the origins?

you mean the folks here with the problem?

you mean the folks here with the problem?

They represent a wide phenomenon

because Arabs use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as the reason they hate the west.

Good question.

I've always wondered why many [not all] of my fellow lefties codemn sexism,anti-Semtism and violence against women,gays or Jews when any other walk of life engages in it,yet think it's ok when Palestinians do these things.:scratch:

I've always wondered why many [not all] of my fellow lefties codemn sexism,anti-Semtism and violence against women,gays or Jews when any other walk of life engages in it,yet think it's ok when Palestinians do these things.

1. Some leftists feel that it is politically incorect to critisize "people of color" and "expect as much from them as from white people". Ironically, Jews are not "white" either, and the majority of Israelis, in fact, have darker skins than Palestinians. But since most Jews in the west are "white" by skin color, some bigoted leftists assume that Israel is a while colonial imperialism or something.

2. Many leftists are going to bed with the radical muslim world, in a way because they are cowards and would not condemn violent regimes in the name of "religous diversity".

3. Some leftists just wanna be different from mainstream conservatives in everyway, and that includes support for Israel. But then again, they switch to the same team that includes far-right, who are much worse than neo-cons.

4. However the biggest reason, is the brainwashing propoganda that Israel discriminates against human rights and abuses poor palestinians. They think that it is South-Africa #2, but in reality, Israelis are the biggest victims. Arguably, the more intelegent liberal people who investigated closely the situation would more than likely switch to the pro-Israel side.

It's sad that such otherwsie thoughtful people totally ignore why there was/is a need for Israel in the first place.

Quote:
I've always wondered why many [not all] of my fellow lefties codemn sexism,anti-Semtism and violence against women,gays or Jews when any other walk of life engages in it,yet think it's ok when Palestinians do these things.

1. Some leftists feel that it is politically incorect to critisize "people of color" and "expect as much from them as from white people". Ironically, Jews are not "white" either, and the majority of Israelis, in fact, have darker skins than Palestinians. But since most Jews in the west are "white" by skin color, some bigoted leftists assume that Israel is a while colonial imperialism or something.

2. Many leftists are going to bed with the radical muslim world, in a way because they are cowards and would not condemn violent regimes in the name of "religous diversity".

3. Some leftists just wanna be different from mainstream conservatives in everyway, and that includes support for Israel. But then again, they switch to the same team that includes far-right, who are much worse than neo-cons.

4. However the biggest reason, is the brainwashing propoganda that Israel discriminates against human rights and abuses poor palestinians. They think that it is South-Africa #2, but in reality, Israelis are the biggest victims. Arguably, the more intelegent liberal people who investigated closely the situation would more than likely switch to the pro-Israel side.


Excellent post, and nails so much of it.


It's sad that such otherwsie thoughtful people totally ignore why there was/is a need for Israel in the first place.

Indeed, but how many have bothered to read up on the history of the Zionists from the late 19th century up until 1947, and how they began their moving into that area? It wasn't as a 'conquering army' by a long shot; the Jewish Agency worked by buying properties, and working out deals with all involved.

Good question.

I've always wondered why many [not all] of my fellow lefties codemn sexism,anti-Semtism and violence against women,gays or Jews when any other walk of life engages in it,yet think it's ok when Palestinians do these things.:scratch:

1. Some leftists feel that it is politically incorect to critisize "people of color" and "expect as much from them as from white people". Ironically, Jews are not "white" either, and the majority of Israelis, in fact, have darker skins than Palestinians. But since most Jews in the west are "white" by skin color, some bigoted leftists assume that Israel is a while colonial imperialism or something.

2. Many leftists are going to bed with the radical muslim world, in a way because they are cowards and would not condemn violent regimes in the name of "religous diversity".

3. Some leftists just wanna be different from mainstream conservatives in everyway, and that includes support for Israel. But then again, they switch to the same team that includes far-right, who are much worse than neo-cons.

4. However the biggest reason, is the brainwashing propoganda that Israel discriminates against human rights and abuses poor palestinians. They think that it is South-Africa #2, but in reality, Israelis are the biggest victims. Arguably, the more intelegent liberal people who investigated closely the situation would more than likely switch to the pro-Israel side.


Ah, the marvel of simplification...

TT - I don't know of anyone here who think it's OK for Palestinians to attack Israelis.

GFB
1. Very silly. Most people feel it's PI to criticize Israel because of the holocaust.
2. Also very silly. Just give me one example.
3. More silliness. Criticism of Israel doesn't put someone in the same corner as the extreme right.
4. Utter silliness. Compare the living standards in the two areas and explain to me why Israelis are the biggest victims.

Well, if we want to turn this into terms of left vs. right, I've always had something of an impression that the left occasionally, and perhaps only subconsciously, views victimization as something noble or virtuous. The virtue of the oppressed...And, as the Palestinians are worse off than the Israelis, there is a natural attraction to them for the left.

I'm not suggesting that the left enjoys seeing suffering, or that people should suffer, but rather that there is a pervasive gravitation of sympathy for those who claim to have been aggrieved and have little recourse. The criticism, I would have, for this sentiment, is that it shifts the concept of "fairness" to a convoluted direction in which judging the actions of people depends not on what those actions are, but who it is that takes part in such actions.

I think they should just make one country and live in harmony without race or religious favours but as one united nation

I think they should just make one country and live in harmony without race or religious favours but as one united nationum.... yeah.... gee why didn't anyone think of this earlier?

Well, if we want to turn this into terms of left vs. right, I've always had something of an impression that the left occasionally, and perhaps only subconsciously, views victimization as something noble or virtuous. The virtue of the oppressed...And, as the Palestinians are worse off than the Israelis, there is a natural attraction to them for the left.

I'm not suggesting that the left enjoys seeing suffering, or that people should suffer, but rather that there is a pervasive gravitation of sympathy for those who claim to have been aggrieved and have little recourse. The criticism, I would have, for this sentiment, is that it shifts the concept of "fairness" to a convoluted direction in which judging the actions of people depends not on what those actions are, but who it is that takes part in such actions.
It's a very Christian concept to cheer for the underdog.

I think they should just make one country and live in harmony without race or religious favours but as one united nation

This was actually the initial vision of the first Zionists in the early to mid 20th century. It was a very noble conception, but unfortunately it was corrupted by people like the murdering terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel, many of whom became high ranking Israeli officials later on.

A single state solution is impossible now, esp given then nature of the Israeli state. I posted an article here (that you people who believe Israel can do no wrong have ignored, as I knew you would :nice: ) about how Israel is about to approve Jews only communities. That's an indication of why a single state would never work now.

Well, if we want to turn this into terms of left vs. right, I've always had something of an impression that the left occasionally, and perhaps only subconsciously, views victimization as something noble or virtuous. The virtue of the oppressed...And, as the Palestinians are worse off than the Israelis, there is a natural attraction to them for the left.

I'm not suggesting that the left enjoys seeing suffering, or that people should suffer, but rather that there is a pervasive gravitation of sympathy for those who claim to have been aggrieved and have little recourse. The criticism, I would have, for this sentiment, is that it shifts the concept of "fairness" to a convoluted direction in which judging the actions of people depends not on what those actions are, but who it is that takes part in such actions.

I think you subconscioulsy admire the victimizers.
________________

I frankly reject the assumption of the question. I don't believe that most people are obsessed w/ Israel. In fact, I believe most people give it no thought at all for weeks, if not months, at a time.

Narcissism can occur in 2 ways. One is the attitude that "Most everyone is obsessed w/ me because they love me" and the other is "Most everyone is obsessed w/ me because they hate me." It might appear these viewpoints are different but really they are two side of the same coin. They both have this essential nature: they both assume that events somehow arrange themselves to make the narcissistic subject the center of attention. It is not too surprisng then when narcissists actually engage in behavior that does indeed give them much attention, which is precisely the point.

Here are my concerns about Israel:

1. My nation gives them my tax dollars for weapons that they use to murder and disenfranchise people. I don't like that. It's my money after all.

2. Although I don't give a damn about the Israeli govt (which is an awful govt in my view, not the worst one but in that neighborhood), I do care about the safety and well-being of the Israeli people. I don't think their govt has had that interest at heart and hasn't had it for quite a long time. If the USA and Israeli elites really wanted the Israeli people to live at peace with its neighbors, they could have managed it years ago.

3. I care about the Palestinian people. I think they have recieved a bum rap on the whole and they have been--oh, dare I use the word--victimized by Israel, the terrorist organizations among them, some of their leaders, and USA foreign policy. I believe they deserve their own nation just like the Israelis, that they deserve to live in peace and security just like the Israelis, that Jerusalem is just as important to them as it is to Israelis and that they and the Israelis should work that out.

4. I fundamentally believe that the Israeli people and the Palestinian people don't want to spend their lives murdering each other, burying their children from the constant bloodshed and want to lead happy and prosperous lives. And I think they BOTH deserve that.

