CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- Despite a steadily dropping teen birth rate, the United States still lags behind such Western counterparts as France and Sweden when it comes to reducing teen pregnancies, births and abortions, according to a study released Thursday by the Alan Guttmacher Institute.

The study attributes the other countries' success, in large part, to teaching young people more about birth control and allowing them greater access to it. The study also says the other countries, including Great Britain and Canada, provide more incentives for teens to delay childbearing.

A group that advocates abstinence-only education took issue with the study, saying that when birth control is taught in the classroom it can drive up pregnancy rates.

Institute researchers acknowledged a federal report showing that the birth rate among U.S. teens last year dropped to a record low of 48.7 births for every 1,000 females, ages 15 to 19. That represents a 22 percent overall drop since 1991.

"But we still have a long way to go compared to these other countries," said Jacqueline Darroch, the Guttmacher Institute's vice president for research. The New York-based organization is a private research group that focuses on reproductive health issues.

In France and Sweden, for example, the teen birth rates in 1998 and 1999 hovered around 10 births per thousand or less -- the lowest of all five countries mentioned in the study. This was true even though the percentage of teens who are sexually active is roughly the same -- in the 60 percent range -- in each of the nations, the report said.

Among other things, the study found that U.S. teens use contraceptives, especially hormonal methods such as injections and implants, less often than their foreign counterparts.

Heather Cirmo, spokeswoman for the Washington-based Family Research Council, a group that supports abstinence-only education, said more birth control education is not the way to reduce pregnancies.

"When we've had contraceptive education in the classroom -- in the 1970s, for example -- we've seen pregnancy rates go up," Cirmo said.

Surgeon General David Satcher issued a report in June that urged schools to encourage abstinence but to also teach about birth control. The report was strongly criticized by the Bush administration, which has called for increased federal funding for abstinence-only education.

To do the study, the Guttmacher Institute used research teams in each country to collect comparable data from reproductive health officials, including statistics on birth rates and sexually transmitted disease treatments for teens. The project was funded by the Ford Foundation and the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
www.cnn.com

I don't remember any "health" class in the public schools I attended discussing the couple of days a month that a woman ovulates (when they are horniest and furtile) and that avoiding intercourse during this time prevents pregnancy.

It is much easier to ask the broad when her period is than putting on a balloon. Assuming she tells the truth and there is no fear of Herpes. ;)

A group that advocates abstinence-only education took issue with the study, saying that when birth control is taught in the classroom it can drive up pregnancy rates.
Let's be sure not to let facts get in the way of our agenda.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Snouter
I don't remember any "health" class in the public schools I attended discussing the couple of days a month that a woman ovulates (when they are horniest and furtile) and that avoiding intercourse during this time prevents pregnancy.

It is much easier to ask the broad when her period is than putting on a balloon. Assuming she tells the truth and there is no fear of Herpes. ;)

Know what you call two people who use that method for birth control?

PARENTS! LOL!

Originally posted by jwreck
Let's be sure not to let facts get in the way of our agenda.:rolleyes:

What ARE the facts? Do we even know? What REALLY keeps people from getting pregnant or opting for birth control? I dunno . . .

I mean, come on, it's not like there's a 12 year old kid in the U.S. who doesn't know what a condom is or what gas station has them. Hehehehe . . . crap, their SCHOOL probably offers them.

I think what we need to use isn't education (like that works, right?) but, instead, some social pressures that make it less cool for some stud to be out planting his seed in every teeny-bopper he finds.

I sincerely don't think that it's always about ignorance but more about not caring.

Originally posted by Manu
US Lags in Control of Teen Pregnancy, Birth, and Abortion

Manu, I'm screwing them as fast as I can . . . .

:D

FACT: America has a higher teen pregnancy rate than countries with more sex education. So there argument that sex education LEADS TO HIGHER teen pregnancy rates is flawed.
IMNSHO the problem is with the stigma that goes with sex in this country. Kids are afraid or embarrassed to obtain contraceptives. OK, so they can anonomously buy condoms from a machine in a gas station. Is that really the best birth control? If condoms are availible at school, SOMEONE will still know you're getting that condom, so you will face all the things that go with that.
Among other things, the study found that U.S. teens use contraceptives, especially hormonal methods such as injections and implants, less often than their foreign counterparts. How many girls doo you think would feel comfortable telling their parents they wanted to get on the pill? Even if they did ask, how many parents would say yes and not some BS like "I'm not gonna taak eyou because that would mean I'm condoning it and I don't think you should be having sex."? Again, this is all my opinion based on what I've seen

Okay, this will sound bad, BUT . . . if a kid is not responsible enough to secure SOME kind of birth control, is that person responsible enough to be having sex? Just some food for pondering.

And NO, it won't stop teenage sex. FREAKING NOTHING will stop teenage sex. Period.

Short thoughts:

In "my day" the pill WAS permission to screw. If some girl was on the pill (and wasn't a virgin), there was NO EXCUSE not to put out (yes, I said that with a straight face . . . lol . . . sort of . . . okay, I didn't . . . but that's the sentiment felt "back then"). Since STD's in my area were as rare as hen's teeth (we had informants in EVERY pharmacy . . . no poo-poo . . . how did you think we knew about "the pill" :D), a girl on the pill was like an aircraft carrier out along in the Persian Gulf . . . HUGE TARGET.

And YES, I know that's sad . . . but that's how it was. And honestly, I doubt if things change much.

As far as using an implant, can't you see those or something? Hehehehehe . . . forget a pierced tongue baby . . . a big bulging contraceptive in a chick's arm would be sexier. LOL!

Is a condom the "best" birth contronl. Eh . . . debatable, but it IS the best protection for std's. Would you recommend a girl on the pill NOT require a condom, as well?

They're going to screw anyway, may as well educate them on how not to get pregnant or diseases.

In the UK birth control is free to people of all ages. That includes condoms which can be picked up from medical centres without an appointment. (They just have a huge tub of them by the entrance.)

There has also recently been a change in the law whereby anyone can ask a pharmacist for the Emergency Contraceptive (Morning After Pill), and don't have to see a doctor to prescribe it.

What's the situation in the States? Do you have to pay to be on the pill?

Condoms are free for the taking at any health department.

Originally posted by D Durden
Condoms are free for the taking at any health department.

I do not think that is widely known...I didn't know it!

Icarus- Yes, you need to pay for the pill. The other hurdle is that oftentimes the insurance companies won't pay for it. Many teenage girls can get by that by being on acne medication. This medication makes a pregnancy during the course of the meds bad (can lead to complications) so they can get the pill covered by insurance. There was recently a move by the fed to start covering birth control.

On college campuses condoms are readily availible for free. In the dorms, at the student health center.

Dave, NOTHING we do will stop kids from having sex, so isn't education and getting contraceptives out the big push? (And unlike back in your day, now if a girl is on the pill that isn't an open invitation.)

It all has to do with communication with parents and comfort, like j said.

And Dave, in SOME cases (notice not all) it is not a case of the person not being responsible enough to get a contraceptive, but rather they feel embarassed or ashamed to buy it or ask for it.

I know being a teen and buying condoms older shop keepers look at you funny, give you dirty looks. A friend of mine even had this old kook REFUSE to sell him the condoms...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Manu


I do not think that is widely known...I didn't know it!

Maybe you should f*** more . . . It gets expensive after 8 or 9 boxes in a week . . . LMAO!!!!!!!!! :D

Icarus- Yes, you need to pay for the pill. The other hurdle is that oftentimes the insurance companies won't pay for it. Many teenage girls can get by that by being on acne medication. This medication makes a pregnancy during the course of the meds bad (can lead to complications) so they can get the pill covered by insurance. There was recently a move by the fed to start covering birth control.

