturbing, that is just downright evil.
he can think whatever he wants, if he starts preaching it he is generating hate, and discriminating gays. sorry, but we have laws to protect minorities.

try wearing a corset, as they did back then. it was about women beeing free to not wear any if they felt like that, and not beeing forced to wear one that mutulates your body.
"Horses for courses" Oki, which means that people choose what they want to do. In the 1940s, women like my mother were fairly free to wear what they chose, already.

To me, feminism (the liberation of women) isn't about superficial things,or sexual things only like abortion/lesbian rights, it's about equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunity for study etc.

. if a pastor or imam or priest calls homosexuality an illness, he risks a police visit.
Which, in my opinion is terrible. Pastors and such, have a right to their beliefs, and they are not hurting anyone thereby.

I dont get your attitude that they should simply accept that they are not wanted there, and have it somewhere else. if tehres a protest against the ukraine gouv., and that gouv. doesnt accept opposition, should the protesters then think well , lets not do it then?

Are you insisting in not understanding me?
Did I ever say that they should not protest in Jerusalem?
They can make a protest demonstration - the usual kind - fully dressed, carying plakats and screaming slogans.
Every one has a right to demostrate.
I'm talking in doing this in a way that is offending people not because of their stand, but because of the behaviour that is not accepted there.

Which, in my opinion is terrible. Pastors and such, have a right to their beliefs, and they are not hurting anyone thereby.
I heard that in Sweden a pastor was accused of hate crime for equating homosexuality with pedophilia. Fortunately for him, he won the appeal, after being convicted by the first instance.

youre completely overlooking that its their simple right to have a parade like that, it wasnt illegal, your high court ruled that they could.

Not everything that is legal is also the right thing to do.

well these gays feel its outragous that they are not accepted there. I kind of agree with that. maybe its because I live in holland, where acceptence is much ahead of this. one of our largest churches has just openly accepted homosexuality. inn a poll last week, 80% of all dutch were worried about a increase of attacks on gay people we have here now (done by young drunk idiots) gays can marry and adopt children here. if a pastor or imam or priest calls homosexuality an illness, he risks a police visit.

Ireally like to see an imam arrested for it.
Or for obusing women rights...

Well, coral, for once we seem to agree. The fact they had a parade is acceptable (I can't believe I'm saying this), but choosing Jerusalem as the place to do it, kit was a deliberate mockery of the city's cultural significance.

. The fact they had a parade is acceptable (I can't believe I'm saying this),

Why can't you believe you are saying this?

As disgusting as the religious fanatic is... it's even more pathetic to find that people actually defend him..

makes me sick.
-michele
:not:

And those people are?

Why can't you believe you are saying this?
Because at a very personal level I don't like the idea of having gays waiving their "tresures" in public places. I am what some could call homophobic.

Because at a very personal level I don't like the idea of having gays waiving their "tresures" in public places. I am what some could call homophobic.
I am as well, and I am glad to have a chance to say so... But that doesn't mean I accept other forms of discrimination as acceptable.

"Horses for courses" Oki, which means that people choose what they want to do. In the 1940s, women like my mother were fairly free to wear what they chose, already.

To me, feminism (the liberation of women) isn't about superficial things,or sexual things only like abortion/lesbian rights, it's about equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunity for study etc. its about all those things, and takes longer then one generation.
Which, in my opinion is terrible. Pastors and such, have a right to their beliefs, and they are not hurting anyone thereby. they are influential people, and have a responcibility accordingly. saying that homosexuality is an illness, is a blatent lie.

Are you insisting in not understanding me?
Did I ever say that they should not protest in Jerusalem?
They can make a protest demonstration - the usual kind - fully dressed, carying plakats and screaming slogans.
Every one has a right to demostrate.
I'm talking in doing this in a way that is offending people not because of their stand, but because of the behaviour that is not accepted there. well okay I understand, I guess I just dont agree.

they are influential people, and have a responcibility accordingly. saying that homosexuality is an illness, is a blatent lie.

They have a responsibility to promote only the right ideas and can be arrested for promoting the wrong ones, I see.
Now the only question left is who is deciding what ideas are right and what are wrong...

he can think whatever he wants, if he starts preaching it he is generating hate, and discriminating gays. sorry, but we have laws to protect minorities.

Hold on a sec. Let's put our thinking caps on. A person saying homosexuality is an illness does not automatically mean hate. (I'm not saying I agree with him or disagree, I'm just trying to clear up your illogic) If someone calls alcoholism or drug abuse an illness, does that mean they hate alcoholics or drug addicts? No!

Now, if he was saying, "I hate people who are gay and you should too!" that would be an entirely different story, and that would be un-Christian. Merely saying that homosexality is an illness does not automatically mean hate, and if he really is a christian, then i'm sure he understands that he is to love all people.... and loving a person does not necessarily mean accepting or condoning all their actions.

Also... I don't know what the laws are in your country, but in this country we have freedom of speech. (or at least, we're supposed to) A pastor stating that he think homosexuality is an illness is freedom of speech. If, as you said, in your country someone who says that will get a police visit, then you don't have much freedom of speech there. Only "approved" speech.

If, as you said, in your country someone who says that will get a police visit, then you don't have much freedom of speech there. Only "approved" speech.

Exactly.
But a LOT of freedom for "approved" speech.

BTW, I'm interested - do you think it's a good idea for gays to have such parad in muslim parts of Amsterdam?
All your expalnations for them doing it in Jerusalem applied here.

There is such a thing as having respect for other traditions and beliefs. .

So the Gays should respect people who refuse to show that respect back? Why?

Hugs

lilnymph

So the Gays should respect people who refuse to show that respect back? Why?

Hugs

lilnymph

Ha, the person who's opinion about this parad in Jerusalem I wanted to hear.
What is it?

So the Gays should respect people who refuse to show that respect back? Why?

Hugs

lilnymph

Don't know.
Not to get to their level?
Not to go into provocation against provocation spin?

