What are some other ways to produce fuels for automobiles?

Hydrogen? solar? Hybrid? Natural gas?

Where do you see the future going? Why hasn't anything taken off yet?

Originally posted by Manu
What are some other ways to produce fuels for automobiles?

Hydrogen? solar? Hybrid? Natural gas?

Where do you see the future going? Why hasn't anything taken off yet?

Probably the best alternative fuel for automobiles is fuel cells.
It converts Hydrogen and oxygen into water. The reaction creates heat and electricity that will be able to power cars, planes, trains and homes.

The only bi-product of fuel cells is water.Click here to see how fuel cells work (http://science.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell1.htm)

Horse ...and buggy.

Don't forget about Electric Cars.
I had a chance to work on them when I was on prohbation.
I logged in many hours of community service driving these things around and changing batteries.
I can see how these might work in Europe because they are generally smaller than a normal car and lack the power.
They are very quiet.

How true are the rumors that alternative fuel source engines have been made and subsequently bought by carmakers/oil companies and the patents burried?

Originally posted by igofast
How true are the rumors that alternative fuel source engines have been made and subsequently bought by carmakers/oil companies and the patents burried?

Chrysler built an alcohol powered turbine car back in the 60's. I think only 50 were made...

Originally posted by Manu
Where do you see the future going? Why hasn't anything taken off yet?

I read an article the other day that the MINI (30 MPG) and Toyota Prius (60 MPG) are on the dealers' lots for only something like 3 days. Indicative by the tremendous demand for these fuel efficient vehicles is that there are some intelligent American consumers amongst the rabble.

I will consider an alternative fuel car when they can offer the same power and same range as my current gasoline engine at a comparable price.

There are even vehicles outfitted to run off spent frying oil from fast food joints. Cars have been built to run off of methane, solar power, and even carrots. I think it's really a matter of supply and demand, though. Car manufacturers know that big, heavy, gas guzzling SUV's are the hot item right now. So, to meet government standards, they'll produce one fuel efficient vehicle on their line, but they won't really promote it. At the end of the year, hardly any sold and they blame it on people not wanting the product. If people aren't buying the product, the price remains high.

If we could spark interest in the general population, prices would go down and fuel efficient cars would become economical. Did you know that the original Ford line (model A, model T) got the same gas mileage as most cars get now? We've had over 100 years of progress in the auto industry, but somehow gas mileage hasn't improved. (by the way, the figure is about 22 mpg)

The average American has the whole 'bigger is better' philosophy. We do something like 80% of all trips alone in the car, but most cars are four seaters. That's seats, metal, safety gear, etc. that we're carrying around for nothing. People will buy a seven seater minivan to fit themselves and their one child. Do we really NEED that much extra space? Do people that buy SUV's actually use them for offroading? Most have never even left the pavement.

Find a way to change the country's attitude towards smaller, more efficient cars, and you'll find that energy efficient cars will be cheaper and a LOT more available.

Kyle-

A hybrid honda civic costs under 20K I believe and offers the same near performance/comfort as a typical honda.

Great points all. I don't really see (for the near future) any single thing taking off. But I'd like to see further hybridization.

I mean, imagine a car which was hybrid, but used hydrogen fuel cell technology, current 'hybrid' technology to get extra power from 'wasted' energy, solar, etc etc.

By making a multitiered hybrid vehicle, could it be possible to remove 'gas' from the equation entirely?

Rizzo-

The main problem people see with hydrogen is how to store it? Liquid it evaporates too much, and needs to be really cold. Gas, it is too compressed/combustable?

I believe that the time will come when it will be a necessity to equip vehicles with alternative fuel capabilities. Electrical cars will be preferred but why not also use corn fuel?

The petrolium companies will of course block all efforts as they have in the past. I think that as long as we have the pupets of the power companies running things (as they are now) then there will be no hope for alternative fuel.

the challenge is in marketing

The Hydrogen Fuel cell is the front runner right now, there was supposed to be one on the '04 model year, but it was canceled because in some of the test phases one of the cell walls was shown to have a tendancy to fail, which could be very bad.

Alchohol would be nice, seeing as it actualy provides more power then ethenol, which is what we use now, and it burn extremely clean.

There are currently two plants in the united states that actualy produce crude oil, from any waste excluding nuclear waste. I saw this on Tech Live, one of the plants is works in conjunction with a food processing plant, that makes prepares turkeys that get sent to Butterball, and the like, the gibblets, and stuff are sent to the plant where it is converted into crude oil, which can then be turned into gas, a few more plants like this, and we'd see the price of gas take a sharp turn downward, seeing as their more they produce thousands of of drums of oil a day.

Originally posted by Manu


Rizzo-

The main problem people see with hydrogen is how to store it? Liquid it evaporates too much, and needs to be really cold. Gas, it is too compressed/combustable?

Im sure down the road, they will solve the storage problem.
I remember reading an article about engines running off of borax. It sounds like a good alternative to fuel cells. Ill try to find it and post the article.

Found it!

For years, visionaries have proposed that the world switch from using hydrocarbons — fossil fuels such as diesel oil, gasoline and coal — to pure hydrogen. It is the most abundant element on earth and when "burned," produces only non-polluting water and heat.
Unfortunately, hydrogen can also explode very easily, making it difficult to use in cars. Storage tanks for hydrogen-powered cars would have to be sturdy and heavy enough to prevent Hindenberg-like explosions during collisions.

But Millennium Cell Inc., a privately held company in Eatontown, N.J., has developed a unique solution to mitigate the dangers of hydrogen fuel.

