So.... I've been having some problems w/ my muzzle loader. it's freaking impossible to load, even sabots (plastic) wont got down the bbl w/o beating the **** out of the ram rod w/ a piece of 2x4. I cleaned the living **** out of it a few weeks ago I "MAP"'d it and I also used a lead solvent (shooters choice w. the brass scrubber things) until the patches were coming out clean. I was pretty pissed that I could fire it only once when I went to the range (I was not pounding another bullet down there, it just is not safe IMO). I decided to get a new rifle; I'll take my problematic one to a gunsmith to see if they can "fix" it. Anyways, I picked up one of these (http://www.winchestermuzzleloading.com/products/apex.htm) (stainless/black) .... Basspro website said the gun was $349.... It said $399 in the store.... luckily I took a printout from their website and they honored the $349 price..... Plus there's a $50 mail in rebate.... So I got it for $299, not a bad deal IMO. maybe in the next few weeks I'll get out to the range w/ it and get it ready for next year.

The gun looks nice, I like that it has a long bbl, metal ramrod w/ cleaner jag built in, uses 209 primers w/o the need for a primer carrier, and it feels good shouldered. ..... it's a heavy basterd though. I think I'm going to put a scope on it.... unless someone makes a peep/"reciever" sight for it.

oh ..... it's a .50.

Shoots great! Got a Tasco world class 3-9x40 in silver for $34 and put it on. Had it out to the range today. Seems to like getting a 300gr Hornady XTP sabbot rammed down on 100gr of ffg 777 (loose powder, not the pellets) :nice: I might be able to get it ready for muzzle loader season.... I've got off the week between 12/24 and 1/2... If I don't get one next weekend (the last weekend of normal rifle season... until the two day Jan. season) I'll probably go out with the front loader and try some more.

I also sighted my old marlin .22 (3-9x32 tasco on it) for Remington subsonics .... I am very surprised, the subsonics worked the action (semi-auto) just fine and shot very nice at both 25 and 50 yards (right on the money at both yardages.... no drop)... I want to take it out after some squirels after deer season is over.

Dont shoot your eye out, kid! :D

notch edit: ****, I hit edit instead of quote.

Dont shoot your eye out, kid! :D

notch edit: ****, I hit edit instead of quote.

I'll try not to! .... I have done some dumb ****, luckily it has not hurt me yet! :nice:

awesome. it sounds like fun. :nice: i question the long range accuracy of these . i wonder how consistent it might be. as long as its consistent you know what you've got. sounds like a winner man.

awesome. it sounds like fun. :nice: i question the long range accuracy of these . i wonder how consistent it might be. as long as its consistent you know what you've got. sounds like a winner man.

very consistant @ 50 yards, groups @ 100 yards do open up abit.

very consistant @ 50 yards, groups @ 100 yards do open up abit.

A few inches is anal retentive. Grapefruit at 100 is good 'nuff. :nice:

A few inches is anal retentive. Grapefruit at 100 is good 'nuff. :nice:


I agree! :nice: (for the muzzle loader) 2" is about as wide as I want the .30-06 at 100yrds (incase I choose to take a shot at 250yrds or so, I hunt clear-cuts w/ that gun on occation). I was tired and hungry by the time I got to shooting the muzzleloader at 100yrds..... I'll take it back out and see how it does (I'd be happy with 6" or less for 5 shots @ 100 with it.... otherwise I'll change the load until I find something that shoots at least that good)

err... forgive the intrusion of a Euro weapon baeotian, but ... err.. muzzle loaded like in , say , a Brown Bess ? :eek:

err... forgive the intrusion of a Euro weapon baeotian, but ... err.. muzzle loaded like in , say , a Brown Bess ? :eek:


Kind of .... it is loaded from the muzzle ... pouring the powder in (a mesured powder charge) and then stuffing a bullet down on top of it. .... the rate of twist of the rifling and the ignition system is definitly different though.

wow, must be fun fo fire...
After all, after having gone through the whole loading process, firing it must feel like some sort of reward :D

I agree! :nice: (for the muzzle loader) 2" is about as wide as I want the .30-06 at 100yrds (incase I choose to take a shot at 250yrds or so, I hunt clear-cuts w/ that gun on occation). I was tired and hungry by the time I got to shooting the muzzleloader at 100yrds..... I'll take it back out and see how it does (I'd be happy with 6" or less for 5 shots @ 100 with it.... otherwise I'll change the load until I find something that shoots at least that good)

At 100 yards you've got a target bigger than a pie plate if you go for the heart and lungs, unless its a real small one. With this gun I'd just practice from different positions. I mean, you're limited in range, so you're gonna stalk more. It's much more challenging that's for sure.