Hold on a sec. Let's put our thinking caps on. A person saying homosexuality is an illness does not automatically mean hate. (I'm not saying I agree with him or disagree, I'm just trying to clear up your illogic) If someone calls alcoholism or drug abuse an illness, does that mean they hate alcoholics or drug addicts? No!

Now, if he was saying, "I hate people who are gay and you should too!" that would be an entirely different story, and that would be un-Christian. Merely saying that homosexality is an illness does not automatically mean hate, and if he really is a christian, then i'm sure he understands that he is to love all people.... and loving a person does not necessarily mean accepting or condoning all their actions.

Also... I don't know what the laws are in your country, but in this country we have freedom of speech. (or at least, we're supposed to) A pastor stating that he think homosexuality is an illness is freedom of speech. If, as you said, in your country someone who says that will get a police visit, then you don't have much freedom of speech there. Only "approved" speech.

just no freedom to spread hate in religous communities. our laws accept homosexuality as a normal state of beeing. this means that their righst are protected.
yes, our freedom of speech is limited when it comes to these kinds of things. strangely enough, the vast majority of dutch thinks this is a good thing.
we view the tolerance for hate speech in the US as something bad.

BTW, I'm interested - do you think it's a good idea for gays to have such parad in muslim parts of Amsterdam?
All your expalnations for them doing it in Jerusalem applied here.there are no muslim parts in amsterdam, though there are pasts where more muslims live then in other parts, and yes its a good idea, and nessesairy. we have the strange idea that freedom means that you can go anywhere and be yourself.

there are no muslim parts in amsterdam, though there are pasts where more muslims live then in other parts, and yes its a good idea, and nessesairy. we have the strange idea that freedom means that you can go anywhere and be yourself.

There are such in Hague, if I'm not mistakken.
Well, now we just must wait untill somebody will have the guts to do it.
And see if your court will allow.

Don't know.
Not to get to their level?
Not to go into provocation against provocation spin?

So we should just sit by and accept the abuse and lack of rights given to us? Just like women in the past should have jsut stood by and not stood up for their rights, not protested, burned bras, chained themselves to the gates of 10 downing street ect. Just like blacks should never have marched demanding rights, should never have protested against enforced seperation, never used "whites" doorways or parts of busses?

Strangely enough it gets quite tiresome eventually when you are constantly discriminated against. You get to the point where you just want to shout out and demand your rights. I am guessing this is the point that these people have got too.

hugs

lilnymph

It was kind of provoked, but that the stubing is wrong - goes without saying.

It was more than "wrong",it was a violent crime that should be condemned as such. :mad:

I"l repeat - I'm not saying gays should not live in Jerualem or get equal rigths there - I'm saying they should not have the parad there (and nobody should have such parad there) - Tel-Aviv is only hour away.

In other words "seperate but equal", "stay in your place",those attitudes do nothing but marginalize people and margainalztion is evil.

History shows that kind of Jim Crowism does not work.

I really don't think that that's what feminists had in mind :)

Evry feminist I know wears a bra.....and I have unhooked more than my share. ;)


As disgusting as the religious fanatic is... it's even more pathetic to find that people actually defend him..

makes me sick.
-michele
:not:

I agree.




that is just downright evil.

I'd say that subjugating and marginalizing people because of their sexual orentation is "dowright evil".

it can be both, its happy becasue they dont have a march packing baseball bats to beat up people, and its a protest too, but only against those who arent tolerant of tehir happyness.
I dont get your attitude that they should simply accept that they are not wanted there, and have it somewhere else. if tehres a protest against the ukraine gouv., and that gouv. doesnt accept opposition, should the protesters then think well , lets not do it then? nothing ever chnages like that. youre completely overlooking that its their simple right to have a parade like that, it wasnt illegal, your high court ruled that they could.

Let the gay pride people have their parade without being harmed,then let the Orthodox people have their parade without being harmed.

Marginalization of human beings is why I don't care for fundementalism in any faith.

he can think whatever he wants, if he starts preaching it he is generating hate, and discriminating gays. sorry, but we have laws to protect minorities.

It is evil to subjugate and marginalize any non-violent person.

Why can't the holier than thou people see that?

Are you insisting in not understanding me?
Did I ever say that they should not protest in Jerusalem?
They can make a protest demonstration - the usual kind - fully dressed, carying plakats and screaming slogans.
Every one has a right to demostrate.
I'm talking in doing this in a way that is offending people not because of their stand, but because of the behaviour that is not accepted there.

I don't care if anything is accepted or not,violence is wrong and should be codemned period.

Sadly,you are sounding like the Palestinian terrorist apologists that you and I have fought so much against.

Not everything that is legal is also the right thing to do.

If the gay pride people are not breaking laws then they are in the right.

Even if some were breaking laws the punishment still has the fit the crime and stabbing does fit any crimes that might have been committted.



but choosing Jerusalem as the place to do it, kit was a deliberate mockery of the city's cultural significance.


BFD,that still does not excuse violence. :mad:




A person saying homosexuality is an illness does not automatically mean hate.


No,it just means marginaliztion and subjugation. :mad:




A pastor stating that he think homosexuality is an illness is freedom of speech.


And I have the same freedom of speech to say he/she is a bigot.

So the Gays should respect people who refuse to show that respect back? Why?



Good question.


So we should just sit by and accept the abuse and lack of rights given to us? Just like women in the past should have jsut stood by and not stood up for their rights, not protested, burned bras, chained themselves to the gates of 10 downing street ect. Just like blacks should never have marched demanding rights, should never have protested against enforced seperation, never used "whites" doorways or parts of busses?