Actually, if a girl wants to get on the pill, all she has to do is say her cramps are REALLY bad, and most doctors will put her on the pill to control them. Don't ask me how I know that.

Dave, NOTHING we do will stop kids from having sex, so isn't education and getting contraceptives out the big push? (And unlike back in your day, now if a girl is on the pill that isn't an open invitation.)

First off, if your daughter came to you wanting to be on the pill, what would you assume? Don't beat around the bush (hehehehehe!), be frank with yourself. If a girl is on the pill FOR BIRTH CONTROL then, logic says, she is willing to have sex under SOME kind of circumstance. Okay, maybe it's not an open invitation anymore, BUT, it's a sign that the girl IS willing to have sex. There's no question about it. It's just a matter of finding a way in.

Remember, the ONLY difference between rape and sex is salesmanship. (and, before you flame me, that came off the NOW website, so jump their butts . . . not mine)

As far as education goes, okay, great. What a wonderful idea . . . sorta' like what we did for drugs, right? LOL! Doctors have one of the highest smoking rates among professional jobs. Education works, right? LOL!

Sure, we need to educate kids on the principles of sex and what the consequences are. However, I don't think we need to beat the subject to death or constantly bring it up. It's not like teenagers need help thinking about sex. I mean, I knew the ins and outs pretty young (hehehehe), but I KNEW where to get condoms, and the directions on the back didn't confuse me. I don't think kids need a 3 hour seminar every three weeks about sex . . . unless it's done at an adult bookstore and some teacher named Ms. Lovespoonge is giving out grades! LOL!

It all has to do with communication with parents and comfort, like j said.

And Dave, in SOME cases (notice not all) it is not a case of the person not being responsible enough to get a contraceptive, but rather they feel embarassed or ashamed to buy it or ask for it.

So, you're too immature to take responsibity for your actions, but you ARE mature enough to risk disease and making another life (and killing it if you abort him/her). That's a weak argument, Manu. I think that there DOES need to be a certain maturity level before you seriously think about having sex, and sliding a box of Trojans across the checker's booth at WalMart is HARDLY the most difficult part of sex. Hell, it's the most fun. There's NOTHING like scratching off the price on a box of Magnums, finding the most gorgeous checkout girl, and handing them over. Then, you can enjoy everyone at the store gawk at you when she has to call for a price check on "Magnum Condoms" over the PA. Then you say "hey, I can pick up another box if you're free later . . . "

I know being a teen and buying condoms older shop keepers look at you funny, give you dirty looks. A friend of mine even had this old kook REFUSE to sell him the condoms...

You live in Cali, right? What, only about 30 or 40 places to get condoms within a sperm's swim of you? Hey, try 16 years ago in rural West Tennessee where EVERY drug store was owned by someone who knew your parents. Hey, we found gas stations, mail order, Wal-Mart in towns far away, and, in some cases, freaking stole boxes (lol, and left money under the door when we felt guilty . . . they knew anyway we later found out). Basically, we were responsible and did what needed to be done. If your (not yours, but you get the point) precious psyche is going to be injured if someone at Super-D's knows you're going to shag the neighbor's daughter, maybe you don't need to be shagging, you know?

It's like dancing . . . if you don't, I will . . . :D

The insurance companies have got that all wrong surely?
If a girl gets pregnant as a result of not being on the pill, the amount they would pay out would surely be more than if they paid for the pill in the first place.

Maybe that's the answer to the teenage pregnancy problem. Free contraceptives for all. Although there does seem to be a way around the whole insurance thing, by making them free for all you are also covering the people who aren't insured in the first place.

Yeah, but you seem to forget that "free to the public and poor" means that I have to pay for some crack whore to have "safe sex". sorry man . . . if I'm paying for SOMEONE to have sex, I'll be having it, thank you!

I think it has more to do with responsibility than anything.

Any girl can go down to a planned parenthood and get the morning after pill, free of charge, and that is not abortion. Its a totally different thing, a thing I wholeheartedly approve of and wonder why this isnt advertised more on both sides of the abortion argument.
Its responsibility and people not taking responsibility for their actions.
Furthermore, if a girl at the prom can go have a kid, throw it in the dumpster, then go back inside and dance, what is this telling us about kids and the lessons and values they are being taught in and out of the classroom? How can this girl have such a low value on human life, her own child at that?!!!

I think we'd all be better off if abstinence was taught, and promoted instead of being scoffed at and fed the lame excuse "they're going to do it any ways".

Why has the teen birth rate gone up so much from a few decades ago? Not enough social pressure, not enough condemnation of it, there is no stigma attached to it anylonger, and finally these people have no fear of consequences or responsibility on their part.
And the most important factor is parenting and the values that are taught to kids and its very obvious these kids are not being taught the values to cherish sex and that it is to be done with someone VERY special. And that is very saddening to me.
In most cases, kids that have a close relationship with their parents, learn the lessons and values their parents teach them.
Im sure Ill be labeled "out of touch" or "old fashioned" or something like that, but we sure could learn a thing or two from the generation of people who built this country, but to all of you who say that I am out of it or not realistic, you are all just excuse makers.

think what we need to use isn't education (like that works, right?) but, instead, some social pressures that make it less cool for some stud to be out planting his seed in every teeny-bopper he finds.

I sincerely don't think that it's always about ignorance but more about not caring.

THAT, is exactly right Dave.

And Dave, in SOME cases (notice not all) it is not a case of the person not being responsible enough to get a contraceptive, but rather they feel embarassed or ashamed to buy it or ask for it.

Do you think that may be because they know they are too young and shouldnt really be engaging in sexual relations at such a young age?


Its ok though, we can just suck it into a sink or toss it into a dumpster, right?

Originally posted by D Durden


Actually, if a girl wants to get on the pill, all she has to do is say her cramps are REALLY bad, and most doctors will put her on the pill to control them. Don't ask me how I know that.



Actually, that's not all true - I was put on the pill because of an irregular, unusually severe period and ungodly cramps, and I pay $10 a month (cheaper than most people pay because it's through my school). It's not covered by my insurance, that I know of, even though it's not prescribed as a birth control, but as a medication. Even though it's for valid medical reasons, my mother will not pay for it, because of the side effect that it's a birth control...she figures she'd be encouraging me to have sex (this from the woman who told me that, if we couldn't contain ourselves when my boyfriend came to visit, that we should rent a cheap motel room). Yeah, I do use the Pill for what they gave it to me for, and for birth control - it's just a great thing all around. But it's really a pain in the ass sometimes, when I have to pay for it and have no money - it is a medication, and I do have to take it for medical reasons, but because it's a sex thing, it's all taboo with my family, which is frustrating as all get out.

Repressing sex in children doesn't work - it's been proven with countless studies. The only thing that seems to work is to educate them, and that's just not getting through all that government bureaucracy (something I learned all about when I was working for the Dept of Health - they really are not for abstinance-only education, because it doesn't work, but they can't get safe sex education through the bureaucracy). In my opinion, those government prudes need to get the sticks out of their asses and take off their blindfolds so they can see that what they're doing really just isn't working.

Originally posted by D Durden
Yeah, but you seem to forget that "free to the public and poor" means that I have to pay for some crack whore to have "safe sex". sorry man . . . if I'm paying for SOMEONE to have sex, I'll be having it, thank you!

But you would have to pay for her child when she ends up pregnant and on welfare!

