I just an excellent article about the history of Catholicism and Liberalism in the U.S. .

All Liberals have not always agreed on everything,but they have been pretty untied in hostility towrd the Roman Catholic Church.

Some of the hostility is justified,all the countires that adopted facsim were Catholic countires.

Pope Pius XII did nothing to help Jews being exterminated, hate-mongers like Father Couglin and Joe Mc Carthy were Catholic and these are only a few examples,plus the Church in Rome was just as hostile to liberalism as well.

However,the fact remains that some of the greatest victories Liberalism has had came in large part with Catholic help.

There were many U.S. Catholics in the union movement,Monsignor John A. Ryan spoke for social justice ,Dorthy Day kept alive a tradition of pacfism in the Catholic church and many 60's leftists were Catholic ,including the Berrigan brothers [both preists] and Tom Hayden.

I know of one person who grew up Catholic in the 60's who said that during the civil rights movement a priest and several nuns in thier parish [not in the South by the way] would openly use the "n" word and make no bones about their opostion to the civil rights movement.

However,there were even more preists and nuns who marched for cvil rights and wnet South and worked for voter registration and in the freedom schools.

As the article points out ,both Catholics and Protestandts are Christians,yet most non-fundementalist Protestandts found they had more in common with Jews than they did with Catholics.

Even today,Catholics and Liberals are sometimes allies,seldom friends.

The biggest gap today betwen Catholics and Liberals is on the issue of legal abortion.

Yet,outside of the issue [and it is a big issue] it is Catholics who are most opposed to the death penalty [most notably Sister Helen Prejean].

It was the Pope himself who called the Iraq war " A sin against humanity" and it should be noted that the conservatives current favorte whipping boy is a devout Catholic [namely Michael Moore].

Anyway,here's the article www.prospect.org/print/V11/6/wolfe-a.html

The Nazis were environmentalists.

Originally posted by Truth Teller
I just an excellent article about the history of Catholicism and Liberalism in the U.S. .

All Liberals have not always agreed on everything,but they have been pretty untied in hostility towrd the Roman Catholic Church.

Some of the hostility is justified,all the countires that adopted facsim were Catholic countires.

Pope Pius XII did nothing to help Jews being exterminated, hate-mongers like Father Couglin and Joe Mc Carthy were Catholic and these are only a few examples,plus the Church in Rome was just as hostile to liberalism as well.

I would greatly disagree with you here. The Catholic church was very much opposed to the Nazi regeim.

See the link below:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/06-19-2000/vo16no13_catholic.htm

In fact Pope Pius XII issued a statement entitled "With Burning Sorrow"


Please read:

In 1937, while still serving as Vatican secretary of state, Eugenio Pacelli prepared, for Pope Pius XI, the final draft of the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (With Burning Concern), in which Nazism was condemned as incompatible with Christianity. The document was smuggled into Germany and read from the pulpit of every Catholic church on March 21, 1937. Mit brennender Sorge unmasked the hypocrisy of the Nazi regime by speaking of the "deformation of the state" through which the rights of man are violated. It unequivocally stated:

Whoever exalts the race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community … above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, and deifies, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God... is a false prophet in whom the words of Scripture find terrible application: "He that dwelleth in Heaven shall laugh at them."

After the encyclical was read, the Nazi regime increased its restrictive policies in direct violation of the terms of the 1933 Concordat insuring Catholic civil rights. In Munich alone, suppression of Catholic schools resulted in a drop in enrollment from 65 percent in 1933 to 3 percent in 1937. Anti-Catholic propaganda was distributed; Catholic presses were seized; priests were forbidden to speak in public; and religious ceremonies were restricted. Nazi propagandists, looking for Hitler Youth recruits, targeted Catholic youth organizations. The de-Christianization of schools provided fertile ground for Hitler Youth activities. Pacelli objected to these abuses, eventually sending 89 official documents of protest.

In 1939, after he was elected pope, Pius XII continued to speak out against abuses by the state. His initial encyclical letter, Summi Pontificatus (Darkness Over the Earth), dated October 20, 1939, is a repudiation of the totalitarian "isms" — Nazism, Fascism, and Communism. The first paragraph of a section entitled State-Worship and International Confidence laid the foundation for opposition against abusive government activity:

As for the church being opposed to abortion, it stands to reason that, as the position of Catholics is that life begins at conception, that abortion is an act of desecration of human life.

