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View Full Version : Don't learn from the Americans


coral100cor
11-17-2004, 01:49 PM
By Ze'ev Schiff

Even before the bloody battle in Falluja, when the Americans began using combat aircraft in Baghdad, a city that bustles with civilian life, I had the opportunity to deliver a lecture at an American university. During the lecture, I asked if anyone knew how many people were killed or injured in the previous day's bombing. No one knew. Nor did they know about the casualties in another bombing. The American press does not draw as much attention to certain aspects of this conflict as it does to certain aspects of other people's conflicts.

Since then, the bombing and shelling of population centers in Iraq has taken on larger proportions. It should be hoped that after the tough battle in Falluja is over, and the Americans have a chance to draw lessons, they will reach the conclusion that it would be best to end the practice of preaching morality to the whole world, for instance through practices like the release of an annual report on the human rights situation in the occupied territories.

These reports long ago became detached from reality, and are powerful evidence of the hypocrisy that makes it permissible for the Americans, and other strong nations, to do that that is forbidden to others. If the war on international terror means that they will be engaging in hard-hitting combat, they should at least not be preaching morality to others.

This same conclusion is relevant regarding actions taken by the French in the Ivory Coast in recent days. They came to rescue citizens of France and other states from the fury of a wild mob and, in the course of their mission, killed local civilians without restraint. The extensive harm done to civilians in both instances did not even come in response to an attack - neither by Iraqis nor Africans - against population centers in the U.S. or France. Neither case may be compared to the Palestinians, who intentionally strike at civilians, which they began to do even before the occupation in 1967.

As the Americans were announcing that they had occupied approximately 80 percent of Falluja, representatives of the Red Crescent were reporting that a humanitarian catastrophe was unfolding among the city's civilians. Many of the wounded, including children, are bleeding to death because it is impossible to evacuate them to hospitals. No one is even talking about the destroyed homes and property damage.

The method employed by the Americans calls for using warplanes and artillery in urban areas. This did not start in Falluja. The American armored division that was deployed in Baghdad used the same method. The Americans found themselves in trouble after failing to quell the insurgents in several cities as the date of Iraqi elections drew nearer. Their answer: using an "iron fist" in populated areas. When the Russians did this in Chechnya, President Clinton sharply criticized them. The Iraqi insurgents, who include many foreigners, also show little compassion for the civilians. They have killed more Iraqi civilians than have the Americans.

The strong do not generally torment themselves with moral quandaries during wartime, apparently because they do not feel that they have to gain the legitimization of the international public opinion. An intense dispute broke out in Israel following the deaths of 13 civilians from a bomb dropped by an Israel Air Force jet with the aim of liquidating arch-murderer Salah Shehada, who was responsible for the deaths of many Israeli civilians. The Shehada case became a formative event for the IDF, especially its air force.

In its wake, numerous technical and procedural actions were taken. There has been increased recognition of the fact that this is not World War II and not the War of Independence, that the State of Israel requires legitimacy in Israeli public opinion, too, for its military actions, even when it feels that it is facing an existential war.

This quiet quest for legitimacy led the defense industries in Israel to develop special warheads for missiles fired from helicopters - mainly in "targeted assassinations" - which cause a minimum of collateral damage outside the vehicles. The Israel Air Force graphs show a steady decline in the number of casualties not involved in terrorism. Indeed, the majority of Palestinian civilians that have been killed or wounded in recent months were hit by gunfire from ground troops. Israel is at least trying to correct the situation and does not preach to others how to behave on the battlefield.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/502510.html

Opinions?

Dogberry
11-17-2004, 01:51 PM
Ahhhh poor misunderstood Israelis.

coral100cor
11-17-2004, 01:55 PM
Ahhhh poor misunderstood Israelis.

I see, not even a little thought that maybe there is some point here...

Dogberry
11-17-2004, 01:57 PM
No not really.

Looks like self pitying drivel.

In any case why are you suddenly turning on your benefactors? Without the US you'd be toast.

coral100cor
11-17-2004, 02:05 PM
No not really.

Looks like self pitying drivel.

In any case why are you suddenly turning on your benefactors? Without the US you'd be toast.

Who is "you"?
Are you suggesting that israeli journalist has no right to publish critical opinion of some US actions?

coral100cor
11-17-2004, 02:06 PM
No not really.



Seems that way.

Dogberry
11-17-2004, 02:08 PM
Who is "you"?
Are you suggesting that israeli journalist has no right to publish critical opinion of some US actions?

It looks like an attack on the US to me, which you appear to support, which is why you posted it no?

Jay GW
11-17-2004, 02:28 PM
The US should cut off military aid to the Mid East. Humanitarian aid is ok, but not military aid.

coral100cor
11-17-2004, 03:06 PM
It looks like an attack on the US to me, which you appear to support, which is why you posted it no?

I posted it because I find it interesting.
I posted also an article about accusations against Israel in poisonning Arafat. So?

If it is no clear, the article is talking about two western countries that are actually figthing those days and who, in the author opinion, are not demanding from themselves the same high moral standarts they expect from Israel, and that Israel is expecting from itself.

