There is a debate which is raging throughout the world on whether free speech should inclued such topics as Holocost denial. At the focus point of one such battle is Ernst Zundel, a Canadian who is fighting his own government for the right to speak about this subject. I have posted two seperate articles on this case. In debating this case I do not intend to speak ether way on the issue but will alow you the debater to give your opinion. Should free speech extend to Mr. Zundel?

http://www.web.net/~ara/documents/zunf.htm

Ernst Zundel's Internet Hate Site Unlawful: TribunalOttawa - January 18, 2002 - The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal today delivered a landmark ruling in the first-ever human rights complaint involving an Internet hate site. Ernst Zundel, who was found to have effective control of the site, contravened section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act."Hate messaging and propaganda have no place in Canadian society," noted the Chief Commissioner of the Canadian Human Rights Commission, Michelle Falardeau-Ramsay. "The Tribunal has confirmed that this Internet activity is against the law and Canadians will not tolerate it," she continued."As a tool of mass communication, the Internet has a tremendous impact on our daily lives," noted Falardeau-Ramsay. "We now know that the Internet is not a 'lawless zone,' and cannot be used to promote hate," she went on. "This is all the more important in light of the tensions that have emerged since last September's terrorist activity," she concluded.In its ruling, the Tribunal concluded that the site created conditions that allow hatred to flourish. In its view, the "... tone and expression of these messages is so malevolent in its depiction of Jews, that we find them to be hate messages within the meaning of the Act." As for the effect of the Act to limit freedom of speech, the Tribunal went on to note that "...the benefit continues to outweigh any deleterious effects on the Respondent's freedom of expression."Two complaints were filed with the Commission in 1996, one by the Toronto Mayor's Committee on Community and Race Relations, and a second one by Sabina Citron. Both complainants alleged that material on Mr. Zundel's Website could expose Jews to hatred or contempt.Within four months, the Commission referred these precedent-setting complaints to the Tribunal for review. But the case has been fraught with substantial delays caused by eight motions and various appeals by the respondent. Consequently, more than 50 days of hearings were held over the next four years, and ended when the Tribunal heard closing arguments in February 2001.
For more information:
Catherine Barratt
Media and External Relations
(613) 943-9119

http://www.web.net/~ara/documents/zunf.htm


V. Ernst Zundel -- Guru of Hate

In addition to the many local groups which form and fall apart, Toronto is home to a key player in the international nazi movement, Ernst Zundel. Zundel immigrated to Canada from Germany in 1958 and eventually settled in Toronto at 206 Carlton (also known as the condom house), which he has turned into a virtual fortress.
From his hatequarters Zundel runs Samisdat Publishing, one of the largest nazi propoganda operations in the world. Author and distributor of pamphlets like "The Hitler We Loved And Why" and "Did Six Million Really Die?", Zundel also produces shortwave radio and satellite TV shows for broadcast throughout Europe and in North America. His web-page is also run out 206 Carlton, as well as the Canadian Patriots Network bulletin board, all operated by Marc Lemire.
Zundel is especially important in Germany, where it is harder to obtain illegal fascist publications. Fascists there credit him for the revival of nazi movements, which has resulted in the worst xenophobic violence in Europe since the Second World War.
Zundel's main obsession is denying the Holocaust -- in order to clear the ground for broad acceptance of fascist ideology. He describes himself as a "truthmonger", a "white civil rights activist" and even "the white Martin Luther King"! Since the 1980s Ernie has been in and out of the courts, primarily because of one woman, a Holocaust survivor, who has charged him with various offenses. Most recently (November 95) she brought charges of conspiring to promote hatred and criminal libel against Zundel. None of the previous cases have been successful, although they have taken valuable time and resources from him, and kept the pressure on.
1995 also saw other kinds of pressure on Zundel, including an arson attack on his bunker in May, as well as a mailbomb. Damage was considerable and kept Ernie busy all summer renovating. 206 Carlton no longer looks like a Victorian home -- it,s undeniably an office and bunker.

1. Holocaust denial is not implcitly hateful or racist, though I am unaware of his other actions
2. Yes, he should be allowed free speech.

Holocaust supporters(jewsand lemming gentiles) are far more hateful and violent than people who question the supposed facts of the holocaust.