Originally posted by Icarus


But you would have to pay for her child when she ends up pregnant and on welfare!


That's exactly what I was thinking.

Okay, education . . . yeah, we need to educate our kids about sex . . . fine, wonderful, excellent.

Here's my beef (uh, so to speak!) . . . can anyone here go into their local high school, get into a freshman class, and honestly get a "I don't know how you get pregnant" answer from anyone? What about "you mean, you can get diseases by having sex?" from some kid? Probably not. Yeah, you'll find a FEW, but not many.

I guess my thing is that, sure, some kids are going to get pregnant out of ignorance, but to say that education is some kind of blanket cure is naive. Also, exactly WHAT are we educating on? Are we teaching disease/pregnancy prevention OR are we teaching proper sexual techniques, sensitivity training, and sexual harrassment interdiction. We NEED to be asking questions about what our "sex education" really consists of.

Again, though, I think you REALLY have to look at social pressures. In my school, smoking was kinda' trashy, so people either hid it or didn't do it at all. There were social consequences. Now, hell, everybody smokes. You'll see 14 year old girls puffing away outside every mall in America . . . why? It's "cool", rebelious, and yet, there are no peer level social pressures against smoking.

Originally posted by D Durden
Okay, education . . . yeah, we need to educate our kids about sex . . . fine, wonderful, excellent.

Here's my beef (uh, so to speak!) . . . can anyone here go into their local high school, get into a freshman class, and honestly get a "I don't know how you get pregnant" answer from anyone? What about "you mean, you can get diseases by having sex?" from some kid? Probably not. Yeah, you'll find a FEW, but not many.

I bet youd be suprised. Id be willing to wager that not many teenagers are real up to speed on STDs. I certainly am not, I couldnt tell you the difference between Hepatites A B or C and say gonorrhea or syphillis. Is there a difference between herpes and "cold sores"? Nor am I even sure how one goes about contracting these diseases other than that they are STDs. I know HIV can be transmitted blood to blood but im a bit shaky on exactly how likely a guy is to contract it from having sex. I can imagine most high school students are far more ignorant on this shit than I am.

Originally posted by D Durden

I guess my thing is that, sure, some kids are going to get pregnant out of ignorance, but to say that education is some kind of blanket cure is naive. Also, exactly WHAT are we educating on? Are we teaching disease/pregnancy prevention OR are we teaching proper sexual techniques, sensitivity training, and sexual harrassment interdiction. We NEED to be asking questions about what our "sex education" really consists of.

Again, though, I think you REALLY have to look at social pressures. In my school, smoking was kinda' trashy, so people either hid it or didn't do it at all. There were social consequences. Now, hell, everybody smokes. You'll see 14 year old girls puffing away outside every mall in America . . . why? It's "cool", rebelious, and yet, there are no peer level social pressures against smoking.

So what are you saying? Dont educate people about contraception, and deny them access to birth control? I fail to see how that solves any problems. Now it may be you would rather see kids not have sex at all, fair enough, but we all know that kids are going to have sex regardless. Why not atleast give these kids the tools to stop the spread of disease and prevent pregnancy. Most teenage mothers are single. To you, having a baby may be a beautifull thing. To a 16 year old girl from a lower income (often single parent) family its probably closer to a nightmare. Sure maybe efforts could be made to educate boys about standing by their ladies, but if the guy was irresponsible enough to get her pregnant is he going to be a reliable father? Is any underaged guy qualified to be a good dad? The stats about delinquent behaviour amoungst childern (and adults) without live in fathers is dramatic. I see two solutions, either make contraception readily accessible, or start building more prisons, treatment facilities, and soup kitchens for your bumper crops of ****ed up kids.

I will post more in a bit, and reread your post Dave...

But, basically you're saying you were not responsible or man enough to go and buy condoms and take the 'responsability' of it, so you stole them...

Thats what we should be telling our kids. We don't give you condoms! Be responsible. STEAL them. :rolleyes:

It's such a touchy subject.

I agree that abstinance should be taught during sex education in schools because when you're 15, 16, 17, even 18, I really think abstinance is the way to go. I think a lot of times, kids become sexually active before they're ready. I know I did, and I was 18.

The thing is, along with talking about abstinance, you've just got to educate people about STD's and contraceptives. Because kids are going to have sex whether they should or not, and we should at least equip them with knowledge.

You can say we should leave this up to parents, but sometimes parents don't feel comfortable about talking to their kids about these things. And I know my mom was the last person I wanted to talk to about sex! Plus, unless parents are doctors or nurses, they don't necessarily have the most current or up to date info.

And besides, what are we going to do with all these unwanted kids when their teenage mothers give birth to them? And what about the mothers? Unless we start instituting universal childcare or something, it's nearly impossible for a single teenaged mother to raise a child without being on wellfare. Who here is ready and willing to support an unplanned pregnancy with their tax dollars because they didn't want sex education in high school?

In this case ignorance is not bliss. And Durden, I was an RA at my college for two years. You'd be surprised what 18-22 years olds don't know about sex and STD contraction. I once counseled a crying 20 year old because she (still) thought that she couldn't get pregnant the first time she had sex. She found out the hard way that she was wrong...

I think its funny that in a gun control thread or drug legaliztioan thread its easy to agree that prohibition doesn't work. Chande the subject to sex and suddenly the logic becomes abstinance i king(I guess abstinance is completely different than prohibition:rolleyes: ). Why can't you see that the same theory applies here? So, PB, you think we should go back to the days when a girls life was RUINED if she got pregnant instead of trying to allow the mother to succeed and be able to provide for the baby? The fact is, you can tell people not to drink. Not to do drugs, not to kill each otehr. Not to have sex unless you're married. Are they really gonna listen?

Well lets ask ourselves why teen pregnancy has gone WAY up in the last several decades.
Why?
Why has teen alcholism, drugs gone WAY up?

I would really like to hear your answers?

I think much of it has to do with society becoming less shocked by this behaivior and much less willing to condemn it. And of course the old "moral relativism". You cant judge me, nothing is right or wrong kind of bull shit. Also, the lack of proper teaching of values by parents.

How is the theory the same JW? Sex is a behaivior, one which is and can be controlled with a just a little disipline.
A gun or a bottle of booze is not a behaivior.

How was someones life ruined when they got pregnant back then?
They were embarassed and humilited, and made to feel like what they did was wrong, when it was wrong, and those consequences are what kept a lot of people in line.
It sent a clear message.
Thats a big difference from ruining someones life.


Im not saying were going to stop it all completely, but to give up and say we cant get it under some kind of control, and we cant start to teach some of these people what self respect is, and not try to teach our youngsters what a special thing it is and how you should save it for someone special rather than the concepts of "instant gratification" and "if it feels good, do it", and the encouragement and promotion of it by our leaders and teachers...well that is just wrong to me and I dont want someone telling that to MY children. I will do everything in my power to bring my children up in an environment that teaches them values, self respect and many other positive things.
You can choose to bring your kids up any way you like, and if acting immorraly or without any self respect is the way you like, fine, just dont tell me Im wrong for not wanting that for my kid or push that type of agenda on my kid.

I hope that explains it.

Originally posted by Powerboss
Well lets ask ourselves why teen pregnancy has gone WAY up in the last several decades.
Why?
Why has teen alcholism, drugs gone WAY up?


Could it be our tax dollars funding first Aid To Families w/ Dependent Children, and morphing into whatever welfare programs exist today?

We're in 4th or 5th generation of unwanted (except for the foodstamps) uncared-for single 'mother'-female,anyway- children.

