Are there hard-drives that are faster than others?

yes there is. RPMs differ(5400RPM, 7200RPM, 10000RPM), as well as seektime and read speed IDE drives have ATA33, ATA66, and ATA100(actually ATA99.99~)
SCSI is generally faster than most IDE drives. Although the newest thing out is SATA(Serial ATA) hard drives, they're very fast.

Also another thing is if you have RAID arrays it speeds up your apparant disk-write speed.

Another factor is buffer size, a larger buffer will tend to write more consistantly and that's proportional~somewhat to speed.

Hmm.

OK. Here's the deal.

With my recording software the more tracks I create when making a song the more % of the hard-drive it takes to relay the info to the soundcard.

I am pretty much at the limit with 22 tracks and if I try more I get sound dropouts. In doing some reading on the topic it means that it cannot relay the info from the harddrive fast enough to the soundcard.

So, how do I increase my hard-drive speed or do I need to get a new hard drive? Is there any way right now to increase my hard drive speed?

Oh, and what are the fastest hard drives out there as far as brands/models?

IS this a good one?
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=65

Are there faster ones? If so what?

The Raptors are uberfast.
I've got 2 of them running in raid.:nice:

1) Are there faster ones?

2) Can I install another HD in my computer so I have 2?

Hmm.

OK. Here's the deal.

With my recording software the more tracks I create when making a song the more % of the hard-drive it takes to relay the info to the soundcard.

I am pretty much at the limit with 22 tracks and if I try more I get sound dropouts. In doing some reading on the topic it means that it cannot relay the info from the harddrive fast enough to the soundcard.

So, how do I increase my hard-drive speed or do I need to get a new hard drive? Is there any way right now to increase my hard drive speed?

Oh, and what are the fastest hard drives out there as far as brands/models?
erm...relaying stuff to hardware like a soundcard is a processor thing...try upping your memory if you're having issues having multiple things going at once. That's odd how it would suggest that, it's prolly because its using alot of virtual memory...hmmm.

A thought: Bill, how often do you clear your temp. files?

2) Can I install another HD in my computer so I have 2?

You can certinaly install another. Personally I have 4 hard drives in my computer. Also make sure you have the correct cable to go with the faster drives, or that will bottle neck somewhat. If you do have more than one hard drive, try and keep your virtual memory swap file on a different drive to your program installs, as that can create a slight bottle neck too (when the computer is trying to both read and write to the swap file, and the files to run the programs at the same time).

hugs

lilnymph

erm...relaying stuff to hardware like a soundcard is a processor thing...try upping your memory if you're having issues having multiple things going at once. That's odd how it would suggest that, it's prolly because its using alot of virtual memory...hmmm.

Im well above the system requirements as far as processor and memory speed.

Basically the soundcard being used for recording is an external soundcard/mixer which is connected via USB 2.0

I usually close everything else running and have an entire PCI USB card solely devoted to this one USB plug.

From what I've been reading in the help sections its just been leading me to believe it's the processor. I could be wrong though.

It's also not like it's a big deal....at least yet. It's only happened a couple times and I was able to fix it by trimming dead air off of some of the tracks.
It happens when there are a bunch of tracks all playing something therefore putting the strain on something... Im starting to get too complicated here.


A thought: Bill, how often do you clear your temp. files?

I try to keep the computer clean. Before starting a new project I run some utilities which completely clean out all teh crap and stuff and also defrag the disc.


You can certinaly install another.

Thanks. I thought so.


However I know nothing about virtual memory and stuff like that.
What exactly is the relevence of virtual memory and should I try adjusting that for my current issue first or will I be getting in over my head?

Processor is likely to be the bottleneck for this problem.

Virtual memory is the computer using part of your hard drive as extra RAM, so that it can keep more things in memory than can physically fit in RAM. This is useful for very memory intensive (read BIG) programs, or doing lots of multitasking. It shouldn't really be that much of an issue in this case however, as you aren't runnign anything else at the same time (unless the program you use is very memory intensive, or you don't have much physical RAM in your machine).

Its not too hard to adjust, as its all down via settings in windows. It's hidden away in the properties you get at when you right click on "my computer" (at least I think it is). its usually ok to just let windows decide how much it needs, all I really do with it is move it off my C: onto another physical hard disk.

hugs

lilnymph

Bill,

get a 7200 rpm hard drive with a seek time of less that 10 milliseconds.
get a processor that is faster that 1 gig.
get a GOOD soundcard.. not some crappy soundblaster.
get at least 512 megs of ram.
If you get all that you should be able to record well over 22 tracks at 44.1k/24bit.
dont bother recording at 48k or 96k

also.. defrag your hard drive every week or so.. recording audio creates large files, and when ya delete them it makes a mess of your hard drive.

it also helps if you optimize your PC for music production.
http://www.tascamgiga.com/pdf/optimizing-xp-and-2k.pdf

I do audio recording as a semi part-time side business thingy.
let me know if you need help.

