In 1975, the US ranked in the top in the top 5 in the number of science and engineering graduates. In 2004, it ranks less than 15th.

Speculation as to why?

"About 55 percent of students taking physics in the United States, for example, are taught by someone who never majored or minored in the subject."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/02/25/MN54903.DTL&type=printable

Students are not getting interested in math and science in high school, and don't go on to study them in college.

What kinds of effects does this have economically? It seems that the economy depending on anything high tech would be really strained as far as their expansion, because there just isn't enough qualified labor. Salaries would also be forced upwards. Importing foreign educated labor, if this trend doesn't reverse, will just keep increasing. I've heard that most of the new high tech start ups in the United States are not even Americans. They're mostly Asian/European/Latin/whoever immigrants.

Ultimately, the people running the system are to blame. I've heard from teachers how they don't like the No Child Left Behind Act, because it holds teachers accountable for the first time. Teachers were not held accountable until now for their work. If 100 percent of their class failed, it reflected zero on them. They just kept screwing up, year after year. Alot of teachers don't like having to answer to anyone.

If this country were serious about education, it would have school all year long. The days would be longer, and we'd have six day school weeks. The problem with education is not solely the fault of one or two groups. The problem with education is cultural and societal. This country doesn't give a damn about it. Think about that for a moment before you jump up and claim that you do. How much money do we spend on education compared to other countries. How do we rank up against those other countries? We spend more on education than any other country, but most perform better than we do. Why? Because this country has a problem with excessive individual. We don't want to have anyone feel left behind, so we have lax standards. In other countries, such as Japan, the teacher teaches, and the student better learn because there are no second chances. You fail the test, you're now Kenji the Plumber. Our cultural and societal views on education are fundamentally different.

Well, I think a large part of it is cultural. Generally speaking, students don't see the value of education, and parents are either uninterested and busy. To the extent that this is true of students and parents, is largely to the extent our educational system is a failure. I favor NCLB and teacher accountability, but I don't think it's the magic bullet.

If this country were serious about education, it would have school all year long. The days would be longer, and we'd have six day school weeks..
What about the quality of child's life?

In other countries, such as Japan, the teacher teaches, and the student better learn because there are no second chances. You fail the test, you're now Kenji the Plumber. Our cultural and societal views on education are fundamentally different.
Maybe not a bad thing. People has the freedom to choose the way they want to live. Plumber can be happy too.

Besides, US has the best universities. We can still produce the best talent in any area when there is a need. Only thing I am afraid of is the amount of new graduates in China and India. I guess we have a lesser problem when we take 85K H1-B from the world every year.

To my knowledge, every generation complains about education and want improve education. Maybe that is how we come this far.

What about the quality of child's life?
What about it?

Maybe not a bad thing. People has the freedom to choose the way they want to live. Plumber can be happy too.
True, but what is the American dream of most people? Big house, nice car, hot wife. In other words, my house, a BMW, and Jeri Ryan.

Besides, US has the best universities. We can still produce the best talent in any area when there is a need. Only thing I am afraid of is the amount of new graduates in China and India. I guess we have a lesser problem when we take 85K H1-B from the world every year.
I disagree. Todai is superior to most Universities in America, and it's much, much harder to get into. Most Ivy League schools have money and familial traditions affecting their admittance. But they're not exclusively funded publicly.

To my knowledge, every generation complains about education and want improve education. Maybe that is how we come this far.
Every generation complains, but no generation does anything about it. We have taken several steps backwards.

we need to drop this stupid 2 1/2 month summer vacation crap. most kids aren't helping to farm these days, so no need for that huge break. the quarter system would function quite well, and prepare kids for college.

You're damn right.

Well, I dropped out of high school and am now persuing an AA, so I've somewhat redeemed myself. I'll let you all in on a huge secret: I failed the education system, it did not fail me.

That's the case for all the blame that is laid upon the education system. Your education is your responbability, period.

Americas youth are quickly becoming the fat, lazy joke of the world.