Even jews had to eventually admit that it wasn't 6 million and there were no lamp shades and soap. They hated to give up even a small portion of their propaganda. The holocaust industry just keeps laying golden eggs for them. Isn't there another new jew produced holocaust movie coming out soon? Or is that one already out? I forget. There are so many. I stopped watching somewhere before Swindler's Cist.

Originally posted by Criminal

http://www.web.net/~ara/documents/zunf.htm

Ernst Zundel's Internet Hate Site Unlawful: TribunalOttawa - January 18, 2002 - The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal today delivered a landmark ruling in the first-ever human rights complaint involving an Internet hate site. Ernst Zundel, who was found to have effective control of the site, contravened section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act."Hate messaging and propaganda have no place in Canadian society," noted the Chief Commissioner of the Canadian Human Rights Commission, Michelle Falardeau-Ramsay. "The Tribunal has confirmed that this Internet activity is against the law and Canadians will not tolerate it," she continued."As a tool of mass communication, the Internet has a tremendous impact on our daily lives," noted Falardeau-Ramsay. "We now know that the Internet is not a 'lawless zone,' and cannot be used to promote hate," she went on. "This is all the more important in light of the tensions that have emerged since last September's terrorist activity," she concluded.In its ruling, the Tribunal concluded that the site created conditions that allow hatred to flourish. In its view, the "... tone and expression of these messages is so malevolent in its depiction of Jews, that we find them to be hate messages within the meaning of the Act."

Are all Computers physially located in Canada banned from accessing www.zundelsite.org ?

The site is still up and running, as far as I can tell. What exactly did this accomplish?

Originally posted by Criminal
As for the effect of the Act to limit freedom of speech, the Tribunal went on to note that "...the benefit continues to outweigh any deleterious effects on the Respondent's freedom of expression."

Okay, so they're using fascist tactics against "fascists." When will the book burnings start? It's the next logical step.

Originally posted by Criminal
http://www.web.net/~ara/documents/zunf.htm
[quote]
Zundel is especially important in Germany, where it is harder to obtain illegal fascist publications. Fascists there credit him for the revival of nazi movements, which has resulted in the worst xenophobic violence in Europe since the Second World War.
Zundel's main obsession is denying the Holocaust -- in order to clear the ground for broad acceptance of fascist ideology. He describes himself as a "truthmonger", a "white civil rights activist" and even "the white Martin Luther King"! Since the 1980s Ernie has been in and out of the courts, primarily because of one woman, a Holocaust survivor, who has charged him with various offenses. Most recently (November 95) she brought charges of conspiring to promote hatred and criminal libel against Zundel. None of the previous cases have been successful, although they have taken valuable time and resources from him, and kept the pressure on.

1995 also saw other kinds of pressure on Zundel, including an arson attack on his bunker in May, as well as a mailbomb. Damage was considerable and kept Ernie busy all summer renovating. 206 Carlton no longer looks like a Victorian home -- it,s undeniably an office and bunker.

Oh, okay. So, let's turn a buffoon into a potential martyr. I recently posted some links about Zundel, Hitler and UFOs :rolleyes: , I'll repost 'em if you can't find 'em. They're pretty funny, IMO. The man is an idiot. He shouldn't get censored, he should be held up as a poster child of how moronic holocaust deniers are.

Like that KKK member, Daniel Carver, who comes on Howard Stern occassionally. Too funny.

Originally posted by MorphicOutFielder
Holocaust supporters(jewsand lemming gentiles) are far more hateful and violent than people who question the supposed facts of the holocaust.


Right...as we can tell from the vitrol of your posts, as a Holocaust Denier.

Its WE who are hateful. :rolleyes:


Even jews had to eventually admit that it wasn't 6 million


Whoa...how many was it? Are you sure you know what you're talking about?


and there were no lamp shades


COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS

SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Section of Pathology
25 May 1945

SUBJECT: Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides

TO: COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U.S. Army)

(ATTN: JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)

1. There were submitted to this laboratory section for
examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
81 T.J.A.

[Page 124]

2. The description follows:

GROSS: Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.

PIECE A: Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.

PIECE B: Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass. To the right of this mass
is a man's head.

PIECE C: Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base. The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm. The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area. These are 16
cm. Apart. From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part. A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin. To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.