I propose calling it the Liberal Law of Unintended Consequences, which is now ready for more band-aids... sex ed must be answer, schools are the problem, it's all our fault... wahhhh, sob, sob... throw more money & bureacracy at it...

Of course morals are relative.....;)

Originally posted by Powerboss
Well lets ask ourselves why teen pregnancy has gone WAY up in the last several decades.
Why?
Why has teen alcholism, drugs gone WAY up?

I would really like to hear your answers?Actually, last I heard teen drug use was way down. Well, I'm not a socioligist, but I'm quite sure that you can't point to one factor without looking at the interaction of several things. Maybe kids have too much time on their hands. People are entertained at a high level from an early age, so they stretch the boundaries to find a thrill. Parents are too busy to really know what their kids are doing. Yes, of coarse "moral relativism" as you put it has something to do with. If adults can't even decide for sure wether or not something is good or bad how can you expect a kid to?


How is the theory the same JW? Sex is a behaivior, one which is and can be controlled with a just a little disipline.
A gun or a bottle of booze is not a behaivior. How is it different? Wasn't prohibion about not drinking? The theory being if there is no booze people won't drink. I'm sure many people would be quite happy to remove teenagers genitals until they decided it was OK to have sex, but that's not realistic, so they just try to prohibit the behavior instead of the means for the behavior. Can't drinking be controlled with discipline? The fact is telling people not to do something doesn't work. Period. Never has. Never will.

How was someones life ruined when they got pregnant back then?
They were embarassed and humilited, and made to feel like what they did was wrong, when it was wrong, and those consequences are what kept a lot of people in line.
It sent a clear message.
Thats a big difference from ruining someones life.
I can honestly say I wasn't around "back then" and I would venture to say neither were you so instead of entering into a completely ignorant argument I'll just retract that statement.

Im not saying were going to stop it all completely, but to give up and say we cant get it under some kind of control, and we cant start to teach some of these people what self respect is, and not try to teach our youngsters what a special thing it is and how you should save it for someone special rather than the concepts of "instant gratification" and "if it feels good, do it", and the encouragement and promotion of it by our leaders and teachers...well that is just wrong to me and I dont want someone telling that to MY children. I will do everything in my power to bring my children up in an environment that teaches them values, self respect and many other positive things.
You can choose to bring your kids up any way you like, and if acting immorraly or without any self respect is the way you like, fine, just dont tell me Im wrong for not wanting that for my kid or push that type of agenda on my kid. And herein lies the problem. You say the term "moral relativism" as a bad thing. Think about what you just stated here. Everything you stated here is YOUR opinion. Who said anything about giving up? I just think it makes more since to try and minimize the damage by trying to educate kids on how to to things safely than just telling them not to do it and then saying they deserve all the consequences because they should have just obeyed. Another thing, who says sex is something special that should be saved for someone special? Why do you think a person who has sex doesn't respect themselves? Yes, what your children learn should be what you teach them. But I'll be damned if yoour going to condemn my child because she doesn't live up to YOUR standards! And that's the bottom line.

Actually, last I heard teen drug use was way down. Well, I'm not a socioligist, but I'm quite sure that you can't point to one factor without looking at the interaction of several things. Maybe kids have too much time on their hands. People are entertained at a high level from an early age, so they stretch the boundaries to find a thrill. Parents are too busy to really know what their kids are doing. Yes, of coarse "moral relativism" as you put it has something to do with. If adults can't even decide for sure wether or not something is good or bad how can you expect a kid to?

Yep, I think you are right about fairly recent drug use, I think it went way down and just within the last 2 years it went up a little.
I was referring to decades much earlier.

How is it different? Wasn't prohibion about not drinking? The theory being if there is no booze people won't drink. I'm sure many people would be quite happy to remove teenagers genitals until they decided it was OK to have sex, but that's not realistic, so they just try to prohibit the behavior instead of the means for the behavior. Can't drinking be controlled with discipline? The fact is telling people not to do something doesn't work. Period. Never has. Never will.

Booze and guns are both objects, they are things.
Sexual activity is simply a behaivior.
I agree, simply telling someone not to do it, especially a teen, will only make them want to do it more.
Its got to be more about teaching your kids values and respect for themselves and others, so they make the right decisions.

I can honestly say I wasn't around "back then" and I would venture to say neither were you so instead of entering into a completely ignorant argument I'll just retract that statement.

Fair enough, I was not also around. I gathered my info from what I had read and heard. Maybe sometime Ill ask my mom about it and see what she says.

And herein lies the problem. You say the term "moral relativism" as a bad thing. Think about what you just stated here. Everything you stated here is YOUR opinion. Who said anything about giving up? I just think it makes more since to try and minimize the damage by trying to educate kids on how to to things safely than just telling them not to do it and then saying they deserve all the consequences because they should have just obeyed. Another thing, who says sex is something special that should be saved for someone special? Why do you think a person who has sex doesn't respect themselves? Yes, what your children learn should be what you teach them. But I'll be damned if yoour going to condemn my child because she doesn't live up to YOUR standards! And that's the bottom line.

My opinion and moral relativism are two different things.

Moral Relativism is the type of philosophy we get, saying that we cant make any judgements, that everthing is equal, and there is no right and no wrong. I know you know that is total bs. We did nothing that warrented 9/11, but some moral relativists would have you belive we deserved it, and Bin Ladin isnt evil, we just dont understand him.
I have no problem educating kids, I guess its how the educating is being done. I dont believe during these sex ed classes, students are being told not to do it, wait, for someone special.
They are being handed condems, in some cases. What is that telling the kid? I think it is only encouraging something we, as parents (most of us), really dont want our kids to be doing yet.

Teaching is one thing, but undermining the "family" is another.

To answer some of your questions, I would say that one thing that separates Man from the animals in the world is our ability to control ourselves and our urges.
Having multiple partners invites pregnancy, disease (deadly and non deadly), and other problems physically and mentally.
Just think, how much real progress could be made on ridding the Aids virus if people just had monogamous sex.
I dont think a person who has sex doesnt respect themselves, I think a person who has sex with multitudes of partners doesnt respect themself or the people they are having sex with.
I call a teen who has multiple partners a ho, isnt that what everyone calls her?
And that points to greater issues. Why does she need to act out in this manner at such a young age?
Teens, while they have the physical capactiy dont have the mental capacity to see the consequences and ramifications of thier actions. Im not saying theyre stupid, its just that they havent fully matured mentally. Id bet if you ask all teen mothers who are now in their 30's and 40's if they had to do it all over again, would they pursue the same path, most would say NO. But thats a hunch, I could be wrong.
Finally, I would never tell you or anyone else how to raise your child, thats your business. I can only hope you would give them the love, nurturing, and security, and good values (however you define them), that so many teens today seem to have gotten ripped off on.

Originally posted by buggy
They're going to screw anyway, may as well educate them on how not to get pregnant or diseases.
My daughter sure as hell is not!!!
I am currently looking of a convent where she can go when she gets to be about 14. Anyone know any?

I do have one serious thing to say on this matter. I think that while some teens will choose to have sex, there will be others who do not. If we offer abstinance, as a choice and only a choice then I think we can reach out to those kids who choose not to have sex.

The fact of comparing kids doing drugs to sex is not a good one, as we activly encourage kids NOT to do drugs.....you know...."Just Say No" or the DARE programs. Or how about smoking....all the money to encourage them NOT TO SMOKE. we tell them they can and should control those urges for the very reason that it is harmful to them.

Yet when it comes to sex...some of you say....well they can't control those urges and why should they since they will do it anyway....so give 'em a condom.

