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View Full Version : Are Catholics really an opressed minority?


Criminal
11-20-2001, 06:37 AM
I recently saw this interview with the guy who made the movie Dogma and he hit on a point that I had always wondered about. He talked about how his movie drew some heat from a Catholic group. He went on to say that this group concidered Catholics to be an opressed minority and he said that Catholics have not been opressed since the time of Constantine. I for one would take issue to that statement.

As a child growing up Catholic I had heard many stories from my mother who was also Catholic. She said that in the past being Catholic was a problem for many people. This was particularly true in the south, where she spent a great deal of time (she married my father in Georgia where they spent the first few years of their marriage). Catholics could not live in certain communities or were denied employment at certain jobs. In the south, Catholic churches were often defaced by the KKK. Priests were often harassed or threatened with violence.

Today there is little of this type of prejudice directed towards Catholics. In fact I see many Catholics in the mainstream of society. All the same I think we should examine the past.

One possible reason why Catholicism in the United States was disregarded by the Protestant majority was because of the opression remembered by early protestants in the early years of this country. Another was the stigma carried by this faith as an "immigrant" religion.

In the era of the 13 colonies, it was illegal in many regions for Catholics to practice their faith. This was a carry over from England where laws prohibited practice of the Catholic faith out of fear resulting from the reformation and counter reformation. Beginning with King William (William of Orange), Catholics could only practice their faith in their own homes. Catholics could not serve in government or the Army. In Ireland the laws were even more strict, forbidding Catholics from owning land. Because the majority of Irish were Catholic, this meant that the majority of people were landless and all land was owned by Protestant Landwoners, often absentee landowners from England.

The first Catholics to come to British North America were British settlers of Maryland. They were largely wealthy landowners. Other communities existed in colonies with liberal religious laws, such as Pensylvania. A catholic signed the declaration of Independence and some had minor roles in the early US government but mainly they were a small insignificant group.

In 1840s much of this changed with the arrival of Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Germany. The Irish in particular were poor and dispised by the native population. They settled in cities along the eastern seaboard and settled their own enclaves. Native groups started political organizations, most notibly the know nothin party to combat catholic immigration. Sighns reading "No Irish allowed" were a common sight in many stores.

The Civil War did put an end to much of the predjudice for the time being. Immigrants from Ireland and elsewhere served in the Union as well as the Confederate armies. Their service did gain them some recognition among their fellow americans.

In the post civil war era, other immigrant groups appeared on the US shores, Italian, Polish and other Catholic groups, as well as non catholics such as Greeks and Russian Jews. This led to more predjudice as well.

It was really not until the end of WW2 that the Catholic immigrant groups made it into the middle class in large numbers. The election of John F Kennedy, a Catholic, signified the new respectability of the Catholic people.

Today, Catholics are in the main stream of society but the church continues to face many challenges. THe church takes on a great many social causes, which are often unpopular. THey oppose the death penalty and war which angers many conservatives. At the same time the Catholic stance on abortion has drawn a lot of fire from more liberal groups.

Sometimes the Chruch has shown great courage, as was the case of many churchmen who hid political refugees from El Salvadore and Nicuragua.

I think that though Catholics are a minority, they have a new sense of respect among other groups. Today Jews Catholica and Moslems are in the process of being treated as equals with the Protestants.

ChaoticThoughts
11-20-2001, 03:09 PM
Catholics: the minority that oppresses itself. :p

acdavies
11-21-2001, 12:52 AM
I think the Catholic Church arrived at a crossroads in the 1970's, with the emergence of the liberation theology (http://education.yahoo.com/search/be?lb=t&p=url%3Al/liberation_theology) movement. The Church recognized the significance of expressing religious faith by helping the poor and working for political and social change. By doing so, the Church -- or at least its liberation theologists in these Latin American countries put themselves at odds with the regimes dominating the political landscape at the time.

- Andy

ChaoticThoughts
11-21-2001, 09:41 PM
another thing to point out-
When the priests were "praying" with the alter-boys, did the church hand over the child molesters? Nope, they bought the best lawers they could find. If you let in and defend the sickos, expect critics.

Snouter
11-21-2001, 10:19 PM
Catholism really didn't begin until Constantine adopted Christian ideas and merged them with his pagan religion and introduced a paganized Christian religion. Previously, some called it the Babylon Mystery Religion. Constanine tried to demonstrate his conversion and abolished the 300 years of persecution and death sentences inflicted on the original Christians. But his conversion is thought to be political since it was easier to join and since the persecutions were not deterring them.

The papal system is not biblical, but it is a political system to control people internationally. Several popes inflicted torture and deadly inquisitions on people who rejected the false calims of the popes.


This interesting book is on the subject is somewhat controversial:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/091693800X/qid=1006398472/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_14_3/102-5643870-5865701

Criminal
11-22-2001, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by ChaoticThoughts
another thing to point out-
When the priests were "praying" with the alter-boys, did the church hand over the child molesters? Nope, they bought the best lawers they could find. If you let in and defend the sickos, expect critics.
I think this is more talked about than it really exists. I know of several cases in which charges were made up against priests. THe mose notible phoney charge was when the Archbishop of Chicago, Joseph Bernadine, was charged with molesting a teenage seminarian. The young man who brought up the charges was a 20-ish man who was dying of aids. He later admitted that the charges were false. Cardinal Bernadine later forgave the man and was with his at the time he died.

