BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Sunni Arabs -- many of whom boycotted Iraq's elections -- began talks Thursday with members of the panel writing the country's new constitution, officials said.

The talks are part of an effort by the transitional National Assembly, dominated by Shiites and Kurds, to bring Sunni Arabs into the process of creating a new political culture.

"We welcome this participation," Shiite Arab cleric Hummam Hammoudi said in a CNN interview Wednesday. Sunnis "are accepting, willing and eager for this participation," he said.

story (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/02/iraq.main/index.html)

Good news

They cannot have a say unless they join the system so this is good news.

The coalition soldiers have been known to kick their A$$. I'm thinking it's a good call...and long needed.

I think that they now realize that staying home on election day was a huge mistake, and now they need to quickly get into the political process. It's a shame they didn't realize this from the start, but many were threatened with death if they voted. I would have to say that something like that would be a huge disincentive for me, so I can't blame them for staying home.

Do you think it'll work?

I mean; Do you think that the Sunni Iraqis will all band to gether and join the Iraq govt., then they will al form a nice govt. which the Iraqi people will all support, and they will rebuild their infrastructure, kick start their economy and then live happily ever after? Seriously?

-Rashid786-

We can hope, and pray.

I think the big danger is if a radical theocracy develops likethey have in Iran.

I was just listening to the radio today, and a guy was describing how adulteresses (not men; only women) are stoned to death in Iran. It's frightening. Also, the penalty for converting from Islam to another religion is death, and the same applies to Saudi Arabia.

If they can establish some type of "bill of rights" or something similiar, and actually institute, and enforce it, then I believe there's hope.

Unfortunately, traditions are ingrained in many people, and Muslin/Sharia law is what they're familiar with, and to them it is perfectly normal to live under such a system. I just hope that SOMEONE can get the point acroos that it doesn't have to be that way anymore, and that it's time for some changes.

Im inclined to agree with Salah... Not that it makes me in the least bit happy as conservative radio would make you think, but the fact that the Iraq govt. is currently as stable as a table made of jellow holding up fireworks isnt terribly encouraging.

Im inclined to agree with Salah... Not that it makes me in the least bit happy as conservative radio would make you think, but the fact that the Iraq govt. is currently as stable as a table made of jellow holding up fireworks isnt terribly encouraging.


Well, I'm happy that there IS a government. Many naysayers were convinced that it couldn't happen, and the fact that it's come about in such a relatively short time is nothing less than miraculous in my opinion.

I don't believe that any new government, anywhere on Earth can be considered "stable" for quite a few years, and the influx of foriegn fighters isn't helping the situation one bit. Even the fromer Soviet Union went through a coup de tas AFTER the fall of the empire, and the army fired on the "white House" for days under Boris Yeltsin. Many believed that he was incapable of pulling it off, but he (and the citizenry) did. He was an alcoholic, and a loose cannon, but his government did indeed survive.

What concerns me more than anything is the culture that is in play in the Middle East. It's completely alien when compared to Eastern, or Western European culture.

My hope is that the basic human desire for freedom and individual rights will triumph in the end, and when things are stabilized, it will perpetuate itself. Hell, that's what inevitably brought the U.S., and it's constitution into existence, and we're still here. I believe it CAN happen, but the right people need to come onto the scene in order for it to last.
Time will tell.

I think the big danger is if a radical theocracy develops likethey have in Iran.

For me, thats not a danger, thats what I hope and pray for.

If they can establish some type of "bill of rights" or something similiar, and actually institute, and enforce it, then I believe there's hope.

You believe that they should have a govt. like you have it? Thats what the gist of your posts suggest to me...don't you think thats a tad narrow minded? I think its stupid. :)

Unfortunately, traditions are ingrained in many people, and Muslin/Sharia law is what they're familiar with, and to them it is perfectly normal to live under such a system. I just hope that SOMEONE can get the point acroos that it doesn't have to be that way anymore, and that it's time for some changes.

Actually, most of the people there have never lived through a shariah regime. Saddam was secular, the ba'ath party was secular. He didn't enforce shari'ah law, nor did he like it. In fact, part of his reason for invading Iran was because he hated Shari'ah, he feared some Iraqis would want to enforce shari'ah law in Iraq.

And it IS normal, and OK to live under a shari'ah state. And its time for change, yes, your right, change to the true Islam. Away from the corrupt, hopeless path of secularisation and socialism, back to Islam.

My hope is that the basic human desire for freedom and individual rights will triumph in the end, and when things are stabilized, it will perpetuate itself. Hell, that's what inevitably brought the U.S., and it's constitution into existence, and we're still here. I believe it CAN happen, but the right people need to come onto the scene in order for it to last.
Time will tell.

Would post up a link...can;t be bothered now. I'll just say: The US worked, because you came from a religiouslu oppressive Christian Europe, a Europe where religion was backward (I mean no offence...just...). A Europe where science was suppressed, where things were pretty stagnate. Are you trying to compare Europe before the people went over to the Americas, to the Muslim lands? To the Islamic empire, Islamic state etc? Its not the same. DIfferent situation, different history, different.

Do you get my point? Thats one thing that ticks me off.

-Rashid786-

Rashid,

I actually DID point out that Iraq was totally different from European culture. That's obvious.

I DO however wholeheartedly disagree that Isalmic law is "fine". Humans DESERVE basic human rights, and death by stoning is barbaric in this day and age. Tradition doesn't make something right, especially torturous executions. The Iranians actually have set standards for the size of the stones used in these executions. Large stones are unacceptable, because they may cause a quick death. The point is to inflict as much pain as possible, and scare the living hell out of those who may be considering any similiar transgressions. It's nothing but fear based conformity.

Homosexuals are also subject to the death penalty, and are regularly beheaded in Saudi Arabia. That's a fact that many would like to keep swept under the rug. I'm not a huge supporter of Gay rights, but I do NOT believe that they deserve any mistreatment because of their sexuality.


People should be allowed to practice whatever religion they choose, without the fear of being put to death by the sword, stoning, or whatever other means may be in use. Just because someone chooses not to subscribe to Islam does not mean that they are unfit to live. For people to think that they can choose someone's faith, through fear, is a sign of those in power being fearful themselves of losing power. If there were widespred conversions (which I doubt), the Mullahs and Imams would have no one left to control and inflict their 10th century belief system upon.

As much as I dislike Sadaam, and detest his murderous life, I agree with him that sharia is an evil, fear based belief system that controls people, instead of encouraging them to be who they really ARE, and allow them to do what they feel is right for them.

That's what I love about America. Even though we have our political differences, which can get pretty ugly and divisive at times, we're all Americans in the end, and will fight to keep it that way. Not only that, anyone can come here and become an American, and they can live the life that they choose, without the worry that the thought police could show up and kill them, and their families, for believeing in the "wrong" God. That's ludicrous, and frankly, ignorant of basic human nature.

Many practitioners of Islam are only believers because of where they were born, and how they were raised. That goes for all religions and cultures for the most part,but geography should not dictate what a human being is ALLOWED to believe.

