http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:__kXE1v9ZwYJ:news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1939000/1939174.stm+%22red+army%22+%22%22gang+rape%22&hl=en

Red Army soldiers raped two million German women, and thousands of Soviet women in occupied Eastern Europe, says a book published on Monday.



It is a disgrace to have anything to do with this clear case of slander

Russian ambassador Grigory Karasin
The author of Berlin: The Downfall 1945, the acclaimed military historian Antony Beevor, also suggests that after brutalisation in extreme war situations almost all men are tempted to become rapists.

But the book has been condemned as an "act of blasphemy" by the Russian ambassador to the UK and its conclusions have also been rejected by a prominent Russian military historian.

Mr Beevor, whose previous book Stalingrad became a best-seller, says in Berlin alone it was estimated up to 130,000 women were raped, of whom up to 10,000 committed suicide.


The Red Army's sacrifices in World War II are still revered in Russia

Altogether two million German women are believed to have been raped and almost half of those suffered gang rape.

One woman was raped by 23 soldiers.

Mr Beevor said he was shocked by what he found during his research of German and Soviet archives.

He said the widespread rape suggested "there is a dark area of male sexuality which can emerge all too easily, especially in war, when there are no social and disciplinary restraints."

He said the Soviet hierarchy turned a blind eye, and even condoned the rape as a form of revenge for what the German Army - the Wehrmacht - had done during Operation Barbarossa.

One district commander told a group of German women who were seeking his protection: "That? Well, it certainly hasn't done you any harm. Our men are all healthy."

'Bonding process'

Mr Beevor said: "As the Red Army example shows, the practice of collective rape can even become a form of bonding process."

Ja....frau ist frau.


*That was my sarcastic post of quote to the "8 to 80" thread on this same topic.
Rape has been used as a punitive measure by conquering armies throughout history, and it is WRONG, just as wrong as blowing the brains out of someone defending their homeland. Rape is a war crime that should be prosecuted, and no army, including those of the US and Israel, should be above the law.

The Red Army had some funny attitudes like officially there were no Russians captured by the Germans so any Russian prisoners freed from the Germans during the Russian advance on the Eastern Front were regarded as traitors and German women regarded as "sluts" and "*****s" to the Germans. Indeed rape has always been used as a weapon in war and the Red Army made frequent use of it.

its because under leninism "ANY methods could be used to achieve the means". in other words ends justify the means.

Quote:its because under leninism "ANY methods could be used to achieve the means". in other words ends justify the means.


Is Leninism really the culprit here? So far as I know a LOT of armies over the years have commited rape.

I've always that it was fascinating that there were plenty of bok detailing the war crimes of the German Army duing WW2 (which were substantial & horrorific), but I've never seen a book detailing the war crimes of the allied forces during the war. I've seen allusions to certain things--the fire bombing of Dresden--but never any sustained works on the subject.

I find this book's thesis not the least bit astonishing. Hell, the Red Army would shoot its own troops if they retreated. I can't imagine that they would have a high regard for those they captured.

Ja....frau ist frau.


*That was my sarcastic post of quote to the "8 to 80" thread on this same topic.
Rape has been used as a punitive measure by conquering armies throughout history, and it is WRONG, just as wrong as blowing the brains out of someone defending their homeland. Rape is a war crime that should be prosecuted, and no army, including those of the US and Israel, should be above the law.

Someone getting there brains blown out defending their homeland?

A war crime?

Is every injury sustained during a war considered a war crime?

Someone getting there brains blown out defending their homeland?

A war crime?

Is every injury sustained during a war considered a war crime?

I didn't say it was a war crime, but ultimately wrong, just as wrong as a homeowner being slain by a burglar.

How much credibility can a book about rape have if it was authored by Mr Beevor? :|

but I've never seen a book detailing the war crimes of the allied forces during the war. I've seen allusions to certain things--the fire bombing of Dresden--but never any sustained works on the subject.

That is because you are not well read on the subject.

How much credibility can a book about rape have if it was authored by My Beevor? :|

Didn't know your beevor could write.

That is because you are not well read on the subject.

