http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210c&L=lowlands-l&F=&S=&P=4767

I found this article fascinating.

Jackson White origins
presented by the lecturer of the historical society with a Jackson White
aquaintance of mine as we were sipping Walter Fahloh's powerful schnapps.
This would have been around 1975, the year before I left the area. Andy
(last name omitted to protect the guilty) felt that the theory was a lot of
nonsense. However, he had no alternate theory to propose. Although I had
my doubts about it, I returned to acceptance of the theory in spite of many
doubts I had had. My doubts hinged on the fact that 200 prostitutes would
have had no difficulty in finding work in New York, which even then was a
wild city ( an article I had read in a newspaper stated that even in New
Amsterdam times, there were more bars than churches). And then too, I
reasoned that the lecturer must have done her homework and have researched
the question thoroughly. Maybe not though. Maybe she gave vent to the same
prejudices felt by the general population of the area.

I would like to add that in the lowland areas, Dutch names are extremely
frequent. I went to High School with many. No one though assumes though
that someone is a Jackson White merely because their name is Vreeland. That
distinction is reserved to the people who live in the mountains or who moved
from there.Making joking comments about the Jackson Whites was commonplace
in the area but I don't recall anyone with a Dutch surname doing so. I
wonder if the name and concept of Jackson Whites is not imposed by the
outsiders who have moved into the area who were not pleased with the obvious
mixed race status of the mountain people? In other words, that the Jackson
Whites were not a separate people but were part of the continuum of Dutch
decended people?

Jackson White status haunted people in the area and limited where they
could live, for eaxample. Mike Milligan moved down from the mountains years
ago and opened a successful construction business but he was limited as to
where he could buy a house in spite of the fact that he was quite affluent.
He bought a house in the area of the former Camp Midvale (which I used to
manage). The communists and former communists of the area were much more tolerant than the typical population of the area. ( Camp Midvale is another interesting story, Opened by German Naturfreunde in the early 20th century, the fight between the Nazi Bund and the German communists in the 1930's, the communists winning and kicking out the Nazis, etc.)

Regarding Jackson Whites having six fingers, there is some truth to that.
Squeek deGroat introduced me to his cousin, who unbidden showed me his
hands. There was a definite stub of a sixth finger next to his little
finger. He said that most people have them surgically removed but that he
decided to keep them.

One question I would have for anyone from Northern New Jersey, has anyone heard of these people. I did a web search and found considerable amount of debate regarding the Ramapo mountain people. In one message board a person said how he lived near them and they kept old cars, refrigerators and garbage in their yards and they hated outsiders, even to the point of threatening outsiders with guns if they saw them around.

But another poster who claimed to be from this group said that these steriotypes were racist garbage.

It sounds to me that a lot of the charges, that they are inbread and had high incidences of mental retardation and genetic tendencies like having six fingers were somewhat inflamitory. But it does make for interesting stories.

The history of the people depends on who tells the story. Many of these people say that they were decended from Indian tribes who intermarried with free blacks and white families. Another, less flattering story is how a group of female prostitutes were brought from the indies during the American Revolution. They were forced to leave New York and settled in New Jersey and mixed with the poorer mountain folk there. Because the prostitutes were brought by a British officer named Jackson, the people were often called "Jackson Whites" or "Jacks" which is considered an insult by these Ramapo people.

in the other trhead you sai they speak a form of dutch? wheres the dutch link? its interesting, never heard of it.

in the other trhead you sai they speak a form of dutch? wheres the dutch link? its interesting, never heard of it.
Oki, you already saw these links but to anyone else interested, I found this website where someone was discussing the history of the "Jersey Dutch" language which survived until fairly recently.

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210c&L=lowlands-l&F=&S=&P=1736

I have also attached a couple pictures of two Ramapo people Bob Van Dunk and Mozelle Van Dunk Stein. As you can see, they are rather attractive people who exhibit traits of Native American, African and European ancestory.

thanks again tom.

I live in North Jersey, and I had heard many stories of the Jackson and Whites. I had always thought it to be a family name with a hyphen or something along those lines who were inbred. A few years back I worked at a now defunct company called ICS. I worked with a few of the Van Dunks. At the time I had no idea of the relation between them and the Jackson Whites. I had just found out today that that term stemmed from Jacks and Whites, and that the Van Dunk's were one of the largest families from that area. I could see the mixed race features in one more than the other. I was so ignorant that I asked one of them who I was friends with at the company if he was related to the other. Now working elsewhere I mentioned their being a lot of people who shared the same name being in a particular area we were talking about. That is when I found out the meaning of the Jacks and Whites. The one I was friends with seemed a little slow, but a good guy. The other, well, seemed a little scummy, and I know she did quite a bit of drugs, but it seems like half of that company did. I dated a girl in the area who was also a little off. Maybe it was from the pmopton lakes area being polluted by dupont. Who knows. But I took trips to the area where the Jacks and Whites live and my eplorations were always interesting. Supposedly they still have one closed off community, but I am not sure exactly where it is. I am told its in ringwood. I am going to zabasearch.com to find out where it is.