I think that Salah and Swiftsloth are right in saying that Iraq will never be stable.

Betrade you have to understand that the Iranians or Shias have created there own version of Shariah law the Sunnis have the Shariah laws Basied on The Holy Quran, The Hadith and the consensus. the Shias have the first two and also what the 12 Imams have said, this is the difference that not many people understand. But like Slah has said its about time that the Muslims were ruled by trues Islamic laws and not a bit of Shariah law and secularaism.

I think that Salah and Swiftsloth are right in saying that Iraq will never be stable.

Betrade you have to understand that the Iranians or Shias have created there own version of Shariah law the Sunnis have the Shariah laws Basied on The Holy Quran, The Hadith and the consensus. the Shias have the first two and also what the 12 Imams have said, this is the difference that not many people understand. But like Slah has said its about time that the Muslims were ruled by trues Islamic laws and not a bit of Shariah law and secularaism.


Well, ultimately it's up to them, and if they want to live that way, then they deserve whatever they get.

If they believe that stonings, amputations, slavery (yes, slavery in several Muslim countries), beheadings, etc. are a really great way to enforce ther laws, then they shouldn't blame the Western world for their miseries. That's self inflicted, and no ones fault but their own for agreeing to it.

I always think it's funny when the folks who claim that the U.S. is religious nation are appalled that many Iraqis want their county to become a religious nation.

I actually DID point out that Iraq was totally different from European culture. That's obvious.

Sorry. It was apparent to me from your post that you felt what worked for the West will somehow work for the Muslim world. That secularism will work there, that a non-Islamic system/way of life would actually get along there. Is that not what you meant?

DO however wholeheartedly disagree that Isalmic law is "fine". Humans DESERVE basic human rights, and death by stoning is barbaric in this day and age

But it wasn't then? Why? I don't think its barbaric, its painful. It deters future adulterers. Lets talk pure shari'ah, though I do not agree with KoK AT ALL, we'll talk just the actual shari'ah law itself, and not where its practived today. The purpose of stoning is to deter future adulterers from committing adultery. You have to have 4 reliable solid witnesses to the act before anyone can be killed. The chances of that are...lol, can't be bothered now. I've heard of 3 actual cases in the last 10 or so years. Times that by the 1400 year history of Islam, and find out that more people have probably been killed in the US on the electric chair or whathaveyou, than by stoning. BTW, just out of curiosity, how do you think people should be killed? Or do you not believe in capital punishment all together?

Homosexuals are also subject to the death penalty, and are regularly beheaded in Saudi Arabia. That's a fact that many would like to keep swept under the rug. I'm not a huge supporter of Gay rights, but I do NOT believe that they deserve any mistreatment because of their sexuality.

Regularly? Are you sure? What makes you think that? Oh, and I do. What you gonna do? We differ. You may critise the shari'ah, somehow, of knowing better than the people themselves. Isn't that exactly what your doing now?

People should be allowed to practice whatever religion they choose, without the fear of being put to death by the sword, stoning, or whatever other means may be in use. Just because someone chooses not to subscribe to Islam does not mean that they are unfit to live. For people to think that they can choose someone's faith, through fear, is a sign of those in power being fearful themselves of losing power. If there were widespred conversions (which I doubt), the Mullahs and Imams would have no one left to control and inflict their 10th century belief system upon.

That subject is a deeper topic in itself...sort of. Two types of apostate, one who was born into it and one who converted...*sigh* 'know what, I can't be bothered. Basically, they are traitors. Traitors are executed. Other people are allowed to believe and worship freely (except polythiests). But Muslims are not allowed to leave the fold of Islam, if you do, your killed.

As much as I dislike Sadaam, and detest his murderous life, I agree with him that sharia is an evil, fear based belief system that controls people, instead of encouraging them to be who they really ARE, and allow them to do what they feel is right for them.

How much do you know about shari'ah law? I really want to know...how much have you really researched, studied, and considered just the Crime&Punishments "section" of it? I'm not saying I put such consideration into everything I do or think...I'm just asking if you have/do. Will you not agree that the deterrent measures in shari'ah law, are effective? You say they are not very nice...look at their true intention. To deter. And it does deter. (when fully implemented and enforced) You say its cruel...what is really cruel about it? People dying? How many...not many. How? About as painful as the method you use.

Like I said, only Muslim apostates are killed. Everyone else (except polythiests) are free to worship as they wish.

BTW, just in case your...not sure but: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World, via converts, not just because we breed like rabbits :p

then they shouldn't blame the Western world for their miseries. That's self inflicted, and no ones fault but their own for agreeing to it.

What misery are we talking about? The misery I see, in the Muslim lands, is NOT because of Islam, the Islamic state, the shari'ah law, but because of the [b]lack[/i] of it.

-Rashid786-

I always think it's funny when the folks who claim that the U.S. is religious nation are appalled that many Iraqis want their county to become a religious nation.


There's a huge difference. We (Americans) can practice ANY religion we choose; even Satanism or whatever else we may choose.

In Muslim countries, conversion to a non Muslim religion is punishable by death. If a woman from anywhere on Earth marries a Muslim man, and participates in a Muslim/Arabic ceremony, she automatically converts to Islam whether she likes/knows it or not. Once she realizes it (if she's unaware at the time of the ceremony), it's too late, and she basically becomes the property of her husband, and he can do whatever he damn well pleases with her. He can also get himself a few more wifes if he chooses. From what I've read, not many do, but it's always an otion. Sadaam himself got a new, and younger wife later in life.

It's an archaic, oppressive belief system that denies basic human rights. It may be what those people are familiar with, but that doesn't make it good.

We Americans KNOW what freedom is. Many people on this planet don't, and they can't fathom not living under a regimented, rigid system, because that's all that they ahve ever known. They're taught early on that the West is evil, so they believe it. The Iranians still teach their kids to chant "death to America", Palestineans are still starpping pretend suicide vests on babies and little children, and telling them it's "honorable" to blow themselves up as long as they take a few Jews with them. It's a warped world view, and anyone who doesn't see the inherent danger in the extremism produced by this religion is blind. I don't know how anyone can logically defend it as a religion of "peace", when it has produced so many fanatic murderers. They're not coming from any other religion; only Islam.

We Americans would tell those Mullahs to take a flyimg f#ck in a New York minute if they tried to dictate to us how to think, act, and what "God" to worship.

I do NOT hate Muslims, or anyone else for that matter. I happen to have a female Muslim friend, who's really nice, and really cool, but she's terrified of God. She doesn't admit it, but her actions show this to be the case.

If she doesn't pray 5 times a day, she thinks she's done something evil, and beats herself up with guilt. She spends her life trying to appease God, and it's sad, because she doesn't need to do that. She's been indoctrinated to believe that hers is the only path, and to deviate means pain and suffering. I would like to see her, and any other Muslim who desires freedom be given the choice to walk away from it, without fear of retribution to themselves and their family members, or alienation from their society.