Do you see the mixed message there? And do condoms stop most of the STD's out there? Doesn't stop clymidia which is female related and can KILL the girl. Syph can lead to madness and kill a baby if the girl gets pregnant wihle she has it. Not to mention I remember hearing about blindness in the baby as well. Herpes is permanent....cannot be gotten rid of. Can be transmited through intercourse OR oral contact.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of kids out there who have decided to save themselves for marriage. The are movements such as "True Love Waits" and others that emphasize the importance of waiting. And of not getting oneself in a position to have to be subject to the temptation. If the fire is never kindled, it won't have to be put out later.

Our society now places little value on the act of sex, much to the detriment of the young people. They are not taught that it is a special act to unite two people. It has become a type of recreation game, much the way a kiss on the first date used to be. We have traded the preciousness of getting to know a person intimately APART from sex (and all its forms) to a quick wham-bam. Sex does not help you to know a person at all. Compatibility in bed does not a relationship make.

We have traded real love, that gives to the other unselfishly and without compromise, for a cheap imitation that leaves one empty and wondering why. Is that the legacy you want for your kids? Not me thanks.

BTW, I speak from experience in case anyone was wondering.

Becky

Originally posted by CodyChaos


I bet youd be suprised. Id be willing to wager that not many teenagers are real up to speed on STDs. I certainly am not, I couldnt tell you the difference between Hepatites A B or C and say gonorrhea or syphillis. Is there a difference between herpes and "cold sores"? Nor am I even sure how one goes about contracting these diseases other than that they are STDs. I know HIV can be transmitted blood to blood but im a bit shaky on exactly how likely a guy is to contract it from having sex. I can imagine most high school students are far more ignorant on this shit than I am.

Most students know that you can catch diseases if you have sex without a condom . . . and even WITH a condom. I don't think there's an issue about how you get AIDs, either. Almost every school in my area has a social worker in grade school discussing those things to classes and not individuals.

As far as knowing the different strains and symptoms, I think that information is important to tertiary. The first stage should be the clear understanding that sex has consequences and these are them . . . Then you can get into the details.

So what are you saying? Dont educate people about contraception, and deny them access to birth control?

Where did I say that? I merely said that if a person is too self-concious or too much of a wuss to go get a rubber, maybe he or she isn't old enough to handle the responsiblity, you know?


Now it may be you would rather see kids not have sex at all, fair enough, but we all know that kids are going to have sex

Actually, I've never even mentioned abstanance. To me, and this is really warped, any kid with the mentality to understand the risks and exercise enough self-control NOT to have sex young is probably mature and responsible enough to HAVE sex!

My whole discussion STIPULATES teens will be having sex, actually.

Why not atleast give these kids the tools to stop the spread of disease and prevent pregnancy.

Once again, where do I even suggest that? Just because I don't think they should be passed out like candy at schools and churches doesn't mean I want them restircted. Condoms are free at the health department and 50 or 75 cents at Bi-Rite (and they carry brand name condoms, too!). What's the huge restriction?

Most teenage mothers are single. To you, having a baby may be a beautifull thing. To a 16 year old girl from a lower income (often single parent) family its probably closer to a nightmare. Sure maybe efforts could be made to educate boys about standing by their ladies, but if the guy was irresponsible enough to get her pregnant is he going to be a reliable father?

Turn it around . . . a girl irresponsible enough to get knocked up is going to make a good mother? I don't buy the "o poor little thing" argument for girls.

Is any underaged guy qualified to be a good dad? The stats about delinquent behaviour amoungst childern (and adults) without live in fathers is dramatic. I see two solutions, either make contraception readily accessible, or start building more prisons, treatment facilities, and soup kitchens for your bumper crops of ****ed up kids.

Okay, make contraceptives more accessible. Hmmmmm . . . I live in a town of about 7,500, and I can name 10 or 15 places off-hand that offer condoms. Probably 7 of those are bathrooms in gas stations. So, for 50 to 75 cents, you can get laid . . . in realative safety. Pretty good deal, to me! Split it with your partner, and we're talking about a quarter each. So, are you telling me that 25 cents each is the reason that people don't use condoms and girls get pregnant? Man, I just don't buy that (so to speak, of course).

Seventeen years ago, I bought 'em. My friends bought 'em. Hell, my freakin' 16 year old girlfriend bought 'em . . . in a box . . . at WalMart. Who cares?

I just don't see what the point of more accessible is? Do we want a big bowl of them in each bathroom in high schools AND junior highs? What about just spiking public school water with a birth control chemical? Hey, we wouldn't have to worry about a thing, then. Maybe mandatory VD checks weekly . . . and enforced treatment. We then move all the chronic cases out to another place to keep people safe. Crap, that way kids could just screw in the halls without fear of disease or pregnancy. Hell, sounds like a great idea! LOL!

Originally posted by Manu
I will post more in a bit, and reread your post Dave...

But, basically you're saying you were not responsible or man enough to go and buy condoms and take the 'responsability' of it, so you stole them...

Thats what we should be telling our kids. We don't give you condoms! Be responsible. STEAL them. :rolleyes:

You missed the ENTIRE point . . . we used them. We went to whatever steps it took to be safe. We weren't "scared" to either buy them or steal them. Anyone too candyazz to get a condom (somehow) doesn't deserve to get laid.

I can only hope you would give them the love, nurturing, and security, and good values (however you define them), that so many teens today seem to have gotten ripped off on.
That's where the problem is. If parents were actually raising their kids it wouldn't matter what the school is telling them.

Originally posted by Criminal

My daughter sure as hell is not!!!
I am currently looking of a convent where she can go when she gets to be about 14. Anyone know any?

ROFL. Man, you sound like my father. :)

When I was a youth counselor, I found the young women to be EXTREMELY experimental. As much as you would talk to them about self control and disease, it really mattered not.

I, myself, don't understand it. All I was worried about at 13 was video games, my softball games... hanging out with my family. I guess I wasn't a normal kid compared to today's generation.

Not to mention, I liked my parents, and I did not want to disappoint them - "Mom... I think I'm pregnant" or "Mom ... I have the clap!"

Just something to think about. What would you say to you're child if they became infected with HIV? Is that a conversation you really want to have with them? Pregnancy is suddenly irrelevant. Could you watch your child die a slow, painful death, when it was preventable? What would you say to them, "I told you so. This is why you should have been abstinate."? Me personally, if it takes a bowl of condoms in all the bathrooms in all the schools in the country to minimize the chances of having to go through something like that with my child I'm all for it. What does it really hurt. I would rather be safe than sorry.

Originally posted by CodyChaos


I bet youd be suprised. Id be willing to wager that not many teenagers are real up to speed on STDs. I certainly am not, I couldnt tell you the difference between Hepatites A B or C and say gonorrhea or syphillis. Is there a difference between herpes and "cold sores"? Nor am I even sure how one goes about contracting these diseases other than that they are STDs. I know HIV can be transmitted blood to blood but im a bit shaky on exactly how likely a guy is to contract it from having sex. I can imagine most high school students are far more ignorant on this shit than I am.


For your information:

Hepatitis: inflammation of the liver caused by viruses, toxic substances, or immunological abnormalities.
Hepatitis A is transmitted through contaminated food and drink. There is a vaccine for this, which you are advised to have if travelling to certain African countries.
Hepatitis B is a blood borne virus transmitted through infected blood and blood products or sexual contact.
Hepatitis C is transmitted in the same way as B.
There is also a vaccine which is usually only given to people who are high risk. Such as nurses and health care professionals who handle blood products. This last two types are transmitted in the same way as HIV and many HIV + patients have Hep B & C as well as HIV. Hepatitis is much easier to transmit than HIV though.