Let me tell you something else, it has nothing to do with the schoold system, it has everything to do with the family. Some lefties on this site want to label me as brainwashed by my right wing family. I think they are missing the bigger picture of how strong an influance a parent has on the education of the child. I learned almost nothing but rudimentary math in K-12. Everything else was from observing my family and experiance.

Yes, I am afraid of China surpassing the US as a superpower withing the next 20 years. That's why I am persuing my education and working the best I can at my job. There is no room for whinny brats and victims in the real world. I won't be responsible for the decline of my country. I want to be able to say that I did my best.

I repeat.
It's a cultural and societal problem.

Well, I don't think lengthening the school calender necessarily puts the heart to learn into children...I'm not against year round school, but I'm not interested in it, either. There are some year-round schools here, and I guess the system works something along the lines of giving students a straight 6 weeks of work, then they get a 2 week vacation, etc. Personally, I think giving frequent vacations engenders a sentiment in children to think outside of the classroom, and they act up more. Kids usually do before vacations. I'd rather keep the current Fall to Spring schedule and just axe a few holidays....

year round schools are awful, especially since so many high schools and elite universities now rely on advanced placement (AP) tests. the kids who go to year-round schools get shafted when taking APs, as they finish one semester in the winter, then have to wait until the spring to take the actual AP test.

also, american universities are the best in the world, hands down, especially in science and tech. there is simply no comparision.

What about it?.
It will be a hell for children if they have to learn all the time.


True, but what is the American dream of most people? Big house, nice car, hot wife. In other words, my house, a BMW, and Jeri Ryan.
There are many ways to get there, besides a perfect education.

Suppose everyone do very well in school like Japan, there are still the top 10% and low 20%. Or when all people get a college degree, you still need someone to do the plumbing. Only then the plumber has a college degree, sounds like a waste.

The U.S. doesn't reward education in the marketplace.

Corporations can get fopreign engineers and scientists dirt cheap, why hire U.S. graduates when so much can be outsourced or handled by H1-B's, H1-a's, etc.? Smarter people go where the money is, and in the 80's and 90's that was Law and MBA's, so it's only to be expected.

Also, universities are the first entities to go enmasse with foreign students, in order to hold down the cost of hiring grad students as cheap assisants and teachers; they were looking at having to pay more to get American students, whereas foreigns would do that stuff dirt cheap.

A professor at UC Berkley wrote did a study on it some years back, and now we are seeing the long term efects of those kinds of policies. While we constantly hear teh lamentations, it's a fake 'shortage'; I know plenty of unemployed engineers and techs, their great crime is being an American, and some have also committed the hideous corporate sin of being over the age of 35 or 40, especially in IT. As usual, it is a self inflicted problem.

Take truck driving; always the constant whine of a driver 'shortage', but pay is the same or less as it was in the early 1980's and late 1970's, and it isn'r covered by FLSA overtime laws. The industry can't run drivers off fast enough through low pay, blackballing, horrible treatment, etc. The Solution? Bring in Mexican drivers. LOL

This is repeated in many industries; the excuse is a faux 'labor shortage', which is artificial and outright fraudulent.

A dumb, happy population, is an easily governed population.

It will be a hell for children if they have to learn all the time.
How so? Why? During the three month break that we give them now, they forget at least 80% of what they have been taught.

There are many ways to get there, besides a perfect education.
True, but does that mean that we should not offer everyone the chance at the perfect education.

Suppose everyone do very well in school like Japan, there are still the top 10% and low 20%. Or when all people get a college degree, you still need someone to do the plumbing. Only then the plumber has a college degree, sounds like a waste.
Everyone in Japan does not do well in school. In fact, they have tests to determine whether or not you should continue in school, or be taught manual labor. Sure, we need plumbers and stuff, but we shouldn't lower the standards of everyone to that of what a plumber needs. Not everyone wants to be a plumber.
Let me sum up your argument. "People can get what they want without lots of education." Bull****. Sure, some people can, but not everyone. Look at the inner cities. Little education, and look how well they're doing in the workplace.
Yeah, there will still be highs and lows, but at least we'll be able to compete with other countries.

year round schools are awful, especially since so many high schools and elite universities now rely on advanced placement (AP) tests. the kids who go to year-round schools get shafted when taking APs, as they finish one semester in the winter, then have to wait until the spring to take the actual AP test.
This argument is so idiotic that I will give you a piece of advice instead. Use common sense.

also, american universities are the best in the world, hands down, especially in science and tech. there is simply no comparision.
You need to get out more.