Strangely enough it gets quite tiresome eventually when you are constantly discriminated against. You get to the point where you just want to shout out and demand your rights. I am guessing this is the point that these people have got too.

hugs

lilnymph


Excellent post. :nice:

There are such in Hague, if I'm not mistakken.
Well, now we just must wait untill somebody will have the guts to do it.
And see if your court will allow. not anywhere, there are neighbourhoods where about 50% is immigrant (all kinds), thats just about as far as it goes here.
a no-go earea for gays would not be accepted here, Im pretty sure of that. we do have some problems now with young arabs that harress gays, but a poll showed that most of them dont agree with homosexuality but are tolerant of it.
we do have some parades that are banned, the ones done by nazis... and even they eventually get their parade somewhere. allthough I doubt theyd get it in one of those immigrant neighbourhoods...

its about all those things, and takes longer then one generation.
they are influential people, and have a responcibility accordingly. saying that homosexuality is an illness, is a blatent lie.
I agree about feminism taking more than one generation. In the 1980s, I was perpetually trying to get people around me to refer to women (i.e., females over 18) as women. Now, it's as if I and women of my generation, never bothered. The word is 'girl', just as it was in the '60s and '70s.
Regarding homosexuals, those who say (and believe) homosexuality is an illness outnumber those who don't. Pastors and priests have a responsibility to tell the truth as they see it. That they're threatened with imprisonment for doing so, is horrific!

there are no muslim parts in amsterdam, though there are pasts where more muslims live then in other parts, and yes its a good idea, and nessesairy. we have the strange idea that freedom means that you can go anywhere and be yourself.
No, you've just said that freedom is severely limited!
There's freedom only for approved points of view.

So we should just sit by and accept the abuse and lack of rights given to us? Just like women in the past should have jsut stood by and not stood up for their rights, not protested, burned bras, chained themselves to the gates of 10 downing street ect. Just like blacks should never have marched demanding rights, should never have protested against enforced seperation, never used "whites" doorways or parts of busses?

Strangely enough it gets quite tiresome eventually when you are constantly discriminated against. You get to the point where you just want to shout out and demand your rights. I am guessing this is the point that these people have got too.

hugs

lilnymph
Just one little point, lilnymph... I was a teenager at the time, so I know. No bras were burnt! (They were thrown in what was called a "Freedom Trash Can". A journalist present at that protest thought burning of bras made a better story.
(Just being pedantic. :) )

It was more than "wrong",it was a violent crime that should be condemned as such. :mad:


Did I ever said that it is not so in my eyes?
This is kind of clear - stabbing people is a crime that will be dealt by police and the court of law.

In other words "seperate but equal", "stay in your place",those attitudes do nothing but marginalize people and margainalztion is evil.

I'd say that subjugating and marginalizing people because of their sexual orentation is "dowright evil".


Sadly,you are sounding like the Palestinian terrorist apologists that you and I have fought so much against.

:

All that fuss, just because I think that people (gays, or not gays) should not walk half naked in a place where people that live there are dressing very modesty and hiding under cloth most of their bodies.

If the gay pride people are not breaking laws then they are in the right.


They have the legal right to do this, and this was not the right thing to do.

I would ask then, who were the attackers? Were they Jewish or Muslim or something else?

All that fuss, just because I think that people (gays, or not gays) should not walk half naked in a place where people that live there are dressing very modesty and hiding under cloth most of their bodies.

Just as people shouldnt be marginalized and denied rights. yet you are quite happy for that to continue because it doesn't affect you. Coral, you might like to think on a little quote from history.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Hugs

lilnymph

Just as people shouldnt be marginalized and denied rights. yet you are quite happy for that to continue because it doesn't affect you. Coral, you might like to think on a little quote from history.

You might want to re-read her post. She said "gays, or not gays". That isn't "marginalizing" anyone, she simply is saying that in certain areas (like the holiest site in the world) perhaps people strutting around half naked, thumbing their nose at everyone is not cool.

just no freedom to spread hate in religous communities. our laws accept homosexuality as a normal state of beeing. this means that their righst are protected.
yes, our freedom of speech is limited when it comes to these kinds of things. strangely enough, the vast majority of dutch thinks this is a good thing.
we view the tolerance for hate speech in the US as something bad.

It sounds like you didn't read what I posted. As I said (I'll repeat)... what exactly was he saying? If he was giving his honest opinion about something, that was not about hate at all, then should he have freedom of speech? Or in your country, is freedom of speech only for certain pre-approved, sanitized, "speech"? Are people not allowed to have a differing opinion in your country? Everyone must say the same things, and anything slightly different is a 'Thoughtcrime'?

Orwell was right.

No, you've just said that freedom is severely limited!
There's freedom only for approved points of view. youre turning it around, suggesting that a small number of ideas is accepted and teh rest of free thought is banned.
small numbers of intolerant and offensive/criminal expression is not allowed because it hurts others. your freedom allows anything, allso discrimination and hate. ours has limits, but protects the freedom of the discriminated and hated. its juts a different way of handelling things.

It sounds like you didn't read what I posted. As I said (I'll repeat)... what exactly was he saying? If he was giving his honest opinion about something, that was not about hate at all, then should he have freedom of speech? Or in your country, is freedom of speech only for certain pre-approved, sanitized, "speech"? Are people not allowed to have a differing opinion in your country? Everyone must say the same things, and anything slightly different is a 'Thoughtcrime'?

Orwell was right. weve had imams preaching that homosexuality is an illness. even one example where they preached that gays should be tossed of teh highest building.
ofcourse you can have your opinion. but you have to draw the line somewhere, just like you do, when you make a seperation between haing an opinion or inflicting hate. maybe you think its accepteble for a priest to tell the churchgoers about the illness they call homosexuality. overhere thats one step too far.
sorry but theres not that much difference. Im pretty sure you cant say anything you want in the US, in any situation.

weve had imams preaching that homosexuality is an illness. even one example where they preached that gays should be tossed of teh highest building.
ofcourse you can have your opinion. but you have to draw the line somewhere, just like you do, when you make a seperation between haing an opinion or inflicting hate. maybe you think its accepteble for a priest to tell the churchgoers about the illness they call homosexuality. overhere thats one step too far.
sorry but theres not that much difference. Im pretty sure you cant say anything you want in the US, in any situation.