As a Liberal I believe every person on earth has the basic Human right of the pursuit of life liberty and happiness. I do not beleive in the treatment of any individual differently based on their race or religion etc. I believe in the separation of religion and state. Israel, Iran and any country set up exclusively to benefit the members of a single religion I believe is wrong and looking for trouble. The creation of Israel has been a flash point in the middle east for 50+ years. The expulsion, fleeing or what ever you want to call it of the Palistinians disenfranchised millions of people and created a permanant refugee crisis in the area. If we want a solution to the problem the US being the only remaining superpower must take a fair and balanced approach to both parties in the dispute. It is not doing that at this time nor has it done it for the past 50 years. Until such time as it does this problem will fester. This problem is responsible at this time, I believe, for much of the unrest and terrorism in the middle east and has set up an us vs. them mentality between Islam and Judaisim.

If we want a solution it has to begin with a change in US policy in the middle east. And that means less support for Israel militarily and financially by us. The twenty first century will be, I beleive, an era in which the Nation state has far less importance and we will see the rise in power and importance of the regional alliances. This will mean that City states will grow and at some point in time become the real political powers. Casll me crazy but if you want to deal with the issues in the middle east both sides have to be treated fairly and equally and we are not doing that now.

It's a very Christian concept to cheer for the underdog.

indeed. but rooting for the underdog is entirely different from excusing the underdog for committing atrocities against innocent civilians.

I'm not suggesting that the left enjoys seeing suffering, or that people should suffer, but rather that there is a pervasive gravitation of sympathy for those who claim to have been aggrieved and have little recourse. The criticism, I would have, for this sentiment, is that it shifts the concept of "fairness" to a convoluted direction in which judging the actions of people depends not on what those actions are, but who it is that takes part in such actions.

I personally always try to determine what I consider fairness first, and then lend my sympathy (or not) - not the other way round.

Here are my concerns about Israel:

1. My nation gives them my tax dollars for weapons that they use to murder and disenfranchise people. I don't like that. It's my money after all.

2. Although I don't give a damn about the Israeli govt (which is an awful govt in my view, not the worst one but in that neighborhood), I do care about the safety and well-being of the Israeli people. I don't think their govt has had that interest at heart and hasn't had it for quite a long time. If the USA and Israeli elites really wanted the Israeli people to live at peace with its neighbors, they could have managed it years ago.

3. I care about the Palestinian people. I think they have recieved a bum rap on the whole and they have been--oh, dare I use the word--victimized by Israel, the terrorist organizations among them, some of their leaders, and USA foreign policy. I believe they deserve their own nation just like the Israelis, that they deserve to live in peace and security just like the Israelis, that Jerusalem is just as important to them as it is to Israelis and that they and the Israelis should work that out.

4. I fundamentally believe that the Israeli people and the Palestinian people don't want to spend their lives murdering each other, burying their children from the constant bloodshed and want to lead happy and prosperous lives. And I think they BOTH deserve that.

I agree with Anarky! :eek:

indeed. but rooting for the underdog is entirely different from excusing the underdog for committing atrocities against innocent civilians.
Since I have never in all my adult life seen someone do such a thing, I've come to consider this a hollow rhetorical point of the pro-Israel crowd.

Since I have never in all my adult life seen someone do such a thing, I've come to consider this a hollow rhetorical point of the pro-Israel crowd.

i'm quite surprised to find myself in the pro-Israel crowd, considering that I've been saying for months now that we should pull out all of our funding for Israel.

I think assumptions like this are a big part of the problem. Everyone assumes that by condemning one side, I must be supporting the other. We should all be condemning both sides!

I posted an article here (that you people who believe Israel can do no wrong have ignored, as I knew you would :nice: ) about how Israel is about to approve Jews only communities.

.

Probably it's because the "Israel is the devil - let's do everything to prove it" approach is a expression of this obsession - and obsessions soon got boring

Probably it's because the "Israel is the devil - let's do everything to prove it" approach is a expression of this obsession - and obsessions soon got boring

That's a cop out.

This legislation goes to the heart of the Israeli state, it's real feelings about democracy and justice.

I understand why you want to avoid it. It exposes the real nature of your government.

That's a cop out.

This legislation goes to the heart of the Israeli state, it's real feelings about democracy and justice.

I understand why you want to avoid it. It exposes the real nature of your government.

It's not a ledislation - it's a proposal. And if the supreme court says it's "kosher" - it is. Israeli supreme court is not in a habit of compromizing about equal right issues. But it is not something in your power to recognize, so I'm not going to say a futher word on this issue, as I sayd before - boring.

It's not a ledislation - it's a proposal.

Really? Then I guess the claim in this article must be wrong:

The High Court of Justice dismissed on Tuesday a petition seeking to prevent the Knesset from voting on a bill that would allow the establishment of communities for Jews only.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/505317.html


And if the supreme court says it's "kosher" - it is. Israeli supreme court is not in a habit of compromizing about equal right issues.

Right. :rolleyes: The Israeli Surpreme Court has no interest in ratifying the status quo and the nature of the Israeli state.

But it is not something in your power to recognize, so I'm not going to say a futher word on this issue, as I sayd before - boring.

You might be surprised what I am able to recognize. Like how it resembles practices we once had in the USA where certain neighborhoods were designated fror whites only, how black people weren't allowed to drink from water fountains that white people drank from, or the segregated arrangments on buses, etc.

You know--vicious racism.

Really? Then I guess the claim in this article must be wrong:





Right. :rolleyes: The Israeli Surpreme Court has no interest in ratifying the status quo and the nature of the Israeli state.



You might be surprised what I am able to recognize. Like how it resembles practices we once had in the USA where certain neighborhoods were designated fror whites only, how black people weren't allowed to drink from water fountains that white people drank from, or the segregated arrangments on buses, etc.

You know--vicious racism.

You make such a magnificent example.

You make such a magnificent example.


You are dodging and hiding again. You aren't fooling anyone. ;)

You are dodging and hiding again. You aren't fooling anyone. ;)

I'm staying right on the toppic - obsession with Israel. Or should I say - anti-israeli obsession.

It's not a ledislation - it's a proposal. And if the supreme court says it's "kosher" - it is. Israeli supreme court is not in a habit of compromizing about equal right issues. But it is not something in your power to recognize, so I'm not going to say a futher word on this issue, as I sayd before - boring.

not in his power to recognize? isn't that just a fancy way of saying "you'll never agree with me"...

well yeah of course he (and i) will never agree with you if your government wants to write descrimination into law.

Ah, the marvel of simplification...

TT - I don't know of anyone here who think it's OK for Palestinians to attack Israelis.


Well,I said more than that.

I'm speaking about blantant anti-Semitism [like quote"The Jews are dogs"] that Palestinans teach children in their schools.

I'm talking about blatant sexism like stoning women for not wearing the veil.

I'm talking about beaheadings ofr sexual practices or sexual orentations the PA does not approve of.

I'm talking about how some of my fellow lefties giving the Palestinians a pass on all of these things and condemning Isreal which is a socially liberal democracy.

Once again,no one goes into why a Jewish state was/is needed.





This was actually the initial vision of the first Zionists in the early to mid 20th century. It was a very noble conception, but unfortunately it was corrupted by people like the murdering terrorists who blew up the King David Hotel, many of whom became high ranking Israeli officials later on.


The Palestinians were foffered a sate in 1948,they said "no" because they thought their Arab neighbors would suceed where Hitler failed.


A single state solution is impossible now, esp given then nature of the Israeli state. I posted an article here (that you people who believe Israel can do no wrong have ignored, as I knew you would :nice: ) about how Israel is about to approve Jews only communities. That's an indication of why a single state would never work now.


There has to be a Jewish sate as refuge against anti-Semtism.


Here are my concerns about Israel:

1. My nation gives them my tax dollars for weapons that they use to murder and disenfranchise people. I don't like that. It's my money after all.


The way I see it is the Palestinans are the cold blooded murderers,the Israleis are defending themselves.

2. Although I don't give a damn about the Israeli govt (which is an awful govt in my view, not the worst one but in that neighborhood), I do care about the safety and well-being of the Israeli people. I don't think their govt has had that interest at heart and hasn't had it for quite a long time. If the USA and Israeli elites really wanted the Israeli people to live at peace with its neighbors, they could have managed it years ago.


Nothing to back this up.

The fact is the Palestians were offered their own state twice,all they had to do was say Isreal had the rigth to exsit,both time the Palerstians said "no".


3. I care about the Palestinian people. I think they have recieved a bum rap on the whole and they have been--oh, dare I use the word--victimized by Israel, the terrorist organizations among them, some of their leaders, and USA foreign policy. I believe they deserve their own nation just like the Israelis, that they deserve to live in peace and security just like the Israelis, that Jerusalem is just as important to them as it is to Israelis and that they and the Israelis should work that out.


The very same Palestinian people that give women less rigths than livestock?

The very same Palestinian people that teach anti-Semitism in their schools?

The very same Palestinian people who advocate death for gays and lesbians ?

I think it's hyprocisy to Jesuslanders for codemn anti-Semitism,sexism and homophobia and then lionise Palestinans who are guilty of those very things.

By the way,I do think Jerusalem should be equally owned by Christians,Jews and Muslems.

4. I fundamentally believe that the Israeli people and the Palestinian people don't want to spend their lives murdering each other, burying their children from the constant bloodshed and want to lead happy and prosperous lives. And I think they BOTH deserve that.

I do think they both deserve that,but it's up to the Palestinians to either stop the murders or to stop maiking heroes out of those who do.

It's also up to Palestinians to modernize .

