http://www.thehandstand.org/archive/may2002/index.htm


by Enda Cunningham
The Future, with a fresh look at the teaching of Irish in National Schools.

In the light of all the controversy regarding the teaching of Irish, it is time to decide if indeed our language is a barrier to our progress and prosperity in this modern age.
Irish is one of the three oldest languages in Europe - its roots go back thousands of years. Our island home has guaranteed that it has remained relatively pure and free from outside influence. It remained so until the period of conquest and the Plantations of English settlers in the 16th Century, with the introduction of severe penal law against the language. The Great Famine of 1846-49 resulted in the language being equated with poverty. Churchmen preached in English to Gaelic-speaking congregations; Landlords, Agents, Government Officials, lawyers, teachers, successful traders - all well fed - led the people to believe that Irish was little help to them at home and a positive barrier for the vast numbers of emigrants who sought a new life in other countries.................

Download link for full article, plus a photo of The Jeanie Johnston.

. Our island home has guaranteed that it has remained relatively pure and free from outside influence.

before the plantations, the region of "the pale" (in and around dublin) was a big english speaking region.

the pale stretched towards mid-louth and even furhter north. While i'm unsure of the exact boundaries, it waas a big region from orth louth to wicklow. and the town of Ardee (35 miles away from Dublin) in mid-louth was considered a big out post of the pale. castles in Ardee where used as protecting the pale.

also, Ardee was loyal to king billy around the time of the battle of boyne. they gave him a hero's welcome as he entered the town on his way to drogheda and the boyne river.

though this can also be put down to the fact that king james and his henchmen plundered the (great) town of Ardee aswell as dundalk, which is furhter north

Q: What do you call Irish Ebonics?

A: Ironics?:D

IFF - I think The Pale was The Ulster Plantation.

Originally posted by IFF .

before the plantations, the region of "the pale" (in and around dublin) was a big english speaking region.

Would this be the origin of the saying "It's beyond the pale,"? If so, what does that imply about what ever is refered to that way?

Originally posted by Criminal
Q: What do you call Irish Ebonics?

A: Ironics?:D


roflmao... oh, you're good~

;)

Originally posted by Scooty


Would this be the origin of the saying "It's beyond the pale,"? If so, what does that imply about what ever is refered to that way?

Yes.
The Pale was the colonial enclave of the greater Dublin region inhabited, for the most part, by the Old English (i.e. Catholic English), who were also referred to as the Palesmen.
It was essentially a delimited region to which Engish control had contracted from the 12th century.
Pro-English and loyal to the crown, from the time of Henry VIII until the usurpation of their position by the New English (Protestant English who gained dominance from the late 16th to the mid 17th century), the urban Palesmen were ethnocentrically English and self-assured of their cultural and moral superiority over the indigenous population.
Beyond the bounds of the Pale lay Gaelic Ireland, ruled over either by Irish military warlords or Hiberno-Normans (who weren't all that different by that stage). The Palesmen, who saw themselves as spearheading a civilizing mission of the native Irish, conceived of the region beyond the Pale as lawless, unruly, savage and barbaric, a view which was reinforced due to the not infrequent raids that they endured at the hands of the natives.
Hence, beyond the Pale refers to that which is outside of civilized society: the savage; the barbaric etc.

Excellent, comprehensive answer. Thanks!

Also mainland Britain had been enduring raids from Ireland for centuries, where costal villages would be attacked and destroyed, and slaves taken. This is how St Patrick originally ended up in Ireland (if I remember correctly he was actually Welsh)

hugs

lilnymph

Here's a ditty the nun's taught us when I attended St. Patricks Catholic Elementary School, to be sung in honor of St.Patricks Day every year:

The Wearin' of the Green

Oh, Paddy dear,
And did you hear
The news that's goin' round?
The shamrock is forbid by law to
Grow on Irish ground.

St. Patrick's day, no more to keep.
His color can't be seen.
For there's a bloody law agin
The wearin' of the green.

I met with napper Tandy
And he tuk me by the hand,
And he says "How's poor old Ireland?"
And "How does she stand?"

"She's the most distressful country
That e're you have seen.
They're hangin' men and women there,
For wearin' of the green."

The Declaration of Independence was written in the fine hand of Irish born
Charles Thompson.

First read to the people in the fine brogue of John Nixon, another Irish
born citizen.