I found a location for them.... van dunk ln, ringwood, nj

put that in maps.google.com

I live in North Jersey, and I had heard many stories of the Jackson and Whites. I had always thought it to be a family name with a hyphen or something along those lines who were inbred. A few years back I worked at a now defunct company called ICS. I worked with a few of the Van Dunks. At the time I had no idea of the relation between them and the Jackson Whites. I had just found out today that that term stemmed from Jacks and Whites, and that the Van Dunk's were one of the largest families from that area. I could see the mixed race features in one more than the other. I was so ignorant that I asked one of them who I was friends with at the company if he was related to the other. Now working elsewhere I mentioned their being a lot of people who shared the same name being in a particular area we were talking about. That is when I found out the meaning of the Jacks and Whites. The one I was friends with seemed a little slow, but a good guy. The other, well, seemed a little scummy, and I know she did quite a bit of drugs, but it seems like half of that company did. I dated a girl in the area who was also a little off. Maybe it was from the pmopton lakes area being polluted by dupont. Who knows. But I took trips to the area where the Jacks and Whites live and my eplorations were always interesting. Supposedly they still have one closed off community, but I am not sure exactly where it is. I am told its in ringwood. I am going to zabasearch.com to find out where it is.
Interesting.

I find the story of such peoples interesting.

The Ramapo people have similarities to other mixed race groups living on the east coast such as the Lumbees of North Carolina. Other mixed race isolates exist in Lousiana and Oklahoma. In Oklahoma, for instance there exists groups of black-indians who are mixed from black and indian tribes. Of particular interest are the "black seminoles" who were originally slaves of the Seminole people. Though dark in appearance, they spoke the Seminole language and adopted indian rather than white culture.

I used to live in NJ and way back in the late 1950's I used to fish the upper Wanaque River (near Greenwood Lake) My friend and I used to take a right turn onto a dirt road off of the main road that was parallel to the river to a section of the river called "The Minehole". It was a very deep hole, or pool, in this river at the bottom of a waterfall. Driving into the area we often saw people who my friend said were "Jackson Whites". There were quite a few families living adjacent to the creek in ramshackle cabins. They kept to themselves totally and when we were there we never saw them venture very far from from the area where the cabins were. It was kind of mysterious but I was just a young kid of 17 and while I was interested I didn't want to wind up getting my butt whipped for putting my nose where it didn't belong.

I used to live in NJ and way back in the late 1950's I used to fish the upper Wanaque River (near Greenwood Lake) My friend and I used to take a right turn onto a dirt road off of the main road that was parallel to the river to a section of the river called "The Minehole". It was a very deep hole, or pool, in this river at the bottom of a waterfall. Driving into the area we often saw people who my friend said were "Jackson Whites". There were quite a few families living adjacent to the creek in ramshackle cabins. They kept to themselves totally and when we were there we never saw them venture very far from from the area where the cabins were. It was kind of mysterious but I was just a young kid of 17 and while I was interested I didn't want to wind up getting my butt whipped for putting my nose where it didn't belong.
I have heard that they are very reclusive. Probibly that is why they were able to survive so long as a distinct people.

I am from ramapo. The people here are not reclusive. How would you expect people to act when other make special trips just to stare and gawk at the 'freaks'? The crap about 'jackson whites' coming from prostitutes is a total lie. Many geneologists have checked into this story and have found no basis. Seems most people have preconceived notions about who and what we are without knowing anything about us. We are the same as anyone else.

I am from ramapo. The people here are not reclusive. How would you expect people to act when other make special trips just to stare and gawk at the 'freaks'? The crap about 'jackson whites' coming from prostitutes is a total lie. Many geneologists have checked into this story and have found no basis. Seems most people have preconceived notions about who and what we are without knowing anything about us. We are the same as anyone else.
I heard similar things said about indians. I knew a dude who was native american but never told anyone. I asked him why and he told me that he did not live on a reservation and he was no different than anyone else. His life was no different than any other american so he did not feel a need to say anything else about i.

That's a real nice area of NJ. South along the Delaware from Frenchtown to Stockton are also scenic and friendly.

I have only visited Ramapo Mt., and I really can't comment on ethnic matters, but since this thread was mentioned I recall seing many Durch names on businesses, and the place is very neat, as in the Dutch tradition.

On the NY side, Ramapo Estates has a large Hassidic Jewish community.

I am from ramapo. The people here are not reclusive. How would you expect people to act when other make special trips just to stare and gawk at the 'freaks'? The crap about 'jackson whites' coming from prostitutes is a total lie. Many geneologists have checked into this story and have found no basis. Seems most people have preconceived notions about who and what we are without knowing anything about us. We are the same as anyone else.
I wanted to expand on what you were saying. I suppose I understand that people do not want to be gawked at as "freaks" and it was not my intention to describe the Ramapo people as being such. But I do find it fascinating to find such a unique culture in the United States. I am especially interested in the "Jersey Dutch " language which is supposedly extinct.

On a little-relevant sidenote, I know a Laotian guy with six fully functioning, working fingers. And toes, although I've never seen them I know his gf. Kinda creepy.

On a little-relevant sidenote, I know a Laotian guy with six fully functioning, working fingers. And toes, although I've never seen them I know his gf. Kinda creepy.
These days most people get thier extra digits removed. I myself think it would be cool to have six fingers. I think I can give extra pleasure to a woman that way. :D

We always used to joke about that. But no, I don't think that his 6th finger could have easily been removed through surgery. I mean, if you just glance quick at his hand, it would seem normal, its a fully functioning, normal looking 6th finger on each hand.

Oh, and this is a really fascinating topic, btw. Never heard of this group before in my life. And I thought I was well-read.... =/

When I was achild I visited my Aunt Birtha ijn Wanaque often She was bookkeeper at Camp Midvale and lived near it on Dale Road. In its old Commie days. She was a party member. She had tales of the Jackson WHIRES AS THEY WERE CALLED AT THE TIME {'50'S** She said they were descended from an Indian tribe, escaped slaves, and Hessian who didn't want to fight in the Americn revolution. I read in "Crime and Punishment in the NY Colony" that slaves escaped went to live with the Minisink Indiasn in NJ and if you look you will see the Minisink did live near there. It stands to reason that thru time white people of various sorts went to live there too