MICROSCOPIC: The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants. Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.

3. Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
specimens are tattooed human skin.

For the Commanding Officer,

[signed] REUBEN CARES
Ruben Cares
Major M.C., Chief of pathology



You know whats interesting Morphic? There was never a debate, by either the Prosecution or the DEFENSE, if the skin was human. The debate was whether it was taken from already dead corpses, or if people were killed for it. The other debate was who it belonged to.

Your only argument is that Henry Clay, 30 years later, made a silly remark without basis.


and soap.


No one ever said the turning of people into soap was a common act in the Holocaust. Thats nonsense.


They hated to give up even a small portion of their propaganda.


Its my job to inform you that you're crazy.

Originally posted by Sulla the Dictator



Its my job to inform you that you're crazy.

It is the fact that I am not, and you know it, that bothers you. Hah hah hah hah.

Dictators have never liked me. I wonder why that is?

Some quotes for you. Hey! I'm quoting jews here. If there is vitrol it is theirs, not mine. Enjoy.


When we sink, we become a revolutionary proletariat, the subordinate officers of all revolutionary parties; at the same time, when we rise, there rises also our terrible power of the purse.’
Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State


‘Of course you do resent us Jews. The thing that intruiges me about this anti-Jewish business, however, is your total lack of grit. You seem to be suffering from self-consciousness horribly. It is not as if you were amateurs - you have been at it for over fifteen centuries. You resent us, but cannot clearly say why.
‘We are, if you are to be believed, a menace to your racial integrity. We shirk our patriotic duty in wartime, because we are pacifists by nature and tradition.

‘You accuse us of stirring up revolution in Moscow. Suppose we admit the charge, what of it?

‘Take the three principal revolutions in modern times - the French, American and Russian. What are they but the triumph of the Jewish idea of social, political and economic justice? And the end is still a long way off. We still dominate you.

‘You make much noise and fury about the undue Jewish influence in your theaters and movie palaces. Granted, your complaint is well-founded. But what is that compared with our staggering influence in your churches, your schools, your laws and your government, and the very thoughts you think?

‘You believe The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. But what is that beside the unquestionable and historic conspiracy we have carried out, and which we have never denied because you have never had the courage to charge us with it?

‘You call use subverters, agitators, revolution-mongers. It is the truth - and I cower at your discovery.

‘You have not begun to appreciate the real depth of our guilt. We have taken your natural world, your ideals, your destiny, and played havoc with them. We are at the bottom not merely of the latest war, but nearly all your wars. We have brought discord and confusion and frustration into your personal and public life. We are still doing it. We did it solely with the irresistible might of our spirit, with ideas and propaganda.

‘If we were in your place, we should dislike you more cordially than you do us. But we should make no bones about telling you why. You go about whispering terrifyingly about the hand of the Jew in this and that. It makes us quake. We are conscious of the injury we did when we imposed upon you our alien faith and traditions. And then you specify and talk vaguely of Jewish financiers and Jewish motion picture promoters, and our terror dissolves in laughter. The gentiles, we see with relief, will never know the real blackness of our crimes.

Can you wonder that we Jews have always taken your anti-Semites rather lightly, as long as they did not resort to violence?’

'The Real Case Against the Jews,' Marcus Eli Ravage, Century magazine, January 1928. Taken from 'Jews on the Jewish Question' in Antizion: A Survey of Commentary on Organized Jewry by Leading Personalities Through the Ages, compiled and annotated by William Grimstad, Noontide Press, PO Box 1248, Torrance, CA 90505, USA, 1976. ISBN 0-911038-20-5.




‘We shall drive the Christians into war by exploiting their national vanity and stupidity. They will then massacre each other, thus giving room for our own people.’ Rabbi Reichorn in Le Contemporain, July 1, 1880



2. Loss of Jewish Worker Caste
Note that the Jews lost their peasantry or worker caste around 1000 AD. This is documented by Shahak in Jewish History, Jewish Religion, pp. 52-53 and is clearly evident today. Shahak is unable to explain how this change in Jewish social structure came about, but it is hypothesized that the evolution of the following traits is involved:

Love of being above someone (e.g. gloating);
Abhorrence of being looked down upon.
Jews appear to be capable of getting themselves appointed to government positions, elected onto academic editorial committees etc., without any formal role or qualifications.