It was printed by John Dunlap, born in Ireland.

It bears the signatures of 7 Irishmen; Charles Carroll MD, Thomas Lynch SC,
Thomas McKean DE, Robert Paine MA, George Read DE, James Smith PA, George
Taylor, also of PA, and Mathew Thornton NH.

The Great Seal of the USA was designed by Charles Thompson of Co. Derry who
was Secretary of The Continental Congress during it's entire existence.

The White House was designed by James Hoban who emigrated from Co. Kilkenny
in 1785. He supervirsed its completion, and following its destruction by
the British in 1814, Hoban directed its reconstruction.

Thereafter, The State and War Offices, begun in 1818, were designed by him,
and he assisted in the design and construction of the U.S Capital. Hoban
also served as a member of The Washington City Council from its
incorporation in 1812 until his death in 1831.

The first armed attack against the British was the capture of arms and
ammunition at Portsmouth NH, 4 months before the Battle of Lexington. The
attack was led by John Sullivan (afterwards Major General), a son of Owen
Sullivan of Co. Limerick.
The first decicive victory for our side was won at Moore's Creek Bridge
Wilmington NC on 12 Feb. 1776, when 1,500 Tories surrendered to the troops
under the command of Col. (Later to become General) James Moore, a
descendant of Roger O'Moore, a leader of the Irish Rebellion of 1641.
The first General Officer to die was Gen. Richard Montgomery, who fell while
leading the attack on Quebec Dec. 31 1775. He was born in Co. Donegal.
Washintons army had 17 Irish Generals.

The First Commodore of the US Navy was John Barry, of Co. Wexford. I had the
honor and privilege of being quartered in Barry Hall, the last 2 years of my
stay at the USMMA, Kings Point.

Slante Gael!

Up The Republic!

Good thread~


:cool:

Here's another little tid-bit of Irish trivia:

During the Young Irish "disorder", 9 Irishmen were convicted of treason, and sentenced to death.
They were John Mitchell, Morris Lyene, Patrick Donahue, Thomas McGee, Charles Duffy, Thomas
Meagher, Richard O'Gorman, Terrance McManus, and Michael Ireland.
Pressure from the USA caused Queen Victoria to relent on the death sentence, and they were
sentenced to "Transportation" and banishment to Australia.

In 1874, word reached Queen Victoria that Sir Patrick Duffy Patrick Duffy who had been elected
Prime Minister of Australia was the same man she deported 25 years earlier. On the Queens
demand, the records of the rest of the deported men were revealed, and this is what was uncovered:


Thomas Francis Meagher, Gov. of Montana.

Terrance McManus, Brigadier General, US Army.

Patrick Donohue, Brigadier General US Army.

Richard O'Gorman, Gov. General of Newfoundland.

Morris Lyene, Attorney General of Australia, who was succeeded by
Michael Ireland.

Thomas D'Arcy McGee, MP Montreal, Minister of Agriculture, and President
of Council, Dominion

of Canada.

John Mitchell, prominent NY Politician. He was the father of John Purroy
Mitchell, Gov. of NY
1917

God Bless All Here.

:nice:

Originally posted by Ed Toner
The White House was designed by James Hoban who emigrated from Co. Kilkenny
in 1785. He supervirsed its completion, and following its destruction by
the British in 1814, Hoban directed its reconstruction.


and iut was based on the design of Leinster House in Dublin

The Scotch-Irish built America while snooty Englishmen sipped their tea in drawing rooms.

Originally posted by Ed Toner

In 1874, word reached Queen Victoria that Sir Patrick Duffy Patrick Duffy who had been elected
Prime Minister of Australia was the same man she deported 25 years earlier. On the Queens
demand, the records of the rest of the deported men were revealed, and this is what was uncovered
.................

Morris Lyene, Attorney General of Australia, who was succeeded by
Michael Ireland.



This is wrong. There was no prime minister or attorney-general of Australia until 1901. Prior to that date they were separate colonies.

He's got a point. there ;) And why, in the 19th Century, would Great Britain listen to what the USA wanted? Great Britain was the most powerful nation in the world, and Had finished some Wars involving the USA on the other side about 50 so years before, around the turn of the century. Seems strange they would agree to this.