Jason

I do alot of Video Editing and Ram makes the biggest Difference. Since the Data i have is SO massive i use External Firewire HDD's so i can take them to other editing stations as well. (i dont have a Deck here to Print to tape) Defraging your drive will help considerably, also having a Media Only drive helps so you arent bogging down your drive by having the system, and the scratch files on the same volume. Granted Audio is considerably smaller then 48K DV-Cam video but i would go with a Gig of ram. My system has no issues editing projects in excess of 100Gb with external drives and a decent amount of ram.

Dr.

Bill,

get a 7200 rpm hard drive with a seek time of less that 10 milliseconds.

I think I've got this. I know its a western Digital so its good stuff.

get a processor that is faster that 1 gig.

2.3 Ghz athlon

get a GOOD soundcard.. not some crappy soundblaster.

Here's the deal....
http://www.lexiconpro.com/Omega/index.asp

Thats what I have. That is the soundcard and it runs via USB into my computer.

get at least 512 megs of ram.

Got a gig

If you get all that you should be able to record well over 22 tracks at 44.1k/24bit.
dont bother recording at 48k or 96k

Well, in my latest project Im at 22 and in a few parts where I have many tracks playing something the "processor" meter peaks between 70 and 80 and until I cropped out some dead audio was dropping out.
I will see what adding a couple of tracks of vocals will do.

also.. defrag your hard drive every week or so..

Yes. Will do more regularily.

recording audio creates large files, and when ya delete them it makes a mess of your hard drive.

Gotcha

it also helps if you optimize your PC for music production.
http://www.tascamgiga.com/pdf/optimizing-xp-and-2k.pdf

Thanks.

I do audio recording as a semi part-time side business thingy.
let me know if you need help.

Damn straight. I've been thinking of a list of questions for you. Perhaps I'll organize them and start a new thread or sumthin.

BTW, here is a link to my software.

http://www.protracksrecording.com/





Processor is likely to be the bottleneck for this problem.

Virtual memory is the computer using part of your hard drive as extra RAM, so that it can keep more things in memory than can physically fit in RAM. This is useful for very memory intensive (read BIG) programs, or doing lots of multitasking.

Well, I think the program is pretty intensive when there are 22 separate audio tracks going, right?



Its not too hard to adjust, as its all down via settings in windows. It's hidden away in the properties you get at when you right click on "my computer" (at least I think it is). its usually ok to just let windows decide how much it needs, all I really do with it is move it off my C: onto another physical hard disk.
[/quote]

OK. I found it. Here's the deal.

It says I have 768-1536 MB of Virtual Memory. I don't know if thats bad or good or if I should adjust it and to what should I adjust it to?

I do alot of Video Editing and Ram makes the biggest Difference. Since the Data i have is SO massive i use External Firewire HDD's so i can take them to other editing stations as well. (i dont have a Deck here to Print to tape) Defraging your drive will help considerably, also having a Media Only drive helps so you arent bogging down your drive by having the system, and the scratch files on the same volume. Granted Audio is considerably smaller then 48K DV-Cam video but i would go with a Gig of ram. My system has no issues editing projects in excess of 100Gb with external drives and a decent amount of ram.


Well, I've got over a gig and am well above what the system reqirements are for the mixer/soundcard and recording program so i think Im cool on ram.

PB, ever use ProTools? Its pretty much the industry standard and very easy and versitile to use. I highly reccomend it.

Dr.

PB, ever use ProTools? Its pretty much the industry standard and very easy and versitile to use. I highly reccomend it.

Nope. I'll check it out.

Jason. I think I may have solved my problem or at least am getting there.

I was tinkering around, following the directions from that link.

I opened up my recording program and also made some adjustments.
I adjusted the I/O buffer from 64 to 128 and it took my "hard Disk" meter way down, like from 80 to 50% on some of the parts that had previous caused the dropouts.

I am going to play around with these settings some more but I think that may have solved it for the time being.

I think Im going to get myself a new disk solely for recording though.

Hey Bill,

It looks like the software you are using is based on SONAR. I dont know what sort of liumitations they have put in it to sorta 'cripple it' (they wouldnt be giving away a full functioning version of SONAR i can tell ya that! :) )

But Sonar is a cool application, so I imagine if it is using that as the engine for it is decent.

I would stay well away from pro-tools. It is "sorta" the industry standard, only becuase it was the first thing to come along and it has been around for a while now.
However, the "real" version of pro-tools requires proprietary hardware, and only the free version of pro-tools can be used with other manufacturers haardware.
And the free version aint worth a crap.
And I doubt you can afford the full version of a pro-tools rig, or the headaches that go along with it. At least not if you are just doing it as a hobby.
I sure as hell cant afford it and IM trying to make a business of it.
my buddy bought a pro-tools rig and it cost him like 25 grand. heh.
You can get the "lite" version with some of thier digi boxes, but I dont think it runs any vst or directX plugins.. just RTAS.. thats a pretty big limitation.