How so? Why? During the three month break that we give them now, they forget at least 80% of what they have been taught.
.
Children should be allowed to enjoy their childhood. They need to play, having fun. If some having fun reading, that is fine. But a lots (>50%) would prefer to play in the field.

Sure, we need plumbers and stuff, but we shouldn't lower the standards of everyone to that of what a plumber needs. Not everyone wants to be a plumber..
Of course not. Those who is more motivated to learn can do that. Just there is no benifit to force everyone to full year school.

Let me sum up your argument. "People can get what they want without lots of education." Bull****. Sure, some people can, but not everyone..
Yes and no. People cannot get what they want without knowledge, but education is not the only way to gain knowledge.

Yeah, there will still be highs and lows, but at least we'll be able to compete with other countries.
China and India may one day have more qualified worker than US. I guess when you have no job because work are no longer performed in US, you will be forced to learn.

Besides, US has the best universities. We can still produce the best talent in any area when there is a need. Only thing I am afraid of is the amount of new graduates in China and India. I guess we have a lesser problem when we take 85K H1-B from the world every year.

To my knowledge, every generation complains about education and want improve education. Maybe that is how we come this far.

The idea that the US has the best Universities I am sorry is just simply wrong. The US has some great Universities that charge incredible fees but it is not the only country in the world with Great institutions. Oxford, Cambridge, London School of Economics, the Sorbonne, McGill, SFU, University of Toronto I can go on and on with a list of institutions that are fine and great. If you want the finest tech school its in India for example. Your statement above shows how little you really know of the world.

Well, I dropped out of high school and am now persuing an AA, so I've somewhat redeemed myself. I'll let you all in on a huge secret: I failed the education system, it did not fail me.

That's the case for all the blame that is laid upon the education system. Your education is your responbability, period.

Americas youth are quickly becoming the fat, lazy joke of the world.

Let me tell you something else, it has nothing to do with the schoold system, it has everything to do with the family. Some lefties on this site want to label me as brainwashed by my right wing family. I think they are missing the bigger picture of how strong an influance a parent has on the education of the child. I learned almost nothing but rudimentary math in K-12. Everything else was from observing my family and experiance.

Yes, I am afraid of China surpassing the US as a superpower withing the next 20 years. That's why I am persuing my education and working the best I can at my job. There is no room for whinny brats and victims in the real world. I won't be responsible for the decline of my country. I want to be able to say that I did my best.

You are dead right on Family influence. The breakdown of the family in our cultures has had a huge influence on the quality of education.

This is a very easy question to answer. Feminist ,socialist and perverts.

It actually started with the Butchy Boot Patrolers. Once they got to vote it was all down hill from there. Then they ganged up on Roosevelt or his wife Ethel did anyway and he clinced it with welfare . The New deal I think it was . marrage ,work ,morals,pinciples all thrown to the wind. More than 'skeletons 'started poping out of closets and romance consited of anything you could lay down with with a crivice or cavity .

How so? Why? During the three month break that we give them now, they forget at least 80% of what they have been taught.


True, but does that mean that we should not offer everyone the chance at the perfect education.


Everyone in Japan does not do well in school. In fact, they have tests to determine whether or not you should continue in school, or be taught manual labor. Sure, we need plumbers and stuff, but we shouldn't lower the standards of everyone to that of what a plumber needs. Not everyone wants to be a plumber.
Let me sum up your argument. "People can get what they want without lots of education." Bull****. Sure, some people can, but not everyone. Look at the inner cities. Little education, and look how well they're doing in the workplace.
Yeah, there will still be highs and lows, but at least we'll be able to compete with other countries.


