www.rollingstone.com/politics?pageid=rs.home&pageregion=nav.

Nice picture of Bush and the head of Jesusland.

Also some interesting data,including:The youth vote DID come out overwhelmingly for Kerry.

The majority of whites have voted Republican ever since Lyndon Johnson signed the 1964 Civil Rights and 1965 Voting Act laws.

Bush's support among working-class white women went up from 12% to 17%, Bush and Rove's gay-bashing palyed a big part in that.

Rolling Stone eh? Why not Ask Sponge Bob for his opinion too?

Why not Ask Sponge Bob for his opinion too?

I think you'd get more sage observations from BEAVIS & BUTT-HEAD!

The majority of whites have voted Republican ever since Lyndon Johnson signed the 1964 Civil Rights and 1965 Voting Act laws.
How is this a bad thing? :|
Bush's support among working-class white women went up from 12% to 17%, Bush and Rove's gay-bashing palyed a big part in that.
This makes no sense TT. How do you figure this?

MTV's Wreck The Vote really paid off. :hmm:

How is this a bad thing? :|


It means modern conservatives have made their progress by appealing to the prejudices of people.

In signing the 1964 Civil Rights Act Lyndon Johnson said this means he had given the South to the Republican Party.

The fact the Democrats have not gotten the mjority of the white vote since 1964 proves that many former Democrats went Republican because of their prejudice against blacks .

Maybe you are against the 1964 Civil Rigths Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act,blacks would still be subjuagted if it weren't for those two bills .



This makes no sense TT. How do you figure this?

Didja read the articles in the link?

Bush's call for a constitutional admendment over marriage is subjugation and that is gay bashing.

The anti-Gay evangelicals voted to keep people subjugated ,based only on their dogma.

Modern conservatism is an ideology that plays to people's fears and prejudices,thereby keeping people [and society in general] from being the best they can be.

huh i didn't vote for kerry and i'm a youth (i didn't vote for bush, either).

puff daddy will surely kill me now.

The fact the Democrats have not gotten the mjority of the white vote since 1964 proves that many former Democrats went Republican because of their prejudice against blacks .

Umm no...All you can conclude by this is that most southern whites have decided that Republican presidential candidates were better than the alternatives offered by the Democrats. There was nothing in the article that addressed prejudice as a motive. Motives may have included civil rights issues, but could aslo include a myriad of factors.....big vs small govt, taxes, welfare, defense, abortion, etc.. It also ignores the fact that in spite of going for Republican Presidents, many Southern states still vote for Democratic Governors, Senators, and Congressmen.


Didja read the articles in the link?

yep...as an aside to 86 and others lampooning the source, it was actually a decent article in spite of being from Rolling Stone. Decent credentials on the guys being interviewed.


Bush's call for a constitutional admendment over marriage is subjugation and that is gay bashing.

The anti-Gay evangelicals voted to keep people subjugated ,based only on their dogma.

Modern conservatism is an ideology that plays to people's fears and prejudices,thereby keeping people [and society in general] from being the best they can be.
Even if the above assertions were true, this still doesn't explain to me how you conclude that it played a big part in Bush's improved performance among white female voters.

Plus you misinterpreted the numbers from the article...
His margin of victory among whites widened from twelve to seventeen points -- and almost all of that was among white working-class women.
This is quite different from saying
Bush's support among working-class white women went up from 12% to 17%

The first talks about the margin of victory among whites Bush had over Kerry...58% to 41% = 17% margin of victory.
Your interpretation implies Bush only garnered 17% of white working-class women's votes. It was more like 55%.

Maybe you should read the article more carefully.

Rolling Stone eh? Why not Ask Sponge Bob for his opinion too?


:lol:


Maybe Miss Cleo has some insight for them also.

The South and Republicans are so racist that they vote for an Administration that lines its cabinet with blacks.

The coastal metropolises and Democrats are so tolerant that they label these blacks as Uncle Toms.

Who are we to question TT? Apparently, things are black and white in his fantasy land.

All white people who voted for Bush are racists. :rolleyes:

Umm no...All you can conclude by this is that most southern whites have decided that Republican presidential candidates were better than the alternatives offered by the Democrats. There was nothing in the article that addressed prejudice as a motive. Motives may have included civil rights issues, but could aslo include a myriad of factors.....big vs small govt, taxes, welfare, defense, abortion, etc.. It also ignores the fact that in spite of going for Republican Presidents, many Southern states still vote for Democratic Governors, Senators, and Congressmen.