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 04:30 PM
Opinions?

Quite interesting (I woundn't expect less from haaretz, a newspaper I've come to like and respect over the years ...)
I might even agree with some of the points raised :
I sure striked me as especially eerily hypocritical when the US asked Israel to show some restraint in its armed interventions in the occupied territories in the very time it was bombing fallujah (and, if Iraqbodycount is to be believed, killing 600 civilians in the process ...)

Mr. Anarky
11-17-2004, 04:43 PM
First of all, who the hell in the USA govt preaches to Israel about their atrocities? I wish they did. As far as I can tell, Israel pulls the triggers and the USA keeps handing them the bullets.

Now this:

Israel is at least trying to correct the situation and does not preach to others how to behave on the battlefield.

What a joke. Of course, Israel can't preach to others. It is oozing w/ war crimes and crimes against humanity. That the USA preaches to others about these matters is a consequence of the exceptionalism & moral stupidity that characterize all dominant imperial powers in history.

86Dude
11-17-2004, 05:07 PM
Since this thread is destined to become a "why do we support Israel" style thread, Coral, in your words why does the United States support your nation so vehemently? Honest question, not a trap or anything.

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 05:22 PM
Without the US you'd be toast.

Thinking of that : Just wondering : why and when did France stop to arm Israel ?

saboo
11-17-2004, 05:26 PM
Hmmm.....apparently the vermin (i.e insurgents, terrorists) use the cover of city to protect them. Use civilians for protection. I find it amusing that your dumping on the USA for bombing cities when US troops are subject to roadside bombs, suicide bombers, snipers.....from these vermin who cut the heads off of innocent workers and aid workers.

I'm sure the USA does all it can to provide warning to the civilians to get out before being caught up in a city that is about to come under attack.

Your posting is comical at best.........

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 05:28 PM
Your posting is comical at best.........

rrright ...
Haaretz is a comical newspaper , and Killing 600 civilians in Fallujah in April is jolly good funny ...
hahaha ...

Dogberry
11-17-2004, 05:46 PM
Thinking of that : Just wondering : why and when did France stop to arm Israel ?

I dont know.

And to be honest dont care.

Should I?

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 05:48 PM
I dont know.

And to be honest dont care.

I owuld have guess ... and to be honest I wasn't asking you, old chap :p

Dogberry
11-17-2004, 05:55 PM
I owuld have guess ... and to be honest I wasn't asking you, old chap :p

Oh ummm riiiight. So who were you asking mon copain?

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 06:06 PM
Coral , I should say ...
Iguess she's the proper authoritative source here to provide me with a quick answer :)

oki
11-17-2004, 07:35 PM
have to say that Israel is handeling situations smarter then bush is.

themistocles
11-17-2004, 08:47 PM
Thinking of that : Just wondering : why and when did France stop to arm Israel ?

Well, I think either right before or right after the 1967 war. I know that by 1970, the Israelis were using American fighter planes...

I don't know the reasons for the shift. If I'm not mistaken, Israel had a specifically warm relationship with De Gaulle, and so maybe it's not a coincidence that we see increased dependence upon the United States for Israel in 1970...Presidents Johnson and Nixon both were pro-Israel, so the time of transition is convenient.

:shrug:

Warbrie
11-17-2004, 08:59 PM
I think it the Israelis have figured out what many countries refuse to acknowledge - the U.N. has no teeth. Why should Sharon (a great leader) listen to them, they don't enforce their resolutions. And as for Fallujah they should have leveled the place without warning.

Bayushi Bob
11-17-2004, 09:14 PM
Well, I think either right before or right after the 1967 war. I know that by 1970, the Israelis were using American fighter planes...

yeah .
Skyhawks and then phantoms, if memory serves ...
And they received their first US Pattons in 1965

Bayushi Bob
11-17-2004, 09:17 PM
And as for Fallujah they should have leveled the place without warning.

Rrrrrrriiight ...
reminds me of the guys over the internet who wanted Kabul nuked jsut after 9/11 (nevermind the Taleban's center of power was in Kandahar, but that's beside the point anyway ...)
After all, they're only ... err ... Camel Jockeys, right ?

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 09:19 PM
btw, the two above posts were me posting from a friend computer, who has a lurkig account ...
Pretty stupid me ... I mean, we don't even have the same colour scheme ...
Now if there would be a way for a mod to be so kind as to fix that, that would be swell ...

Warbrie
11-17-2004, 09:29 PM
Rrrrrrriiight ...
After all, they're only ... err ... Camel Jockeys, right ?


I know it hard to think outside of that box of yours, but if you can bare it try to follow for a second. First off I don't care about race, diversity and skin color is a concern for racebaiters such as yourself to judge people by. How DARE you assume I am basing my statement on race. Secondly, the military gave warning before they entered Fallujah. News flash; warning terrorists you're coming isn't the most effective way of catching them. I would prefer poking through the rubble. Instead El Sadr is gone. Shocking. I too thought he would be waiting for the Marines in the Town square w/ some Beer and Brats.