This argument is so idiotic that I will give you a piece of advice instead. Use common sense.


You need to get out more.


year long education is just one of the worst things fems did to our schools. They don't like men or kids, so they stick the kids in school all year and if thats not bad enough, they now are wanting to keep them there most of day and evening too [after school care BS].

Our kids did just fine with the old 7 hour a day ,three month vacation . They use to learn academics ,now they learn how to cater to agendas forced on them . And look what a great nation they built ! Only to have it torn down by socialist who want everybody to be as hateful and evil as they are. This is why they are so in-tolerant of anything good or moral. It is a threat to their lifestyles or death-styles.

This argument is so idiotic that I will give you a piece of advice instead. Use common sense.

You've got to be kidding me. Year round schools do not work in the interests of the best and the brightest; they help those who struggle with the basic concepts. There is some SLIM evidence that suggests year round schooling slightly raises the performance of the bottom quarter of the student population-it sure as hell doesn't help the future researchers, engineers and doctors of tomorrow. There is no link between year round schooling and higher AP test scores (the test takers representing the top performers). Oh, but "common sense" dictates that this shouldn't be the case. Too bad your common sense flies in the face of all evidence.


You need to get out more.

You're wrong. The great majority of the top students, especially in science, technology and business, do not go to Oxford University or Cambridge or Kyoto University or Heidelberg for their graduate degrees. Instead, they come to American universities such as UCLA, MIT, UC-Berkeley, CalTech etc. Of course, Heidelberg, Oxford, Kyoto and Cambridge are all excellent schools but they do not have the funding that most American universities do.

Here's a list of the top 100 universities in the world.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm

1. Harvard University (USA)
2. Stanford University (USA)
3. University of Cambridge (UK)
4. University of California-Berkeley (USA)
5. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (USA)
6. California Institute of Technology (USA)
7. Princeton University (USA)
8. University of Oxford (UK)
9. Columbia University (USA)
10. University of Chicago (USA)

Now, I don't know about you but I count EIGHT American universities among the top ten in the world.




:cool:

You've got to be kidding me. Year round schools do not work in the interests of the best and the brightest; they help those who struggle with the basic concepts. There is some SLIM evidence that suggests year round schooling slightly raises the performance of the bottom quarter of the student population-it sure as hell doesn't help the future researchers, engineers and doctors of tomorrow. There is no link between year round schooling and higher AP test scores (the test takers representing the top performers). Oh, but "common sense" dictates that this shouldn't be the case. Too bad your common sense flies in the face of all evidence.




You're wrong. The great majority of the top students, especially in science, technology and business, do not go to Oxford University or Cambridge or Kyoto University or Heidelberg for their graduate degrees. Instead, they come to American universities such as UCLA, MIT, UC-Berkeley, CalTech etc. Of course, Heidelberg, Oxford, Kyoto and Cambridge are all excellent schools but they do not have the funding that most American universities do.

Here's a list of the top 100 universities in the world.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm

1. Harvard University (USA)
2. Stanford University (USA)
3. University of Cambridge (UK)
4. University of California-Berkeley (USA)
5. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (USA)
6. California Institute of Technology (USA)
7. Princeton University (USA)
8. University of Oxford (UK)
9. Columbia University (USA)
10. University of Chicago (USA)

Now, I don't know about you but I count EIGHT American universities among the top ten in the world.




:cool:



Yea! ;)

You've got to be kidding me. Year round schools do not work in the interests of the best and the brightest; they help those who struggle with the basic concepts. There is some SLIM evidence that suggests year round schooling slightly raises the performance of the bottom quarter of the student population-it sure as hell doesn't help the future researchers, engineers and doctors of tomorrow. There is no link between year round schooling and higher AP test scores (the test takers representing the top performers). Oh, but "common sense" dictates that this shouldn't be the case. Too bad your common sense flies in the face of all evidence.
Obviously common sense is not one of your strong points. Your argument was that AP tests will occur one submester after the course ends. If the nation has year round school, then the time in which AP tests are taken will be adjusted accordingly. There is plenty of well documented evidence demonstrating that most students forget 80% of what they had learned the previous year over the course of their summer vacation. Not that hard.