Whoever exalts the race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community … above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, and deifies, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God... is a false prophet in whom the words of Scripture find terrible application: "He that dwelleth in Heaven shall laugh at them."

Our friendly pontiff seems to be forgetting this little passage:

Romans 13

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.

7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor

Don't you just love hypocrites?

Crim,

What did you think about the article?


I would like to discuss the whole issue of liberalism and Catholocism rather than get bogged down in two parts of it.

Have you read "Hitler's Pope"?

I think it's a very good book written by a devout Catholic who the Vatican gave full access to Pius XII's papers [and they now regret they did].

Pius did speak out in general terms agaisnt the Nazis,but he did not address that issues of anti-Semtism,one might ponder that as the leader of the biggest faith in the world he should have.

I might add,the same goes for FDR [to name only one] but that does not get Pius off the hook,and it is only one example of why many liberals are suspicious of the Catholic Church [anbd I'm not saying that is a good thing by the way,but it would be denial to pretend this distrust is not there and hasn't been for decades].

Please read the book,I think it is fair and well-researched.

As to abortion: that is probably the reason we have Republicans in House,Senate and White House.

One local political activist [Democrat,very liberal/left ] told me that many Catholics who would otherwise vote Democrat are voting Republican because they believe that aborton is murder,even though they disagree with the Republicans on everythig else and would vote Democrats if Liberals weren't so absolutist on this one issue.

I don't mean to make anyone defensive [least of all you Crim],I just think it's a great article and it is interseting that for all the things they have in common,Liberals and Catholics are not close.

Originally posted by Truth Teller
Crim,

What did you think about the article?


I would like to discuss the whole issue of liberalism and Catholocism rather than get bogged down in two parts of it.

Have you read "Hitler's Pope"?

I think it's a very good book written by a devout Catholic who the Vatican gave full access to Pius XII's papers [and they now regret they did].

Pius did speak out in general terms agaisnt the Nazis,but he did not address that issues of anti-Semtism,one might ponder that as the leader of the biggest faith in the world he should have.

I might add,the same goes for FDR [to name only one] but that does not get Pius off the hook,and it is only one example of why many liberals are suspicious of the Catholic Church [anbd I'm not saying that is a good thing by the way,but it would be denial to pretend this distrust is not there and hasn't been for decades].

Please read the book,I think it is fair and well-researched.
I did not but its on my long list of books to read. I did read exerpts from it. Perhaps you are right. I just happen to know that the pope was not exactly in love with Hitler.


Originally posted by Truth Teller
As to abortion: that is probably the reason we have Republicans in House,Senate and White House.

One local political activist [Democrat,very liberal/left ] told me that many Catholics who would otherwise vote Democrat are voting Republican because they believe that aborton is murder,even though they disagree with the Republicans on everythig else and would vote Democrats if Liberals weren't so absolutist on this one issue.

I don't mean to make anyone defensive [least of all you Crim],I just think it's a great article and it is interseting that for all the things they have in common,Liberals and Catholics are not close. As far as abortion goes, I can honestly say I am pro life. But I would also say that, unlike other Catholics I am not a single issue voter. Furthermore I am beginning to doubt that you can prevent abortions from happening just by passing a law against it. I do think that if you really are serious about stopping abortion than you need to arm young people with fact. You need to recognize that there will always be a certain segment of young people who will have sex no matter what you tell them. For these people contraception needs to be made available.

Furthermore, if abortion is illegal does this mean that we will send people to prison who have abortions? It is ridiculous to me that we will fill our already overcrowded prisons with women whose only crime was gettin pregnent and wanting abortion.

I am really opposed to Roe V Wade, not because it allows abortion but because the logic behind the ruling is sloppy. You cannot say that something must be legal just because its a matter of choice. I cannot choose to commit a crime just because I feel its moral. Even if its something like buying drugs (which I do feel should be legalized.)

Rather if we are to legalize abortion, then why not simply pass a law stating that abortion should be legal. But using the supreme court to pass this makes no sense.

Is anyone familiar with Opus Dei?

Originally posted by themistocles
Is anyone familiar with Opus Dei?

Enlighten us.

Originally posted by Criminal

I would greatly disagree with you here. The Catholic church was very much opposed to the Nazi regeim.


but the catholic church in ireland when it came to the Spanish Civil War proclaimed that any body who went and fought against Franco were wrong and that people who fought with Franco's forces were on the side of God. While i do realise there is a small difference between nazism and fascism, this should still be stated

on the basis of this topic, i've actu\ally always found it weird that the 2 Nationalist parties in Northern ireland are more liberal than the two Unionist parties though the relevant churches in my opinion are the opposite to these with the roman catholic chruch being more conservatiuve in my opinon than the protestant churches

Originally posted by IFF


but the catholic church in ireland when it came to the Spanish Civil War proclaimed that any body who went and fought against Franco were wrong and that people who fought with Franco's forces were on the side of God. While i do realise there is a small difference between nazism and fascism, this should still be stated



Agreed,and as the article sates,this is a part of why many liberals have not historically trusted the Catholic Church.


on the basis of this topic, i've actu\ally always found it weird that the 2 Nationalist parties in Northern ireland are more liberal than the two Unionist parties though the relevant churches in my opinion are the opposite to these with the roman catholic chruch being more conservatiuve in my opinon than the protestant churches

Good point.

In Catholic bars in NI they patrons would sing "The Patriot's Game",in Protestandt bars the patrons would sing "Dixie".

Originally posted by IFF


but the catholic church in ireland when it came to the Spanish Civil War proclaimed that any body who went and fought against Franco were wrong and that people who fought with Franco's forces were on the side of God. While i do realise there is a small difference between nazism and fascism, this should still be stated

on the basis of this topic, i've actu\ally always found it weird that the 2 Nationalist parties in Northern ireland are more liberal than the two Unionist parties though the relevant churches in my opinion are the opposite to these with the roman catholic chruch being more conservatiuve in my opinon than the protestant churches
I believe that Irish Catholicism is a bit different than Catholicism elsewhere. If you study your history you will note that the Church in Ireland had supported the peasants during the era when the British virtually enslaved the entire Catholic population. During the Fenian era, a war of terror was waged against the Protestant absentee lords.

It seems that the Catholic Church today is strongest in countries where it faced the greatest persecution. In Poland, the Church promoted the people's sense of nationhood in the era when the nation was occupied by Orthodox Russians and Protestant Germans. Later, the Church became a focal point of resistance to communism.

Originally posted by themistocles
Is anyone familiar with Opus Dei?
Vaigly.

I believe it was a lay order in Spain which dominated the education in the Universities during the Franco era. It was known for its secretive rituals which made many believe it to be similar to the Freemasons. Spanish dubbed them "White Freemasons."

Originally posted by Criminal

I believe that Irish Catholicism is a bit different than Catholicism elsewhere. If you study your history you will note that the Church in Ireland had supported the peasants during the era when the British virtually enslaved the entire Catholic population.

absolutely right there, under british rule, it wasn't only the peasants that was oppressed but also the catholic church was oppressed by them under i think the penal laws. There were laws which also stated that the Irish population actually had to attend atleast 1 Protestant mass a month and if people were caught having a catholic mass, they would be punished fully

Originally posted by Criminal

I believe that Irish Catholicism is a bit different than Catholicism elsewhere. If you study your history you will note that the Church in Ireland had supported the peasants during the era when the British virtually enslaved the entire Catholic population. During the Fenian era, a war of terror was waged against the Protestant absentee lords.


Agreed.

In fact Catholocism in a way differs from country to country,for that matter, it differs in many parts of the U.S. .


It seems that the Catholic Church today is strongest in countries where it faced the greatest persecution. In Poland, the Church promoted the people's sense of nationhood in the era when the nation was occupied by Orthodox Russians and Protestant Germans. Later, the Church became a focal point of resistance to communism.

Excellent points.

I posted the article because I really don't understand why so many on the left have been and still are hostile to the faith per se.

I can understand being being hostile to Pat Buchanan but Michael Moore is every bit as devout a Catholic as Buchanan is [ he even went to Mass hours before his Oscar speech balsting Bush and the war] and Moore is a cool guy.

So I while I disagree with the faith [for myself], I do respect it.

And while I can understand hostility to the more conservative,repressive elements of the faith[ I for one am hostile to fundementalist Protesdantism and Orthodox Judaism,but I'm not hostile to liberal forms of Christianty or Judasim] the fact is Catholics and liberals/leftists/progessives have more in common than most walks of life do and we need each other on the things we agree on.

The division,helps the right.