No, we have rights and liberties in this country, including free speech rights. Except for "Merry Christmas", that is offensive to some. :|

Is the Bible outlawed in your country? I'm just wondering, because the bible doesn't fit your country's pre-approved, sanitized idea about homosexuality. The Bible says we are to love everyone, but it doesn't condone homosexual sex... It seems to me, all the christian pastors in the Netherlands could get a police visit, for not going along with the State's pre-approved speech on that one. Will the Bible be censored next over there? Just wondering! :shrug:


I just wanted to add... because this comment tells me that you still didn't catch what I said, twice...

but you have to draw the line somewhere, just like you do, when you make a seperation between haing an opinion or inflicting hate.

So I'll say it again (3 times now) what if the pastor was not at all, as you said, inflicting hate... in fact what if he was doing the opposite, but simply had a differering idea about homosexuality? Is he still, in your opinion, not entitled to say what he truly thinks?

Is the Bible outlawed in your country? I'm just wondering, because the bible doesn't fit your country's pre-approved, sanitized idea about homosexuality. The Bible says we are to love everyone, but it doesn't condone homosexual sex... It seems to me, all the christian pastors in the Netherlands could get a police visit, for not going along with the State's pre-approved speech on that one. Will the Bible be censored next over there? Just wondering! :shrug:


I dont think the bible sais anything about homosexuals. feel free to show me. the bible isnt outlawed at all. 75% of the dutch are religous. you just dont understand that our christian believes are less fundamentalist then the general christian in the US. there is hardly any opposition against gay marriage or against gay people. we believe everybodies freedom should be respected. you worry about iyoru freedom of speech, and we worry about our freedom to be ourselves. only tiny minorities of rightwing radicals and religous extremists here make an issue out of homosexuality, and most dutch see them for what they are. Im sure lots of people dont agree with beeing homosexual , or even see it as an illness or mental disorder, but they do have teh respect to let them be who they want to be, instead of wanting to inflict their idea on them and everybody else.
ammendment no.1 of our constitution saids that noone is to be discriminated against. this has to do with our history, my country started in an independence war, protestants against catholics. when the foreign rule was chased away, the protestants came into power, and to protect teh catholics and create an equal society for all, we have allways had strict rules against dicrimination. on top of that, ww2 showed ups what freedom to spread hate can lead to. po0pulism, propaganda, and hitler. our country suffered 5 years of occupation because noone did a thing about hitler who was freely expressing himself, thereby tricking a whole country into antisemitism. we have an open democracy, where any new party can win an election within 4 years time. in such a system iyou need to make rules on what can and cant be done within that democracy. in teh USA its diffferent, your democracy is very closed, and you need millions to get anything done, so radical groups have a much smaller possibility to win an election and take over.

I just wanted to add... because this comment tells me that you still didn't catch what I said, twice... explane it better then. ofcourse the bible wont be banned. its rediculous to even suggest that.

So I'll say it again (3 times now) what if the pastor was not at all, as you said, inflicting hate... in fact what if he was doing the opposite, but simply had a differering idea about homosexuality? Is he still, in your opinion, not entitled to say what he truly thinks? in my opinion, he can say whatever he wants. but homosexuals will be insulted, and feel discriminated against.

I didn't say stabing a gay is ok.

Just as people shouldnt be marginalized and denied rights. yet you are quite happy for that to continue because it doesn't affect you. Coral, you might like to think on a little quote from history.



Pastor Martin Niemöller

Hugs

lilnymph

The gay parad in Jerusalem does not affect me also.
I'm not religious, I'm voting for a party that's again religion getting more power in Israel, I'm pro equal rights for gays, I don't have problem with recognition of gay marriage, and in this case I'm defending the right of the other side, the side of my usual opponents, so to say, not to have their deepest feelings offended.
So your quote hardly applies here. Kind of the contrary.
And I think gays in Israel have real ways to make a difference, they won, I think, every legal battle they started, they having for years a parad in Tel-Aviv, that is welcomed by the city, so the "desperation" card is not working also.

I would ask then, who were the attackers? Were they Jewish or Muslim or something else?

Jewish, I believe.

I didn't say stabing a gay is ok.

Nobody did.
It is a good position to start an attack on our opinion from.
Makes are feel defensive (smilies not working again)

youre turning it around, suggesting that a small number of ideas is accepted and teh rest of free thought is banned.
small numbers of intolerant and offensive/criminal expression is not allowed because it hurts others.

Gay parad in Jerusalem hurts others, and you still support it.
So it is not about "hurts others", but about the "right" ideas.

Your missing my point. Having a parade isn't a right the gays want. The Parade is a way of shouting to the world that they are here, and that they WANT equal rights. It is a protest. By trying to stop the parade you are squashing the voice of these people, not supporting them in their stand for equal rights. I am sorry if people are offended by it, but they, and you, should be MORE offended by the marginalisation of gays and their lack of rights. And yet you want them to stay quiet, not make a fuss just so the majority who have all the rights the gays want dont get offened. So yes, the quote is fully applicable here.

Hugs

lilnymph

Your missing my point. Having a parade isn't a right the gays want. The Parade is a way of shouting to the world that they are here, and that they WANT equal rights. It is a protest. By trying to stop the parade you are squashing the voice of these people, not supporting them in their stand for equal rights. I am sorry if people are offended by it, but they, and you, should be MORE offended by the marginalisation of gays and their lack of rights. And yet you want them to stay quiet, not make a fuss just so the majority who have all the rights the gays want dont get offened. So yes, the quote is fully applicable here.

Hugs

lilnymph

Offending the feeling of religious people by parad is not the only way to fight for equal rights, actually it is not a way at all. There are many others - real ways.

I have a right to want egual rights for gays, AND to want religoius people not to be offended by gay parad, specialy when I really can't see what good hurting those feeling brings to anyone, including gays.