Herpes:
Genital Herpes is a sexually transmitted disease, usually caused by the simplex herpes virus type II, and is sexually transmitted.
Coldsores are caused by the simplex herpres virus type I which also causes chicken pox and shingles, and this is transmitted through saliva, so not classed as a sexually transmitted disease. Once transmitted the HSV type I virus lies dormant in the spinal cord and so coldsores can be reoccuring at times when the immune system is slightly compromised (ie when you've got a cold), which is why you never really cure HSV type I. (or type II for that matter.)

You are right, many people are ignorant about these types of diseases. Some people think that coldsores are a side effect of some more sinister STD. They aren't.
The sad thing is there are vaccines for hepatitis, but people don't know about that.

Originally posted by jwreck
Just something to think about. What would you say to you're child if they became infected with HIV? Is that a conversation you really want to have with them? Pregnancy is suddenly irrelevant. Could you watch your child die a slow, painful death, when it was preventable? What would you say to them, "I told you so. This is why you should have been abstinate."? Me personally, if it takes a bowl of condoms in all the bathrooms in all the schools in the country to minimize the chances of having to go through something like that with my child I'm all for it. What does it really hurt. I would rather be safe than sorry.

But WOULD THAT REALLY MATTER? I mean, is someone is so uncaring as to neglect a 50 cent rubber, what makes you think that he'd use one at all? What's even worse is that not only does some schmuck of a guy have to be dumb enough to go out mining for the rare element of poontanium without proper protective gear, but he has to find some completely stupid wench to all the dig. So, what you're saying is that making condoms MANDATORY will somehow help prevent this from happening? I REALLY doubt it.

See, to me it's like this: some people are just going to foul up . . . period. They have for eons. The difference now is that instead of these people getting killed after screaming "hey, watch this . . .", we're making it easier for them to breed.

Think about this . . . think about some loser you know who is as fertile as the Nile and almost as productive. He's got 6 kids from 5 different women . . . with more planned. And forget about support.

Now, think about the average PROFESSIONAL person you know. How many kids? One . . . maybe 2 . . . on average. What's happening is reverse-evolution i.e. the weak are breeding while the "strong" are not. I think that this occurance is tearing our society apart.

Wow, good info guys!

Someone was saying make absintence an option. I agree 100%. We SHOULD encourage chilren to make well thoguht out choices regarding sex. We should encourage them to 'wait' until they have intercorse. But to tell them to not have sex until marriage and EXPECTING that to happen is ridiculous. Look how many of the people posting here waiting for that. Hell, I know a lot of you guys didn't even wait till you were out of high school...

With that said...we should have a focus in our discussions with kids on waiting for the right person and making an informed choice. Knowing your partner, their history, etc.

BUT on top of that we need to teach children about STDs. We need to clear up misconceptions (and I know there are thousands!) We need to describes signs of knowing if a partner has one. How/when/if you need to be tested.

We need to let kids know what birthcontrol options are available. We need to let kids know the EFFECTIVENESS of said items.

The fact of comparing kids doing drugs to sex is not a good one, as we activly encourage kids NOT to do drugs.....you know...."Just Say No" or the DARE programs. Or how about smoking....all the money to encourage them NOT TO SMOKE. we tell them they can and should control those urges for the very reason that it is harmful to them
I think it is a valid comparison. But I think how we handle the drugs is the same exactl situation. We shouldn't JUST tell them 'Just say no.' That has proven to be highly ineffective. (the DARE program stoped using that heavily in the early 90s). We need to EDUCATE on the risks, the side effects, the costs. Children want to be adults. They want to make their own decisions. They hear adults say don't smoke, don't drink, dont do drugs, but then they see their parents, their stars, their presidents drinking, smoking, and doing drugs. They will do them then. But if we INFORM and educate them, at least IF (when?) they try some of those things it will be an informed decision. It will be a choice made KNOWING the consequences...

But WOULD THAT REALLY MATTER? I mean, is someone is so uncaring as to neglect a 50 cent rubber, what makes you think that he'd use one at all? What's even worse is that not only does some schmuck of a guy have to be dumb enough to go out mining for the rare element of poontanium without proper protective gear, but he has to find some completely stupid wench to all the dig. So, what you're saying is that making condoms MANDATORY will somehow help prevent this from happening? I REALLY doubt it. See, this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Do you really believe that to catch HIV you"have to be dumb enough to go out mining for the rare element of poontanium without proper protective gear, but he has to find some completely stupid wench to all the dig."? If so then you should probably attend a sex ed. class. Of course that may be true in Tenn., but in LA? Who said anything about making condoms mandatory? That's as assanine as saying you can dictate abstinance. The fact is you cannot control another persons sex life. All I would like is that person to be educated, and have unrestricted access to the tools to be safe.
See, to me it's like this: some people are just going to foul up . . . period. They have for eons. The difference now is that instead of these people getting killed after screaming "hey, watch this . . .", we're making it easier for them to breed. How is encouraging them to use condoms making it easier for them to breed? Think about this . . . think about some loser you know who is as fertile as the Nile and almost as productive. He's got 6 kids from 5 different women . . . with more planned. And forget about support. Think about this...convince girls that its not worth the risk to have sex without a condom and see how many kids she has then.
Now, think about the average PROFESSIONAL person you know. How many kids? One . . . maybe 2 . . . on average. What's happening is reverse-evolution i.e. the weak are breeding while the "strong" are not. I think that this occurance is tearing our society apart. I agree wholeheartedly. But I believe the way to balance that is to educate the masses for one. We also need to make it profitable to have more kids when you are on welfare, but that's another ball of wax.

Okay, and I have to ask this . . . do we REALLY BELIEVE that all these high schoolers who are pumping out units didn't know that doing the horizontal mambo without a sperm trampoline causes a 9 month abdominal inflation? So you guys are saying that "you know, if Maggie would have known that having sex caused pregnancy, maybe she would have used a condom". Dude, I went to school in a LITTLE BITTY place in the South, and, in 8th grade, we pretty much all knew about the little spermy thing and that sex caused pregnancy. We didn't need hour long meetings 3 times a week from Doctor Roof explaining that if we screw without a rubber, we could knock our chick up.

My freaking ex-wife is a sex instructor and abuse interdiction social worker for a freakin' primary school. Hell, she's talking diseases and pregnancy to 5th graders . . . AND THEY GET IT! It's amazing. Some of them already know a little about sex (some, too much). By the 8th grade, crap man, it's not a matter of ignorance but, instead, caring.

Look, we're the rural South, and, 17 years ago, we understood it. We didn't know the difference between the creeping crud, Mongolian nut rot, or mega-crabs from outter space, but we DID know that wearing a condom was a DAMN SPIFFY idea. Hey, we're the ignorant, inbred, no-tooth-having, racist pigs that you city people make fun of. Surely to GOODNESS you guys can figure out sex before you get into high school, can't you? What, not have a sister close to your age or something?? :D:D:D

Seriously, though, saying that condoms aren't accessible is like saying food isn't. Crap man, they're on every corner. Freaking spend 50 cents and buy a rubber. SHEESH! What's the big f-ing deal?