Yeah but the Southern Democarts of that era were even more right-wing than modern-day Republicans when those guys died or quit Repubs got their seats.

One has to be in denial not to think that the South going Republican after the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act were passed is more than a concidence.

Even Lyndon Johnson admitted that by doing so he had given the South to the Republicans



Even if the above assertions were true, this still doesn't explain to me how you conclude that it played a big part in Bush's improved performance among white female voters.

Plus you misinterpreted the numbers from the article...

This is quite different from saying


The first talks about the margin of victory among whites Bush had over Kerry...58% to 41% = 17% margin of victory.
Your interpretation implies Bush only garnered 17% of white working-class women's votes. It was more like 55%.

Maybe you should read the article more carefully.

Figures lie and liars figure.

Stats can be interpeted to say anyhting one wants them to.
Who are we to question TT? Apparently, things are black and white in his fantasy land.


Woah,unprovoked personal attack there buddy.


All white people who voted for Bush are racists. :rolleyes:

When did I say those exact words?

You hear what you think I say and don't listen to what I actually say.

i actually liked Rolling Stone when they kept their **** to music :(

i actually liked Rolling Stone when they kept their **** to music :(

When was that?

It wasn't when I was young.

In fact ,while RS had nothing to do with my radicalization, it was a reinforcement of it [or as the late Ralph Gleason said "A letter from home"].

It was my Bible back then,it hasn't been my Bible since Elvis died [back when I was 21],but it still has good ,even great stuff in it.

Dont like RS personally. Good article though. Dont need it to tell me why Bush won though. It is obvious. Bush was favored by the majority of Americans as at the least the better of the 2 candidates with a real chance of winning. No in depth article needed, because there is no major mystery. He got more votes therefore he won. :)

Yeah but the Southern Democarts of that era were even more right-wing than modern-day Republicans when those guys died or quit Repubs got their seats.

One has to be in denial not to think that the South going Republican after the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act were passed is more than a concidence.

Even Lyndon Johnson admitted that by doing so he had given the South to the Republicans

Yes the civil rights act may have moved some to vote Republican for President. I don't deny that. I do deny the implied message that this is the only or the major reason for the change. Your statement and even Johnson's amount to nothing more than opinion. Any research or surveys conducted to figure out why the Southern Democrats turned to Republican Presidential candidates? It's equally possible that the Democrat's positioning on other issues turned away conservative and moderate Democrats. Are you implying that the Civil Rights Act was the single deciding issue? That Democrat's stance on issues such as big vs small govt, taxes, welfare, defense, abortion, etc., did not move Southern Democrats to vote for Republican Presidents instead?

Figures lie and liars figure.

Stats can be interpeted to say anyhting one wants them to.

Yes, stats can usually be found/created to support any point of view. I was merely pointing out your error in interpreting the stats as presented in the RS article. You got it wrong TT. Refute the stats if you want, but don't try to make them say something that they don't, or pretend that your interpretation is also valid. The stats in the article clearly refer to margin of victory among whites, your interpretation (or rather misinterpretation) refers to level of support among working white women. Definitely not the same thing.

Furthermore, you have yet to explain how Bush and Rove's gay bashing played a big part in influencing white working women as you suggested in the first post. If this was not what you intended, please clarify. If it was, please enlighten us on how white working women were moved to vote for Bush due to Bush and Rove's gay bashing.

That Jesus and Bush picture was just too funny.

But I seriously don't think Jesus would like Bush. He would probibly beat him the way he did all those money changers in the Temple.

Yes the civil rights act may have moved some to vote Republican for President. I don't deny that. I do deny the implied message that this is the only or the major reason for the change. Your statement and even Johnson's amount to nothing more than opinion. Any research or surveys conducted to figure out why the Southern Democrats turned to Republican Presidential candidates? It's equally possible that the Democrat's positioning on other issues turned away conservative and moderate Democrats. Are you implying that the Civil Rights Act was the single deciding issue? That Democrat's stance on issues such as big vs small govt, taxes, welfare, defense, abortion, etc., did not move Southern Democrats to vote for Republican Presidents instead?



I would also argue that Barry Goldwater in '64 and George Wallace in '68 carried the deep South as a backlash against civil rights based on what people in the deep South themselves actually said.

I would also argue that those other issues you mentioned didn't come into play into well into the 70's.