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 10:00 PM
I know it hard to think outside of that box of yours, but if you can bare it try to follow for a second. First off I don't care about race, diversity and skin color is a concern for racebaiters such as yourself to judge people by. How DARE you assume I am basing my statement on race. Secondly, the military gave warning before they entered Fallujah.

News flash; warning terrorists you're coming isn't the most effective way of catching them.

Newsflash
there are civilians there, and you don't give a flying **** about them
Or so it transpires in you post, hence my rather cavalier reference to "mere camel jockeys"...
Could you please then explain your flippant disregard of civilian lives ?
If not I'll vontinue in the same vein ...

I would prefer poking through the rubble.

your choice, and welcome to the axis of Evil, hope you enjoy your stay ...
And please let me introduce you to Powerboss ...

Instead El Sadr is gone. Shocking. I too thought he would be waiting for the Marines in the Town square w/ some Beer and Brats.

Zarkawi ...
you mean, Zarkawi ...
Since last April's assault on Najaf, Sadr is repectable election material. With a fad stash of US$ to boot ...
I mean, he even has proposed himself as a mediator between the US army and the falllujahs insurgents ....

Warbrie
11-17-2004, 10:10 PM
Newsflash
there are civilians there, and you don't give a flying **** about them (hence my rather cavalier reference to "mere camel jockeys"...)


Since last April's assault on Najaf, Sadr is repectable election material. With a fad stash of US$ to boot ...
I mean, he even has proposed himself as a mediator between the US army and the falllujahs insurgents ....

First off I wouldn't care if this was taking place in Germany... oh wait it did when we bombed the hell out of the White Nazis in Berlin. As a matter of fact we pretty much did level the place. I am sure you cry for them every night.

Hehe you are funny. He also promised his own militia would put down arms but alas they did not. He should be excellent at talking down somebody who doesn't care what he says in the first place, let alone his own followers. I love how people like you think that Cavemen can be negotiated with.

Von Apfelstrudel
11-17-2004, 10:21 PM
First off I wouldn't care if this was taking place in Germany... oh wait it did when we bombed the hell out of the White Nazis in Berlin. As a matter of fact we pretty much did level the place. I am sure you cry for them every night.

And a Godwin point for you sir, congratulation !
nevermind ... I'll humour you all the same :
SO yes, the allies, 50 years ago, responded to Hitler's conventryzations in kind, and on a bigger scale ...
And not only on Germany.
France, and Holland too ..
And little good it did, carpet bombing ...
Except killing civilians .
And bomber pilots .
and *maybe* a few guys working on a messerschmidt asssembly line ...
I mean, the bombings of Dresden or Tokyo can hardly be considered as the pinnacle of western civilization, the very embodyment of its value then, can they?
Sorry If I have difficulties swallowing the trivilazation of such acts .


Hehe you are funny. He also promised his own militia would put down arms but alas they did not. He should be excellent at talking down somebody who doesn't care what he says in the first place, let alone his own followers. I love how people like you think that Cavemen can be negotiated with.

lol .
So I see .. Ther are not camel jockey .. how terribly sorry I am to might have sound as if I had implied you could think that ...
no, they are below that, they are Cavemen ...

coral100cor
11-18-2004, 04:40 AM
Well, I think either right before or right after the 1967 war. I know that by 1970, the Israelis were using American fighter planes...

I don't know the reasons for the shift. If I'm not mistaken, Israel had a specifically warm relationship with De Gaulle, and so maybe it's not a coincidence that we see increased dependence upon the United States for Israel in 1970...Presidents Johnson and Nixon both were pro-Israel, so the time of transition is convenient.

:shrug:

After 1967. They declared an embargo on supplying weapons on the entire Middle East, but soon started selling weapons to Arab states, but not to Israel. Israel turn to US.

coral100cor
11-18-2004, 04:43 AM
Quite interesting (I woundn't expect less from haaretz, a newspaper I've come to like and respect over the years ...)
I might even agree with some of the points raised :
I sure striked me as especially eerily hypocritical when the US asked Israel to show some restraint in its armed interventions in the occupied territories in the very time it was bombing fallujah (and, if Iraqbodycount is to be believed, killing 600 civilians in the process ...)

What about France hypocrisy?

coral100cor
11-18-2004, 04:44 AM
Since this thread is destined to become a "why do we support Israel" style thread, Coral, in your words why does the United States support your nation so vehemently? Honest question, not a trap or anything.

This is a question not for me to answer.

coral100cor
11-18-2004, 04:48 AM
I think it the Israelis have figured out what many countries refuse to acknowledge - the U.N. has no teeth. Why should Sharon (a great leader) listen to them, they don't enforce their resolutions. And as for Fallujah they should have leveled the place without warning.

I supppose Israel had the chance to figure it out the first one because of the huge amount of resolutions against it. It seems that from UN point of few there are no problems in the world - but Israel...

coral100cor
11-18-2004, 05:29 AM
[QUOTE=Von Apfelstrudel]Quite interesting (I woundn't expect less from haaretz, a newspaper I've come to like and respect over the years ...)
[QUOTE]

BTW, the opinions pages in other big israeli newspapers are not less interesting.

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