As a Liberal I believe every person on earth has the basic Human right of the pursuit of life liberty and happiness. I do not beleive in the treatment of any individual differently based on their race or religion etc. I believe in the separation of religion and state. Israel, Iran and any country set up exclusively to benefit the members of a single religion I believe is wrong and looking for trouble.



The problem with your premise is Israel is not a religious sate.

It is a Jewish state as in ethnicity,it is not a state of Judasim.


If we want a solution it has to begin with a change in US policy in the middle east. And that means less support for Israel militarily and financially by us. The twenty first century will be, I beleive, an era in which the Nation state has far less importance and we will see the rise in power and importance of the regional alliances. This will mean that City states will grow and at some point in time become the real political powers. Casll me crazy but if you want to deal with the issues in the middle east both sides have to be treated fairly and equally and we are not doing that now.

If there is not a sate of Isreal ,then it's very likely another Holocaust will happen.


End anti-Semtism,then there will be no need for Isreal.

Everyone assumes that by condemning one side, I must be supporting the other. We should all be condemning both sides!

Ah, there's some sense in you! :nice:

Well,I said more than that.

I'm speaking about blantant anti-Semitism [like quote"The Jews are dogs"] that Palestinans teach children in their schools.

Want to hear how the Israeli settlers think about Palestinians, for example?

Extremism, from either side, only makes matters worse. It's the people that support one group of the extremists in an attempt to battle the other group of extremists that mess things up.

not in his power to recognize? isn't that just a fancy way of saying "you'll never agree with me"...



Actually it is not. There are many people here that never agree with me about Israel, that this this expression is not suiting them.

I think you subconscioulsy admire the victimizers.

You wouldn't make a very good psychologist, Anarky.

:p

Want to hear how the Israeli settlers think about Palestinians, for example?

Extremism, from either side, only makes matters worse. It's the people that support one group of the extremists in an attempt to battle the other group of extremists that mess things up.

You are comparing the most extrem part of population prived opinions with mainstrem media and general education stand.

You wouldn't make a very good psychologist, Anarky.

:p

Maybe in the reverse psychology field.

You are comparing the most extrem part of population prived opinions with mainstrem media and general education stand.

:confused:

:confused:

You are comparing what the settlers think with what palestinian oficial television is showing.
The real comparison must be: official TV versus official TV, mainsream media versus mainstream media, most extreem part of population versus..., mainstream population opinion versus... - and so on.

What are the origins of coral's obsession with Israel?

What are the origins of coral's obsession with Israel?

I'm less obsessed with this issue then some here are...

And I'm less obsessed than you since I don't post in every single thread about it, so the question remains.

You are comparing what the settlers think with what palestinian oficial television is showing.

Where did I do that? I don't watch Palestinian television...

What are the origins of coral's obsession with Israel?

Coral is from Isreal, so the obession is just nationalism. :)

Coral is from Isreal, so the obession is just nationalism. :)
It's some sort of insane, jingoistic, zealous nationalism then, since no one defends every single action their country takes. Looks more like extreme Zionism to me. The fact that she views every attack on Israel as an attack on Jews or anti-semitism or whatever also suggests that she subconsciously views Jewishness as a nationality, or at the very least intimately links her country and her religion/ethnicity.

It's some sort of insane, jingoistic, zealous nationalism then, since no one defends every single action their country takes. Looks more like extreme Zionism to me. The fact that she views every attack on Israel as an attack on Jews or anti-semitism or whatever also suggests that she subconsciously views Jewishness as a nationality, or at the very least intimately links her country and her religion/ethnicity.

Thats a lot of words...:D Yeah Coral does defend Isreal, but I would assume thats a national reaction to attack, simply because of the environment the country lives in. Or maybe its whatever you said means...:D j/k

It's some sort of insane, jingoistic, zealous nationalism then, since no one defends every single action their country takes. Looks more like extreme Zionism to me. The fact that she views every attack on Israel as an attack on Jews or anti-semitism or whatever also suggests that she subconsciously views Jewishness as a nationality, or at the very least intimately links her country and her religion/ethnicity.

I feel my country is unfairly attacked - I defend it. What's is here not to understand.
To say that Israel is constantly and unfairly attacked and to look for the reasons to it is not the same that to say that every israeli action it right - something I never claimed.

I suggests that she subconsciously views Jewishness as a nationality

Not subconsciously.

It's some sort of insane, jingoistic, zealous nationalism then...

I believe in the right of jews to live as a majority in their own country.
I believe in the same right for palestinians
What's so "insane, jingoistic, zealous" about it.

Where did I do that? I don't watch Palestinian television...

I think you know exactly what I mean.

I feel my country is unfairly attacked - I defend it. What's is here not to understand.
To say that Israel is constantly and unfairly attacked and to look for the reasons to it is not the same that to say that every israeli action it right - something I never claimed.
I think you project the reasons because of your own neuroses. You may link Judaism with Israel, but to many of its critics, Israel is just another country and its Jewish character has nothing to do with their criticisms. So to call those people anti-semitic is really just paranoia, not 'looking for the reasons'.

How is it unfairly attacked?
I believe in the right of jews to live as a majority in their own country.
I believe in the same right for palestinians
What's so "insane, jingoistic, zealous" about it.
It's certainly zealous because you take it to ludicrous degrees. I've not once seen you condemn your country for anything it has done.

I think you project the reasons because of your own neuroses. You may link Judaism with Israel, but to many of its critics, Israel is just another country and its Jewish character has nothing to do with their criticisms. So to call those people anti-semitic is really just paranoia, not 'looking for the reasons'..

Actually I wasn't linking it untill about a year on DA. I was just wandering. You guys brought me to this conllusion :)

It's certainly zealous because you take it to ludicrous degrees. I've not once seen you condemn your country for anything it has done.

You didn't see it much, and probably would not see much.
I suppose it because in most discussions here my country gets enough condemnation without me.

How is it unfairly attacked?



Name a subject and I will explain.
But behind the details there is one subject that makes me think that way more then everything else - the lack of recognition that is Israel is fighting now a defence war against terror and its actions must be judged in this framework.

Actually I wasn't linking it untill about a year on DA. I was just wandering. You guys brought me to this conllusion :)
"Us guys" made you believe that Judaism and Israel are inextricable? You have a persecution complex, then.
You didn't see it much, and probably would not see much.
I suppose it because in most discussions here my country gets enough condemnation without me.
So even if you condemn something, you'll still defend it just to balance the equation?

"So even if you condemn something, you'll still defend it just to balance the equation?

No, mostly I'm just shouting up. Or bringing other point of view without taking sides.

"Us guys" made you believe that Judaism and Israel are inextricable? You have a persecution complex, then.


I think that I allready explained it in other places.
After folowing the DA disscutions I did came to the conclusion that the root of the overcomplicated attitude to Israel, not only negative BTW , (not buying a liittle bit this "Israel is treated as every other country" statement - if it would be this way - Israel will be in few rouds in last pages of western newpapers as it should) is laying in the long historic rival between Judaism and Crhstianity, with the addition of feelling connected to Holocaust, that in this days is finding such an outlet.

And if I do have a persecution complex - it doesn't mean that I should be wrong.

when I talk about Israel I am talking about just that, the actions of a country. I don't take the view that country is owed anything because of past actions against the type of people who live there, and I don't view it as a religion. its a country and I hold it to the same standards I hold every other country in the world.

Hugs

lilnymph

when I talk about Israel I am talking about just that, the actions of a country. I don't take the view that country is owed anything because of past actions against the type of people who live there, and I don't view it as a religion. its a country and I hold it to the same standards I hold every other country in the world.

Hugs

lilnymph

As I allready told you before - I don't suspect YOU in being driven by unconcious antisemitism, I do get from you an impression of healthy attitude.
(And I would not say it if I would not mean - I'm the kind of hypocrite, that is sometimes not saying what he think, not the kind that is saying what he don't mean :) )
But I do suspect BBC, and you are getting a lot of information through them.

But I do suspect BBC, and you are getting a lot of information through them.

See the other thread for my views on the bbc. And anyway, as I have said in posts about NI (which you may not have read), I make it a point never to believe the media 100%. I always look at other things, and other points of view aswell, and try to get first hand info. My views on Israel are definatly not simplely gained from the BBC.

Hugs

lilnymph

My views on Israel are definatly not simplely gained from the BBC.

Hugs

lilnymph

Have not doubt about it.

Well,I said more than that.

I'm speaking about blantant anti-Semitism [like quote"The Jews are dogs"] that Palestinans teach children in their schools.

I'm talking about blatant sexism like stoning women for not wearing the veil.

I'm talking about beaheadings ofr sexual practices or sexual orentations the PA does not approve of.

I'm talking about how some of my fellow lefties giving the Palestinians a pass on all of these things and condemning Isreal which is a socially liberal democracy.

Once again,no one goes into why a Jewish state was/is needed.





The Palestinians were foffered a sate in 1948,they said "no" because they thought their Arab neighbors would suceed where Hitler failed.


There has to be a Jewish sate as refuge against anti-Semtism.



The way I see it is the Palestinans are the cold blooded murderers,the Israleis are defending themselves.


Nothing to back this up.

The fact is the Palestians were offered their own state twice,all they had to do was say Isreal had the rigth to exsit,both time the Palerstians said "no".