Example: The Jews in Germany

After the Great War (1914-18) had come to an end, the distress prevalent in Eastern Europe induced large numbers of those of Jewish race to cross the German frontiers where a Herr Badt - himself a Jew - managed to obtain an official position authorising him to control all matters relative to immigration and naturalisation. He saw to it that those sharing his race secured easy access to Germany. A few statistics may be helpful to show the extent to which these non-Germans through mutual assistance gradually succeeded in spreading their influence upon important professions and in various allied domains. In reading these statistics it is important to remember that those of Jewish race formed just 1% of the population.

Jewish University Teachers: Berlin: Medicine 45%; Breslau: Arts 25%, Medecine 45%, Law 48%; Gottingen: Mathematics 34%, Medecine 34%, Arts 40%, Law 47%; Konigsberg: Arts 7%, Law 14%, Medecine 25%.

Lawyers (1928): Dortmund 29%; Hamburg 25%, Stuttgart 26%, Dusseldorf 33%, Karlsruhe 36%, Beuthen 60%, Frankfurt 64%, Stettin 36%.

Lawyers (1933): Berlin 55%, Berlin Chamber of Attorneys 66%, Breslau 67%.

Medical Practitioners (1928): Wiesbaden 20%, Karlsruhe 26%, Cologne 27%, Mainz 30%, Gotha 31%, Beuthen 36% Berlin 52%. Berlin Hospitals: Moabit 56%, Friedrichshain 63%, Neukolln 67%.

The Stock Exchange. Committees on the Berlin Stock Exchange: Stocks and Shares 69%, Metal Exchange 83%, Produce Exchange 75%, Futures 83%, Administration 80%. Official List 87%. In 1928 it was revealed that just 15 Jews between them had occupied 718 board positions and of leading positions in industry there were ten Jews to every five non-Jews.

Leading Positions in Commerce: Berlin 49.4%, Frankfurt 48.9%, Cologne 49.6%, Breslau 57.1%.

Employed as Workers: Berlin 2.4%, Frankfurt 1.9%, Cologne 2.9%, Breslau 1.8%.

From Michael Walsh, Witness to History, Historical Review Press 1996



‘The Jew alone regards his race as superior to humanity, and looks forward not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them all and to its final ascendancy under the leadership of a tribal Messiah.’ Goldwin Smith, Professor of Modern History, Oxford University, in Nineteenth Century, October 1881

Originally posted by MorphicOutFielder
It is the fact that I am not, and you know it, that bothers you.


It sure seems like you are.


Dictators have never liked me. I wonder why that is?


Interact with the Roman variety often?


Some quotes for you. Hey! I'm quoting jews here. If there is vitrol it is theirs, not mine. Enjoy.


Well, I'm pretty sure your a white supremacist. As such, you should be familiar with the HORDE of whites who have nothing positive to say about their own race. By asking us to take the self-loathing of these Jews into consideration, I'm assuming you find the self-loathing of extreme liberal whites to be equally as valid. Do I need to post those opinions? I'm pretty sure I can come up with 10 times the amount you posted from the Hollywood Community alone.

Originally posted by Sulla the Dictator


It sure seems like you are.

Maybe it is you who are crazy. That would explain it. Do you meet a lot of crazy people?



Interact with the Roman variety often?

I like Norse Volk. I'm lactose tolerant.



Well, I'm pretty sure your a white supremacist. As such, you should be familiar with the HORDE of whites who have nothing positive to say about their own race. By asking us to take the self-loathing of these Jews into consideration, I'm assuming you find the self-loathing of extreme liberal whites to be equally as valid. Do I need to post those opinions? I'm pretty sure I can come up with 10 times the amount you posted from the Hollywood Community alone.

White separatist. Although lately I seem to be weakening a little in regards to some people. Mark's eugenics discussions are increasingly inviting.

You should easily be able come up with a thousand times as many. An honest jew is a very rare find. I don't belive that Ben Freedman and Israel Shraak are Hollywood variety jews. I could post some of their revelations. I deeply appreciate every honest person that I stumble across. Self hating white people are as common as bird droppings. It seems that no race devalues itself as much as the white race. People do watch too much television. Who creates that television programming? Refresh my memory.