You're wrong. The great majority of the top students, especially in science, technology and business, do not go to Oxford University or Cambridge or Kyoto University or Heidelberg for their graduate degrees. Instead, they come to American universities such as UCLA, MIT, UC-Berkeley, CalTech etc. Of course, Heidelberg, Oxford, Kyoto and Cambridge are all excellent schools but they do not have the funding that most American universities do.
But we're not talking about Graduate Degrees. And let's not forget that those Universities that you listed accept even less international students than American Schools. Also, America has more colleges and Universities. Satellite Campuses up the wazoo.


Here's a list of the top 100 universities in the world.

Now, I don't know about you but I count EIGHT American universities among the top ten in the world.

Hardly a "hands down" assessment. Think about this for a moment. How many students go to those eight colleges? How many of those places are satellite campuses? How well do students there stack up academically for undergrad as opposed to other countries?
You still need to get out more.

You're wrong. The great majority of the top students, especially in science, technology and business, do not go to Oxford University or Cambridge or Kyoto University or Heidelberg for their graduate degrees. Instead, they come to American universities such as UCLA, MIT, UC-Berkeley, CalTech etc. Of course, Heidelberg, Oxford, Kyoto and Cambridge are all excellent schools but they do not have the funding that most American universities do.

Here's a list of the top 100 universities in the world.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm

1. Harvard University (USA)
2. Stanford University (USA)
3. University of Cambridge (UK)
4. University of California-Berkeley (USA)
5. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (USA)
6. California Institute of Technology (USA)
7. Princeton University (USA)
8. University of Oxford (UK)
9. Columbia University (USA)
10. University of Chicago (USA)

Now, I don't know about you but I count EIGHT American universities among the top ten in the world.




:cool:
This is completely true. On the flipside, however, their accessibility is limited to 0.1% of the population (maybe) because of the insanely high costs.

Princeton has no tuition fee. .01% of the population has access because of the required SAT scores and most people don't have the family tradition of going to one of those schools.

Obviously common sense is not one of your strong points. Your argument was that AP tests will occur one submester after the course ends. If the nation has year round school, then the time in which AP tests are taken will be adjusted accordingly. There is plenty of well documented evidence demonstrating that most students forget 80% of what they had learned the previous year over the course of their summer vacation. Not that hard.

Do I have to demolish everything you said step-by-step?

First, let's take a look at your ridiculous suggestion of a standard, year-round calendar.

Sorry, federal control of primary and secondary schools WON'T happen in the US. No matter how hard you cross your fingers and say "I wish it would, I wish it would", it just won't happen. No elected official would stand for...nor would the great majority of American citizens. That's just how the situation is. Sorry if you can't wrap your mind around it.



And you haven't even touched on how private schools would deal with it.

Secondly, I find the claim that sudents forget 80% of what they learned the previous year over summer holiday ridiculous. Gee...I guess for me, that'd indicate I've forgotten vector calculus, chemistry, Newtonian physics...and wait, wait...I think my very command of the English language is beginning to fade! How can I possibly get through my second semester? Oh, if only I'd been in a year-round school!

Another question: How exactly does one quantitatively measure what students forgot? Is that even possible? Discuss amongst yourselves.





But we're not talking about Graduate Degrees. And let's not forget that those Universities that you listed accept even less international students than American Schools. Also, America has more colleges and Universities. Satellite Campuses up the wazoo.

Then you should have specified that. However, even if we're talking about undergraduate degrees, the same principle holds true. Ask yourself: How many Americans go over-seas to recieve their undergraduate education? Then ask: How many foreign-born students come to America to recieve their education?