The very same Palestinian people that give women less rigths than livestock?

The very same Palestinian people that teach anti-Semitism in their schools?

The very same Palestinian people who advocate death for gays and lesbians ?

I think it's hyprocisy to Jesuslanders for codemn anti-Semitism,sexism and homophobia and then lionise Palestinans who are guilty of those very things.

By the way,I do think Jerusalem should be equally owned by Christians,Jews and Muslems.


I do think they both deserve that,but it's up to the Palestinians to either stop the murders or to stop maiking heroes out of those who do.

It's also up to Palestinians to modernize .



The problem with your premise is Israel is not a religious sate.

It is a Jewish state as in ethnicity,it is not a state of Judasim.



If there is not a sate of Isreal ,then it's very likely another Holocaust will happen.


End anti-Semtism,then there will be no need for Isreal.


TT is right, top to bottom this post.

TT is right, top to bottom this post.

Ah, welcome!

:)

Want to hear how the Israeli settlers think about Palestinians, for example?


I already know about it and don't approve.

But I think even that is better than teaching racism [ virtually all Palestinians do not say "Israeli" instead of "Jew"],sexism ,violence etc.that the Palestinans are guilty of is worse.

Yet people like you do not condemn Palestinian racism ,sexism,homopohbia,hell,you don't even condemn Palestinian on Palestinan violence,instead people like you dump it ALL on Israel.

You even had the chance to do so in response to my post and you didn't do that,you just said "What about the Isrealis",which seems to justify Palestinian racism and other forms of bigotry by sadly the majority of Palestinans.


Extremism, from either side, only makes matters worse. It's the people that support one group of the extremists in an attempt to battle the other group of extremists that mess things up.

No argument from me,the issue is what I think Israel is presently doing [and I do admit that Israel pre-1967 did many things it shouldn't have] is self-defense.

People do have the right to defend themselves.

I feel my country is unfairly attacked - I defend it. What's is here not to understand.
To say that Israel is constantly and unfairly attacked and to look for the reasons to it is not the same that to say that every israeli action it right - something I never claimed.
Israel is not my contry and I feel the same way about it.

when I talk about Israel I am talking about just that, the actions of a country. I don't take the view that country is owed anything because of past actions against the type of people who live there, and I don't view it as a religion. its a country and I hold it to the same standards I hold every other country in the world.

Hugs

lilnymph
You know what?

That is how I feel too [thugh the conclusions I come to may differ from yours].

As I allready told you before - I don't suspect YOU in being driven by unconcious antisemitism, I do get from you an impression of healthy attitude.
(And I would not say it if I would not mean - I'm the kind of hypocrite, that is sometimes not saying what he think, not the kind that is saying what he don't mean :) )
But I do suspect BBC, and you are getting a lot of information through them.
And while I do feel Mr. Anarky is misguided on this issue [and virtually only on this issue] I do not think he's an anti-Semite.
TT is right, top to bottom this post.

Thanks Spab.

Yet people like you do not condemn Palestinian racism ,sexism,homopohbia,hell,you don't even condemn Palestinian on Palestinan violence,instead people like you dump it ALL on Israel.

I'm sorry, but I'm quite unaware of that. I cannot comment on something I know nothing about.

Apart from that I don't comment on Israeli internal affairs either. I take the actions of both sides on face value and judge them accordingly. Sorry to burst your bubble - I'm not an anti-semite...

You even had the chance to do so in response to my post and you didn't do that,you just said "What about the Isrealis",which seems to justify Palestinian racism and other forms of bigotry by sadly the majority of Palestinans.

Too bad you didn't quite get the remark Extremism, from either side, only makes matters worse. just below the line you quoted, which clearly implies I condemn extremisim from either side.

People do have the right to defend themselves.

Again something I never denied. Time and again now I have said I'm not opposed to self-defense, but to the way Israel feels it is allowed to defend itself. Willfully targeting civilians by demolishing homes, destroying orchards and denying them acces to their workplace and hospitals and such is simply not done.

It's certainly zealous because you take it to ludicrous degrees. I've not once seen you condemn your country for anything it has done.

Is condemning ones own country a requirement for being part of the cool school?

Is condemning ones own country a requirement for being part of the cool school?

It depends on what country it is, I quess.

What most people don't realize is that the Palestinians are better off with Israel there. Before Israel, the Palestinians were by and large starving and living in dirt. They had no jobs to get to. And now they have improved education and housing. It is not the will of the Palestinian people as a whole, in my opinion, but the will of a select few that create the violent situation the Israelis are responding to. Unfortunately the whole of the Palestinian people allow the behavior of the few. Therefore they will, and should be punished along with the direct aggressors.

Too bad you didn't quite get the remark Extremism, from either side, only makes matters worse. just below the line you quoted, which clearly implies I condemn extremisim from either side.
.

What you are saying most of the times sounds something like that "Ye,ye, I do condemn terror against Israelis, now let's go to the real business - the endless list of israelis wrongs!.

Like most anyone who follows the news with any sort of regularity, I'm familiar with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and its history. I must admit, though, that I'm quite ignorant about the country of Israel itself. I'm not sure how its government works or the strengths and weaknesses of its economy. Does Israel even manufacture and export anything of note or is most of its money made through tourism? I know there are religious hardliners there, but is the average Israeli citizen particularly religious? Is it possible to be a Jewish atheist?

Casting back through my mind, I can't remember ever having had any in depth teachings about the workings of the country aside from its general history; I guess it's time to educate myself. Catching the news when a pizza parlor gets bombed or a Rachel Corrie gets plowed under by a bulldozer isn't exactly a comprehensive education.

What you are saying most of the times sounds something like that "Ye,ye, I do condemn terror against Israelis, now let's go to the real business - the endless list of israelis wrongs!.

Once again, your usual ploy. You refuse to discuss the subject matter of those who disagree w/ you (and for good reason since the actions of your nation are often indefensible). Instead, you object to the FACT that someone disagrees w/ you by claiming that it can all be dismissed as an example of bias. It's just a way of stiffling dissent. Nothing more.


Apart from that I don't comment on Israeli internal affairs either. I take the actions of both sides on face value and judge them accordingly. Sorry to burst your bubble - I'm not an anti-semite...

Of course you do as does most everyone here who condemns some of the actions of Israel from time-to-time. But you see the problem is that any criticism of Israel is wrong by definition to these people. Interestingly, TT has even dated the period at which criticism of Israel is wrong apriori. Although he is willing to condemn some of Israel's actions before 1967 (I believe that was the date he gave), anything they've done since then is perfectly OK. Imagine that as an argument. Somehow magically after a certain date it became completely impossible in the nature of things for Israel to commit any crimes or do any wrongs. Such a wild notion boggles belief.

Too bad you didn't quite get the remark Extremism, from either side, only makes matters worse. just below the line you quoted, which clearly implies I condemn extremisim from either side.

Yes, they glide over remarks like that time & time again. They do the same w/ mine. You can tell them ad nauseum that you hate the suicide bombers who kill innoccent people, that you condemn anti-senticism and think it is a real problem, that you support the right of Israel to live safely and happily w/i its own boundaries and to defend itself, and you can even commiserate w/ Israelis when a murderous act of terrorism befalls the Israeli people--you can do all that but they forget it all, ignore every bit of it, if you say that you think Israel should stop trying to steal land from the Palestinians, that Israeli soilders should stop shooting Pal children walking to school, that they should stop targeting houses filled w/ innocent people because they want to kill one terrorist inside, that they should stop knocking down people's homes and making elderly persons and children homeless and so on. Oh, no, don't dare for one moment share an ounce of sympathy for the Palestinian people, don't come to their defense on any matter whatsoever and, whatever you do, don't even hint that Israel is capable of doing wrong--no, no, you mustn't do that because any position like that (that is, any consistent moral position that applies the same moral yardstick to Israel that one applies to the Pals) is just wrong by definition. It's a heresy to these Israel cultists.

I say it is blatant and indefensible moral hypocrisy.

Like most anyone who follows the news with any sort of regularity, I'm familiar with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and its history. I must admit, though, that I'm quite ignorant about the country of Israel itself. I'm not sure how its government works or the strengths and weaknesses of its economy. Does Israel even manufacture and export anything of note or is most of its money made through tourism? I know there are religious hardliners there, but is the average Israeli citizen particularly religious? Is it possible to be a Jewish atheist?

Casting back through my mind, I can't remember ever having had any in depth teachings about the workings of the country aside from its general history; I guess it's time to educate myself. Catching the news when a pizza parlor gets bombed or a Rachel Corrie gets plowed under by a bulldozer isn't exactly a comprehensive education.

I'm a jewish agnostic, I think.
But yes, plenty of jewich atheists. I think most of the population, at least jewish, is secular.
Strong on science, on hitec.
Most advanced laws about gays rights, womens rights and so on - not so advanced application, I afraid.

What most people don't realize is that the Palestinians are better off with Israel there. Before Israel, the Palestinians were by and large starving and living in dirt. They had no jobs to get to. And now they have improved education and housing. It is not the will of the Palestinian people as a whole, in my opinion, but the will of a select few that create the violent situation the Israelis are responding to. Unfortunately the whole of the Palestinian people allow the behavior of the few. Therefore they will, and should be punished along with the direct aggressors.