Why is "holocaust denial" illegal in many Western countries?

Because the holocaust is a very powerful tool for the Jews. It forms the basis of the 'Jews as victims' role that they, as a religious and biological entity, now portray to the general public. Any slander of Jews whatsoever is immediately rebuked as "anti-semitism" or "nazism."

The Jews as a group profit from the holocaust, in terms of actual reparations they receive, and the image of them that it portrays. Jews are the ultimate victims.

I don't think its fair to disallow questioning of the "holocaust." Denying it completely is one thing, but any attempt whatsoever to investigate the numbers killed or morality of what happened to the Jews in Europe between 1933 and 1945 is immediately rubbished by the media (which, one has to understand, is completely controlled by the Jews).

Did the "holocaust" happen? Depends on what you call "holocaust."

Originally posted by Grand_Inquisitor
Why is "holocaust denial" illegal in many Western countries?

Because the holocaust is a very powerful tool for the Jews. It forms the basis of the 'Jews as victims' role that they, as a religious and biological entity, now portray to the general public. Any slander of Jews whatsoever is immediately rebuked as "anti-semitism" or "nazism."

The Jews as a group profit from the holocaust, in terms of actual reparations they receive, and the image of them that it portrays. Jews are the ultimate victims.

I don't think its fair to disallow questioning of the "holocaust." Denying it completely is one thing, but any attempt whatsoever to investigate the numbers killed or morality of what happened to the Jews in Europe between 1933 and 1945 is immediately rubbished by the media (which, one has to understand, is completely controlled by the Jews).

Did the "holocaust" happen? Depends on what you call "holocaust."
It is not illegal in the US. I personally think there is too much evidence to deny that it did not happen (from both survivors and people doing the killing) but I also believe people should have the right to say whatever they want on the matter.

Its illegal in many countries. It counts as "incitement to racial hatred" where I live. Absurd.

Of course it happened, but the fact that people can't even rationally discuss it, appears, to me, to mean that there is something to hide.

Originally posted by Grand_Inquisitor
Why is "holocaust denial" illegal in many Western countries?


Why don't white supremacists move to Europe? Because Europe, while striving to be a liberal society, is not really a free one. Ironically, the same type of impulse to stifle Holocaust Denial and bigotry (Well intentioned) is the same type of European impulse which allowed the event in the first place.

Our way is better. Holocaust deniers are allowed to say their piece here in the US, and are debunked and discredited and laughed at.


Because the holocaust is a very powerful tool for the Jews.


ROFL How ABSURD. There is no place in the Caucasian world where Israel is in lower favor than Europe, yet Europe is the place with laws against Holocaust Denial. Anti-Semites, such as yourself, often claim that the US is in thrall to 'the Jews', yet your bigotry and Holocaust denial are tolerated.

Interesting, isn't it? Kind of torpedos what you attempt to insinuate.


Any slander of Jews whatsoever is immediately rebuked as "anti-semitism" or "nazism."


ROFL

5 entries found for slander.
slan·der ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slndr)
n.
Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
----------------------------

3 entries found for Anti-Semitism.
an·ti-Sem·i·tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.


So you're complaining because when you make a false and malicious statement injurious to a Jewish person's reputation, it bothers you to be called someone with hostility towards Jews? ROFL


The Jews as a group profit from the holocaust


Certainly not the 6 million dead ones, and their suffering families. :rolleyes:


I don't think its fair to disallow questioning of the "holocaust." Denying it completely is one thing, but any attempt whatsoever to investigate the numbers killed or morality of what happened to the Jews in Europe between 1933 and 1945 is immediately rubbished by the media


Are you saying that you should be taken SERIOUSLY by attempting to claim the Holocaust was moral?


(which, one has to understand, is completely controlled by the Jews).


Ridiculous. But regardless, YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. If you say, "6 million Jews didn't die, and if they did they deserve it", Steven Spielburg has EVERY RIGHT to call you an idiot and disprove those assertions. Freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom from speech.


Did the "holocaust" happen? Depends on what you call "holocaust."

You know EXACTLY what is meant by the word Holocaust, so why don't you tell us? Did it happen?

Our way is better.

Probably.

ROFL How ABSURD.