Ponder that for a bit.

I don't understand what you're getting at with your "accept even less international students than American Schools." Sorry, are you a product of the American educational system (I kid, I kid!)? Try to form a coherent argument and I shall respond to it.

Certainly, America has more colleges and universities. It is a fact that for Americans, college admissions is a buyer's market: it is completely saturated. Do we really need a University of Texas-El Paso and a Texas State University-San Marcos? Probably not, but that does not change the fact that the University of Texas-Austin is one of the top schools in the world.



Hardly a "hands down" assessment. Think about this for a moment. How many students go to those eight colleges? How many of those places are satellite campuses? How well do students there stack up academically for undergrad as opposed to other countries?
You still need to get out more.

Hardly a hands-down assessment? Okay, then, let's see YOUR ranking of the top universities in the world. Please, by all means...and make sure to provide the formulae you've used and the data sets you've relied on.

The final part of your post literally makes no sense. What does it matter how many students go to those eight colleges? No matter what, those colleges (universities, actually, but I'll let that slide) are AMERICAN and they educate the cream of the crop of the entire world.

Also, understand this: This is not a "RAH RAH GO AMERICA NUMBER 1" post. Certainly, primary and secondary schools in America are, by and large, not as good as they are in the rest of the world.

However, I am simply stating the facts re university education.

This is completely true. On the flipside, however, their accessibility is limited to 0.1% of the population (maybe) because of the insanely high costs.

Potyondi,

Yes, of course.

Still, many of America's state universities and colleges are affordable and rank among the top in the world in science and engineering (I'm majoring in applied math and physics).

However, I would not go to them for a liberal arts education. In that regard, American state schools are, by and large, not up to snuff.

I think you've said you're a history major, correct?

Wow, good memory. :cool:

I go to an above-average Canadian school where the arts are well-represented and emphasised, although underfunded (especially compared to engineering faculties). Tuition, however, is greatly subsidised and amounts to about $5000/year Cdn.

You need to get out more :) I found this and its a far better survey than the one you posted. USA does very well but it aint everthing. 20 of the top 65 are US.

http://www.nus.edu.sg/iro/docs/world-rankings-16pages.pdf

Its a pdf so I cant cut and paste

You need to get out more :) I found this and its a far better survey than the one you posted. USA does very well but it aint everthing. 20 of the top 65 are US.

http://www.nus.edu.sg/iro/docs/world-rankings-16pages.pdf

Its a pdf so I cant cut and paste

That does not really change anything.

Seven of the top ten are still American.

Almost 31% of the top 65 universities can be found in one country-the US. The UK comes in second, representing 13% of the top 65 univesities. The US still has more than double the number of top 65 universities as the next biggest on the list.

Of course, all the universities mentioned there are excellent and anyone can get an outstanding education at anyone of them-really, it isn't so much as where you spend your four years, but what you put into them.

"About 55 percent of students taking physics in the United States, for example, are taught by someone who never majored or minored in the subject."



Also, to get back on the subject...

This is why.

You don't need a degree in "education" or a teacher's certificate to teach (or at least you shouldn't).

You need to know about the subject you are teaching. Someone who has not majored in physics has no business teaching it at a high school or even middle school level. The same holds true for history, English, Latin, etc.

Why has the US education system slipped so far?

The answer is: Catering to the lowest common denominator. Our school system does not distinguish as to any given child's needs, aptitude, or ability. In essence, it is a one-size-fits-all system that leaves behind those that are both gifted, and those barely able to cope in the classroom but not bad enough to be put into an alternative education system (which is often worse).

It has nothing to do with time in the classroom... while that may help in some instances, if a child is bright (or troubled), and consequently bored because they aren't being challenged (or don't get it), NO amount of time in a classroom will change that.

Another related aspect is that people learn through life experience. This includes colleges. Schools just give the basic tools, such as math, science, history, etc., but teach little in the way of real world applications... it would be impossible for them to do so. Let's say that a kid has an interest in R/C aircraft. Now, could anybody here seriously argue that there aren't some very good science and engineering lessons to be learned with such a hobby? Yet when was the last time anybody attended a school that offered such a thing?

I also agree that it is a related cultural/societal issue. Parents do not spend enough time with kids. Also, at one time scientists and engineers were considered to be heroes, if a kid has an interest science or math, they are considered nerds.

Do I have to demolish everything you said step-by-step?
You haven't even made a scratch.

First, let's take a look at your ridiculous suggestion of a standard, year-round calendar.
I love products of the system. They don't even know it either.

Sorry, federal control of primary and secondary schools WON'T happen in the US. No matter how hard you cross your fingers and say "I wish it would, I wish it would", it just won't happen. No elected official would stand for...nor would the great majority of American citizens. That's just how the situation is. Sorry if you can't wrap your mind around it.
This isn't abstract mathematics. My point has been consistent that the culture and society of this country need to change, not that it will or would change. Sorry if you can't wrap your mind around that.

And you haven't even touched on how private schools would deal with it.
Frankly, this entire issue is moot. And for any school to be an accredited school, it needs to meet government standards. They'll fall in like they're supposed to.

Secondly, I find the claim that sudents forget 80% of what they learned the previous year over summer holiday ridiculous. Gee...I guess for me, that'd indicate I've forgotten vector calculus, chemistry, Newtonian physics...and wait, wait...I think my very command of the English language is beginning to fade! How can I possibly get through my second semester? Oh, if only I'd been in a year-round school!
Clearly you never learned how to comprehend. It's understandable. I find it hilarious how silly you are. You have no argument. You make no argument. You change what you plan on arguing to something different when you hopefully realize how stupid it is.

Another question: How exactly does one quantitatively measure what students forgot? Is that even possible? Discuss amongst yourselves.
Your English has fallen apart. The simple past is not what you want there. You have contradicting tenses, and you have no subject-verb agreement. "Amongst" is not a word. That answers your above question. To answer this question, it's simple. Research and studies. Hell, if you take a language and don't practice it over the summer, you'll notice the difference.

Then you should have specified that. However, even if we're talking about undergraduate degrees, the same principle holds true. Ask yourself: How many Americans go over-seas to recieve their undergraduate education? Then ask: How many foreign-born students come to America to recieve their education?
Hell, let's jump back to secondary and primary schools. Forget college. How many students can afford to go overseas? Of those foreign students, how many are aliens and how many are here on student visas? But back to the high school stuff. You're jumping all over the educational spectrum. Let's limit it to one set. I could write volumes on the failures of the education system.

Ponder that for a bit.
What you said.

I don't understand what you're getting at with your "accept even less international students than American Schools." Sorry, are you a product of the American educational system (I kid, I kid!)? Try to form a coherent argument and I shall respond to it.
Perhaps you didn't know this, but to be able to go to a college or university, one must apply and be accepted. Foreign schools tend to give preference to students from their own country over foreigners to a greater extent than American colleges and Universities.

Certainly, America has more colleges and universities. It is a fact that for Americans, college admissions is a buyer's market: it is completely saturated. Do we really need a University of Texas-El Paso and a Texas State University-San Marcos? Probably not, but that does not change the fact that the University of Texas-Austin is one of the top schools in the world.
Whatever.

Hardly a hands-down assessment? Okay, then, let's see YOUR ranking of the top universities in the world. Please, by all means...and make sure to provide the formulae you've used and the data sets you've relied on.
You claimed that America is the best "hands down." Well, considering the fairly even mix, proportionately, of your list, America is about the same, or maybe slightly higher than the rest of the world, but certainly not the best by far.

