I have often heard visitors from Europe comment on US culture and say how much religion affects American Society. This strikes many as being ironic because the United States has never had a state religion, unlike a great many of the nations of Europe. They will use as an example, the fact that so many american families continue to go to church or that liquor is not sold on Sunday in many places.

I have investigated this matter some time ago and came up with some ideas on this. America, though a secular nation, has always been a religious one. The earliest influences were Protestant. It was the British settlers who first brought their faith to this continent when there were 13 colonies. Many of these colonists left their homelands because of religious persecution, or perhaps more properly, so they could have their own established faith in the new world.

The Southern colonies, beginning with Virginia were founded for economic rather than religious reasons, but none the less, they chose the Church of England, or Episcopalian church as their established religion.

In New England, Calvenistic dissenters established their church as the only tolerated religion. Interestingly enough, they were relentless at persecuting other faiths such as Baptists and Quakers.

In the middle colonies such as New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Delaware, the first experiments with religious tolerance were attempted. The reason for this was one of practicality. New York was founded by Dutch, but was conquered by the British who, while wishing to retain their own religion did not wish to alienate their dutch subjects. Similar arrangements were necessary with the Swedes of Delaware. In Pennsylvania, the Quakers knew that they were too small in number to only permit their own faith, and furthermore their creed stressed peace and tolerance.

When the Revolution overthrew British Rule, it became necessary to establish a national government which could be accepted by all americans regardless of their faith. This is why the Bill of Rights specifically forbade an established religion.

While it is indeed ironic that in a nation like Sweden, which has an established church (e.g. the Lutheren Church), a much lower percentage of the nations population attends church or identifies with any religion then in the United States, it can be explained in yet another way.

In the United States, unlike Europe, there are few things which are very old. Most US cities date from the 19th Century. Most of the construction in these cities happened in the 20th. The United States is a country of Automobiles and fast food. It is little wonder that many americans seek to have a sense of tradition in their lives. This may be the reason why religion continues to be popular in the US.

What is an interesting thought...

Many of the newer immigrants (my parents for example) hold a strong traditional/cultural heritage with where they are 'from.' (And I do to a large extent) for a country that is founded on a myriad of other cultures you'd think perhaps we'd move AWAY from religion as a cultural thing and leave it as a spiritual thing. (which is the way I see things happening nowadays...)

I'd be interested to see your thoughts on this Criminal...

Originally posted by Criminal
When the Revolution overthrew British Rule, it became necessary to establish a national government which could be accepted by all americans regardless of their faith. This is why the Bill of Rights specifically forbade an established religion.


Notice also that in Washington's Farewell Address he wrote, "With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles."

I don't understand why "blue laws" (written on blue paper that prohibit certain activity of the Sunday Sabbath) still exist in practice. But it is interesting to look at New Haven to see the legacy of the Puritan's town square which symbolizes the unity of the cummunity. Puritanism left written records of the thoughts and actions and also in many ways freed the new Americans from British rule by creating the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, the first written constitution that set up a government with allegience to God, not Britain. Most educational programs were modeled on patterns established during the Puritan days.

While there were Protestants, there were lots of Catholics trying to Christianize the Indians. They were so motivated, they did it even if it killed them and the Indians. ;)

Originally posted by Criminal
I have often heard visitors from Europe comment on US culture and say how much religion affects American Society. This strikes many as being ironic because the United States has never had a state religion, unlike a great many of the nations of Europe. They will use as an example, the fact that so many american families continue to go to church or that liquor is not sold on Sunday in many places.

I have investigated this matter some time ago and came up with some ideas on this. America, though a secular nation, has always been a religious one. ...

...

...

When the Revolution overthrew British Rule, it became necessary to establish a national government which could be accepted by all americans regardless of their faith. This is why the Bill of Rights specifically forbade an established religion.

....

In the United States, unlike Europe, there are few things which are very old. Most US cities date from the 19th Century. Most of the construction in these cities happened in the 20th. The United States is a country of Automobiles and fast food. It is little wonder that many americans seek to have a sense of tradition in their lives. This may be the reason why religion continues to be popular in the US.