Any critique of Jewish actions as a whole is nowadays, usually, immmediately rebuked with accusations of wishing to exterminate them. It is fine, even accepted or congratulated, to portray all Germans as Nazis where I live. The pro-Jewish bias of the media is immense. For example, Israeli foreign policy is very rarely objectively analysed. The Holocaust has provided them with the perfect excuse to disallow any critique of them as a whole.

Anti-Semites, such as yourself

I don't consider myself an Anti-Semite. "Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism." I am not hostile or prejudiced against Jews or Judaism. I have many Jewish friends, I have absolutely nothing against the Jews as people. My problem with the Jews is their control of other countries and peoples for their own ends. I don't want to live in a country where they are telling we what to think.

slander

OK, "slander" was not the right word to use. How about critique? Any critique of Jews is immediately rebuked as "anti-semitism" or "nazism."

Certainly not the 6 million dead ones, and their suffering families.

Why is it illegal to question the number of Jews that died? I agree that the death of so many Jews from 1933-45 was indeed tragic.

Are you saying that you should be taken SERIOUSLY by attempting to claim the Holocaust was moral?

No, what I meant by this statement was the fact that many 'crimes' against Jews commited by the Germans were in fact crimes of passion, not procedure.

Ridiculous.

The mainstream Western media is pretty much owned by Jews.

You know EXACTLY what is meant by the word Holocaust, so why don't you tell us? Did it happen?

In a word, yes.

Originally posted by Grand_Inquisitor


Probably.


Certainly.


Any critique of Jewish actions as a whole is nowadays, usually, immmediately rebuked with accusations of wishing to exterminate them.


When you attempt to justify their extermination, or attempt to water down what happened to them in order to legitimize the movement which DOES want to exterminate them, then it is a fair criticism. No one says that someone who disagrees with Israeli policy is an Anti-Semite. But when you firebomb a Synagogue or desecrate the gravestones of dead Jews with swastikas yes, you are an Anti-Semite.


It is fine, even accepted or congratulated, to portray all Germans as Nazis where I live.


You live in a stupid place, or have a simplistic view of the argument. I don't know anyone who does that here in the US, and we're as Anti-Nazi as they come.


The pro-Jewish bias of the media is immense. For example, Israeli foreign policy is very rarely objectively analysed.


Sure it is. In Europe, the media is deffinatly Anti-Israel.


The Holocaust has provided them with the perfect excuse to disallow any critique of them as a whole.


You keep saying this without proving it or supporting it with facts. Repitition does not make something true.



I don't consider myself an Anti-Semite. "Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism."

I am not hostile or prejudiced against Jews or Judaism.


You sure seem to be.


I have many Jewish friends, I have absolutely nothing against the Jews as people.


....Even though you say they control virtually everything, and are RUINING the Western World with multiculturalism and interracial dating? :rolleyes:


My problem with the Jews is their control of other countries and peoples for their own ends.


Note the contradictory tone of this quote with the last one.



OK, "slander" was not the right word to use. How about critique? Any critique of Jews is immediately rebuked as "anti-semitism" or "nazism."


It is slander to claim Jews control 'other countries' and are ruining them. It IS Anti-Semitic and it IS the heart of Nazi ideology. It seems you have an objection to someone calling a spade a spade.


Why is it illegal to question the number of Jews that died? I agree that the death of so many Jews from 1933-45 was indeed tragic.


It isn't illegal here. Like I said, though Europe may be a LIBERAL Continent, it isn't really a free one.

Which place is more in the control of Jews, the US or Europe?


No, what I meant by this statement was the fact that many 'crimes' against Jews commited by the Germans were in fact crimes of passion, not procedure.


You mean the methodical tracking of Jews, the systematic act of rounding them up, and the casual execution of them in the millions? Thats a crime of passion, not procedure? Do you want REPORTS of executions? How many do you want?

Why do you say 'crimes'? Is it NOT a crime to murder millions of people? Or is it not a crime as long as they're Jews?

I popped into to see what was going on and who should I spy but Sulla, up to his old tricks and repeating the same things that he said before, namely:

You know whats interesting Morphic? There was never a debate, by either the Prosecution or the DEFENSE, if the skin was human. The debate was whether it was taken from already dead corpses, or if people were killed for it. The other debate was who it belonged to.