It took them 4 years of intifada - but now their economic situation got worsre then in Jordan. I do got anyway a general feeling that now they are slipping back to sanity.

Coral100cor,

Maybe you could help me with this... (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68038)

Coral100cor,

Maybe you could help me with this... (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68038)

I afraid I can't really.
It can be every head cover btw.
The expalnations why - just a tradition, maybe coming from hot climate in Israel, heard a religious meaning explanation that a man has always to remember that is someone (god) above him.
If I found out something more - I will let you know.

I afraid I can't really.
It can be every head cover btw.
The expalnations why - just a tradition, maybe coming from hot climate in Israel, heard a religious meaning explanation that a man has always to remember that is someone (god) above him.
If I found out something more - I will let you know.Thank you. :)

I'm sorry, but I'm quite unaware of that. I cannot comment on something I know nothing about.


Maybe you should learn about it,it might help you understand better what the situation is about.


I'm not an anti-semite...


I don't think you are an anti-Semite either, I just think you are unknowingly playing into their hands.


Too bad you didn't quite get the remark Extremism, from either side, only makes matters worse. just below the line you quoted, which clearly implies I condemn extremisim from either side.


But I've never heard you comment or post on Palestinian extrmeism,just Israel


Again something I never denied. Time and again now I have said I'm not opposed to self-defense, but to the way Israel feels it is allowed to defend itself. Willfully targeting civilians by demolishing homes, destroying orchards and denying them acces to their workplace and hospitals and such is simply not done.

Those homes harbor terrorsits.






Of course you do as does most everyone here who condemns some of the actions of Israel from time-to-time. But you see the problem is that any criticism of Israel is wrong by definition to these people. Interestingly, TT has even dated the period at which criticism of Israel is wrong apriori. Although he is willing to condemn some of Israel's actions before 1967 (I believe that was the date he gave), anything they've done since then is perfectly OK. Imagine that as an argument. Somehow magically after a certain date it became completely impossible in the nature of things for Israel to commit any crimes or do any wrongs. Such a wild notion boggles belief.


I never said that everything Israel [or idividual Israleis ,which is differing from government policy] is ok since '67.

But yes,I do think most[not all] of Isreal's actions from '67 on have been justified.




Coral100cor,

Maybe you could help me with this... (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68038)

The way I understand it,it means "deference to God"

Maybe you should learn about it,it might help you understand better what the situation is about.

I don't need to learn the details to be able to somewhat understand how warped people are that are born into a situation of war and that have never seen anything else in their entire lives.

But instead of blaming and condemning them for it, I realize that they can't really help thinking the way they do. This situation is all they know, and it's not changing anytime soon. This is, in my eyes, one of the main reasons why this conflict is far from over.

I don't think you are an anti-Semite either, I just think you are unknowingly playing into their hands.

Well, I don't think you're a ultra-nationalist Israeli, but I also don't think you're playing into their hands. You just have your own personal opinion, unrelated to any extremist group. The same goes for me.

But I've never heard you comment or post on Palestinian extrmeism,just Israel

Then you haven't been paying attention. :shrug:

Those homes harbor terrorsits.

So? Even if that were the case - which I doubt - does that justify destroying an entire building, including the homes and possessions of a dozen families who just happen to live there?

The answer to the above question is crucial to this discussion.

Is condemning ones own country a requirement for being part of the cool school?
Moral objectivity is cool.
It depends on what country it is, I quess.
Blah blah, I'm tired of these little one-liners from the sidelines. When my country does wrong, I'm vocal about it. You're not a victim, so quit acting like one.

I think that I allready explained it in other places.
After folowing the DA disscutions I did came to the conclusion that the root of the overcomplicated attitude to Israel, not only negative BTW , (not buying a liittle bit this "Israel is treated as every other country" statement - if it would be this way - Israel will be in few rouds in last pages of western newpapers as it should)
I don't know what you read, but Israel generally doesn't make the front page here. It's treated like every other civilised, democratic nation and as such, is held to a higher standard than its neighbours because it proclaims itself so.

is laying in the long historic rival between Judaism and Crhstianity,
Pfft, garbage. Israel's largest support in America (aside from Jews) comes from Christians.

with the addition of feelling connected to Holocaust, that in this days is finding such an outlet.
I don't happen to believe that people want to exorcise their guilt over the Holocaust by making Jews out to be demons, especially since the 90% of the world that criticises Israel didn't participate in it. I do believe that 100% of the world is outraged when Israel launches missiles into apartment buildings or bulldozes homes with wheelchair-bound seniors still inside. It's really not all that complicated.

And if I do have a persecution complex - it doesn't mean that I should be wrong.
Yes it does. There is no conspiracy theory. You are simply projecting your victimhood onto others by claiming they are oppressing you.

Pfft, garbage. Israel's largest support in America (aside from Jews) comes from Christians.

That's one of the reasons for me to see it his way.
It's a part of the same phenomenon. Special negative or positive relation to Israel, depends on the religious interpretation.

That's one of the reasons for me to see it his way.
It's a part of the same phenomenon. Special negative or positive relation to Israel, depends on the religious interpretation.
Well then, you can be happy in the knowledge that Catholics don't really care that much about Israel one way or the other, and they constitute the bulk of the Christian world. :)

Yes it does. There is no conspiracy theory.

Never said it was.

I don't know what you read, but Israel generally doesn't make the front page here. It's treated like every other civilised, democratic nation and as such, is held to a higher standard than its neighbours because it proclaims itself so.



I read Israeli connected threads apparently.

Then Israel should be treated like civilised, democratic nation in war for it's very existance against enemy who has no restrictions of means - situation other "civilized, democratic" countries are not in for long time, and they have no idea, how will they behave in now (my guess - much worse then Israel).
Must say, they didn't showed much nobelty in such situations in the past.
And yes - I know Israel is not in existance danger anymore - it is allready clear for two last years - but it is because we are figthing the war and winning.

Well then, you can be happy in the knowledge that Catholics don't really care that much about Israel one way or the other, and they constitute the bulk of the Christian world. :)

Thank god for the little favors! :)

Are you a catholic?

Then Israel should be treated like civilised, democratic nation in war for it's very existance against enemy who has no restrictions of means...

Really? I haven't seen Palestinians tanks or gunships firing into Israeli neighbourhoods for quite a while. I also haven't seen Israeli homes being destroyed by Palestinian bulldozers either, come to think of it. :eek7:

Really? I haven't seen Palestinians tanks or gunships firing into Israeli neighbourhoods for quite a while. I also haven't seen Israeli homes being destroyed by Palestinian bulldozers either, come to think of it. :eek7:

Have actually no idea what your point is.

enemy who has no restrictions of means...

Main Entry: mean
Function: noun

plural : resources available for disposal; especially : material resources affording a secure life

You are saying the Palestinians have no restriction of resources available.

i think she was trying to say that Palestinians will use whatever means are available to them. i.e they are not restricted by any need to avoid civilian casualties.

i think she was trying to say that Palestinians will use whatever means are available to them. i.e they are not restricted by any need to avoid civilian casualties.

Exactly.

I really didn't expalined it well.

So? Even if that were the case - which I doubt - does that justify destroying an entire building, including the homes and possessions of a dozen families who just happen to live there?

The answer to the above question is crucial to this discussion.

Why are those families allowing terrorists to hide in their homes?

I know I wouldn't let them hide in mine.

If we all agree that the terrorists must go[I sure hope we agree on that],then how else can the Israelies do it?

I find it interesting how many people seem to think that Palestinan women are as opressed as women in other Muslim nations.

As for suicide bombers...

From a purely tactical point of view it is an effective tactic. "Terrorism" always has been. Of course it used to be called "guerrilla warfare", but that's another story.

As for whether or not it is "evil" or against "civilians", that gets a little complicated. When you consider that virtually all Israelis serve in the military, then that means there are almost no civilians. Does that make the attacks right? No.

On the counter-point though, Israel conducts airstrikes against neighborhoods and shoots children.

Israel has done a lot of bad stuff.

So have the Palestinians.

I find it interesting how many people seem to think that Palestinan women are as opressed as women in other Muslim nations.


I do know that women [who are not even Muslem] have been stoned to death by Palestinians for not wearing the veil.

I also know that Palestinian women have stoned to death [by the PA,who would be running a Palestinian sate] for adultrey.

I'd call that sexist and oppression.

Israel has done a lot of bad stuff.

So have the Palestinians.

A balanced analysis.

Man, are you in trouble now! You will be accused of being anti-semitic, denying Israel has a right to exist, supporting terrorism and (possibly for good measure something like ) screwing your sister for months to come.

It has happened to me and others. Just wait. ;)

I do know that women [who are not even Muslem] have been stoned to death by Palestinians for not wearing the veil.

I also know that Palestinian women have stoned to death [by the PA,who would be running a Palestinian sate] for adultrey.

I'd call that sexist and oppression.


I guess Palestine ran out of stones because they haven't got these women yet:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:qj5Wp5mIlcEJ:http://www.mpac.org/bucket_images/437_img.jpg

I do know that women [who are not even Muslem] have been stoned to death by Palestinians for not wearing the veil.

I also know that Palestinian women have stoned to death [by the PA,who would be running a Palestinian sate] for adultrey.

I'd call that sexist and oppression.