I'm not well read on many subjects, Invertebrate Zoology perhaps being the principal one.

So, please do enjoy whatever prestige points you fantasize that fact provides you, and then do something useful and tell us the name of a work that deals exclusively w/ the war crimes of the allied forces during WW2.

I would appreciate it. Thank you.

My pleasure.

Unser Jahrhundert -Deutsche Schicksalstage - Guido Knopp
Crimes and Mercies: The Fate Of German Civilians Under Allied Occupation, 1944-1950 - James Bacque
Other Losses - James Bacque
Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 - Frederick Taylor
A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans - Alfred-Maurice de Zayas

And so on. Antony Beevor is also an excellent resource, as are several German-language publications.

Here's a couple more for you prof:

Animals Without Backbones
by Ralph Buchsbaum, Mildred Buchsbaum, John Pearse, Vicki Pearse

The Invertebrates
by R. S. K. Barnes, Peter Calow, Peter Olive, David Golding, J. I. Spicer, Richard Barnes, R. S. K. Invertebrates Barnes

Invertebrate Zoology
by D. T. Anderson

My pleasure.

Crimes and Mercies: The Fate Of German Civilians Under Allied Occupation, 1944-1950 - James Bacque

Other Losses - James Bacque


Ah Potyondi! I'm surprised you included these two.....works.....but neglected to mention the equally scholarly work by David Irving, "The Destruction of Dresden" where half a million Germans supposedly died in one attack. :p

My pleasure.

Unser Jahrhundert -Deutsche Schicksalstage - Guido Knopp
Crimes and Mercies: The Fate Of German Civilians Under Allied Occupation, 1944-1950 - James Bacque
Other Losses - James Bacque
Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 - Frederick Taylor
A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans - Alfred-Maurice de Zayas

And so on. Antony Beevor is also an excellent resource, as are several German-language publications.

Thank you. I do appreciate it.

Does the Taylor work deal w/ more than the Dresden war crime?

No, but it's very thorough.

Ah Potyondi! I'm surprised you included these two.....works.....but neglected to mention the equally scholarly work by David Irving, "The Destruction of Dresden" where half a million Germans supposedly died in one attack. :p
Bacque may be a jilted ex-patriot kook, but there's no denying that humanitarian crimes occurred after the war. :p His is the only book I've found that investigates the issue, though.

Bacque may be a jilted ex-patriot kook, but there's no denying that humanitarian crimes occurred after the war. :p His is the only book I've found that investigates the issue, though.

I would say that the 'atrocities' committed by the Western Allies were about on the same level as the 'atrocities' the Western Allies committed in the first world war. :p

Maybe a notch higher, but basically in the same league. The scale of German and Soviet crimes makes any isolated acts by the Western Allies almost trivial.

I would say that the 'atrocities' committed by the Western Allies were about on the same level as the 'atrocities' the Western Allies committed in the first world war. :p

Maybe a notch higher, but basically in the same league. The scale of German and Soviet crimes makes any isolated acts by the Western Allies almost trivial.
Mmm, starving POWs is not all that different from what the Germans and Soviets did to one another. Scale isn't relevant as an indicator of significance to the families of victims.

But it's okay, Sulla. I see the good in you trying to escape the conservative shell with your half-hearted admissions of some wrongdoing. :p

No, but it's very thorough.

Beevor's book on the Spanish Civil War also looks good.

Mmm, starving POWs is not all that different from what the Germans and Soviets did to one another. Scale isn't relevant as an indicator of significance to the families of victims.


Sure it is, as a reflection of a state organized policy.

Furthermore, starving? :p 1400 calories a day is what they were eating in Paris and Vienna. Its unfortunate that German POWs had to have their food rations divided among the millions of displaced persons they themselves created, but few of them died from it.


But it's okay, Sulla. I see the good in you trying to escape the conservative shell with your half-hearted admissions of some wrongdoing.