I also say those that desire to continue to practice Islam should go right ahead, but I would prefer if they didn't blame everyone else for their problems, and mureder innocent men, women, and CHILDREN in the name of their "God". I don't believe that any God requires the blood of innocents, and I feel very sorry for anyone who does.

and he can do whatever he damn well pleases with her

Maybe in Muslim countries. Not under shari'ah law. Thats why I asked how much you know of shari'ah law. Islamic law preserves the right of women. Men don't own women. Women don't own Men. Women have their right to own their property. Men can't over ride their property. I could on on forever...well not forever but...:p

We Americans KNOW what freedom is

Wrong. You know what you think is freedom. Try going on a few Islamic boards...you'll hear the same sentence from Muslims...I'm with them. I feel sorry for a lot of Americans, and the system they live under...

because that's all that they ahve ever known.

If we're talking about Iraq, they HAVEN'T lived under shari'ah. Saddam's Iraq was a secular state. You'll find that most of the Mujahideen in Iraq have been born after Saddam's advent. I live in the West, and I am pro-Shari'ah. I can see the Western system, I live in it everyday, and I reject it. Preferring the shari'ah system.

They're not coming from any other religion; only Islam.

Take it you didn't hear the news about that African church? They tortured a little girl because she was a "witch". Stabbed her...burned her...all sorts :( Those not fanatic murderers? Howabout extremist Hindus, who riot in the streets, and tear down Muslim mosques? Oh, and kill people. No? OK, howabout American Christians who believe that the Muslims are too narrow minded and blind to see "freedom" and "democracy", so they go over there and KILL 20,000+ INNOCENT civillians to try and "spread peace and democracy" around the World?

I do NOT hate Muslims, or anyone else for that matter. I happen to have a female Muslim friend, who's really nice, and really cool, but she's terrified of God. She doesn't admit it, but her actions show this to be the case.

And thats bad? Fear of God is a GOOD thing. Christianty sees "god-fearing" people as religious and pious. Is being god-fearing bad?

If she doesn't pray 5 times a day, she thinks she's done something evil, and beats herself up with guilt. She spends her life trying to appease God, and it's sad, because she doesn't need to do that. She's been indoctrinated to believe that hers is the only path, and to deviate means pain and suffering. I would like to see her, and any other Muslim who desires freedom be given the choice to walk away from it, without fear of retribution to themselves and their family members, or alienation from their society.

Sorry? Do you believe in God? Sorry...I dunno much about you...I may have debated with you before...I have a very poormemory :p

Nor do I, and so do I.

-Rashid786-

Religion figures pretty large over there,it's naive to think you're going to have a secular government but the Sunnis' actions are a positive sign.
I'm sure these people are all sick to death of this stuff.
The decisive question to me is do the people have enough confidence and insight to pull together and resist all forms of disruption...

Maybe in Muslim countries. Not under shari'ah law. Thats why I asked how much you know of shari'ah law. Islamic law preserves the right of women. Men don't own women. Women don't own Men. Women have their right to own their property. Men can't over ride their property. I could on on forever...well not forever but...:p



Wrong. You know what you think is freedom. Try going on a few Islamic boards...you'll hear the same sentence from Muslims...I'm with them. I feel sorry for a lot of Americans, and the system they live under...



If we're talking about Iraq, they HAVEN'T lived under shari'ah. Saddam's Iraq was a secular state. You'll find that most of the Mujahideen in Iraq have been born after Saddam's advent. I live in the West, and I am pro-Shari'ah. I can see the Western system, I live in it everyday, and I reject it. Preferring the shari'ah system.



Take it you didn't hear the news about that African church? They tortured a little girl because she was a "witch". Stabbed her...burned her...all sorts :( Those not fanatic murderers? Howabout extremist Hindus, who riot in the streets, and tear down Muslim mosques? Oh, and kill people. No? OK, howabout American Christians who believe that the Muslims are too narrow minded and blind to see "freedom" and "democracy", so they go over there and KILL 20,000+ INNOCENT civillians to try and "spread peace and democracy" around the World?



And thats bad? Fear of God is a GOOD thing. Christianty sees "god-fearing" people as religious and pious. Is being god-fearing bad?



Sorry? Do you believe in God? Sorry...I dunno much about you...I may have debated with you before...I have a very poormemory :p

Nor do I, and so do I.

-Rashid786-


Rashid,

First, I don't intend to offend you, or anyone else, and you're right, all religions produce zealots, and they're all guilty of one thing or another, as are all humans in general. It's just that at this point in history, Islamic Zealots in very large numbers have organized, are well financed, have networked, and have spread this terrorist cancer around the world, with the sole purpose of killing innocents for shock value, even if it means that fellow Muslims must die as well. How can anyone defend that? I wish it wasn't so, but it's the truth. Like I said, I do NOT hate Muslims, or anyone else. I hate no one. And yes, we have gone at it a few times before by the way.

I was raised in an extremely religious family, and used to be a Christian. I've reached a point where I refuse to follow any religion, because I think they're all flawed at the core, including the one I was raised in, and the various denominations I tried at different times. They're filled with hypocrtical liars, and they always want your money; 10% if you can swing it.

I also don't believe that "fear" of God is a good thing, and I don't think God would want us to be fearful of (HIM???/HER??? I'm just not convinced that God is of one sex or another, sorry folks, but I doubt that God needs sex to create). I believe fear is inflicted upon people in the name of God by other people to keep them in line. In fact, I have no doubt about that. I think we're all aware of right and wrong, and we don't need an angry God to scare us into behaving ourselves.

I do NOT know Sharia law as you do, and I probably never will, because I'm just not too intersested in learning much about it. I'm no authority, nor do I claim to be. But, I do disagree with stonings, amputations, death for rejecting ANY religion, etc. It's cruel and unusual.

You say that Muslims understand freedom, but what major Muslim country has freedom of speech, religion, the press, assembly, etc.???? What freedoms do they have if they don't conform to the religion??? It seems that if they tow the line, they're ok, but if they decide to believe in Jesus or Buddha, or Krishna by choice, or conscience, they can pay with their life. How can that be rationalized as freedom??? That's coersion where I come from, and I'm against it;sorry.


We in America welcome you to practice whatever religion you choose, but we wouldn't have that right in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. If you or I are caught giving away Bibles over there, we can be executed. Is that religious freedom??? I also don't believe in any religion (including Christianity) that professes to have the only "truth"; sorry.

One more question (and don't take offense, I actually am curious). If you oppose the West, and support Muslim countries and Sharia law, why do you live in the West, instead of one of the wonderful and free Muslim countries? Do you think it's better to live here, or there, and if there is better, why do you stay here??? wouldn't you be happier living under that system? Have you ever actually lived under Sharia?

Do Muslims truly want the rest of the world to practice their own religions as they see fit, or would they prefer a worldwide Muslim system???