It certainly doesn't sound very forgiving. :|

I do know that women [who are not even Muslem] have been stoned to death by Palestinians for not wearing the veil.

I can't seem to find any news sources for that. Could you cite me a few examples? And no Op-Ed pieces please, that was all I could find about women being stoned to death.

I also know that Palestinian women have stoned to death [by the PA,who would be running a Palestinian sate] for adultrey.

I'd call that sexist and oppression.

It's sexist and oppression because a woman who is supposedly oppressed participated equally with other members of her community in punishing someone in accordance with law? (In this case, stoning someone to death for adultry)

Harsh and brutal yes. Sexist? I don't think so; since, if memory serves, that law applies equally to men as well as women.

Israel has done a lot of bad stuff.

So have the Palestinians.


Very true!

And, you know what? They would have done all that bad stuff with or without the involvement of America. And they will both continue to do bad stuff with or without us poking our noses into the issue.

So we should just leave them alone and mind our own business.

I guess Palestine ran out of stones because they haven't got these women yet:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:qj5Wp5mIlcEJ:http://www.mpac.org/bucket_images/437_img.jpg
Are yuo denying it has ever happened?

I can't seem to find any news sources for that. Could you cite me a few examples? And no Op-Ed pieces please, that was all I could find about women being stoned to death.


I don't know what you mean by "op-ed".

Read Palestine by Joe Sacco,he saw a Christian women being stoned to near death on the street for not waering the veil [and sacco is ro-Palestinian,but he is honest about their abuses].


It's sexist and oppression because a woman who is supposedly oppressed participated equally with other members of her community in punishing someone in accordance with law? (In this case, stoning someone to death for adultry)

Harsh and brutal yes. Sexist? I don't think so; since, if memory serves, that law applies equally to men as well as women.


Women are usually punished more than men ,as John Lennon said "woman is the n-er of the world ".

Now to be fair,if you take Judaism and Christianity at their most literal,you find the same things many of us have a problem with radical Islam [not all Muslems,only radical Islamists]about.

The thing is Judaism and Christianity-even in their most fundemental forms-have modernized,Islam [at least in the Middle-East] has not.

I know this will seem to go off subject but please follow along for a second because I will be going in a circular motion, and at the end, there will be a point. Just last week a Laotian Immigrant killed 6-8 other hunters in Wisconsin. It was on the front page here in Chicago for about 1 day maybe 2 (depending what paper you are looking at). What do you think would have happened if a WHITE hunter had done the same to as many Laotian Immigrants? It would be a 6 month debacle on racism in America. My point is this: Those with an assumed advantage are always the bad guys. When Israelis get bombed, it is a blurb in the news because it happens all the time. When they use a gunship to kill PLO members (more power to them) it's a big deal. When an Israeli child is killed in a bombing it is barely noticable, but when an Israeli soldier kills a grown Palestinian man throwing rocks a t him it is a tradgedy because of the lack of equal firepower. Guess what... Don't attack armed soldiers with rocks dip****. Another thing, who do you think cares more about the manner with which they deal with their rival? The Israeli Gov't, or a bunch of barbarians who blow up coffee houses and school buses. At least most Israeli violence is in response to violence. And even if it isn't so what? I'd rather have a gov't that killed aggressors before they killed my family. I don't care about the PLO. They are the problem not the regular Palestinian or Israeli.

I do know that women [who are not even Muslem] have been stoned to death by Palestinians for not wearing the veil.

I also know that Palestinian women have stoned to death [by the PA,who would be running a Palestinian sate] for adultrey.

I'd call that sexist and oppression.

hehe it's a good thing then that israel treats the palestinians as sub-human.

:rolleyes:

oh, wow, palestinians aren't as enlightened as europeans or americans. that's news. so that justifies israel's treatment of them?

I find it interesting how many people seem to think that Palestinan women are as opressed as women in other Muslim nations.

As for suicide bombers...

From a purely tactical point of view it is an effective tactic. "Terrorism" always has been. Of course it used to be called "guerrilla warfare", but that's another story.

As for whether or not it is "evil" or against "civilians", that gets a little complicated. When you consider that virtually all Israelis serve in the military, then that means there are almost no civilians. Does that make the attacks right? No.

On the counter-point though, Israel conducts airstrikes against neighborhoods and shoots children.

Israel has done a lot of bad stuff.

So have the Palestinians.

Terrosism is about targeting civilians. Don't confuse beteween it and "querilla war". And how many "reservists" are found on a school bus? Maybe the driver..

Why are those families allowing terrorists to hide in their homes?

I know I wouldn't let them hide in mine.

It's not that simple. Entire buildings, comprised of a dozen condo's, have been demolished because one of the condo's had previously been used by a sniper. That's the kind of stuff that's going on.

If we all agree that the terrorists must go[I sure hope we agree on that],then how else can the Israelies do it?

Of course we agree on that. A good course of action would be to stop these reprisals and stimulate a true democratic movement in the occupied territories. One of the reasons Arafat could stay in place was because Israel gave him enough fuel to keep the hatred going.

Those with an assumed advantage are always the bad guys. When Israelis get bombed, it is a blurb in the news because it happens all the time. When they use a gunship to kill PLO members (more power to them) it's a big deal. When an Israeli child is killed in a bombing it is barely noticable, but when an Israeli soldier kills a grown Palestinian man throwing rocks a t him it is a tradgedy because of the lack of equal firepower. Guess what... Don't attack armed soldiers with rocks dip****. Another thing, who do you think cares more about the manner with which they deal with their rival? The Israeli Gov't, or a bunch of barbarians who blow up coffee houses and school buses. At least most Israeli violence is in response to violence. And even if it isn't so what? I'd rather have a gov't that killed aggressors before they killed my family. I don't care about the PLO. They are the problem not the regular Palestinian or Israeli.

One could also argue that the Palestinians only commit voilence in response to violence. I'm sure that's what they would tell you. The fact is that it's an endless downward spiral. Both sides are to blame, and it's never going to end until both sides want it to.

One of the reasons Arafat could stay in place was because Israel gave him enough fuel to keep the hatred going.

You still believe it... Amazing.

hehe it's a good thing then that israel treats the palestinians as sub-human.



I don't think Isreal does.

In fact,I would argue it's Palestinians who treat their own as sub-human .

Go to www.amnesty.org or www.thehumanist.org/humanist/Jan-Feb-03.htm for the article Violence Among The Palestinians.


oh, wow, palestinians aren't as enlightened as europeans or americans. that's news. so that justifies israel's treatment of them?

What justifies their treatment of Isreal?

Terrosism is about targeting civilians. Don't confuse beteween it and "querilla war". And how many "reservists" are found on a school bus? Maybe the driver..

Excellent point.

It's not that simple. Entire buildings, comprised of a dozen condo's, have been demolished because one of the condo's had previously been used by a sniper. That's the kind of stuff that's going on.


That's not the way I understand it.

Once again,if the peplke of that building would turn the sniper in,that would be a good faith gesture that would help.

No,the way I understand it,people harbor terrorist because they approve of what the terrorists do.


Of course we agree on that. A good course of action would be to stop these reprisals and stimulate a true democratic movement in the occupied territories. One of the reasons Arafat could stay in place was because Israel gave him enough fuel to keep the hatred going.


What is a "true democratic movement"?

And how does it come about?

I would say if they can't handle terrorists,Palestinian on Palestinian violence etc. now, then how can they handle such things when they get their own state?

That's not the way I understand it.

Once again,if the peplke of that building would turn the sniper in,that would be a good faith gesture that would help.

Sure. A sniper sneaks into the building at night, climbs onto the roof, fires some whots and disappears again. And the next day the building is demolished to prevent it from being used as by a sniper again.

I see how the residents of that building are to be blamed... :rolleyes:

I would say if they can't handle terrorists,Palestinian on Palestinian violence etc. now, then how can they handle such things when they get their own state?

Who is 'they'? There has not been any real 'they' for years. Arafat and his corrupt ilk have done nothing to create anything resembling responsibility, structure or coherence. All they've done is maintain the status quo in order to remain in power.

Now, with Arafat out of the way, there's finally a real chance of moving forward.

Sure. A sniper sneaks into the building at night, climbs onto the roof, fires some whots and disappears again. And the next day the building is demolished to prevent it from being used as by a sniper again.

I see how the residents of that building are to be blamed... :rolleyes:


It is right to blame them for letting it happen.

They could have formed their own police forces and brought the snipers to justice instead of cheering whenever the sniper shoots a Jew [and remember,seldom,if ever, do Palestinians say "Isreali" instead of "Jew"].

By the way ,whenever these bombers have survived their attacks,they get taken to Isreali hosptials where Isreali doctors and nurses bust a gut trying to save them.

And what do these bombers say to these Jews who saved their lives?

They say "How many Jews did i kill?I wish I had killed more".

This has happend more than once over the years.

I haven't heard of any Palestinian doctors or nurses saving Isreali lives.



Who is 'they'? There has not been any real 'they' for years. Arafat and his corrupt ilk have done nothing to create anything resembling responsibility, structure or coherence. All they've done is maintain the status quo in order to remain in power.


I think it's simplistic to put the whole blame on Arafat.

The fact is the Iron Curtain/Berlin Wall came down because 90% of the East European population evetually wanted that to happen.