Rubbish. :p

Sure it is, as a reflection of a state organized policy.
Falsified army records that are contradicted by Army Medical ETO reports seem fairly organised to me. The Morgenthau plan wasn't exactly random, either. :p

"The Morgenthau Plan for Germany [...] became part of the Potsdam Agreement, a solemn declaration of policy and undertaking for action... signed by the United States of America, Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics." - Henry Morgenthau, New York Post, 24 Nov, 1947

Furthermore, starving? :p 1400 calories a day is what they were eating in Paris and Vienna. Its unfortunate that German POWs had to have their food rations divided among the millions of displaced persons they themselves created, but few of them died from it.
400 calories a day for several months, the average being 1000, and losses in the tens to hundreds of thousands (subject to confirmation) are hardly few. Not that I sympathise with German war criminals or Nazis, but Americans have to follow the rules of war.



Rubbish.
Let go of your hate. :p

The reason the atrocities committed by Allies were not detailed and publicized as much is because 90 percent of them were committed in a military operation. Germans rounded ordinary people off the streets and deliberately killed them off. There were no military benefits to it. Rapes don't make an army win, they just did them to be mean to Germans. Tit for tat.

The US army didn't round civilians up for anything. Neither did British. Look at the statistics about who died on the Axis side, and you'll notice they were soldiers that died in bad conditions in a war camp. Enemy soldiers don't exactly get the 5 star hotel in a war. That happens everywhere.

Bombing a city is normal in a war. You can't really fight a war without going into a city. Dresden is brought up as "proof" of Allied atrocities. Firstly, the technology in 1940s was nothing. They couldn't target a building with missles, because in the 1940s there were no missles.

Secondly, the justification for mass bombing Dresden was the public went out and rebuilt the military bases so fast the US army had to bomb the houses instead to stop them from rebuilding everything.

The treatment of civilians on the US/British/French etc. side is completely different from the other side. That's why American soldiers are liked by Europeans today. Nobody resents them being there.

I've always that it was fascinating that there were plenty of bok detailing the war crimes of the German Army duing WW2 (which were substantial & horrorific), but I've never seen a book detailing the war crimes of the allied forces during the war. I've seen allusions to certain things--the fire bombing of Dresden--but never any sustained works on the subject.

I find this book's thesis not the least bit astonishing. Hell, the Red Army would shoot its own troops if they retreated. I can't imagine that they would have a high regard for those they captured.
sorry, but allies did do war crimes during WWII. the executions of sniper POWs are a great example.

yeah, but the american britsh "work" on the western front was miniscule. if they had gone thru what the russkies had gone thru there would have been my lays of europe. the shorter and smaller the operation- obviously lesser the "war crimes". if u look at the pacific, where americans engaged in brutal combat, then there were many atrocities(POWs shot, injured POWs killed, etc). if u dont do no sh*t, u dont commit no sh*t. :|

I've always that it was fascinating that there were plenty of bok detailing the war crimes of the German Army duing WW2 (which were substantial & horrorific), but I've never seen a book detailing the war crimes of the allied forces during the war. I've seen allusions to certain things--the fire bombing of Dresden--but never any sustained works on the subject.

I find this book's thesis not the least bit astonishing. Hell, the Red Army would shoot its own troops if they retreated. I can't imagine that they would have a high regard for those they captured.
Currently, I am reading Like a Cliff in the Ocean: The History of the 3. SS-Panzer-Division "Totenkopf", by Karl Ullrich which vividly describes how US Army soldiers opened fire on unarmmed SS troops as they surrendered. It also describes how the entire 3rd SS Division was turned over to the Soviets after the war and the barbaric treatment of these troops. The book was written from the German perspective and according to its author, the only dishonorable act committed by this unit occurred at La Palaise France where some 50 British prisoners were shot after they surrendered. The author also states that the British raised a white flag and when the germans approached they opened fire killing many german troops. For this reason there was a great deal of anger.

No mention in this book is made regarding the Concentration Camps, which the author claims was staffed by another section of the SS, or the activities of the Eisatzgruppe, or moble execution squads, the special commandos of the execution squads, of Dirlewanger's Penal battalions, whose anti partisan commandos behaved in a fashion so barbaric that they were an embarassment even to the SS.