Do you believe that killing innocent Jews, Americans, and Europeans is justified? Do you agree with the philosophy and tactics of Muslim terrorists?

Do you think that the Jews in Israel have a right to exist as a country?

And lastly, where is the outcry against terrorism in the Muslim world? Where are the Muslim leaders who ought to be denouncing the fanatics who plant bombs on trains and kill innocent commuters?? I have yet to hear the outcry and denunciation from the Mullahs and Imams in any significant way. They have been very silent so far.

Betrade,he's 13.

OH. Sorry.

Rashid,

I actually DID point out that Iraq was totally different from European culture. That's obvious.

I DO however wholeheartedly disagree that Isalmic law is "fine". Humans DESERVE basic human rights, and death by stoning is barbaric in this day and age. Tradition doesn't make something right, especially torturous executions. The Iranians actually have set standards for the size of the stones used in these executions. Large stones are unacceptable, because they may cause a quick death. The point is to inflict as much pain as possible, and scare the living hell out of those who may be considering any similiar transgressions. It's nothing but fear based conformity.


Hey you know the rights and democracy in England is actually closer to an islamic democracy than the "democracy" in Islamic countries- torture and murder is forbidden...so what you claim that death by stoning is allowed in islam- you are wrong- Killing in islam is wrong, murder, rape, suicide, torture etc is all disallowed in islam and the people who will do these things will get punished in the afterlife(which i believe in )...

First, I don't intend to offend you, or anyone else, and you're right, all religions produce zealots, and they're all guilty of one thing or another, as are all humans in general. It's just that at this point in history, Islamic Zealots in very large numbers have organized, are well financed, have networked, and have spread this terrorist cancer around the world, with the sole purpose of killing innocents for shock value, even if it means that fellow Muslims must die as well. How can anyone defend that? I wish it wasn't so, but it's the truth. Like I said, I do NOT hate Muslims, or anyone else. I hate no one. And yes, we have gone at it a few times before by the way.

I won't defend it. Have I ever attempted to defend it? I am against that, Islam is against that. Islam forbids the killing of ANY innocents. Islam forbids terrorism. I don't understand how you got the idea that I would defend it :scratch: Oh, and I'm not offended :)

I was raised in an extremely religious family, and used to be a Christian. I've reached a point where I refuse to follow any religion, because I think they're all flawed at the core, including the one I was raised in, and the various denominations I tried at different times. They're filled with hypocrtical liars, and they always want your money; 10% if you can swing it.

I'm sorry you feel like that...I would go into this a little more...but I suppose its kind of irrelevant.

I also don't believe that "fear" of God is a good thing, and I don't think God would want us to be fearful of (HIM???/HER??? I'm just not convinced that God is of one sex or another, sorry folks, but I doubt that God needs sex to create).

I believe that fear in God is necessary. If you do not fear that one day, you will be brought to justice for everything you do, then why on Earth should you not do something bad? Go on; Why should I not kill you? Because its bad? Well, what exactly is it that is bad about it, to me? I'll get put in prison, no, I'm very influencial, I can buy out the entire govt. SO why then should I not kill you? I could go on...we'd come to a dead end: There is always someone greater, God Almighty, and he will bring you to justice on the Day.

Oh, and BTW, I don't believe God is either sex either ;) The male term is used in Hebrew and Arabic because in semitic languages, there are only two linguistic genders: male and female. In English, there are 3: male, female and neutral. In Arabic, male is used for several reasons. The only one I can remember now is that the female label is given to things which can be plural. God is one and Only, so they used the male term. In English, you should say "it"... I'd have to have a whole post just about God...

You say that Muslims understand freedom, but what major Muslim country has freedom of speech, religion, the press, assembly, etc.???? What freedoms do they have if they don't conform to the religion??? It seems that if they tow the line, they're ok, but if they decide to believe in Jesus or Buddha, or Krishna by choice, or conscience, they can pay with their life. How can that be rationalized as freedom??? That's coersion where I come from, and I'm against it;sorry.

Like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is freedom. Ask Muslims who live under shari'ah law. Ask Muslims in the West. What you say is freedom, is what you think is freedom. What I think is freedom differs from yours...is there a universal definition of freedom? Before going to anarchy that is...absolute freedom is just silly IMO.

We in America welcome you to practice whatever religion you choose, but we wouldn't have that right in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. If you or I are caught giving away Bibles over there, we can be executed. Is that religious freedom??? I also don't believe in any religion (including Christianity) that professes to have the only "truth"; sorry.

Kuwaits an Islamic state? :eek: Anyway, a Muslim girl living in France could have her right to a proper education taken away from her if she wears an Islamic headscarf. Is that religious freedom? Are rastepharians (sp?) allowed to smoke grass in the States? Is that religious freedom? There is always a limit, no state on Earth grants absolute freedom. (well, not to my knowledge anyway, before you start on about Uganderwana or some country like that :p)

One more question (and don't take offense, I actually am curious). If you oppose the West, and support Muslim countries and Sharia law, why do you live in the West, instead of one of the wonderful and free Muslim countries? Do you think it's better to live here, or there, and if there is better, why do you stay here??? wouldn't you be happier living under that system? Have you ever actually lived under Sharia?

Its not quite as easy/simple as that. You could starte with, as Mike said, I'm 13. No offence taken. :)

Do Muslims truly want the rest of the world to practice their own religions as they see fit, or would they prefer a worldwide Muslim system???

I'd prefer for everyone on Earth to see the light of Islam, and convert. I think Islam is the truth, and want everyone to be a Muslim. But before you start about forced conversion, there's a difference. I would prefer them to be Muslim, as I'm sure you would prefer everyone to agree with you...or well at least agree on what you believe to be the truth. Christians want to convert the rest of the world. In Islam, there is no compulsion in religion. Forcing someone to convert is a grave sin, which admittedly some Muslims were guilty of in the past...but that is not Islam.

Do you believe that killing innocent Jews, Americans, and Europeans is justified? Do you agree with the philosophy and tactics of Muslim terrorists?

No. No, killing innocents and non-combatants is forbidden. No, being treacherous in warfare is forbidden. Muslims fight face to face. I'd find a quote from a historian...dammit, meh: "Islam has produced the most noble fighters in the history of man" - Unknown

Do you think that the Jews in Israel have a right to exist as a country?

I believe the Jews have a right to exist, and live. I believe that Jews anywhere have a right to live, and practice Judaism. I do not however believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist. Our land. Our city. I would be prepared to come to an agreement with them, and allow the state of Israel to exist, but only under strict conditions...-ish. Can't really say now, I mean...when things "unfold", it may become more clear. The world won't stay as it is now forever ;)

And lastly, where is the outcry against terrorism in the Muslim world? Where are the Muslim leaders who ought to be denouncing the fanatics who plant bombs on trains and kill innocent commuters?? I have yet to hear the outcry and denunciation from the Mullahs and Imams in any significant way. They have been very silent so far.