The majority is not offended by gay parad, and in Tel-Aviv many not gays are joining it. Religious minority is offended by the parad in Jerusalem, and I have full right to think that all minorities should be protected, not only gays.

I"m starting to think that your logic is - we are discriminated, so we have a right to hurt other people, because we can.
I really can't find any other explanation to your attempt to refer to a expectation from gays to avoid hurting other minority feeling, as some kind of offence to gays.

I am sorry if people are offended by it, but they, and you, should be MORE offended by the marginalisation of gays and their lack of rights.
lilnymph

I would not expect from a ultra-religious person, that is raised to avoid sex untill marriage, and to avoid every thougth about sex, because those are sin, that are covering their bodys in our heat not to arouse such thougths in other people, to concentrate on gays discrimination from all things, when a bunch of half dressed people is marshing in a place they consider holly.

And what the hell "marginalisation" of gays have to do with this.

No, the Logic is we are marginalised, and no one is doing anything about it. Therefore we have to shock people into noticing we are here and being discriminated against, to bring it to peoples attention, to show them we wont take it anymore. its the same as taking off bras in protest, sitting in the white section of a bus, chaining yourself to 10 downing street. All of those actions shocked and offended people at the time, but eventually they got people discussing the underlying issue, and now women and blacks have equal rights. Perhaps if gays had been given equal rights and not been marginalised when they where quiet this wouldn't have happened. but no one spoke up for them in that time, so now they have to fight, just as women, and black people fought.

Hugs

lilnymph

Gay parad in Jerusalem hurts others, and you still support it.
So it is not about "hurts others", but about the "right" ideas. no them not beeing able to have one in jerusalem would hurt them. why cant religous people simply be more tolerant and look the other way if they dont like it? the gays arent saying that these religous people cant practice their beliefs in jerusalem, are they? its those religous people saying they dont want gays there.

The majority is not offended by gay parad, and in Tel-Aviv many not gays are joining it. Religious minority is offended by the parad in Jerusalem, and I have full right to think that all minorities should be protected, not only gays.

what about religous people in tel aviv? should they go to jerusalem if they dont want to be offended by the gay parade there?

No, the Logic is we are marginalised, and no one is doing anything about it. Therefore we have to shock people into noticing we are here and being discriminated against, to bring it to peoples attention, to show them we wont take it anymore. its the same as taking off bras in protest, sitting in the white section of a bus, chaining yourself to 10 downing street. All of those actions shocked and offended people at the time, but eventually they got people discussing the underlying issue, and now women and blacks have equal rights. Perhaps if gays had been given equal rights and not been marginalised when they where quiet this wouldn't have happened. but no one spoke up for them in that time, so now they have to fight, just as women, and black people fought.

Hugs

lilnymph

You have here two point - one, that you think that provocation and offence is a way to ppomote gays goals I think that in this case it is counterproductive, but this is a matter of opinion.
The other is the paralels you are making, which are not corrct.
Blak people was sitting in the plces where they were not allowed,and the not discriminating part was allowed. They were executing their right to be equal.
The women decide not to were a part of cloth, that only they were supposed to wear, and the not discriminated part wasn't - doing the same.
Gays here are not executing a right, that the not discriminated part has, since if not gays will do such parade in Jerusalem for any reason, this will be also seen as not appropriate.
Nothing to do with equal rights.

what about religous people in tel aviv? should they go to jerusalem if they dont want to be offended by the gay parade there?

Ultra-religious peope usually don't live in the center of Tel-Aviv, since the athmosphere there is not suiting their way of life.

no them not beeing able to have one in jerusalem would hurt them. why cant religous people simply be more tolerant and look the other way if they dont like it? the gays arent saying that these religous people cant practice their beliefs in jerusalem, are they? its those religous people saying they dont want gays there.

Most of them did just that now and in the gay parad in Jerusalem a year ago, that went without incidents.
But their feelings still were offended.
Does not matter if religious people don't want gays in Jerusalem, gays have the same right to live there as anybody else, but they should, like everybody else, to respect the holiness of the place.

Your missing the point coral, because you haven't suffered discrimination and marginalization for yours. Don't dont understand the feelings that these people are feeling. The Parrels are valid, and there are many more, including the protest rallys. Gay people have tried years of being quiet about their lack of rights, and what have you done about it? nothing. Perhaps if people are offended they might start looking into the problem. After all they only have themselves to blaime, they could have given gay people equal rights years ago, and stopped them being marginalized, and this would never have happened. Stop blaming the victims and look to the cause.

hugs

lilnymph

Your missing the point coral, because you haven't suffered discrimination and marginalization for yours. Don't dont understand the feelings that these people are feeling. The Parrels are valid, and there are many more, including the protest rallys. Gay people have tried years of being quiet about their lack of rights, and what have you done about it? nothing. Perhaps if people are offended they might start looking into the problem. After all they only have themselves to blaime, they could have given gay people equal rights years ago, and stopped them being marginalized, and this would never have happened. Stop blaming the victims and look to the cause.

hugs

lilnymph

Should a protest involve walking half naked in a holly city?
Aren't there many other ways of protests, that would not hurt so much the feeling of religious people?

I'm not missing your point, which is - we are discriminated against - we have the right to protest in any form we choose, no matter if it is offensive to others - I disagree with it.

Gay people have tried years of being quiet about their lack of rights, and what have you done about it? nothing.
lilnymph

Gays in Israel have many achievements, including the fact that my dauther and her friends see a gay couple in their school as nothing but natural.
I suppose you understand that it wasn't like that when I was in her age.
Gays are winning very significant legal battles, there is no problem for an army officer to be gay anymore, and if he dies, his spouse has a right for an army pension.
So to say that gays without parad in Jerusalem got nowhere, even if there still is a long way to go, is simply not true.

Regarding homosexuals, those who say (and believe) homosexuality is an illness outnumber those who don't.