The company's Hydrogen on Demand fuel technology is based on a compound of sodium borohydride. The chemical — derived from borax, an ingredient found in most laundry detergents — is dissolved in water to produce a stable and non-flammable liquid.

When the liquid is combined with Millennium Cell's patented catalyst, an instant chemical reaction produces liquid borax and pure hydrogen gas. The hydrogen can then be immediately burned in an engine or used in a fuel cell which converts the gas directly into electricity and water.



http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge011214.html

Originally posted by Manu
What are some other ways to produce fuels for automobiles?

Hydrogen? solar? Hybrid? Natural gas?

Where do you see the future going? Why hasn't anything taken off yet?

I see us creating better efficiency for gas powered cars without getting rid of the extra safety. We have only just realized how much oil is on the planet. After we figure out how to extract/recycle it from plastics (technology already underway) I think that is the way it will go.

Originally posted by ÆSiR
Don't forget about Electric Cars.
I had a chance to work on them when I was on prohbation.
I logged in many hours of community service driving these things around and changing batteries.
I can see how these might work in Europe because they are generally smaller than a normal car and lack the power.
They are very quiet.

Unfortunately there is an energy/electricity crisis going on in the states now. If everyone started pluging in electric cars to charge them, the grid would blow. Its amazing that more power outages havn't occured already. We need to revamp our power grid and power production before this becomes a viable option.

Originally posted by TheGreatMonkey
The Hydrogen Fuel cell is the front runner right now, there was supposed to be one on the '04 model year, but it was canceled because in some of the test phases one of the cell walls was shown to have a tendancy to fail, which could be very bad.

Alchohol would be nice, seeing as it actualy provides more power then ethenol, which is what we use now, and it burn extremely clean.

There are currently two plants in the united states that actualy produce crude oil, from any waste excluding nuclear waste. I saw this on Tech Live, one of the plants is works in conjunction with a food processing plant, that makes prepares turkeys that get sent to Butterball, and the like, the gibblets, and stuff are sent to the plant where it is converted into crude oil, which can then be turned into gas, a few more plants like this, and we'd see the price of gas take a sharp turn downward, seeing as their more they produce thousands of of drums of oil a day.

The main problem is the amount of energy that is needed to produce the hydrogen to begin with. It takes more energy from natural gas or other burn methods to produce the hydrogen at this point and produces more waste than the energy output from the hydrogen to power the car.

In other words right now it would be robbing pete to pay paul. Its a great idea and I'm sure it has a future, but it is still distant. IMHO

Alternative fuels:

1. Hydrogen.

a. Expensive to produce. Costs more in energy than it provides.

b. Difficult, and dangerous to store, transport, and deliver.

c. Contains less energy than gasoline, making refueling much more frequent.

2. Bio derived fuels.

a. There is not enough bio mass on this continent, (NA), to fuel America for more than a single day.

b. This includes bio diesel, alcohol, (ethanol, methanol, etc), bio waste derived 'crude oil', etc.

c. Energy content is considerably lower per gallon than fossil fuels, making refueling more frequent.

3. Electric vehicles.

a. They are not, (as many believe), more efficient, or less polluting than some gasoline driven vehicles.

b. The drain on existing electric grids exceed their capabilities.

c. 75% of vehicle weight is in batteries. You 'spend' energy hauling around a ton and a half of lead acid batteries.

d. Batteries are relatively short lived, and replacement of those batteries can exceed $20,000 per vehicle.

4. Solar vehicles.

a. Not enough energy per square foot of surface area to make a viable alternative to existing technologies.


I miss anything?

The electric automobile is officially dead. Hybrids are just so much more feasible in today's society.

Originally posted by igofast
How true are the rumors that alternative fuel source engines have been made and subsequently bought by carmakers/oil companies and the patents burried?
I would venture a guess that there's more truth than fiction there, although I bet it starts and ends at the patent stage.

Same power as a typical Honda... Hm....

OK, so the only Honda I've driven was a beat-up old Civic that a friend had in high school.

Oh, and that's another problem I have with small cars. They're so... small. I happen to like a nice heavy GM. Lots of steel in front of you when you're driving.

Biofuels are the future.. Too bad we aren't using Biodiesel here right now, although I did see a Biodiesel powered garbage truck in San Francisco last time I was there to my surprise..

Look what they are doing in Germany http://www.chemicals-technology.com/contractors/construction/lurgi/press1.html


Henry Ford built an ran a car out of Biomass in the 30's http://www.geocities.com/medicalmarijuana2003/fact26.htm

Why hasn't this caught on yet?????

Originally posted by Corporate Avenger


Why hasn't this caught on yet?????

Because even if we devoted every square inch of arable land in this country to producing fuel for auto's, we'd not have enough to run our cars for a single day. Next question?

Originally posted by DngrMse


Because even if we devoted every square inch of arable land in this country to producing fuel for auto's, we'd not have enough to run our cars for a single day. Next question?


Where do you get this from??

How are they doing it in Germany then???

I did some research on this company:

www.grassoline.com

For my boss. He was looking at alternative fuel for his HUMMER. LOL.

Originally posted by Corporate Avenger



Where do you get this from??

How are they doing it in Germany then???

I think this has been discussed before. Germany might be doing it, but they will never replace more than a fraction of fossil fuels with bio derived fuels. The numbers just don't add up. Of course these fuels can replace a limited amount of fossil fuels, in limited areas, as I've mentioned before. We can do the same in this country....just don't expect it to be the answer to fossil fuels.