Thats the most common argument I've ever... There has been outcry from Muslims. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean its not there. Your media doesn't tell you about it. If suddenly, with no new denounciations at all, they just started reporting them more, yuo'd think otherwise. Just look harder. You can find plenty just on the net. I feel the necessity to do this :p "Terrorism is evil, bad and unIslamic."

OH. Sorry.

For...?

Hey you know the rights and democracy in England is actually closer to an islamic democracy than the "democracy" in Islamic countries- torture and murder is forbidden...so what you claim that death by stoning is allowed in islam- you are wrong- Killing in islam is wrong, murder, rape, suicide, torture etc is all disallowed in islam and the people who will do these things will get punished in the afterlife(which i believe in )...

Stoning adulteres has been precribed by Muhammad(SAW). Killing murderers and rapists has been precribed by Allah. As a deterrent...not so much an actual punishment. And its effective as a deterrent. Oh, and did I stress the strict conditions that must be met before anyone is killed? reliable witnesses. A baby being a very reliable one :p Oh...and if they confess freely.

-Rashid786-

I think that Salah and Swiftsloth are right in saying that Iraq will never be stable.

Betrade you have to understand that the Iranians or Shias have created there own version of Shariah law the Sunnis have the Shariah laws Basied on The Holy Quran, The Hadith and the consensus. the Shias have the first two and also what the 12 Imams have said, this is the difference that not many people understand. But like Slah has said its about time that the Muslims were ruled by trues Islamic laws and not a bit of Shariah law and secularaism.

So what do shias base it on?!
Everything we islamic we base on the quraan, hadith and from ahl al bayt (prophets household)

Stoning adulteres has been precribed by Muhammad(SAW). Killing murderers and rapists has been precribed by Allah. As a deterrent...not so much an actual punishment. And its effective as a deterrent. Oh, and did I stress the strict conditions that must be met before anyone is killed? reliable witnesses. A baby being a very reliable one Oh...and if they confess freely.

elaborate- explain...

Sorry but what is the sharia law?

So what do shias base it on?!
Everything we islamic we base on the quraan, hadith and from ahl al bayt (prophets household)

Why ahl ah bayt? :eek7: So, anyone who isn't a descendant of Muhammad(SAW) isn't reliable? :eek7:

As for elaborate:

In the Qur'an, it says that anyone who has pre-marital sex should be lashed 100 times in public, with no mercy, i.e. a full 100, you shouldn't stop anywhere before there. That was Allah's command. When a person who had committed extra-marital sex, i.e. was already married, but had sex with someone else, he had the person lashed 100 times, and then stoned to death as well. At the time of Umar ibn al-Khattab(RA), someone was lashed and then stoned. He was asked why they were lashed AND stoned, he replied "I lashed them by the command of Allah, and stoned them by the command of Allah's apostle Muhammad(SAW).

For murder, there are 2 or 3 options...:scratch: One of them, is that the murdere r is executed. The other, is that the family of the murdered forgives the murderer. There might be a third...can't remember :scratch:

Read Shari'ah: The Islamic Law by Abdur Rahman for more specific info on everything else about Shari'ah.

:eek7: How can you not know what shari'ah law is??? :eek7: OK...its the Islamic law. Taken from the Qur'an, and then the Hadith, and then the example of ALL the companions, and then through debate...the last one: If the Qur'an, nor the hadith, nor the example of the Sahaba answers it specifically, then you apply the principles from the Qur'an and Hadith and SUnnah blah blah to come to a conclusion.

-Rashid786-

Why ahl ah bayt? :eek7: So, anyone who isn't a descendant of Muhammad(SAW) isn't reliable? :eek7:


Umm well...if they are part of the prophets household they are most likely to be closer to the prophet than any man...


As for elaborate:

In the Qur'an, it says that anyone who has pre-marital sex should be lashed 100 times in public, with no mercy, i.e. a full 100, you shouldn't stop anywhere before there. That was Allah's command. When a person who had committed extra-marital sex, i.e. was already married, but had sex with someone else, he had the person lashed 100 times, and then stoned to death as well. At the time of Umar ibn al-Khattab(RA), someone was lashed and then stoned. He was asked why they were lashed AND stoned, he replied "I lashed them by the command of Allah, and stoned them by the command of Allah's apostle Muhammad(SAW).

For murder, there are 2 or 3 options...:scratch: One of them, is that the murdere r is executed. The other, is that the family of the murdered forgives the murderer. There might be a third...can't remember :scratch:


but then where is the mercy, forgiveness of god? Many times in the Quraan it is explicite that god is the forgiver the merciful...and also this contradicts the idea of freedom in islam, so then we are not not free?! God gave us freedom to act...we choose the right or wrong path and HE/GOD in the after life will punish or reward us for our deeds.

I don't think humans should interfere because to me then it is immoral.

Shouldn't that person be given a chance to repent?
:hmm:



Read Shari'ah: The Islamic Law by Abdur Rahman for more specific info on everything else about Shari'ah.

:eek7: How can you not know what shari'ah law is??? :eek7: OK...its the Islamic law. Taken from the Qur'an, and then the Hadith, and then the example of ALL the companions, and then through debate...the last one: If the Qur'an, nor the hadith, nor the example of the Sahaba answers it specifically, then you apply the principles from the Qur'an and Hadith and SUnnah blah blah to come to a conclusion.


-Rashid786-

Okay...
:hmm:

Rashid,

My wife comitted adultery numerous times. I don't condone it, nor am I with her anymore, but I don't think that she deserves a torterous DEATH, and I don't think that my children should be deprived of their mother. I believe in forgiveness. That doesn't mean that I, or anyone else should tolerate being abused or mistreated by others, but people do make mistakes, and must live with the regret and consequences their entire lives. I believe that punishments are built into almost every crime, and doing wrong will screw up a persons life sooner or later. I allow people to punish themselves if that's what they choose.

The fact that you "prefer" the world to convert troubles me. The same goes for Christians who want the same. Practitioners of almost every religion, and denomination believe that they have the "truth". I personally don't think that anyone has the real, entire truth. There have been too many contradictory "revelations". I detest people who try to shove their view of the truth down people's throats, especially when their truth has a million questions that no one can answer, including themselves.

Oh, and I wasn't talking about France in regard to freedom. I was talking about the states. Muslim girls can wear their scarves here, and pray all they want. We PROTECT religious freedom here. The fact that Muslims who convert to another religion are killed in other countries is deplorable in my opinion. There's no way that can be realistically construed as religious freedom.

OK, you're right. If there is an outcry against terrorism from the Muslim world, I don't see it, and something tells me I won't. On the other hand, Al Jezeer broadcasts anti American propaganda regularly, and I don't consider that a denunciation of terrorism at all. They promote hatred against the West on a regular basis. I'm not sayiong that the Western press is off the hook either, but it is happening.

I believe that nationalism and religion have killed more humans than anything else in history, and I want no parts of either. God knows my heart, and if I'm to be dealt with in some afterlife, than God will inform me of my status. I don't need any humans telling me what God thinks, because they have no clue themselves. It's all speculation, and based information they have received from other humans, not God.