Even if you are right [and I'm not sure about that] so what?

As Isben wrote in "An Enemy Of The People" :The majority is the majority,it isn't right until it does right".

Just one little point, lilnymph... I was a teenager at the time,


So was I [roughly] .



so I know. No bras were burnt! (They were thrown in what was called a "Freedom Trash Can". A journalist present at that protest thought burning of bras made a better story.
(Just being pedantic. :) )


You are right,they were going to be burned but NOW couldn't get a burning permit.

When we say "Bra Burners" we are saying it as cultural symbolism rather than histroical fact.


All that fuss, just because I think that people (gays, or not gays) should not walk half naked in a place where people that live there are dressing very modesty and hiding under cloth most of their bodies.

That is not the issue,the issue is the assualt.



I would ask then, who were the attackers? Were they Jewish or Muslim or something else?

My point is it doesn't matter who the attackers or the attacked are,it is wrong to violently attack anybody,anything else is not in play as far as I'm concerned.

By the way Crim,gays are treated better in Isreal than they are in most nations including most of the U.S. [way better than they are treated in Palestinian areas or would be treated in a Palestinian state].

The overwleming majority of Jews worldwide [and I think in Isreal] are Reform,Reform Judasim gives committment ceremonies for same-sex couples and does legally marry same-sex couples in locales that allow same-sex marriage.

Roman Catholicism in all locales does not allow same-sex marriage [in fact the late Pope John Paul II called same-sex marriage "evil" which I think was a very bigoted thing for an otherwise enlightend man to do] and has as hompohobic a history as almost any faith can get.

I don't mean to be hard on you or your faith and values Crim,I'm just tired of you endlessly bashing Israeli Jews.



You might want to re-read her post. She said "gays, or not gays". That isn't "marginalizing" anyone, she simply is saying that in certain areas (like the holiest site in the world) perhaps people strutting around half naked, thumbing their nose at everyone is not cool.

Then arrest them for indecent exposure [something that I would support],but don't violently assualt people for any reason and don't make excuses for the attackers.




If he was giving his honest opinion about something, [I]that was not about hate at all,


In my honest opinion ,it was about hate.



Orwell was right.

Orwell was right about "newspeak",the thing is it's the conservatvies who are guilty of "newspeak".




So I'll say it again (3 times now) what if the pastor was not at all, as you said, inflicting hate...


I'd say that "inflicting hate" is probably a matter of opinion and I'd expect an evangelical/fundementalist to have differing opinion than a open-minded person.

I didn't say stabing a gay is ok.

No,you just insinuated it.

The gay parad in Jerusalem does not affect me also.
I'm not religious, I'm voting for a party that's again religion getting more power in Israel, I'm pro equal rights for gays, I don't have problem with recognition of gay marriage, and in this case I'm defending the right of the other side, the side of my usual opponents, so to say, not to have their deepest feelings offended.
So your quote hardly applies here. Kind of the contrary.
And I think gays in Israel have real ways to make a difference, they won, I think, every legal battle they started, they having for years a parad in Tel-Aviv, that is welcomed by the city, so the "desperation" card is not working also.

One again,who marched and who was offended is not the issue[not the issue at all],the issue is a violent crime occured and some people here are kissing the colective ass of the people who committed the violence and insinuating the victims of this violent crime got what was coming to them. :mad:

Your missing my point. Having a parade isn't a right the gays want. The Parade is a way of shouting to the world that they are here, and that they WANT equal rights. It is a protest. By trying to stop the parade you are squashing the voice of these people, not supporting them in their stand for equal rights. I am sorry if people are offended by it, but they, and you, should be MORE offended by the marginalisation of gays and their lack of rights. And yet you want them to stay quiet, not make a fuss just so the majority who have all the rights the gays want dont get offened. So yes, the quote is fully applicable here.

Hugs

lilnymph

Sadly,I don't think these people who need enlightenment will ever be englightend. :(

One again,who marched and who was offended is not the issue[not the issue at all],the issue is a violent crime occured and some people here are kissing the colective ass of the people who committed the violence and insinuating the victims of this violent crime got what was coming to them. :mad:
:(

I think that you got this wrong - the reason we are not talking about the crime is because this issue is clear to every one who is on this thread - it is a crime, that should and will be treated as such, and everybody agrees with it.

The parad issue is not like that.

youre turning it around, suggesting that a small number of ideas is accepted and teh rest of free thought is banned.
small numbers of intolerant and offensive/criminal expression is not allowed because it hurts others. your freedom allows anything, allso discrimination and hate. ours has limits, but protects the freedom of the discriminated and hated. its juts a different way of handelling things.
The point is, that there is nothing criminal about the views any pastor or priest would put forward regarding homosexuality. There are people who will never believe that it is an acceptable or superior way of life. Saying so is not (or should not be) a criminal offence. Merely expressing distaste does not "hurt" anyone!

The point is, that there is nothing criminal about the views any pastor or priest would put forward regarding homosexuality. There are people who will never believe that it is an acceptable or superior way of life. Saying so is not (or should not be) a criminal offence. Merely expressing distaste does not "hurt" anyone!
noone has to agree with homosexuality or accept it as superiour, or equal.
claiming that its an illness is a blatant lie.

noone has to agree with homosexuality or accept it as superiour, or equal.
claiming that its an illness is a blatant lie.
You may disagree, Oki, but you may not call claiming that homosexuality is an illness, "a lie". It is not a lie, which would imply that I (or anyone else) knew otherwise - and we do not!

You may disagree, Oki, but you may not call claiming that homosexuality is an illness, "a lie". It is not a lie, which would imply that I (or anyone else) knew otherwise - and we do not!


And if a lie, why a lie should be a criminal act?

noone has to agree with homosexuality or accept it as superiour, or equal.
claiming that its an illness is a blatant lie.

Well, I'm gay, and I don't know whether I'd take it off the "illness" list. But there are plenty of benign illnesses, and a government has no interest in stifling the gay populace's freedoms in order to...de-gay-ify its country, or whatever interest they may advance.