No race is not the only issue [though I would argue that people who are against civil rigths lean to the right on other issues as well],but one has to be in serious denial to say it wasn't the main issue in '64 and '68.


Furthermore, you have yet to explain how Bush and Rove's gay bashing played a big part in influencing white working women as you suggested in the first post. If this was not what you intended, please clarify. If it was, please enlighten us on how white working women were moved to vote for Bush due to Bush and Rove's gay bashing.

Exit polls show that main reason Bush won was due to that same-sex marriage issue,that issue brought evangelicals out to the polls in record numbers,it also made undereducated,unsophisticated people vote for Bush.

The results show the women [who were the "undecided" we saw in polls most of the summer] were women of lower education,it doesn't take musch to put two and two together.

That Jesus and Bush picture was just too funny.

But I seriously don't think Jesus would like Bush. He would probibly beat him the way he did all those money changers in the Temple.

:nice:

No race is not the only issue [though I would argue that people who are against civil rigths lean to the right on other issues as well],but one has to be in serious denial to say it wasn't the main issue in '64 and '68.

A main issue, yes. The main issue...no. What about Nam maybe?


Exit polls show that main reason Bush won was due to that same-sex marriage issue,that issue brought evangelicals out to the polls in record numbers,it also made undereducated,unsophisticated people vote for Bush.

The results show the women [who were the "undecided" we saw in polls most of the summer] were women of lower education,it doesn't take musch to put two and two together.

The moral issues and the importance attributed to the evangelicals appears to be overblown according to this...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/15/folklore.tm/
And it turns out that a "moral value" is in the conscience of the beholder. In a poll due out this week from the Center for American Progress, a left-leaning think tank, 42% of respondents said the war in Iraq was the most important moral issue influencing their vote, compared with 13% who chose abortion and less than 10% who chose gay marriage.

The article also claims that the percent of frequent churchgoers was the same as in 2000, based on results from a Democratic pollster.

The rest of your argument falls apart from there. All you've offered is speculation that the same-sex marriage issue influenced (now it's undereducated/unsophisticated) white female voters. You have simply presented a guess at what happened. I can play that game too.....

Let's assume for a moment you're correct and the undereducated, unsophisticated white female voters swung to Bush.
Maybe they did respond to the anti-gay bashing as represented by the same-sex ballot issues....after all they're undereducated and unsophisticated so they must have some aversion to gays. :rolleyes:
Maybe they just think Bush was cuter than Kerry....they're undereducated and unsophisticated after all...why not vote based on looks. :rolleyes:
Maybe their husbands/fathers/boyfriends convinced them to vote for Bush due to the NRA propoganda that Kerry had a plan to outlaw guns/hunting....they're undereducated and unsophisticated, so they probably have male family and friends that hunt.....maybe those ladies just didn't want to go without their venison? :rolleyes:
Maybe the terror warnings and the ongoing war in Iraq was a factor that swayed them....after all they're undereducated and unsophisticated, so they likely have friends and family in the military....isn't it possible that those family members convinced them to vote for Bush because they felt he would be a better CIC? :rolleyes:

If one sticks to the premise that the undereducated, unsophisticated white female voters swung to Bush, any one of these seems equally plausible (or absurd). That doesn't make any of them correct (or wrong). They are all equally easy to shoot holes in though. Believe what you want, but I prefer to see evidence before making broad statements and assertions such as those you've made.

Sarcasim will get you nowhere. :not:

Sarcasim will get you nowhere. :not:

Tell that to Jerry Seinfeld, George Carlin, Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle... :D

By the way....nothing personal here....just saw holes in your logic on this one. I actually liked your post in the gay marriage thread. Pretty reasonable sounding solution from one who insists a big reason white women turned to Bush was because of gay bashing. :p

Sorry, I don't buy it.....most women I've been around (even the undereducated, unsophisticated types) seem much more tolerant of gays than men of the same social/educational/economic class. Annectdotal I know...and proves nothing....still, neither have you. :shrug:

Guess we'll agree to disagree on this one.

methinks rolling stone magazine needs to stick to what they're good at, interviewing pop stars.

And I don't take it personally.

Still,I went into my interpetations of things,to agree or disagree is fine but I ddin't make them up out of thin air and that's what was getting under me.

Tell that to Jerry Seinfeld, George Carlin, Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle... :D


Good one.:nice:

The problem is neither you nor I have their talent.

i'm not political analyst...but i'm pretty sure he won because he got more elctoral votes...just an observation...