I think if God really wrote a book about life, it would have been about 50 pages or less. That would have been plenty of room to tell why we're here, how to live, and where we're going. All the scriptures I've read have been written by humans, so I don't put my faith in them. People lie too much.

The fact that you "prefer" the world to convert troubles me. The same goes for Christians who want the same. Practitioners of almost every religion, and denomination believe that they have the "truth". I personally don't think that anyone has the real, entire truth. There have been too many contradictory "revelations". I detest people who try to shove their view of the truth down people's throats, especially when their truth has a million questions that no one can answer, including themselves.


Really? then question me or any muslim about the islamic religion and i am sure we will find you a good answer that will satisfy you? ;)

OK, you're right. If there is an outcry against terrorism from the Muslim world, I don't see it, and something tells me I won't. On the other hand, Al Jezeer broadcasts anti American propaganda regularly, and I don't consider that a denunciation of terrorism at all. They promote hatred against the West on a regular basis. I'm not sayiong that the Western press is off the hook either, but it is happening


I watch al jazeera channel everyday i haven't seen a regular anti amercian propaganda???

please do tell me when you saw this and when it comes on?

Actually i think arabic people suck up to americans-- they are scared to go against them...

You know there is a very good channel called al manar...several months ago it broadcasted a drama about the truth of the isreali army and government but because of this, the whole channel was banned by SAT7 the french network because it revealed too much about the isreali army and government.
I thought this was soo lame...and so unfair as america and isreali are free to broadcast anything about arabic countries

I detest people who try to shove their view of the truth down people's throats, especially when their truth has a million questions that no one can answer, including themselves.


Betrade,

No offense, but isn't that exactly what you've been doing?

Clearly, you have little to no knowledge of The Holy Qur'an, Shari'a (Consensus, etc.) yet aren't you "trying to shove" your own view on another?

Why not just ask about Muslim practices that you are unsure of, instead of making assumptions that can only serve to promote the ignorance so prevalent today.

I think if you re-read your posts, you will see my point. This is not meant as an attack - I completely respect your thoughts. (I respect everyone's thoughts).

I am merely pointing out that the behavior you claim to detest is one in which you also (perhaps unwittingly) seem to particpate in.

Betrade i am not attacking nor do i dislike you. I think your quite an intelligent guy and one thing that i have noticed about you is that your experiance in life has tought you a lot and you can read between the lines. :)


In Muslim countries, conversion to a non Muslim religion is punishable by death. If a woman from anywhere on Earth marries a Muslim man, and participates in a Muslim/Arabic ceremony, she automatically converts to Islam whether she likes/knows it or not. Once she realizes it (if she's unaware at the time of the ceremony), it's too late, and she basically becomes the property of her husband, and he can do whatever he damn well pleases with her. He can also get himself a few more wifes if he chooses. From what I've read, not many do, but it's always an otion. Sadaam himself got a new, and younger wife later in life.


In Islam you are not a Muslim unless you accept the Shahada (There is none worthy of worship accept Allah and that Muhammed is his Prophet)
So no one can be forced in to Islam.
In Islam a man can not marry a second wife untill he has permission from his first wife and even then he must marry a women how is worse of then his first wife for example a Poor women or an ill women.

I do NOT hate Muslims, or anyone else for that matter.


Hay you should hate them is quite theroputic :) j/k (spelt it wrong)

I happen to have a female Muslim friend, who's really nice, and really cool, but she's terrified of God. She doesn't admit it, but her actions show this to be the case.

If she doesn't pray 5 times a day, she thinks she's done something evil, and beats herself up with guilt. She spends her life trying to appease God, and it's sad, because she doesn't need to do that. She's been indoctrinated to believe that hers is the only path, and to deviate means pain and suffering. I would like to see her, and any other Muslim who desires freedom be given the choice to walk away from it, without fear of retribution to themselves and their family members, or alienation from their society.

I also say those that desire to continue to practice Islam should go right ahead, but I would prefer if they didn't blame everyone else for their problems, and mureder innocent men, women, and CHILDREN in the name of their "God". I don't believe that any God requires the blood of innocents, and I feel very sorry for anyone who does.

I knew your an alrite guy, not that many Americans would say that they like Muslims after 9/11.

She fears Allah in her own way, I fear no one but Allah, actually all Muslims believe in that, all i am trying to get at is that by fearing Allah you will not commit a crime. Its like telling your Child that if the child does wrong the father is going to punish you, in return the child stops being naughty but the child will aways love his father will he not. In the same way Inshallah (Allah willing) i will always fear Allah and Love him at the same time and do what he has perscribed me.

Islam allows anyone to practice what ever they choose, Islam will not kill a Jew for believing that the Last massiah has not come yet nor does Islam kill a Christian for believeing in that Jesus PBUH is the son of God. However i do not know what happeneds to a Muslim that converst out of Islam. I will obviously find out and in due time i will inform you.

Terrorism is not allwoed in Islam. Do not take the Example of a person or people and think that he/she represents Islam Totally.
Islam forbbids acts of terrorism, you see Islam answers all questions needed, We the Muslims were the first to have "Rules of Engagement" the Rules and treatment of who and what is a "POW". The rules of what is a legitamate target, and that basicly means killing Innocent people is not allowed no matter what there creed is. The disruction of crops and farming field is not allowed when a Muslim army is attacking an invading nation. You see Islam has answers to every thing.

The Israel issue is really stupid in my view, I dont know why the Muslims cant accept the good old fashion rules "I saw, I killed, I conqued" The Israelis Saw they Killed they Conqued, it is there land now and if you want it back you have to do the same. That rule has been around from the start of nation building.
I do not agree on the killing of Innocent people and nor does Islam.


I do NOT know Sharia law as you do, and I probably never will, because I'm just not too intersested in learning much about it. I'm no authority, nor do I claim to be. But, I do disagree with stonings, amputations,

I am a GCSE Law student and the first thing they teach a Law student is "what is the purpose of law?" well i better get this right because i have a Law exam in a couple of days time, The purpose of law is to uphold peace and justice to avoid annochy and more importantly to have laws that would detter people from commiting an act of crime. Buy giving a harsh Punishment to a crime the less likely of a person in commiting that crime and that is what Shariah Law does, It puts fear into people and therfore that person will not commit that crime.


We in America welcome you to practice whatever religion you choose, but we wouldn't have that right in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. If you or I are caught giving away Bibles over there, we can be executed. Is that religious freedom??? I also don't believe in any religion (including Christianity) that professes to have the only "truth"; sorry.

Like i have said do not use a person to repesent Islam and the same should be for a nation. If you want to give out Bibles in an proper Islamic nation then knock your self out, You have the right to practice your religion, A Muslim tought properly Knows more about the Purpose of life then any Christian or a Jew will ever know.


but then where is the mercy, forgiveness of god? Many times in the Quraan it is explicite that god is the forgiver the merciful...and also this contradicts the idea of freedom in islam, so then we are not not free?! God gave us freedom to act...we choose the right or wrong path and HE/GOD in the after life will punish or reward us for our deeds.