The final part of your post literally makes no sense. What does it matter how many students go to those eight colleges? No matter what, those colleges (universities, actually, but I'll let that slide) are AMERICAN and they educate the cream of the crop of the entire world.
Actually, it makes lots of sense. Let me give you an analogy. I'll give you the dumb **** analogy (so named because usually it's a dumb **** who requires it). You live in a place where there are five hundred burger joints. Of those five hundred, four are the healthiest around. The rest are okay. One state over, there are one hundred ten burger joints. One of them is in the top five. The rest are pretty good, and are better than or comparable to where you live. Okay, you would claim that you have the better burger joints overall because you have the top four of five, while the other location only has the fifth place. However, the other place is superior portionately. Your place has one good burger joint for every 125 joints. The other place has one good one for every 110. That makes them better on average. Same thing with America vs. the World.

Also, understand this: This is not a "RAH RAH GO AMERICA NUMBER 1" post. Certainly, primary and secondary schools in America are, by and large, not as good as they are in the rest of the world.
Which then affects college standards.

However, I am simply stating the facts re university education.
More failures of the English language. And you are jumping all over the educational board. And you have yet to address the issue of pedagogy at any level.

You don't need a degree in "education" or a teacher's certificate to teach (or at least you shouldn't).
Wrong. Amazing what even a modicum of knowledge can do to your arguments. I'll give you an acronym, and that's all you need to know. NCBLA

You need to know about the subject you are teaching. Someone who has not majored in physics has no business teaching it at a high school or even middle school level. The same holds true for history, English, Latin, etc.
How many qualified individuals apply for such jobs? Or do you believe that class sizes should increase dramatically?

Secondly, I find the claim that sudents forget 80% of what they learned the previous year over summer holiday ridiculous. Gee...I guess for me, that'd indicate I've forgotten vector calculus, chemistry, Newtonian physics...and wait, wait...I think my very command of the English language is beginning to fade! How can I possibly get through my second semester? Oh, if only I'd been in a year-round school!


Actually, what flaming said is correct. There is something called the forgetting curve, which illustrates the decline of memory retention in time. A typical graph of the forgetting curve shows that humans tend to halve their memory of newly learned knowledge in a matter of days or weeks unless they consciously review the learned material.

So in a typical classroom application, most students show the the retention of 90% after 3-6 days (depending on the material.) This means that, in this period, the forgetting curve falls by 10%. Retention gets worse as time goes on if the material isnt reviewed.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve)

My memory retention is MUCH worse, I would forget stuff in 5 minutes. Then again, I was always asleep or drawing in class. :hmm:

One thing you really must look at tho is the cost of the education at the various institutions. For example Tuition at Harvard, MIT etc is around 30k US per year while tuition at University of BC, University of Toronto is about 5600 US per year. All are in the top 100 but consider the difference in access for Canadian Students at 6k per year compared to the US student at 6 times that amount. Generally I see costs up here for the best schools about what it costs to go to a lower tier state school in the US. To attend a commuity college here it is about half of the University costs at 3k per year. I would argue that cost is a big factor in restricting access to higher education and could perhaps be one factor in the US decline.

Secondly, I find the claim that sudents forget 80% of what they learned the previous year over summer holiday ridiculous. Gee...I guess for me, that'd indicate I've forgotten vector calculus, chemistry, Newtonian physics...and wait, wait...I think my very command of the English language is beginning to fade! How can I possibly get through my second semester? Oh, if only I'd been in a year-round school!

Another question: How exactly does one quantitatively measure what students forgot? Is that even possible? Discuss amongst yourselves.

Anything can be measured. The fact that schools in the United States, despite having the 2nd or 3rd largest budget anywhere, haven't managed to understand retention points once again to my assertion that US public schools are run by money wasting incompetents. These are BASIC facts about students any half wit would have researched by now. Unfortunately there aren't any of those in public education.

Can you imagine a private business - knowing almost nothing about it's customers - lasting more than a week?

Unbelievable.

Did you know that out of the thousands of colleges/universities in the United States, that NOT ONE tests graduates on what they retained? Not one. It's a topic that comes up for debate periodically, to get repressed due to the fact that it would reflect badly on teachers, the university administration etc. So they axe the idea quick.

IMO it has a lot to do with television.