We DO need to educate . . . AND WE ARE!!! Cripes man, you guys all sound like our biggest excuse for teen pregnancy is "you mean, if I have sex, she can get pregnant" or "it just slipped in and went off . . . is that bad?" Guys, I dare say this . . . anywhere you can buy an aspirin, you can buy a condom (generally cheaper!). There IS NO EXCUSE not to use a condom. None . . . period. And I seriously doubt that if you went to an abortion clinic, the chief excuse for being pregnant would be "oh, we didn't know that you could get knocked up this way . . ." And, I'm also betting that most people who get VD FREAKING KNOW they're at risk. Okay, maybe they DON'T know the difference between Hep B or C . . . but they KNOW there's a risk of getting SOMETHING. I'm also betting they COULD have used a condom.

It's NOT a matter of access . . . it's a matter of excess . . . and a lack of giving a shit.

PERIOD.

See, this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Do you really believe that to catch HIV you"have to be dumb enough to go out mining for the rare element of poontanium without proper protective gear, but he has to find some completely stupid wench to all the dig."?

You have to be dumb enough to have sex with an unverified partner without using protection. That's CHOICE, and usually an educated decision.

The fact is you cannot control another persons sex life. All I would like is that person to be educated, and have unrestricted access to the tools to be safe.

Quite true, but we're not worried about educating me . . . we're worried about everyone else as individuals. Heck, I wear a condom when masturbating . . . who KNOWS who I've been with! :D I've had 1000's of different women (and they really missed out by not being there to enjoy it! :D).

How is encouraging them to use condoms making it easier for them to breed?

You miss my point. Some people just DON'T CARE! Giving them a condom at school EVERY DAY wouldn't matter. And, oddly enough, they eventually find a girl just as uncaring.

Of course that may be true in Tenn., but in LA?

Okay, I'll stipulate that anyone who lives in LA as opposed to God's country is obviously mentally lacking, but surely to goodness you guys watch enough tv to figure out how to make babies . . . and how NOT to. :D

Think about this...convince girls that its not worth the risk to have sex without a condom and see how many kids she has then.

What, you think that there are lots of girls getting pregnant now because they didn't KNOW they could get pregnant? Maybe SOME, but if you eliminated ALL of them, I doubt it would be statistically significant as opposed to the ones who simply don't care.

It's WORTH THE EFFORT, but exactly how much education do we deem fit?

But I believe the way to balance that is to educate the masses for one. We also need to make it profitable to have more kids when you are on welfare, but that's another ball of wax.

Okay, a little common ground here, but you're still operating under the assumption that there is a huge gap in sex education (no pun intended!!!). I don't see it . . . and I really didn't see it then.

Look at it this way, is teen smoking up? Publicly it is! I see it more and more often every day. So, are you assuming that education is to blame? "I didn't know smoking was bad . . . REALLY . . . . I thought it left a protective layer against the destruction of the ozone . . . " :rolleyes: They simply DON'T CARE. Sex is the same way. I think people know WELL the dangers . . . but don't care enough to protect themselves.

You'd be *amazed* how many teenagers don't think they can get pregnant if they guy pulls out, or if it's the girl's first time, or if they use a condom most of the time, or if it's during the girl's period...
They really do need to be educated about it. It's true, when you're older and have a more stable menstrual cycle, the chances of you getting pregnant during your period are slim to none...but for teenagers, the chance is actually pretty good that you will. And just because a guy or girl looks healthy and doesn't have any nasty sores all over their genitals doesn't mean that they are free from STDs - most are asymptomatic (but can cause all sorts of health problems if left untreated). Most teenagers don't take condom use seriously - if they have one, they're pretty likely to use it, but if they don't have one and they want to have sex...well, they're gonna do it.
I did a study a few summers ago for the Dept of Health about teen sexuality, and it's shocking how they act...they have no idea that what they're doing is putting them at risk for pregnancy or STDs - if they use condoms most of the time, they think they're safe. They simply need to be educated, because they flat-out don't know. *AND* they need to have condoms provided to them, because I got tons and tons of people who told me they used a condom if they had it, but sometimes they didn't have one, so they just went without because 'she looked clean' or something insane like that. Yeah, great, she looks clean, but a week down the road, you've got green goop coming out of your penis, and she's late getting her period...just because you didn't have a condom and couldn't/wouldn't/didn't go out and get more. When I talked to teenagers about their sex lives (as a 19 year old, who they viewed as a peer, not an adult), they were really honest with me, and it was frightening. When I told them what they needed to do, that they needed to be tested for STDs, that they needed to use a condom every time....they *had no idea*. We talked about where they get their sex ed...it's magazines and friends, and if their friends are telling them 'Go have sex, it feels awesome' rather than 'If you have sex, use a condom all the time,' they're going into it blindly, and that's where they end up getting hurt.
Yes, teenagers should wait to have sex, I agree. At that age, sex should be something you really think about and do carefully, not something you rush into. But if they're gonna do it (and they have been for ages and ages), they need to know exactly what they're doing, because they don't right now, and their home environments are not conducive to them asking their parents about it. Parents who tell their kids 'Sex is dirty and immoral, unless you're married' aren't going to get questions from their kids about sex...so if they go out and do it (secretly, and with high levels of sex-guilt, which leads to less safe sex - it's been documented), they're not gonna know. Someone needs to teach them the ways to be safe and careful, and it's time that people stopped passing around the guilt and did something about it - and that includes parents, schools, and health providers.

Originally posted by Momof6

Yet when it comes to sex...some of you say....well they can't control those urges and why should they since they will do it anyway....so give 'em a condom.

Do you see the mixed message there? And do condoms stop most of the STD's out there? Doesn't stop clymidia which is female related and can KILL the girl. Syph can lead to madness and kill a baby if the girl gets pregnant wihle she has it. Not to mention I remember hearing about blindness in the baby as well. Herpes is permanent....cannot be gotten rid of. Can be transmited through intercourse OR oral contact.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of kids out there who have decided to save themselves for marriage. The are movements such as "True Love Waits" and others that emphasize the importance of waiting. And of not getting oneself in a position to have to be subject to the temptation. If the fire is never kindled, it won't have to be put out later.



Becky, I have a new respect for you. I only wish everyone could have parents like you.

It seems like the young people of today are being sold a load of BS and no one wants to tell them the truth.

These days parents take an "I dont give damm" attitude. They send their kids off to school and go off to work and when the kids go home they seal themselves in their rooms in front of the tv or computer. THat is no way to keep a family together.

I am fortunate that I have parents who were a bit older and kept me on a short leash. Sure it sucked to have to tell mom or dad what time I was comming home. It was a drag not hanging out while other kids were out smoking and drinking. In the long run though I think I am a better person because of it.

Originally posted by Criminal


Becky, I have a new respect for you. I only wish everyone could have parents like you.

It seems like the young people of today are being sold a load of BS and no one wants to tell them the truth.

These days parents take an "I dont give damm" attitude. They send their kids off to school and go off to work and when the kids go home they seal themselves in their rooms in front of the tv or computer. THat is no way to keep a family together.

I am fortunate that I have parents who were a bit older and kept me on a short leash. Sure it sucked to have to tell mom or dad what time I was comming home. It was a drag not hanging out while other kids were out smoking and drinking. In the long run though I think I am a better person because of it.




We shall be instituting what is called courtship for our sons and daughter. Have you read Joshua Harris' book called "I Kissed Dating Goodbye?" It talks about this very thing......because for Christians marriage is a sacred vow taken before God and not to be entered into lightly. Sex is a metaphor for the covenant between Christ and humans. We become one..not in the carnal sense, but rather one in ideas and morals.....even as husband and wife become one in ideas, goals, and purpose.

I unfortunatly had parents who cared, but did not pay much attention. I started at 15, led by some nice Catholic boys down the street and off I went into 11 years of drugs, sex, and pain. I would spare my children the hurt I endured and instead lead them to a better way......a higher way. That is what love does.