Ferdinand and Imelda "Shoes" Marcos were kicked out of the Philippines because 90% of the Philippine population eventually wanted that to happen.

If 90% of the Palestinian poplualtion had ever wanted the PLO/Palestinian Authority,suicide/homicide bombers out,those people would have been out.


Now, with Arafat out of the way, there's finally a real chance of moving forward.

We'll see.

But it is up to the Palestininas to say "We'll let Isreal exist and live in peace",if they don't do that,then the ball will never get rolling.

It is right to blame them for letting it happen.

:eek3:

So, if a criminal, without your knowledge, used the roof of your building to shoot someone, you should not complain if your home was destroyed without any form of compensation?

That says more than enough about your objectivity...

By the way ,whenever these bombers have survived their attacks,they get taken to Isreali hosptials where Isreali doctors and nurses bust a gut trying to save them.

Yes, so? They're doing the right thing. I appreciate that. Should I start cheering for them now?

I haven't heard of any Palestinian doctors or nurses saving Isreali lives.

That probably because no Israeli is ever on their turf (well, not without a decent settlement around him) to be taken care of. Tanks and gunships do offer the advantage of not having to actually go there, you know?

:eek3:
That probably because no Israeli is ever on their turf (well, not without a decent settlement around him) to be taken care of.

No, no one, not after they started murdering every israeli entering their territory.

It is right to blame them for letting it happen.

They could have formed their own police forces and brought the snipers to justice instead of cheering whenever the sniper shoots a Jew [and remember,seldom,if ever, do Palestinians say "Isreali" instead of "Jew"].

By the way ,whenever these bombers have survived their attacks,they get taken to Isreali hosptials where Isreali doctors and nurses bust a gut trying to save them.

And what do these bombers say to these Jews who saved their lives?

They say "How many Jews did i kill?I wish I had killed more".

This has happend more than once over the years.

I haven't heard of any Palestinian doctors or nurses saving Isreali lives.


OK, TT, let's put this to a test. Should the USA adopt the same policy? Say I live in an apartment building and on some man on some floor starts shooting a gun and mudering pedistrians on the street. Let's that the police eventually subdue him but not until he had murdered many innocent people.

Now would you argue that they entire apartment building should be torn down because the renters

1. Didn't have their own police force?
2. Because some of the renters have used racist expressions before?
3. The sniper later inquires how many people he killed?

Does that REALLY sound like justice to you? I should have my place of residence destroyed because of the actions of one man and because others in my building use the N-word?

Yes, so? They're doing the right thing. I appreciate that. Should I start cheering for them now?

They are actually not doing the right thing. They should not only let the monsters die, but finish them as quickly as possible, as opposed to spending Israelis' (many of whom are victims to terror) tax money to save these beasts. And yes, not only all of these anti-Israel people should appreciate it, but they should kiss the Israeli flag for the fact that if it was anybody else but Israelis instead, by now, the word "palestinians" would only exist in history books as people who have been wiped out from the face of this earth.

So, if a criminal, without your knowledge, used the roof of your building to shoot someone, you should not complain if your home was destroyed without any form of compensation?

If I was one of these people, I would move away and denouce the palestinian violence, like some palestinians actually do. In fact, I saw an interview on tv with an ex-palestinian terrorist who converted to Christianity and denounced the palestinian violence, and now is a big supporter of Israel, even critical of Sharon giving all this land away. Yes, if you don't condemn evil and don't act against it when it is all around you, you are just as bad.

I don't know what you mean by "op-ed".

Read Palestine by Joe Sacco,he saw a Christian women being stoned to near death on the street for not waering the veil [and sacco is ro-Palestinian,but he is honest about their abuses].


op-ed or Op-Ed
adj.
Of or being a newspaper page, usually opposite the editorial page, that features signed articles expressing personal viewpoints.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[op(posite) + ed(itorial).]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=op-ed&r=67

Essentially, an Op-Ed is an opinion piece, with no actual facts backing it up.

Like for example, a story about a Christian woman being stoned to death in Palestine for not wearing a veil. I personally could find no legitimate news outlet that backs this story up. And I would think that story would have made at least one crazy ass right wing fundamentalist newspaper, but so far no luck. I find lots of Christian women stoned to death in Sudan.... but not in Palestine.

Any other examples?

:eek3:

So, if a criminal, without your knowledge, used the roof of your building to shoot someone, you should not complain if your home was destroyed without any form of compensation?


I would say the question is do the people in building know?

Evidence [and copmmon sense] says to me that they do know and do condone the snipers.

Like GF,I [at the very least] would get out of there and blame the snipers themselves more than blame the Israleis defending themselves against the snipers.



OK, TT, let's put this to a test. Should the USA adopt the same policy?


If we had a poplution that supports terrorists,but don't.


Now would you argue that they entire apartment building should be torn down because the renters

1. Didn't have their own police force?


I would argue they do have their own police force in their county,city etc.

We do not have the same situation.



Does that REALLY sound like justice to you? I should have my place of residence destroyed because of the actions of one man and because others in my building use the N-word?
The snipers/bomber are doing more than saying racial slurs.









Like for example, a story about a Christian woman being stoned to death in Palestine for not wearing a veil.




Read the book[s] Palestine by Joe Sacco.

He also saw a Palestinian woman executed for adultrey.

If we had a poplution that supports terrorists,but don't..

Yes, we do. They just voted the terrorists back into office.


I would argue they do have their own police force in their county,city etc.

That's irrelevant since your argument here presupposes that city & county police are omniscient and omnipresent. No police force in the world knows who all the snipers are BERFORE THEY START SHOOTING. So you are saying that Israel is perfectly justified for tearing down people's homes on the grounds that they do not do what would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to do.


The snipers/bomber are doing more than saying racial slurs.

You are the one who listed racial slurs as a reason for tearin g down Palestinian homes, not me. How you can say such a thing w/ a straight face is the only mystery here.

TT, what gives w/ you & Israel? Your otherwise fine moral instincts go completly out the window when you engage in these inanities. Seriously, tearing innocent people's homes down because Palestinian police forces aren't all-knowing--how can you say these things and really expect anyone to take you seriously. What gives w/ you & Israel?

Evidence [and copmmon sense] says to me that they do know and do condone the snipers.

Really? Even if they know, which I seriously doubt, a heavily armed man is using their rooftop, do you think they'd climb up there and chase him off?

Like GF,I [at the very least] would get out of there and blame the snipers themselves more than blame the Israleis defending themselves against the snipers.

Well, here's where we differ. I don't consider demolishing residences self-defense against snipers. :shrug:

If a good percentage of the Palestinian population behaved like normal human beings (you know, stopped blowing themselves up and killing people at random), do you really think Isreal would continue with their defensive? The Israelis arent doing this for ****s and giggles.

If a good percentage of the Palestinian population behaved like normal human beings (you know, stopped blowing themselves up and killing people at random), do you really think Isreal would continue with their defensive? The Israelis arent doing this for ****s and giggles.

Then I have a question for you: what is the percentage of Palestinians that is not blowing themselves up and killing people at random?

Read the book[s] Palestine by Joe Sacco.

He also saw a Palestinian woman executed for adultrey.


Well I just checked out Palestine by Mr. Sacco. Let me tell you, I am impressed. Since you acccept Palestine (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A913349) as fact, do you also accept this (http://www.leftbehind.com/channelbooks.asp?channelID=126) as fact?

Ok, so that's unfair. My point is, here you have one man who says he saw things this way and yet no other news source seems to back it up.

Anyone can write a book and call it fact. O'Reilly does it. Limbaugh does it. Franken does it. Coulter does it. Hannity does it.

The point is - it's easy.

They are actually not doing the right thing. They should not only let the monsters die, but finish them as quickly as possible, as opposed to spending Israelis' (many of whom are victims to terror) tax money to save these beasts. And yes, not only all of these anti-Israel people should appreciate it, but they should kiss the Israeli flag for the fact that if it was anybody else but Israelis instead, by now, the word "palestinians" would only exist in history books as people who have been wiped out from the face of this earth.


Maybe one of the reasons to the anti-israeli bias.
Our restrain is perceivied by some as weakness and by some as guilt.

Yes, we do. They just voted the terrorists back into office.


Seamantics.:not:



That's irrelevant since your argument here presupposes that city & county police are omniscient and omnipresent. No police force in the world knows who all the snipers are BERFORE THEY START SHOOTING. So you are saying that Israel is perfectly justified for tearing down people's homes on the grounds that they do not do what would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to do.


I'm saying those people knowingly harbor terrorsits in their home.

I have met people who have been to Isreal and told me the truth.



You are the one who listed racial slurs as a reason for tearin g down Palestinian homes, not me. How you can say such a thing w/ a straight face is the only mystery here.


Teaching children things like "The Jews are pigs" is more than a racial slur,it's more like Third Reich territory.


TT, what gives w/ you & Israel? Your otherwise fine moral instincts go completly out the window when you engage in these inanities. Seriously, tearing innocent people's homes down because Palestinian police forces aren't all-knowing--how can you say these things and really expect anyone to take you seriously. What gives w/ you & Israel?



Let's see: I'm agaisnt racism ,Palestinians [like all extremeist Islamists- andi should add I don't think most Islamists are extremeists] are anti-Semetic.

I'm agaisnt sexism,Palestinians [again like all extremeist Islamists] are sexist.