Or it could be because Judeo-Christian morals and ethics as expounded by reading the new testament continue to be recognized as one of the major reasons the US today is the only remaining superpower. AND that a large majority are 'believers'.

IMO, the more casual religion becomes (less demanding, more accepting) the better off the people are. Taking it so serious that you would kill someone who disagrees, or at the very least hating or lowering the value of someone from a different faith, is a step too far.

I agree that our religious history has shaped our country for both better and worse.

Originally posted by ChaoticThoughts
IMO, the more casual religion becomes (less demanding, more accepting) the better off the people are. Taking it so serious that you would kill someone who disagrees, or at the very least hating or lowering the value of someone from a different faith, is a step too far.

I agree that our religious history has shaped our country for both better and worse. I'll agree completely. In my opinion religion should be like your sex life, you only share it with certain people and everyone else is left wondering.;)

That tends to be my philosophy as well. I'm pretty religious in some areas (not as much as I used to be overall:( ) but I don't force my views on people. If they want to discuss, great... Hellfire & brimstone conversion speeches alienate too many though, and a good example works FAR better IMO.

Originally posted by hammegk


Or it could be because Judeo-Christian morals and ethics as expounded by reading the new testament continue to be recognized as one of the major reasons the US today is the only remaining superpower. AND that a large majority are 'believers'.

Or could the push by the juedo-christian extremist groups be cause for the current religious tensions in america?

Why do you think the Judeo-Christian ethics/morals are any better/different than lets say the Hindus? I am sure there are similarities with other religions as well, but as I am familiar with Hinduism I can speak about it.

The morality/ethics of many religions use the same basic principles and teachings...

Perhaps a better qustion is, how has Hindu society flourished for over 6000 years, but after 2000 years the Christian society (in America) is facing a major moral and ethical degredation?

Originally posted by Manu

Why do you think the Judeo-Christian ethics/morals are any better/different than lets say the Hindus? I am sure there are similarities with other religions as well, but as I am familiar with Hinduism I can speak about it.

The morality/ethics of many religions use the same basic principles and teachings...

Perhaps a better qustion is, how has Hindu society flourished for over 6000 years, but after 2000 years the Christian society (in America) is facing a major moral and ethical degredation?

I don't think Judeo/Christian are better than Hinduism per se. I think the New Testament Golden Rule -- treat others as THEY would like YOU to treat them, NOT how YOU would like to be treated -- pretty well says it all for both. Ditto Buddhism. Congrats on the 6000 yrs ... probably about the same if we start with Judaism.

No, I don't think the "major moral and ethical degredation" is because of Christianity, rather a reflection of those who have no use for any moral absolutes(call them 'liberals' shall we), and the fact that most christians are unwilling to effectively fight for their beliefs.

BTW are there some Hindu-Christian conflicts I wasn't aware of? Or Jewish-Hindu either?

Manu, any thoughts on Hindu vs. Judeo-Christian conflicts? :p

Well, I agree to the point that it should be a personal thing, and it shouldnt be pushed on anyone.


Not to sidetrack but I want you all to think about this, really think, and see if you agree.

The Nazis wanted to have a master race and kill off all the others who didnt fit.
Could the same be said for the radical muslims, Bin Ladin types and the Taliban, who want a Master religion and want to kill off all the others?
Look at what they did to Afganistan, the blowing up of the Buddist statues, the insanely strict laws, they kill gays, all over thier idea of the master religion. Look at how they feel about non muslims, even moderate muslims. This is a society based on STRICT religious culture, which in essence are laws of morality and decency.