I don't think humans should interfere because to me then it is immoral.

Shouldn't that person be given a chance to repent?

You really should ask your parents about these sort of questions because they will answer it better to you then Slah or i can over the net.

My wife comitted adultery numerous times. I don't condone it, nor am I with her anymore, but I don't think that she deserves a torterous DEATH, and I don't think that my children should be deprived of their mother. I believe in forgiveness. That doesn't mean that I, or anyone else should tolerate being abused or mistreated by others, but people do make mistakes, and must live with the regret and consequences their entire lives. I believe that punishments are built into almost every crime, and doing wrong will screw up a persons life sooner or later. I allow people to punish themselves if that's what they choose.

I am sorry to hear about your wife, You do not have to answer these quetions, and i am sorry if they bring back any bad memories.
but do you think that she would have commited those acts if she knew that she would be punished serverly for those crimes?. I think she may not have.
Do you think that the other person should be punished?. I think if you where to get him alone in one room then all hell would brake out.
She is a fool for cheating on you, she really does not know what she has missed out on. :D

I know you probably are not going to read all the post on this thread and i dont blame you :) but try to understand that what Muslims on this Thread are trying to tell you is that Islam is not an enemy of people but a guide for the people and that Islam is the path the Allah. I am not here to convert you to Islam i respect what you have chosen Allah has said in the Quran that he has chosen who will be a Muslims and who will not. I am not talking about today or in ten years time abut the past aswell.

You really should ask your parents about these sort of questions because they will answer it better to you then Slah or i can over the net.


that is a bit of a crappy answer IMO :D

Umm well...if they are part of the prophets household they are most likely to be closer to the prophet than any man...

Not necessarily. I find that the further away someone is from me (not necessarily physically) the better they know me...besides, what about the descendants of him who never lived with him, and about the very very close friends he had, who were not part of his "house". BTW, house does not literally refer to his household, but rather like his bloodline...

but then where is the mercy, forgiveness of god? Many times in the Quraan it is explicite that god is the forgiver the merciful...and also this contradicts the idea of freedom in islam, so then we are not not free?! God gave us freedom to act...we choose the right or wrong path and HE/GOD in the after life will punish or reward us for our deeds.

I don't think humans should interfere because to me then it is immoral.

Shouldn't that person be given a chance to repent?

Wow...you appear to get more and more liberal by the day :| Following Allah's law is a basic branch (for lack of betetr word) of Islam. No offence, but anyone who doesn't believe in it is a non-Muslim ;) Allah forgives those who commit sins out of desire, but not those sins committed out of arrogance. Not believing in Allah's law is one of the 10 things which nullify one's iman. (faith or Islam or w/e)

My wife comitted adultery numerous times. I don't condone it, nor am I with her anymore, but I don't think that she deserves a torterous DEATH, and I don't think that my children should be deprived of their mother. I believe in forgiveness. That doesn't mean that I, or anyone else should tolerate being abused or mistreated by others, but people do make mistakes, and must live with the regret and consequences their entire lives. I believe that punishments are built into almost every crime, and doing wrong will screw up a persons life sooner or later. I allow people to punish themselves if that's what they choose.

Sound good...unfortunately, IMO, it doesn't quite work like that. Do you think that people always have adulterous relations because they don't love their partner? Anyway, stoning adulteres to death isn't about punishment. Its about deterring future criminals from commiting adultery. Adultery harms society gravely, I think we can agree on that. When it goes "unpunished", then other people are free to do it. They may believe it is wrong, but when desires flare up, that feeling won't necessarily stop it. I understand in one case, if one party is killed, then the children are deprived of a mother. But then, the number of other casesa of adultery shoot down, because people are scared to do it, incase they get killed. Your way, the numbers of adulterous relationships soar, thousands of families break up, ruining the kids, the parents, causing depression etc. I may sound like a loon...but its true, as I've said countless times, Britain today is the best example of that I can think of. Just look at the filthy yob culture which is so common today. Why? Because of pre-marital, extra-marital relationships. Because of a lack of morality.

The fact that you "prefer" the world to convert troubles me. The same goes for Christians who want the same. Practitioners of almost every religion, and denomination believe that they have the "truth". I personally don't think that anyone has the real, entire truth. There have been too many contradictory "revelations". I detest people who try to shove their view of the truth down people's throats, especially when their truth has a million questions that no one can answer, including themselves.

I don't think any human has the absolute truth about absolutely everything. God is omni-scient. Islam does not try to give the entire truth about everything, only a relatively tiny amount. And that amount...is true IMO. I can only prove one thing, and only to me, not to anyone else, and that is that I exist. I think, therefore I am. I can not prove God exists, nor can I prove the angles exist, nor that the Prophets existed...only that I do. But anyway, what fundamental questions does Islam have that can not be answered? Oh, and why do you find it disturbing? You felt it was sad that your Muslim friend "beats" herself up if she misses a prayer. You think she should not have to do this...so are you not doing the same thing? I think you would prefer if everyone else held your beliefs...isn't that the same?

Oh, and I wasn't talking about France in regard to freedom. I was talking about the states. Muslim girls can wear their scarves here, and pray all they want. We PROTECT religious freedom here. The fact that Muslims who convert to another religion are killed in other countries is deplorable in my opinion. There's no way that can be realistically construed as religious freedom.

Like I said, freedom is in the ...feelings of the...freedomee? lol. Basically, there is no universal definition of freedom. What you call freedom, is probably what you have been brought up to see, or is a product of the society in which you live. Freedom for us is different. Are your women free, because they can walk down the street "free" to show off their skin? But are they free when they feel the necessity to be beautiful to be accepted? I can't word this right...I'll just let you read this (http://www.voiceofummah.net/Islam_liberates_women.htm).

OK, you're right. If there is an outcry against terrorism from the Muslim world, I don't see it, and something tells me I won't. On the other hand, Al Jezeer broadcasts anti American propaganda regularly, and I don't consider that a denunciation of terrorism at all. They promote hatred against the West on a regular basis. I'm not sayiong that the Western press is off the hook either, but it is happening.

Al-Jazeera is far from the only news source in the ME. And if you really want proper news, avoid any "media" kidna of...press-like people. If you want denounciation, your not gonna find it from any press. You need to go to the people that matter; the Muslims in the World, and the scholars/cleric or w/e. How many Muslims do you really know? See how many among them support terrorism... And search around the net, go onto Islamic boards, ask them if they support terrorism. Its Islam, and the Muslims that matter, ask them if they support it.

I believe that nationalism and religion have killed more humans than anything else in history, and I want no parts of either. God knows my heart, and if I'm to be dealt with in some afterlife, than God will inform me of my status. I don't need any humans telling me what God thinks, because they have no clue themselves. It's all speculation, and based information they have received from other humans, not God.