However, when I asked him before where he found the trial transcripts or other evidence that enabled him to make this statement, he deferred. I wonder if it's turned up?

Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6

[Page 123]

COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS

SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Section of Pathology
25 May 1945

SUBJECT: Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides

TO: COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U.S. Army)

(ATTN: JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)

1. There were submitted to this laboratory section for
examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
81 T.J.A.

[Page 124]

2. The description follows:

GROSS: Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.

PIECE A: Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.

PIECE B: Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass. To the right of this mass
is a man's head.

PIECE C: Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base. The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm. The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area. These are 16
cm. Apart. From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part. A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin. To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.

MICROSCOPIC: The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants. Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.

3. Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
specimens are tattooed human skin.

For the Commanding Officer,

[signed] REUBEN CARES
Ruben Cares
Major M.C., Chief of pathology

Silly me, Sulla already posted this above. Chris should learn to read.

Sulla's already posted that. What I want to see is where he gets the claim that the defense never disputed that it was human skin.

Potyondi should learn to read.

But when you firebomb a Synagogue or desecrate the gravestones of dead Jews with swastikas yes, you are an Anti-Semite.

Of course. That kind of thing is just plain stupid.

You live in a stupid place

I do indeed. The British have a very "two-world-wars-and-one-world-cup" mentality.

....Even though you say they control virtually everything, and are RUINING the Western World with multiculturalism and interracial dating?

It doesn't mean I can't be friends with Jews on a personal level. Friendship transcends these boundaries, and anyway, probably only a fraction of Jews do what I think is so wrong.

It is slander to claim Jews control 'other countries' and are ruining them. It IS Anti-Semitic and it IS the heart of Nazi ideology. It seems you have an objection to someone calling a spade a spade.

Them "ruining" countries is obviously my subjective opinion. If you think homosexuality and race-mixing is a good thing, then that's your cup of tea. Not mine.

Sure it is. In Europe, the media is deffinatly Anti-Israel.

Not where I turn on the TV.

Which place is more in the control of Jews, the US or Europe?

Distinguishing between the two is becoming harder every day.

Why do you say 'crimes'? Is it NOT a crime to murder millions of people? Or is it not a crime as long as they're Jews?

The very nature of 'crime' is subjective. I personally think the Holocaust was a crime, but there are others that do not.

Also, what about Stalin's purges? He probably killed more men than Hitler, but his victims are not given as much recognition as the Jews.

Do you want REPORTS of executions?

I don't. What I meant by my statement is that the Holocaust was not as planned as some try to make out. Many 'crimes' were not because of policy. This does not, however, excuse them, I know.

Originally posted by Chris
I popped into to see what was going on and who should I spy but Sulla, up to his old tricks and repeating the same things that he said before, namely:


And for the gallery, this was a debate of Holocaust Denial Chris eventually abandoned. :D



However, when I asked him before where he found the trial transcripts


You have to ORDER the Dachau Tribunal's transcripts from the Library of Congress.


or other evidence that enabled him to make this statement, he deferred. I wonder if it's turned up?

Thats the facts as I've read them in every book relating to Buchenwald. Can you show me a statement where Frau Koch denies the material of the ornaments?

(putting on my teachers voice)
Now Chris and Potyandi: If ether of you have something to contribute to the discussion than please do so. Otherwise please do not criticize eachother.

Please keep the discussion civil.

Thank you

I see, so you've ordered the transcripts have you? I'm sure you won't mind scanning the relevant parts and posting here. I have read books on Buchenwald which state no such thing - you are the one making the claim therefore you should provide some. I don't know whether what you say the defense did is true or not.


And for the gallery, the debate was not abandoned by me - as Sulla well knows. I was looking for information about a certain Moishe Peer, who survived six gassings, however when I found the relevant information the thread had been deleted by the friendly hacker.

Originally posted by Sulla the Dictator


Right...as we can tell from the vitrol of your posts, as a Holocaust Denier.

Its WE who are hateful. :rolleyes:



Whoa...how many was it? Are you sure you know what you're talking about?



COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS

SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Section of Pathology
25 May 1945

SUBJECT: Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides

TO: COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U.S. Army)

(ATTN: JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)

1. There were submitted to this laboratory section for
examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
81 T.J.A.