And this leads to the whole truth of what this (the war) is all about.
It is NOT about our foreign policy as some suggest. It has been said its because we want their oil. Why would they object to us buying their oil? They dont. Many have bought into this lie yet, I have never agreed with this and have never seen any evidence that proves it.
There is nothing wrong with building oil pipelines, building factorys, or building a McDonalds across the world. All those things better their lives. It gives jobs, and enriches them in many ways.
They say they dont want Amercans on their soil.
They dont say they dont want oil wells to sell oil to Americans to, they dont say they dont want refridgerators and these are the types of things that our foreign policy brings to them.

IT is about our SOCIAL GARBAGE that the west is pushing on the rest of the world. Thats what they fear.
How our society has in many ways gone into the toilet and doesnt have any real standards of morality or decency.
The movies, the music, the culture, the way women dress, the homosexuality, the abortion.
Social garbage is a path to virtual suicide as we are now not populating our country with enough replacements.

They understand all of this fully and THIS is why we are hated by them.
And this is why we have the master religion analogy. They dont want our social garbage and will do anything to stop it.

Think about it.

Originally posted by Powerboss
The Nazis wanted to have a master race and kill off all the others who didnt fit.
Could the same be said for the radical muslims, Bin Ladin types and the Taliban, who want a Master religion and want to kill off all the others?
Look at what they did to Afganistan, the blowing up of the Buddist statues, the insanely strict laws, they kill gays, all over thier idea of the master religion. Look at how they feel about non muslims, even moderate muslims. This is a society based on STRICT religious culture, which in essence are laws of morality and decency.

That could be said to be a simularity, but unlike the nazis, I don't think it was their mission to destroy all the other people/religions. Instead I think they hate and fight against other people/religions, but only to please their god, and grow in popularity and gain members. They may be killing others, but not making it their mission of genocide and eliminate all competition...at least not yet.

And this leads to the whole truth of what this (the war) is all about.
It is NOT about our foreign policy as some suggest. It has been said its because we want their oil. Why would they object to us buying their oil? They dont. Many have bought into this lie yet, I have never agreed with this and have never seen any evidence that proves it.

I don't think oil is the primary reason...but while we are out there, we might get our hands on some. We buy oil from our enimies, which in itself is insane. But I am sure there are some business arangements being put in place now to benifit us in the future. It would not surprise me.

There is nothing wrong with building oil pipelines, building factorys, or building a McDonalds across the world. All those things better their lives. It gives jobs, and enriches them in many ways.
They say they dont want Amercans on their soil.
They dont say they dont want oil wells to sell oil to Americans to, they dont say they dont want refridgerators and these are the types of things that our foreign policy brings to them.

Well, america may profit, but I doubt we are making the world a better place with mcdonalds and factories. And I dont think it is the business that they were primarily rejecting, but our military presence.

IT is about our SOCIAL GARBAGE that the west is pushing on the rest of the world. Thats what they fear.
How our society has in many ways gone into the toilet and doesnt have any real standards of morality or decency.
The movies, the music, the culture, the way women dress, the homosexuality, the abortion.
Social garbage is a path to virtual suicide as we are now not populating our country with enough replacements.

They understand all of this fully and THIS is why we are hated by them.
And this is why we have the master religion analogy. They dont want our social garbage and will do anything to stop it.

Think about it.

I can agree with that. A gang that outlaws music and television must not want crap like ours affecting them. But it would not be enough to lead a plane attack, imo. I suggest looking at saddam, and the motives he might have to attack.

Also, we have programs in place to export first hand accounts of US lifestyle -- immoral by the vast majority of recognized religions -- with college and technical-training visas to the 2nd/3rd world brightest & best.

And with apologies beforehand especially to Manu, probably to some extent also with some visa programs. I believe there is a visa (h-1??) that has no intent of the holder to become a US citizen, and rather offers economic benefit by employment to the holder. If that's correct, what is the benefit to the US company offering that job, which basically says no qualified US citizens are available to fill a specific position? Lower wages, productivity, or US tax laws are areas that could provide benefit to the employer.

Again, these highly intelligent individuals often must not like much of what US 'culture' offers, so their first-hand accounts back home only increase the exposure already out there courtesy of multinationals and media.

My $0.02. :confused: