Just curious if I am the only person who sees this as a futile effort, or if nothing else a political cloaking device to make people think it is something that can actually be done.

To me it's like saying we will "win the war on hate" and no one will ever hate another person again.

I mean if we implant a device in everyone's brain and program them to never hate or say...i dont know...never blow up another mass tranist device. Oh wait...that was covered in the Matrix or something.

Anyway...thoughts?

You're quite right, Gary. It's just a hype to gain more votes and get re-elected.

Of course not.

One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

So no it is not possible.

I will say we won when I no longer feel threated when I plan for travel abroad. If we follow the right path, that day will come. In the meantime, everyday we are safe we win this day. Just like everyday you are happy if you were not killed by a car accident.

One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
So no it is not possible.
Freedom fighter does not target civilian.

Freedom fighter does not target civilian.

All the sides in WWII targetted civlians, were they all terrorists?

You won't know untill you try.

just look what happened at the "unstopable force of liberty" aka communism. its possible but not completely i guess. cuz they are still commies out there in the world.

All the sides in WWII targetted civlians, were they all terrorists?
reference?

if the war on drugs is an indication....we'll be overrun with terrorists in no time flat.

well its already a cliche that many americans dont want war on drugs. when u fight and u dont believe in it, u lose. because the drug dealers will have more conviction and nerve.

NO it isnt. It is possible to put criminals in jail but thats the job of the cops not M1 Abrams tanks. M1's just create thousands of new little terrorists. Deal with the issues that create terrorists and you might make some headway. And the primary issue in the Middle east is.....Israel/palistine. But as long as the US tries to play the power broker while clearly supporting one side that issue will continue to fester.

In short no... it is impossible to stop ideas or ideologies.

reference?

Do you really need references? Does the allied fire-bombing of Dresden or Tokyo ring a bell? Germany's V1 and V2 attacks on London? Japan's atrocities in China? Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

To me it's like saying we will "win the war on hate" and no one will ever hate another person again.

Does that mean you shouldn't try? SHould we accept terror because it exists?
In short no... it is impossible to stop ideas or ideologies.
I agree


"What we tolerate, we cultivate" JB

It means that this war is one fought with ideas not CVA's, F16's and tanks. It is fought with humanitarian aid, education and good will. The criminals should be dealt with where ever they are by police, lawyers and Special ops units.

You can defeat the terrorists, incarcerate them and cut off their base but you dont do that by droping 500 lb JDAM's on residential housing. So far US intel has not proved itself solid enough for that. The collateral damage in civilians simply creates too much ill will and rightly so.

It means that this war is one fought with ideas not CVA's, F16's and tanks. It is fought with humanitarian aid, education and good will.
.
You can't win a pissing duel let alone a war by fighting with ideas. Wars are the enforcement of ideology. The good will is all nice and dandy, but when there are real enemies inflicting real damage then you must remove that threat....you can clean up the mess and help heal the wounds after with good will.


The criminals should be dealt with where ever they are by police, lawyers and Special ops units. . Sorry Cherry, but we have learned that you cannot treat this as a police issue. It's more then a few individuals or groups. It also takes cooperation and support from countries or global entities.....the war is with those groups as much as with the individual terrorists

You can't win a pissing duel let alone a war by fighting with ideas.

Thats cause its not a war. It is a battle of ideas. You'all just like to call crap like this wars to get the populace to support it and ignore the reality. BTW hows the "War on Drugs" going. Spending billions in a losing effort. That ones a health problem which you win through education and treating addiction as a health issue. But you guys just love all those shinny guns and storm trooper uniforms. So go ahead spend your way into abject poverty all the while losing the battle. But you guys should be used to losing by now eh.

Does that mean you shouldn't try? SHould we accept terror because it exists?

Huh? Even when you know you can't win it, you should at least try? :confused:

Great fatalistic attitude, but not a very productive one.

reference?

Pick up any history book aimed at the over 7 age group.

The find references to Guernica, London, Coventry, Dresden, Hamburg, Warsaw, Leningrad, etc etc etc.

(not forgetting of course those two whoppers on Hiroshima and nagasaki).

Huh? Even when you know you can't win it, you should at least try? :confused:

Not sure I understand your post but i'll respond the way I think you mean it:

I was making the comparison to what he said...From what I read he makes it sound like we can't win a war on terror just as you can't win a war against hate; my response was to question whether or not we should try (you can tell what my answer is from my posts)
Great fatalistic attitude, but not a very productive one.it's a lot more productive then doing nothing at all don't you think? As a matter of fact, to do nothing is to accept terrorism and to allow it to grow...it is what I was trying to get across with the quote I posted

In short no... it is impossible to stop ideas or ideologies.

Like Nazism and Communism.

get ur facts striaght. the commies still have huge popularity in europe, especially russia. look at their parliaments. dont get happpy. thats the same way right-wingers thought about the liberals in 1848, that they can keep their monarchial order. for commies the defeat in cold war was nothing but a little postponement.

Yep, 1848 part II is well on its way. We'll all be patiently waiting.... :p

You can't win a pissing duel let alone a war by fighting with ideas. Wars are the enforcement of ideology. The good will is all nice and dandy, but when there are real enemies inflicting real damage then you must remove that threat....you can clean up the mess and help heal the wounds after with good will.