I'm against homophobia and theocracy,Palestinians are for those things.

I do think Palestinians should have thier own state,but they [and their Arab neighbors ]have got to give up their long time desire to take up where Hitler left off.

If you searched the archives you'd find that I'm anti Sharon and Likud.

I'm against any country that treats anyobdy inhummanely.

I'm against the way Cuba treats gays and dissidents,I'm not selective in my morality,I [unlike too many of my leftist brethren]am not blinded by ideology.

Unlike I do not romanticize anti-Semetic murderers because they are Palestinian.

Support of Irseal is consistant with why I'm a leftist.


[QUOTE=Zaphod Beeblebrox]Really? Even if they know, which I seriously doubt, a heavily armed man is using their rooftop, do you think they'd climb up there and chase him off?


905 of the population brought down the Berlin Wall and kicked out Marcos.

If 90% of any populace want to do something,it will get done.



If a good percentage of the Palestinian population behaved like normal human beings (you know, stopped blowing themselves up and killing people at random), do you really think Isreal would continue with their defensive? The Israelis arent doing this for ****s and giggles.

Then I have a question for you: what is the percentage of Palestinians that is not blowing themselves up and killing people at random?

I agree 100%

Well I just checked out [i]Palestine by Mr. Sacco. Let me tell you, I am impressed. Since you acccept Palestine (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A913349) as fact, do you also accept this (http://www.leftbehind.com/channelbooks.asp?channelID=126) as fact?

Ok, so that's unfair. My point is, here you have one man who says he saw things this way and yet no other news source seems to back it up.

Anyone can write a book and call it fact. O'Reilly does it. Limbaugh does it. Franken does it. Coulter does it. Hannity does it.

The point is - it's easy.

Sorry ,time was running out on the computer and I decided to post.

I agree 100% with what Riz wrote [how often is that?].

A better question ZB would be :why can't they just say "Isreal has the right to exist" and let them exist?



evrythingsxen:Sacco is pro-Palestinian,yet what he says reinforces my beliefs.

Evrything cannot be Googled [and everythign Googled cannot be correct],if you want to be a victim of idology and believe that all Palestinians are saints and all Isrealis are villlians then knock yourself out,lots of WNs agree with you.

evrythingsxen:Sacco is pro-Palestinian,yet what he says reinforces my beliefs.

Evrything cannot be Googled [and everythign Googled cannot be correct],if you want to be a victim of idology and believe that all Palestinians are saints and all Isrealis are villlians then knock yourself out,lots of WNs agree with you.

Could you direct me to the post where I said Palestinians are saints? I don't seem to remember making that post.

I said Israelis and Palestinians are equally guilty and I also said that Palestinian women are better off than in *most* Muslim countries.

Sorry ,time was running out on the computer and I decided to post.

Ah, that explains why I was totally amazed that you agreed 100% with me! :)

A better question ZB would be :why can't they just say "Isreal has the right to exist" and let them exist?

Because those people are not the ones in charge, and haven't been in charge in the last decades. The militants are.

Because those people are not the ones in charge, and haven't been in charge in the last decades. The militants are.

Let's wate for the elections.

Yeah, I really hope someone rational gets elected this time.

Yeah, I really hope someone rational gets elected this time.

Maruan Barguti can be a disturbance, but actutually all the candidates looks reasonable. Most of the pressure to contineu terror and not to settle are caming now from outside - Iran and Hizballah.But it must be a candidate with an ability, not only good intentions.

TT, what gives w/ you & Israel? Your otherwise fine moral instincts go completly out the window when you engage in these inanities.



And I could ask what gives with you [and some other lefties] about Palestinians?

If any other walk of life had a history of espousing anti-Semitism,violence against Jews,forcing women into traditional roles,capital punishment of any kind [if I'm not mistaken Isreal does not have captial punishment any more],theocracy and executing people for their sexual orentation or fornication you'd be against them.

Palestinians have this history and you want to give them a state.

As for one poster saying women have in better in the PA than in other Arab sates,well that's not saying very much,is it?

I do agree the next elections will tell,but I don't honestly expect the PLO post-Arafat that be any different than before.

If Palestinians were given their own state today,all evidence suggets it would be a extrmeist Islam state,that is [at the very least] as bad as a "Jesusland" state.

But we do agree,the Palestinians finally have the chance to break free and take the high [Gandhi/Dr. King ] road,will they?

Now,I have to work for a living and this is the busy season where I work ,so I'll be gone from DA for about a week and this is my last word for a week or so.

if I'm not mistaken Isreal does not have captial punishment any more

It never really did. It was only applied as an exception once to the nazi leader Adolf Eichman, due his mass murder of Jews. And that was in the 1960's.

And I could ask what gives with you [and some other lefties] about Palestinians?

If any other walk of life had a history of espousing anti-Semitism,violence against Jews,forcing women into traditional roles,capital punishment of any kind [if I'm not mistaken Isreal does not have captial punishment any more],theocracy and executing people for their sexual orentation or fornication you'd be against them.

Palestinians have this history and you want to give them a state.

As for one poster saying women have in better in the PA than in other Arab sates,well that's not saying very much,is it?

I do agree the next elections will tell,but I don't honestly expect the PLO post-Arafat that be any different than before.

If Palestinians were given their own state today,all evidence suggets it would be a extrmeist Islam state,that is [at the very least] as bad as a "Jesusland" state.

But we do agree,the Palestinians finally have the chance to break free and take the high [Gandhi/Dr. King ] road,will they?

Now,I have to work for a living and this is the busy season where I work ,so I'll be gone from DA for about a week and this is my last word for a week or so.

The real reason is that they don't give a damn about palestinians and every aspects of their lives different from "Israel hurted palestinians again as allways!"
Palestinians are only a tool for hate and demeaning of Israel. IfI palestinians with all their problems and "suffering", or their real suffering, would live in Africa, Rusia, Arab world, some french protectorate or so - they only reaction would be "Palestinians who?".
It's all about the obsession with Israel.

The real reason is that they don't give a damn about palestinians and every aspects of their lives different from "Israel hurted palestinians again as allways!"
Palestinians are only a tool for hate and demeaning of Israel. IfI palestinians with all their problems and "suffering", or their real suffering, would live in Africa, Rusia, Arab world, some french protectorate or so - they only reaction would be "Palestinians who?".
It's all about the obsession with Israel.

I have to agree.

Spab and I have both agree that our fellow lefties mean well,but they have romanticized what they precieve to be the "Palestinian struggle" so much that they have lost all objectivity about the situation.

Mr. Ananrky's response of "waht gives" spoke volumes,there are indeed many people who I disagree with on only this one issue,yet they take this one disagreement very personally and disregard what we do have in common.

ISpab and I have both agree that our fellow lefties mean well,but they have romanticized what they precieve to be the "Palestinian struggle" so much that they have lost all objectivity about the situation.


It is kind of strange - this "leftists" accepted attitude, allmoast a copy of the WN's attitude.
BTW, is this attempt to consider jews as a relogion (or a race) instead of nationality - is a base to further claim that Israel has no right for existence, as a state of a religion, or state of a a race, instead as a national state?

BTW, is this attempt to consider jews as a relogion instead of nationality

well, it *is* the case, is it not ? :confused:

well, it *is* the case, is it not ? :confused:

Maybe it is, but then somebody forgot to tell me about :confused:

The real reason is that they don't give a damn about palestinians and every aspects of their lives different from "Israel hurted palestinians again as allways!"
Palestinians are only a tool for hate and demeaning of Israel. IfI palestinians with all their problems and "suffering", or their real suffering, would live in Africa, Rusia, Arab world, some french protectorate or so - they only reaction would be "Palestinians who?".
It's all about the obsession with Israel.

Oh, please. This assessment is so disgustingly arrogant. It's the arrogance of the "Everyone hates me" variety. I don't know anyone who hates Israel per se. They hate what Israel does in some cases. The reasons why Israel get so much attention are obvious:

1. It's the biggest reciepient of USA military aid.

2. It's actions keep the Mideast in constant turmoil, one that has ramifications not only for the region but for the world.

3. It's actions are routinely condemned in the UN by nearly all nations w/ the exception of the USA and perhaps Micronesia and the Marshall Islands.

4. It often seems to make no distinction between Palestinian terrorists and innocent Palestinians like school children.

5. A strong racist element runs through powerful elements of Israeli society (see the racism in the IDF article that you refuse to srespond to).

6. It's a rogue state that happens to have nuclear weapons.

Stop behaving badly and the left will befriend you.

Good question.

I've always wondered why many [not all] of my fellow lefties codemn sexism,anti-Semtism and violence against women,gays or Jews when any other walk of life engages in it,yet think it's ok when Palestinians do these things.:scratch:

I don't think any of the friends you mention think its ok when Palestinians do it. If they are anything like me, they just don't see it as an influential factor in the Palestinian fight for self-determination.

I am instantly wary of any argument against a people engaged in an uphill battle for land and sovereignty which consists of citing aspects of their culture which are to be disapproved of.

I am sure there are those in the Arab world who use Western gender mores as an argument to bolster their hatred of us. I am sure you don't see that as a Good Thing, yet you seem to be doing something similar in the other direction...

M.

I I am instantly wary of any argument against a people engaged in