Oh, and you think the Queen might have noticed him when she knighted him, if he was now a Sir ;)

Hugs

lilnymph

Chris - News to me. Perhaps it is trye.

I sent the following to the AG office in Canberra:

Jenny,

Could you help me wih a bit of research? I'm trying to find the function of MORRIS LYENE in the Austrailan Government.

Thanking you in advance,

Edward Toner LCDR USN,
Brick NJ

732-840-4203
captained@comcast.net

http://moregleny.com/captainedcartoon.gif

Hmmm, the only Sir Patrick Duffy I found was a British M.P. and former president of NATO.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05187a.htm

This looks like the most likely suspect, Sir Charles Gavan Duffy, who was elected the Premier of Victoria. He was involved in the young Irelanders but was not successfully prosecuted and immigrated of his own free will.

I dont want to cast more doubt on this this, but I just did a search for Morris Lyene, and the first page I got was

http://www.dysan.net/Weird/show.php?num=550

and the only references I can find seemed to be this very article. I would guess its made up to make Irish look good, and the english look stupid.

hugs

lilnymph

Originally posted by lilnymph
to make Irish look good


Irish don't need help with that, they look good anyway. ;) :drool:

Originally posted by SpabSFW


Irish don't need help with that, they look good anyway. ;) :drool:

You sound like one of my friends, he loves Irish guys (can't see it myself ;) but have to admit, its a sexy accent :D)

hugs

lilnymph

Originally posted by lilnymph


You sound like one of my friends, he loves Irish guys (can't see it myself ;) but have to admit, its a sexy accent :D)

hugs

lilnymph


Soundz like your friend has remarkably good taste~ :D

Yes, let's all reflect upon and celebrate Irish history. :eek3:

http://www.antiqueprints.com/Images/portraits/D1308.JPG

Cromwell was just misunderstood

http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm
POBLACHT NA H EIREANN
___________________________
THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT
OF THE
IRISH REPUBLIC
TO THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND

IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom.

Having organised and trained her manhood through her secret revolutionary organisation, the Irish Republican Brotherhood, and through her open military organisations, the Irish Volunteers and the Irish Citizen Army, having patiently perfected her discipline, having resolutely waited for the right moment to reveal itself, she now seizes that moment, and, supported by her exiled children in America and by gallant allies in Europe, but relying in the first on her own strength, she strikes in full confidence of victory.

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty; six times during the last three hundred years they have asserted it to arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom, of its welfare, and of its exaltation among the nations.

The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

Until our arms have brought the opportune moment for the establishment of a permanent National, representative of the whole people of Ireland and elected by the suffrages of all her men and women, the Provisional Government, hereby constituted, will administer the civil and military affairs of the Republic in trust for the people.

We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God. Whose blessing we invoke upon our arms, and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, in humanity, or rapine. In this supreme hour the Irish nation must, by its valour and discipline and by the readiness of its children to sacrifice themselves for the common good, prove itself worthy of the august destiny to which it is called.

Signed on Behalf of the Provisional Government.

Thomas J. Clarke,
Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh,
P. H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt,
James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett


The seven signatories of the Irish Proclamation (from left):

Padraig Pearse, James Connolly, Thomas Clarke, Thomas MacDonagh, Sean MacDermott, Joseph Plunkett & Eamonn Ceannt
All of the above men were executed by the British Government for their efforts in trying to secure a free Ireland!

DAMN THEM!

Originally posted by suicidalmarchingband
Cromwell was just misunderstood
Cromwell began as a liberator and ended up a dictator. He led the Parlementary armies to victory over the King and chopped off King Charles's head. But then he took all the power for himself and suppressed all discontent. His military campaign in Ireland was marked by massacres and great cruelty. What I found most troubling was that the Levelers and the Diggers, who were the first Socialists and Anarchists were surpressed. Cromwells excesses led to a long standing distaste for Democracy in England. This set the democratic movement back many years.

This is true Criminal. Part of the problem, from an Irish (and indeed Scottish) perspective was that English political identity was caught up with a kind of near apocalyptic Protestant messianism at the time - kinda stemmed from the 30 years war in Europe where Protestantism seemed to be on the edge of being wiped out. In that context, they really didn't look that well upon Catholics.

Having said the Diggers and Levellers were great and there's a real strong history of English radicalism with strong beliefs in political and social equality right down to the end of the nineteenth century.