There may in fact be cases in which priests took advantage of their positions to abuse young people, but the church has now taken a proactive approach to prevent this. To become a priest today, a seminarian must go through extensive psycological testing.

Most importantly, parents should be careful of anyone who is in the company of their children, whether they are priests, teachers or any other caregiver.

Criminal
11-22-2001, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by acdavies
I think the Catholic Church arrived at a crossroads in the 1970's, with the emergence of the liberation theology (http://education.yahoo.com/search/be?lb=t&p=url%3Al/liberation_theology) movement. The Church recognized the significance of expressing religious faith by helping the poor and working for political and social change. By doing so, the Church -- or at least its liberation theologists in these Latin American countries put themselves at odds with the regimes dominating the political landscape at the time.

- Andy
I am very much aware of this. In El Salvadore priests paid with their lives defending the poor of this country. The church has in fact went from a very conservative organization to a progressive group. I thought an excellent movie on this subject was Romero, staring Raul Julia. It was a first rate depiction of the ill fated Cardinal who was murdered by a right wing death squad.

Momof6
11-24-2001, 01:05 AM
Snouter,

Thanks for the link.......Dan and I read "The Two Babylons" years ago and could never find it again. Didn't realize it was still in print.....think I'll pick it up.



Criminal,

I think the reason Catholics for so long were treated with suspicion was the fact that thy held all of Europe in their grasp for a thousand years........remember the Dark Ages? The common man not allowed to read the Bible or be killed? They ruled through emperors and popes with a fist of iron and destroyed all who opposed them. Most of the popes and priests were horribly corrupt and full of pride and greed and self indulgence. Keeping hte masses of people ignorant of the Bible and Christ.

It is a false religion with a form of godliness, but denies the power of the gospel to change lives. Jesus said christians were not to call each other lord or to rule over each other, but rather to serve. This is the opposite of the Roman church, which rules from the pope down, with no discent. Well, maybe now, that you can actually have your own Bible and read it for yourselves.....novel idea that, eh? Any religion that puts a man between god and the people BESIDES Christ is false, as HE was and is the only go between.

There are Roman Catholics who happen to get saved, but just being catholic does not make it so, as I said to Aphasia elsewhere. Confirmation as a child, baptism at birth, and communion do not a Christian make. It is a personal revelation that one is a sinner in need of a savior, a turning to Christ in repentance and love, believing He is who He said he is, and believing on Him as Savior and Lord.

Anyway....that may be why folks had such problems with catholics.

Becky

Criminal
11-24-2001, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by Momof6
Snouter,

Thanks for the link.......Dan and I read "The Two Babylons" years ago and could never find it again. Didn't realize it was still in print.....think I'll pick it up.



Criminal,

I think the reason Catholics for so long were treated with suspicion was the fact that thy held all of Europe in their grasp for a thousand years........remember the Dark Ages? The common man not allowed to read the Bible or be killed? They ruled through emperors and popes with a fist of iron and destroyed all who opposed them. Most of the popes and priests were horribly corrupt and full of pride and greed and self indulgence. Keeping hte masses of people ignorant of the Bible and Christ.

It is a false religion with a form of godliness, but denies the power of the gospel to change lives. Jesus said christians were not to call each other lord or to rule over each other, but rather to serve. This is the opposite of the Roman church, which rules from the pope down, with no discent. Well, maybe now, that you can actually have your own Bible and read it for yourselves.....novel idea that, eh? Any religion that puts a man between god and the people BESIDES Christ is false, as HE was and is the only go between.

There are Roman Catholics who happen to get saved, but just being catholic does not make it so, as I said to Aphasia elsewhere. Confirmation as a child, baptism at birth, and communion do not a Christian make. It is a personal revelation that one is a sinner in need of a savior, a turning to Christ in repentance and love, believing He is who He said he is, and believing on Him as Savior and Lord.

Anyway....that may be why folks had such problems with catholics.

Becky

I hardly think that anyone with an open mind will dispute that the the Catholic Clergy had abused their power in the past. We all know about the Spanish Inquisition, Tomas Torquamunda, the trials and burnings of known or suspected heritics, the corruption of the Papal buracracy, and so on and so forth. I do not dispute any of this. What I do think is if you look at the church today you would see that it is not what it used to be. I just read a news story in which Pope John Paul II condemned the previous practice of forcefully adopting aboriginal children against their parents wishes. He also spoke out against sexual abuse of women and children by members of the clergy.

I think that all powerful institutions have certain evils in their past. This was true of the Protestant rulers of Ireland who enslaved and starved their Catholic subjects. It is true of the Protestent authorities of Massachusetts who tried and hanged innocent people suspected of witchcraft. It is true of Orthodox priests in Russia who harrassed and murdered Jews in the Czarist era. It is true of Muslams, Jews, Hindus or Budist groups as well. Any place where there is an all powerful religious body opressing members of other faiths there is evil.

I think people of all faiths need to get beyond the bigotry and intolerance and work towards peace and justice.

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