Sorry Cherry, but we have learned that you cannot treat this as a police issue. It's more then a few individuals or groups. It also takes cooperation and support from countries or global entities.....the war is with those groups as much as with the individual terrorists

How have you learned it? The world was quite successful in dealing with groups like the red Brigade etc during the 70's. They were heavily supported by countries most notably the Soviets. I would argue that the extremeists in this case are really supported by religious factions with in countries not so much by the country itself. Iraq is a real good example of how not to fight terrorists. In using force you simply spread the problem to groups who previously were at least neutral making them "the sea in which insurgents swim"

We need to deal with terrorists but the way the US is tackling it is doomed to failure. And on top of that it is expensive. This is a job for cops supported by courts with the ability to use Spec. Forces to apprehend or interdict the terrorists. And Iraq simply was not a major supporter of any terror groups aimed at North America rather it was a supporter of groups that were involved in the Israel/Palistine issue. If you want to deal with that then the arbriter cannot be a supporter of either side. The US just cannot be successful in that role as it is a major Israeli supporter. I would not doubt that without US support Israel would be greatly challenged to maintain its self.

Yep, 1848 part II is well on its way. We'll all be patiently waiting.... :p
thats what the anti-democrats said. remember the cons(who were called monarchists) of the 19th century wanted to preseve the religous, and hierchial system of the "old regime". and they despaterly opposed democracy on the grounds that it wouldnt work. the same way anti-commies are fighting back like animals. how many dictators did america help in american continent. lets see. cuba, nicaragua, guatemala, chile, honduras, el salvador. all of these repressive dictators were indeed good allies against communism. remember hitler was a fervent ani-communist too.

Like Nazism and Communism.

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

Neither of those philosophies has been stopped... not by a longshot. The Third Reich was stopped in WWII, but not the ideas and values that they stood for.

Likewise, we may have helped the Soviet Union collapse, but we didn't defeat it. The U.S. attempt to convert Vietnam from going communist was a dismal failure. There are still communist nations on this planet, and as Dorag pointed out, it still has a following.

Religious extremism and terrorism have been around as long as humans have walked the earth. Islam itself has been around 1000 years, so it is safe to say that it has withstood the test of time. The roots of the problems in the Mid East go back thousands of more years. Anybody who thinks that Islam, terrorism, or religious extremism can be defeated on a battlefield is either woefully ignorant of history or not playing with a full deck.

Pick up any history book aimed at the over 7 age group.

The find references to Guernica, London, Coventry, Dresden, Hamburg, Warsaw, Leningrad, etc etc etc.

(not forgetting of course those two whoppers on Hiroshima and nagasaki).
Most if not all are intend to destroy the fighting capability. Hiroshima demostrate the power of US army with intend to stop the war.

What war is terrorists try to stop? Iraq war is already stoped. US will leave when democratically elected goverment requests.

Well, if you're going to argue that the current success of Communist and Nazi party movements are examples of why the United States will ultimately fail in Iraq, then I guess we'll just have to settle for that illusory victory, which I certainly will. :D

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

Neither of those philosophies has been stopped... not by a longshot. The Third Reich was stopped in WWII, but not the ideas and values that they stood for.

Likewise, we may have helped the Soviet Union collapse, but we didn't defeat it. The U.S. attempt to convert Vietnam from going communist was a dismal failure. There are still communist nations on this planet, and as Dorag pointed out, it still has a following.

Religious extremism and terrorism have been around as long as humans have walked the earth. Islam itself has been around 1000 years, so it is safe to say that it has withstood the test of time. The roots of the problems in the Mid East go back thousands of more years. Anybody who thinks that Islam, terrorism, or religious extremism can be defeated on a battlefield is either woefully ignorant of history or not playing with a full deck.

nothing is new. especially not terrorism. its been around for thousands of years. isnt moldavia'a prez a commies and polands' also. BTW?

Well, if you're going to argue that the current success of Communist and Nazi party movements are examples of why the United States will ultimately fail in Iraq, then I guess we'll just have to settle for that illusory victory, which I certainly will.
ditto.

Well, if you're going to argue that the current success of Communist and Nazi party movements are examples of why the United States will ultimately fail in Iraq, then I guess we'll just have to settle for that illusory victory, which I certainly will.

Yep, just like Vietnam :nice:

US will leave when democratically elected goverment requests.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Yeah right! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :nice:

Wars are the enforcement of ideology.

YES!!! Finally you say something accurate.

That is why ideology is the devil.

Everyday I fight the urge to call myself a liberal, a paleoconservative, an anarchist, a socialist, an anarcho-capitalo-socialitarian, etc. like an alcoholic fights the urge to drink. No matter how much I agree with someone I will not "join their team" and buy their "ideology".

It's all BS. It all leads to war.

The war we are currently fighting is not "US v. Iraq", it is "Secular Capitalist Plutocracy v. Tribalist Fundamentalism". I don't embrace either one, that's why my feelings on the war are ambiguous, and I suspect a lot of others feel the same way, even if they don't realize it or can't articulate it.

The average person desires an individualist Zen theocracy, they just don't know it.

Most if not all are intend to destroy the fighting capability. Hiroshima demostrate the power of US army with intend to stop the war.

What war is terrorists try to stop? Iraq war is already stoped. US will leave when democratically elected goverment requests.

You didnt pick up those history books I told you to read, you thought up this answer all by yourself didnt you.

Sorry but it's too simplistic and, well wrong for a reply.

You're quite right, Gary. It's just a hype to gain more votes and get re-elected.


So you agree then! Good,now we know how you feel about the middle-east dictaors and thier hold on people who don't vote.

No terrorism will never stop . It is the desire of man to rule over other men . It comes with human nature. Thats why a governing body is needed with laws of society. But it has to be protected from forces within and outside if it is to survive. We will be destroyed from within. We should pick our wars and citizens wisely. We have'nt done this in last century and we are dying.

Fine line between war and policeing and we may have crossed it .

So you agree then! Good,now we know how you feel about the middle-east dictaors and thier hold on people who don't vote.

:rofl: Mindwarp!