I also believe nationalism is evil...but not religion. I can't really address the rest of your comment...not a lot I can say...

I think if God really wrote a book about life, it would have been about 50 pages or less. That would have been plenty of room to tell why we're here, how to live, and where we're going. All the scriptures I've read have been written by humans, so I don't put my faith in them. People lie too much.

The Qur'an tells humans why we're here, how to live, and where we're going. So...? Oh, ,and you get versions which are less then 50 pages :D

You really should ask your parents about these sort of questions because they will answer it better to you then Slah or i can over the net.

I would explain it properly...but I can't be bothered. No offence to someone, but its a waste of time; following Allah's law is a basic fundamental of Islam, which can not be denied. Denying it, is an act of open kufr. I hope she sees her error and corrects it...

-Rashid786-

I would explain it properly...but I can't be bothered. No offence to someone, but its a waste of time; following Allah's law is a basic fundamental of Islam, which can not be denied. Denying it, is an act of open kufr. I hope she sees her error and corrects it...


kufar? this i disagree if i question my religion it doesn't mean i am a kafer...like you said god told us to seek knowledge- without questioning how do you gain knowledge

Betrade,

No offense, but isn't that exactly what you've been doing?

Clearly, you have little to no knowledge of The Holy Qur'an, Shari'a (Consensus, etc.) yet aren't you "trying to shove" your own view on another?

Why not just ask about Muslim practices that you are unsure of, instead of making assumptions that can only serve to promote the ignorance so prevalent today.

I think if you re-read your posts, you will see my point. This is not meant as an attack - I completely respect your thoughts. (I respect everyone's thoughts).

I am merely pointing out that the behavior you claim to detest is one in which you also (perhaps unwittingly) seem to particpate in.


If some of my my "facts" are wrong, I apologize, but I'm not trying to impose my views on anyone. I'm just stating them. I don't expect anyone to change their point of view on my account, nor do I want them too. I believe that we should live and let live, but I don't believe in painful, toterous executions for anyone, not even women who get pregnant by someone other than their husbands..

I'm just sick of ALL religions claiming to have a monopoly on truth, because I don't believe that any of them do. Scientists don't either for that matter.

kufar? this i disagree if i question my religion it doesn't mean i am a kafer...like you said god told us to seek knowledge- without questioning how do you gain knowledge

Seek knowledge about the World. OK, I see your point. You have questioned, and seeked...soke??? Anyway, you have seeked knowledge, and I'm giving it to you :D Shari'ah law is a BASIC fundamental of Islam. Allah commands in the Qur'an, that fornicators should be lashed 100 times. Muhammad(SAW) commands in the Hadith and sunnah, that adulteres should be stoned to death. The sunnah "dictates", that murderers are to be either forgiven or executed. (well, same for the other one as well...) How can you deny this? To be a Muslim, you must believe in Allah, Allah alone, and that Muhammad(SAW) is His messenger, and that he brings forth Allah's message. You must submit to Allah, and Allah alone, and this includes obeying Allah, and doing what Allah has commanded. Allah has told you what to do, via Muhammad(SAW). Yes, no?

*sigh*

-Rashid786-

Seek knowledge about the World. OK, I see your point. You have questioned, and seeked...soke??? Anyway, you have seeked knowledge, and I'm giving it to you :D Shari'ah law is a BASIC fundamental of Islam. Allah commands in the Qur'an, that fornicators should be lashed 100 times. Muhammad(SAW) commands in the Hadith and sunnah, that adulteres should be stoned to death. The sunnah "dictates", that murderers are to be either forgiven or executed. (well, same for the other one as well...) How can you deny this? To be a Muslim, you must believe in Allah, Allah alone, and that Muhammad(SAW) is His messenger, and that he brings forth Allah's message. You must submit to Allah, and Allah alone, and this includes obeying Allah, and doing what Allah has commanded. Allah has told you what to do, via Muhammad(SAW). Yes, no?

*sigh*

-Rashid786-

Can you give me ayat from the quraan and hadith so i can check them out...Also you didn't answer me about my other post about forgiveness in the quraan- what is the point of allah saying that he is a forgiver but then commands us to kill the wrongdooers?

Salah you can not call her a Kafer for asking what Shariah law is and if some of the laws may seem unfair.

Can you give me ayat from the quraan and hadith so i can check them out...Also you didn't answer me about my other post about forgiveness in the quraan- what is the point of allah saying that he is a forgiver but then commands us to kill the wrongdooers?

24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Azzaniyatu wazzanee fajlidoo kulla wahidin minhuma miata jaldatin wala takhuthkum bihima rafatun fee deeni Allahi in kuntum tuminoona billahi walyawmi alakhiri walyashhad AAathabahuma taifatun mina almumineen

الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُم بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ


The Qur'an, regarding lashing. Happy?

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 280:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

A man came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque, and called him, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but when the man gave four witnesses against himself, the Prophet said to him, "Are you mad?" The man said, "No." So the Prophet said (to his companions), "Take him away and stone him to death. "

Do you still disagree?

And KoK, kufr is that act, someone who commits kufr is a kaafir.

No, I can't for wanting to find out. I can for not believing in it all together.

And you know I'm Rashid, stop calling me Salah...I don't mind it from other people...but don't.

-Rashid786-

The Qur'an, regarding lashing. Happy?



Do you still disagree?

And KoK, kufr is that act, someone who commits kufr is a kaafir.

No, I can't for wanting to find out. I can for not believing in it all together.

And you know I'm Rashid, stop calling me Salah...I don't mind it from other people...but don't.

-Rashid786-

BTW we Shias don't really take hadith from Abu huraira- well i think we think he is not very accurate...nearly happy...i have to check them out in the quraan first..not that i don't trust you but just to check it in arabic

BTW we Shias don't really take hadith from Abu huraira- well i think we think he is not very accurate...nearly happy...i have to check them out in the quraan first..not that i don't trust you but just to check it in arabic

I gave you the Arabic. There are plenty sites out there that have the Arabic too. Start with Islamicity.

Why don't you trust Abu Huraira? :nonono: *sigh* There are plenty more.



Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

A Jew and Jewess were brought to the Prophet on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked the Jews, "What do you (usually) do with them?" They said, "We blacken their faces and disgrace them." He said, "Bring here the Torah and recite it, if you are truthful." They (fetched it and) came and asked a one-eyed man to recite. He went on reciting till he reached a portion on which he put his hand. The Prophet said, "Lift up your hand!" He lifted his hand up and behold, there appeared the verse of Ar-Rajm (stoning of the adulterers to death). Then he said, "O Muhammad! They should be stoned to death but we conceal this Divine Law among ourselves." Then the Prophet ordered that the two sinners be stoned to death and, and they were stoned to death, and I saw the man protecting the woman from the stones.

-Rashid786-

I gave you the Arabic. There are plenty sites out there that have the Arabic too. Start with Islamicity.


umm..yeah but my pc can't read the arabic for some reason...