No individual has to accept or agree with homosexuality at all. People are free to feel however they feel about anyone. People are free to hate or not accept blacks, Jews, gays, whites, men, women, midgets, anyone. But it is an illegitimate use of governmental power in a democracy to enshrine that hate or non-acceptance in law by saying "you cannot protest" or "you can't conduct sodomy in the privacy of your home" or "you can't vote because you're black," etc. etc.

You may disagree, Oki, but you may not call claiming that homosexuality is an illness, "a lie". It is not a lie, which would imply that I (or anyone else) knew otherwise - and we do not!

Well hell, you can qualify anything you want as an illness. Being left-handed is out of the norm; it's an illness. Red hair is out of the norm; it's an illness. What makes traditionally accepted "illnesses" more clear is the (mostly) clear physical detriment of their sufferers. Cystic fibrosis, cancer, diabetes, psoriasis...these are illnesses. They do clear harm to sufferers' lives compared to non-sufferers.

Depression, attention deficit disorder, etc...these are a little less clear. One person may call it one thing, and another may call it another. I think homosexuality falls into this category. The point is that whatever you want to call it--illness, abnormality, a-okay, c*ck fever--has no bearing on what government policy toward it should be. It's just semantics. You wouldn't say "No, you cancer patients can't march here." "No, you ADD kids can't march here." It's equally as illogical to tell gays they can't march even if it's in the "illness" category.

And personally, I'm doing just fine living with my c*ck fever.

It's equally as illogical to tell gays they can't march even if it's in the "illness" category.

.

Should they march dressed in a way that is considered indecent by local community in a holly city?

Well, I'm gay, and I don't know whether I'd take it off the "illness" list. But there are plenty of benign illnesses, and a government has no interest in stifling the gay populace's freedoms in order to...de-gay-ify its country, or whatever interest they may advance.

No individual has to accept or agree with homosexuality at all. People are free to feel however they feel about anyone. People are free to hate or not accept blacks, Jews, gays, whites, men, women, midgets, anyone. But it is an illegitimate use of governmental power in a democracy to enshrine that hate or non-acceptance in law by saying "you cannot protest" or "you can't conduct sodomy in the privacy of your home" or "you can't vote because you're black," etc. etc.

As I see it, people have a right not to like somebody and to avoid tight connections with some group.
They don't have a right to hurt some group and to deny this group equal opporunities.
It looks like there is a mix between those two things.

Should they march dressed in a way that is considered indecent by local community in a holly city?

Well, I don't personally like public indecency laws that say you can't stroll around exactly as you entered your waking life...

...BUT that's not an argument I'm interested in pursuing because it's a) an impossible battle with the stigmas in people's minds and b) irrelevant to the issue of whether gays should be allowed to march.

If there are public indecency laws on the books, prosecute the offenders. If some of them are drunk and disorderly, punish them. But to say a group of gays cannot march is illegitimate.

And as an aside, as a gay man, I've never been in such a march, and I find them utterly ridiculous.

As I see it, people have a right not to like somebody and to avoid tight connections with some group.
They don't have a right to hurt some group and to deny this group equal opporunities.

Precisely.

Well hell, you can qualify anything you want as an illness. Being left-handed is out of the norm; it's an illness. Red hair is out of the norm; it's an illness. What makes traditionally accepted "illnesses" more clear is the (mostly) clear physical detriment of their sufferers. Cystic fibrosis, cancer, diabetes, psoriasis...these are illnesses. They do clear harm to sufferers' lives compared to non-sufferers.
Funnily enough, this came up in my studies - for special needs teaching. Left-handedness can be (but isn't always) associated with some types of brain-injury - though red hair, which runs in my family, is rare but not an illness (as I presume you knew.)

Funnily enough, this came up in my studies - for special needs teaching. Left-handedness can be (but isn't always) associated with some types of brain-injury - though red hair, which runs in my family, is rare but not an illness (as I presume you knew.)


Are you going to tolerate yourself into insanity ? This person is obviously in conflict with himself . Whats your excuse ? :confused:

Well, I don't personally like public indecency laws that say you can't stroll around exactly as you entered your waking life...

...BUT that's not an argument I'm interested in pursuing because it's a) an impossible battle with the stigmas in people's minds and b) irrelevant to the issue of whether gays should be allowed to march.

If there are public indecency laws on the books, prosecute the offenders. If some of them are drunk and disorderly, punish them. But to say a group of gays cannot march is illegitimate.

And as an aside, as a gay man, I've never been in such a march, and I find them utterly ridiculous.


You do know how mixed up you are, right ? The fact is theres help ifyou just seek it . To think that because your different"pervert" is reason for society to not only accept you ,but also to come down to your lows . I don't care what you do in private, but someday things may change and someone may stop the madness of tolerence and child abuse .

Are you going to tolerate yourself into insanity ? This person is obviously in conflict with himself . Whats your excuse ?

What?

You do know how mixed up you are, right ? The fact is theres help ifyou just seek it . To think that because your different"pervert" is reason for society to not only accept you ,but also to come down to your lows . I don't care what you do in private, but someday things may change and someone may stop the madness of tolerence and child abuse .

I'm...no more mixed up than you average Joe, I imagine.

Regarding "help": a) I personally don't want it, though I don't wholly discard the idea that some sort of lifestyle adjustment is possible for some people. b) If I did want it, it would not be effective. My erections occur over hot men, not women. Been that way since day one. c) All this "help" involves Jesus. Pardon my not mincing words, but all religion is bull. Come to me when your help involves genetics.

I'm...no more mixed up than you average Joe, I imagine.

Regarding "help": a) I personally don't want it, though I don't wholly discard the idea that some sort of lifestyle adjustment is possible for some people. b) If I did want it, it would not be effective. My erections occur over hot men, not women. Been that way since day one. c) All this "help" involves Jesus. Pardon my not mincing words, but all religion is bull. Come to me when your help involves genetics.