If you are interested in higher quality software, I'd look into the full version of Sonar, Cubase SX, or Samplitude Producer (which I use).

Well, I think the program is pretty intensive when there are 22 separate audio tracks going, right?

64 tracks of audio is no uncommon today.

What bit-depth and sample rate are you recording at?

I would recommend you record at 44.1k/24 bit.

getting a hard drive dedicated to audio is a very good idea.
Also.. amke sure you have the chipset drivers installed for your motherboard...
If you are using a via chipset it will have special IDE drivers that will improve throughput for your system.
Bogging down at 22 tracks seems a little odd.
I have a 2.4 gig athlon machine with a gig of ram.. when im running araound 20-24 tracks of audio with NO effects.. just straight audio..
Im utilizing about 13-20% of the cpu.
I have plugin cards that run my plugins, so when im running a full load of plugins and effects on a 20-30 track tune I rarely go above 60% CPU.

Thanks. I went with something relatively inexpensive for now realizing that I will probably have to step up someday but right now I don't need to.

Will be coming with more questions in the future.

PS

Do you have the same kind of settings as I do as far as "dither", "latency", "I/O Buffer".....things like that?

If so, wtf do they all really mean and how do I know the right setting?

As I said, in adjusting the IOBuffer from 64 to 128 really helped but I don't know what I did as far as how did it affect the computer...like what did it do?

yeah, Dithering is the process of adding noise tothe audio when you downsample..
say you sample down from 24 bits to 16 bits for the final CD..
Dithering applies some type of noise to sorta soften the effect of chopping off the extra bits..
at least that is the best way I can explain it. I know it seems like noise is the last thing you want to add.. but there are some 'good' kinds of noise.. and in the last step before dumping the audio to CD.. adding dithering noise when you downsample can be a good thing.

latency is the measure of time it takes for audio to travel from your input, thru your computer, to your output.

I/O buffers are the number of buffers the soundcard will fill up with data before it begins processing.. the lower the number of buffers you have set, the better response and the lower the latency.. but stability is usualy sacrificed, and CPU time is increased.
higher I/O buffers leads to lower CPU utilization, more stability in the audio engine, but increased latency and a more sluggish interface in your audio app.
The trick is to find the right balance between performance and stability.

64 buffers is LOW. real low. its not a wonder your CPU was high and you were getting grop outs.
128 is still pretty low, but if you can make it work solid then go for it.
if you dont use a lot of real time effects (effects on the signal you are recording).. and I dont see why you would really.. I never use them.. then 256-512 buffers is not unreasonable and it would make your system more solid.

But it also depends on what you are monitoring thru. If your soundcard has a special mixer application that will monitor back your audio to you with no latency at all then you can pump your buffers up pretty hugh.. at least 512..probably wouldnt need moire than that.

IF you have an external mixer you are monitoring thru.. same thing..
but if you are forced to monitor thru the audio appliucation then you need to keep your buffers low.

monitoring thru an audio application has always seemeed to be more trouble than it is worth to me so I dont do it.

My buffers ususaly sit between 128 and 512, depending on what I am doing.

I dont think I have ever set the buffers on my card over 512.

oh... and more on latency..

there is latency in everything..

if you are standing 3 feet away from someone talking to you, you are hearing the sound a little over 3 milliseconds after they say it.
if you move 6 feet wawy from your amp while you play, you are hearing a little over 6 ms of latency.

some people say they can notice latency as low as 10 ms, but I cant ususaly.
it's no worse than being 10 feet away from a floor monitor when IM playing out.

just something to keep in mind when setting I/O boffers and latency on your audio app.

like my card.. if I set it to 64 buffers.. the latency is 1.5ms
that is crazy low.
if I set it to 128 buffers it is 3 ms.. still crazy low
256 buffers and im at 6 ms, and 512 buffers sticks me at like 11 millisseconds.

all of these latencies are prefectly workable for me, so setting it to 512 is not an issue.

however, setting it to 2048 or soemthing like that would get sill cuase then im getting into like 30 ms latency and that would be noticible. there would be a pretty audible delay between when I played something and when I heard it.., if I were monitoring thru the audio application that is.


sorry to get so verbose on the subject. Just trying to be thorough.

You can learn a lot from different message boards dedicated to pro audio.
here are a couple I frequent:

www.prorec.com
www.recording.org

Excellent stuff.

Thank you very much.

Back to hard drives for a moment.


What brand(S) do you reccomened?

OK...

I've found these two....Any suggestions on which one to pick?


http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=65

http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/discsales/marketing/detail/0,1081,537,00.html