And trust me.......you missed absolutly NOTHING. They make it look fun, but it isn't. They make it look like it brings happiness, but it doesn't. They make it look like it brings friends, but it doesn't. It brought me, sorrow and grief and an unplanned, illigetimate child, whom I loved nevertheless.

He is 25ish now and has made me a grandmother 3 times (the rotten kid!!) Not that i have seen them, as he is in the Navy on the East Coast and hopefully not in the Persian Gulf.

I hope you remember to thank your parents for sparing you the trials that I and many others experienced all to well. They did you a great service!

Becky

Question Dave,

Exactly was is the chance of getting pregnant from unprotected sex? How much is that percentage decreased by using a condom? Same questions for STDs. I don't know the answers to these questions. Unfortunately, many people take the attitude that "I got away with it before" or "I know people who tried for years before they got pregnant". This is the kind of education I'm talking about, not that the sperm fertilizes the egg. I'm also not saying that education is the end all be all answer to our problems. My main point is the fact that abstinance only teaching is just ridiculous. It'll never work. Just like telling someone don't drink or smoke (BTW, around here I see A LOT less kids smoking). Also, most groups that want to preach abstinance only want to LIMIT access to condoms. These are the problems I have. I never intended to imply that high schoolers don't know where babies come from.

Originally posted by jwreck
Exactly was is the chance of getting pregnant from unprotected sex?


85% chance of getting pregnant



How much is that percentage decreased by using a condom?


Male condom - 14% percent chance of getting pregnant, with typical use
3% chance of getting pregnant with perfect use

Female condom (Reality) - 21% chance of getting pregnant, with typical use
5% chance of getting pregnant with perfect use

(These are calculated by the number of women per 100 who got pregnant over the course of a year while using each form of contraception...or lack thereof.)

Don't remember the stats for STDs, but they're pretty high for non-condom users (assuming they're not in 100% committed monogamous relationships), while people who use condoms *EVERY TIME* are at a very, very low risk (except for some STDs, like scabies or genital warts, that might not be covered by a condom).
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Thanks Aphasia.

85% chance of getting pregnant If we could drive this point home I think it would actually make a difference. I had no idea it was that high.

Having been through two quite different sex ed. systems, I thought I'd add my pearls of wisdom. I've spent some time living in Sweden, a country with very low teen pregnancy and drug abuse levels. The approach there was basically to tell you just about everything. I suspect that half the reason it works so well is that the teachers embarass all the kids so much that just thinking about it makes them cringe. Full details, from how it all works on up. Blech. But clearly an effective blech.

The second was England. There were two lessons, each lasting one hour. In the first, some strange old lady showed us how to roll a condom over an erect cucumber. The second was spent colouring in diagrams of the reproductive system. England's teen pregnancy rate is the highest in the EU.

Having experienced both the best and worst sex education programs in Europe, I then applied my knowledge and had unprotected sex with my girlfriend. What does this show? There is no escaping human stupidity, no matter how hard one may try.

Originally posted by jwreck
Question Dave,

My main point is the fact that abstinance only teaching is just ridiculous.

I agree completely. Street racing is DUMB, but I know my son is going to. I just have to prepare him as best I can . . . and pray a lot. HOWEVER, I have to devise education that's not permissive. I can't say stuff like "Street racing is dumb and could result in bad things, BUT, if you're going to, there's a road down by Mr. Jones farm that the cops NEVER sit on . . . and get in the left lane . . . it hooks up better . . ."

It'll never work. Just like telling someone don't drink or smoke (BTW, around here I see A LOT less kids smoking).

See, in my area, I see WAY more . . . and I don't really trust numbers, you know? Maybe they're smoking more or maybe not. They ARE smoking more openly, though. Crap, you used to hide or something, but I see 12-14 year old kids walking around puffing like chimneys.

Also, most groups that want to preach abstinance only want to LIMIT access to condoms.

It's because they believe contraceptives mean permission. See, they want no sex for moral reasons and not always for the normal consequences. They believe that since kids don't have moral issues with sex, then offering them a condom at a school lunch line is like the school saying "oh, it's okay . . ." Honestly, I see their reasoning, and I don't want my son being offered condoms at school or whatever. They're too easy to get other places, and I don't want him believing that authority figures say it's okay to screw around. Limiting access is a great buzz phrase, but it's not entirely accurate. I mean, we could drop condoms by the million from airplanes, but NOT doing so is harldy limiting access. Honestly, do you think it's that difficult to obtain a condom?

These are the problems I have. I never intended to imply that high schoolers don't know where babies come from.

Cool. I just think that we can scream education till we're blue in the face, but until people start CARING, it doesn't matter.

Cool. I just think that we can scream education till we're blue in the face, but until people start CARING, it doesn't matter.That was my whole point to begin with. If the paraents took the time to raise their kids, it wouldn't matter what authority figures or peers said.

Originally posted by D Durden

Street racing is DUMB, but I know my son is going to. I just have to prepare him as best I can . . . and pray a lot. HOWEVER, I have to devise education that's not permissive. I can't say stuff like "Street racing is dumb and could result in bad things, BUT, if you're going to, there's a road down by Mr. Jones farm that the cops NEVER sit on . . . and get in the left lane . . . it hooks up better . . ."

Well, telling him things like that is like saying 'You shouldn't have sex at this point in your life...but if you're going to, lemme tell you about some of my favorite positions...'
However, saying "Street racing is dumb and could result in bad things, BUT, if you're going to, always wear your seatbelt, and don't do it if the weather is bad" is, I think, much more reasonable, and a lot closer to what I'm saying about what kids should be taught about sex..."Sex can be dangerous, and you shouldn't do it at this point in your life...but if you're going to, always wear a condom and choose your partners carefully." I don't think that sort of education is unreasonable....teaching kids techniques is not at all what I was getting at.

Originally posted by Momof6





We shall be instituting what is called courtship for our sons and daughter. Have you read Joshua Harris' book called "I Kissed Dating Goodbye?" It talks about this very thing......because for Christians marriage is a sacred vow taken before God and not to be entered into lightly. Sex is a metaphor for the covenant between Christ and humans. We become one..not in the carnal sense, but rather one in ideas and morals.....even as husband and wife become one in ideas, goals, and purpose.

I unfortunatly had parents who cared, but did not pay much attention. I started at 15, led by some nice Catholic boys down the street and off I went into 11 years of drugs, sex, and pain. I would spare my children the hurt I endured and instead lead them to a better way......a higher way. That is what love does.

And trust me.......you missed absolutly NOTHING. They make it look fun, but it isn't. They make it look like it brings happiness, but it doesn't. They make it look like it brings friends, but it doesn't. It brought me, sorrow and grief and an unplanned, illigetimate child, whom I loved nevertheless.

He is 25ish now and has made me a grandmother 3 times (the rotten kid!!) Not that i have seen them, as he is in the Navy on the East Coast and hopefully not in the Persian Gulf.

I hope you remember to thank your parents for sparing you the trials that I and many others experienced all to well. They did you a great service!

Becky
And I am sure you have a great son. He must be very lucky to have a mom like you.

Originally posted by Manu
Wow, good info guys!

Someone was saying make absintence an option. I agree 100%. We SHOULD encourage chilren to make well thoguht out choices regarding sex. We should encourage them to 'wait' until they have intercorse. But to tell them to not have sex until marriage and EXPECTING that to happen is ridiculous.
Except in the case of MY daughter. Now some day when she is of a proper age (like 40) I may find her a suitable husband....