I'd shop around for different shaped projectiles too.

At 100 yards you've got a target bigger than a pie plate if you go for the heart and lungs, unless its a real small one. With this gun I'd just practice from different positions. I mean, you're limited in range, so you're gonna stalk more. It's much more challenging that's for sure.

I'd shop around for different shaped projectiles too.


Where I hunt (gun club property).... I'll be hunting from a stand, it's saffer that way :). I've got good railings to rest on and shots could be out to 100yrds or so (maybe a little more when I do some trimming this spring).... I want to get it shooting w/ sabbots... I do have 180's 200's 240's 260's and 300's sabbots, working w/ the 300's right now.

I probably will practice for the still hunt, someday I will be a land owner and have my own land to hunt!

I probably will practice for the still hunt, someday I will be a land owner and have my own land to hunt!

You need to see Colorado.

There is a lot of open space. Hunting parcels next to BLM or National Forest Land is not expensive at all.

People would buy more of it, but the problem is that it snows so much during the winter months you can't live there all year.

The further away from Denver the cheaper it gets. They got 35 acre parcels near Alamosa for less than 10K. But yeah, it snows like 400+ inches a year in some of those areas. I'll bet a lot of wildlife goes unnoticed in those parts.

You need to see Colorado.

There is a lot of open space. Hunting parcels next to BLM or National Forest Land is not expensive at all.

People would buy more of it, but the problem is that it snows so much during the winter months you can't live there all year.

The further away from Denver the cheaper it gets. They got 35 acre parcels near Alamosa for less than 10K. But yeah, it snows like 400+ inches a year in some of those areas. I'll bet a lot of wildlife goes unnoticed in those parts.


sweet! .... that sounds like some cheap stuff. Could be a great investment is those global warming crackpots are right :nice: lol ..... yeah, 400in/year is a tad much, I driving the ole GMC through about 3feet of snow before w/o any trouble..... but the stuff you guys see out there.... there's no way to make it through that much. .... I'mm probably look in WV and N/W PA .... the stuff in MD is expensive, even the stuff on the eastern shore .... maybe a few deals can be found way out west in MD though.

took it back out yesterday.... sub 2" groups at 50yards and left it at that for now ..... taking it out hunting later this week.

it works :nice: took a small doe w/ it 9:30ish this morning.

I had the pleasure of firing my first muzzle loaded gun the day after Christmas. My Uncle and I went out to the back woods of Berks county Pa. My first shot was way off because I wasn't used to the double bang so to speak. It was fun though. :) :nice: I have pictures, I'll post em. I have no idea what kind it was, maybe you'll be able to tell. I do know it was flint lock. :)

I had the pleasure of firing my first muzzle loaded gun the day after Christmas. My Uncle and I went out to the back woods of Berks county Pa. My first shot was way off because I wasn't used to the double bang so to speak. It was fun though. :) :nice: I have pictures, I'll post em. I have no idea what kind it was, maybe you'll be able to tell. I do know it was flint lock. :)


Yeah, the flintlocks do take longer to fire after pullling the trigger then a 209 in-line or something.... I've never fired one, but I imaging the flash from the ffffg in the pan would also get you attention. :nice:

Glad you have fun :nice:

more notes on the gun.

Went out this morning to the range with it. Going out hunting on Thurs-Sat. Changed load: Win regular 209 Primers, Hornady green sabbot, Hornady .44 cal 300gr XTP's, 90gr FFG tripple-7. (backed the powder down to 90gr)Fantastic at 50 and 100 yards... 2" groups. I think 100gr tripple-7 was too much for the sabbots, blasting them down the bbl to fast to engage the rifling 100%... (did not shoot as well as I like @ 100 yards). some powerbelt bullets (245 aero-tip) would probably work well w/ 100gr as they will engauge the rifling better.