I hope your not chained to this for life. Most queers are not really queers, they just got up with wrong people who convinced them they were .

Some people are attracted to kids too, But it's evil too .

The worse sociey gets ,the more it proves the Bible is factual and only book that has predicted mans present and future . Not one person my age wouldv'e ever beleived America would have queers prancing in street ,much less with little chilren in tow .

Oh yeah, I forgot to address that child abuse mention. Which....just...what?

I hope your not chained to this for life. Most queers are not really queers, they just got up with wrong people who convinced them they were .

Well, "most" means 51%. When you're prepared to present me with evidence of this, go ahead. Although it still doesn't matter to me how people got to be gay in what proportion. Though even if it matters to you, what to do with that "minority" who "really are queers"?

Some people are attracted to kids too, But it's evil too .

Having sex with children is despicable and deplorable, because children are not mature, willing participants. You can think being gay (or acting on gay impulses) is wrong, but the argument I'm concerned with his whether you want the government to reflect this thinking. We all want it to punish pedophilia because there is a clear, legitimate interest in protecting those who cannot protect themselves. It's a completely different story when two consenting adults are involved.

The government should not be anti-gay, pro-gay, anti-straight, or pro-straight. It should build our roads and schools and support our military. That's what I'm saying. If you want to get into an argument on whether it's "wrong" or not to be gay (or act on gay impulses), that's a discussion I'm not interested in having with you because, frankly, we are coming from two completely irreconcilable viewpoints. To me, the Bible is as useful as a kid's scribbled gibberish.

The worse sociey gets ,the more it proves the Bible is factual and only book that has predicted mans present and future . Not one person my age wouldv'e ever beleived America would have queers prancing in street ,much less with little chilren in tow .

And again, you can hate it all you want, but voters (via the government) don't have the right to tell gays they cannot freely assemble and march.

Are you going to tolerate yourself into insanity ? This person is obviously in conflict with himself . Whats your excuse ? :confused:
P&M, you're making as little sense as usual. LateGreat is responsible for himself, and I won't tell him how he should be (I think he knows what I think, but I don't have the right to tell him).

PS, yeah, I'm chained to it for life. You ever tried getting turned on by the same sex? Prove to me a "switch" is possible, then we'll talk. :rolleyes:

What?
Yeah, I'm a little confused too. What the hell was that comment supposed to mean?

(I think he knows what I think, but I don't have the right to tell him).

Well, you have the right to tell me, thanks to the First Amendment. And I'm glad you do. If you want to save souls, go ahead and prosletyze (sp?) all you want. But you don't have the right to do it on the government dime, enshrining anti-gay sentiment into legislation.

Well, you have the right to tell me, thanks to the First Amendment. And I'm glad you do. If you want to save souls, go ahead and prosletyze (sp?) all you want. But you don't have the right to do it on the government dime, enshrining anti-gay sentiment into legislation.
I would proselytise (sp?) but you've made it plain that you're not receptive to it, so :) anyway... I am not in the USA, and so your First Amendment is irrelevant to me, but we have similar laws here... Our legislation in NZ is pretty pro-gay (civil unions were just enacted). I don't know that there's actually any anti-gay legislation in the USA, is there?

Proselytize (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=proselytize).

:p :D

Just thought I'd help out.

I would proselytise (sp?) but you've made it plain that you're not receptive to it, so anyway... I am not in the USA, and so your First Amendment is irrelevant to me, but we have similar laws here... Our legislation in NZ is pretty pro-gay (civil unions were just enacted). I don't know that there's actually any anti-gay legislation in the USA, is there?

I'm not receptive to it because it would not work. I know this idea will just...not be accepted by some proselytizers (thanks, Stage!), so I guess there's no point in repeating it. But...I'll do it one last time. If I could be attracted to girl parts instead of guy parts, I would, because it would make life easier. But I can't. It's not something I stress about. I think about being gay...pretty much never. I plan on living a happy life with (hopefully) a lifetime partner. So..yeah, I'd switch over to girl part attraction if I could. A lot of militant gay activists would be taken aback by such a view, which is wrong. But at the same time, I'm fine with being gay.

Second, to me, even if there was no First Amendment, the use of government force by one group to actively keep another group from peaceably assembling is illegitimate, on universal moral grounds. I feel we can discuss these things without being bound to the specific laws of any country's borders. Anti-gay laws are as reprehensible in the U.S. as in New Zealand as in Saudi Arabia.

Third, there is anti-gay legislation. Until two years ago, when such laws were struck down in a 5-4 Supreme Court decision, homosexual sodomy was illegal in a number of states. Still today, gays are denied (sometimes expressly) the legal benefits a marriage license brings by a number of state- and federal- level laws. And just this week (http://gaywired.com/article.cfm?section=13&id=6610) gays' job protection for jobs with the federal government was essentially wiped out. We're not the most oppressed minority in world history by any means at all, but there are injustices that ought to be corrected.

PS, yeah, I'm chained to it for life. You ever tried getting turned on by the same sex? Prove to me a "switch" is possible, then we'll talk. :rolleyes:


I hope so, because i know it can't be a good lifestyle . I wasn't saying you would hurt a kid. Just that anyone who would pareade around in those freak shows with kids are evil . You say you don't .

Well, you have the right to tell me, thanks to the First Amendment. And I'm glad you do. If you want to save souls, go ahead and prosletyze (sp?) all you want. But you don't have the right to do it on the government dime, enshrining anti-gay sentiment into legislation.


it was already there, a few decades ago, you'd been put into prison for this lifestyle. So it was there to begin with. It was highjaked by the manhaters, but it was illegal to be queer . Adultry and fornacation was illegal too.

I hope so, because i know it can't be a good lifestyle . I wasn't saying you would hurt a kid. Just that anyone who would pareade around in those freak shows with kids are evil . You say you don