[Page 124]

2. The description follows:

GROSS: Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.

PIECE A: Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.

PIECE B: Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass. To the right of this mass
is a man's head.

PIECE C: Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base. The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm. The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area. These are 16
cm. Apart. From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part. A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin. To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.

MICROSCOPIC: The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants. Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.

3. Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
specimens are tattooed human skin.

For the Commanding Officer,

[signed] REUBEN CARES
Ruben Cares
Major M.C., Chief of pathology



You know whats interesting Morphic? There was never a debate, by either the Prosecution or the DEFENSE, if the skin was human. The debate was whether it was taken from already dead corpses, or if people were killed for it. The other debate was who it belonged to.

Your only argument is that Henry Clay, 30 years later, made a silly remark without basis.



No one ever said the turning of people into soap was a common act in the Holocaust. Thats nonsense.



Its my job to inform you that you're crazy.

Cann you tell me why it should be of interest to the modern man. Why are you posting such disturbing crap?:confused:

Originally posted by Le Chevalier


Cann you tell me why it should be of interest to the modern man. Why are you posting such disturbing crap?:confused:

We must understand history to deal with the present and the future. Those with the most to lose, most wish history to be undisturbed.

Originally posted by MorphicOutFielder
Those with the most to lose, most wish history to be undisturbed.

We all lose much, why should the Jews be something special?

Originally posted by Le Chevalier


Cann you tell me why it should be of interest to the modern man. Why are you posting such disturbing crap?:confused:
Can we please have a little more maturity here. Not to single you out but please can we keep the debate civil. If Morphic's post is off topic just say so.

Thank you

Hmmmm...

Seems like Sulla's the one who's abandoned this argument.

Originally posted by Chris
Hmmmm...

Seems like Sulla's the one who's abandoned this argument.

Is that the case? Lets take a look, since this has become relevant.
It sure looked to me like we were done here.


I see, so you've ordered the transcripts have you?


Ok, so you cannot show us Koch's defense, you have no knowledge about it, and you do not trust books I've read which have stated what I have said. What books do you have that claim the contrary?


I'm sure you won't mind scanning the relevant parts and posting here.


I don't have the money or time to find and order the transcripts of the Dachau trial, READ the transcripts, then scan them for you to say, "The trial was rigged" or the "Documents have been altered". You have no evidence to support your opinion, if you would like, I can refer you to books which support me.


I have read books on Buchenwald which state no such thing -


LOL Have you read books on Buchenwald that STATE Koch's defense?


you are the one making the claim therefore you should provide some.


"It has never been questioned, not even by Frau Koch or her lawyers, whether or not human-skin lampshades were made at Buchenwald. The only question has been whether Koch herself actually participated in their manufacture. This is an important point. Three samples of such artifacts were placed into evidence, and were also viewed by the Senate subcommittee.

Two witnesses testified that they themselves had seen Frau Koch in possession of human-skin artifacts. Clay may not have been aware of these witnesses, because he said that the testimony regarding the "most serious charges" was entirely hearsay. Whether that referred to the human-skin charges is unknown. It would seem likely that the charges for murder would be the "most serious charges.""

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/clay-koch-03.html

Do you have a contradicting source?


I don't know whether what you say the defense did is true or not.


It is a strange thing to claim victory when someone, out of mercy I might add, ignored the fact that you are arguing, AS YOU YOURSELF ADMITT HERE, out of ignorance.


And for the gallery, the debate was not abandoned by me - as Sulla well knows. I was looking for information about a certain Moishe Peer, who survived six gassings, however when I found the relevant information the thread had been deleted by the friendly hacker.


The thing he omits is that there was a month inbetween his last reply (And my rebuttal) and the deletion of the thread. He started a new thread when I mentioned the earlier debate.

The thing he omits is that there was a month inbetween his last reply (And my rebuttal) and the deletion of the thread. He started a new thread when I mentioned the earlier debate.

It was hardly a rebuttal. As I recall it was "what was his name?". It took many Google searches like "+gassed +six +Jewish" to find any information. And it was not a month, more like 4 days for the thread to be deleted. I posted the new thread within a week of the last post on the original thread. And I started the new thread without Sulla mentioning the earlier debate, at least not in any threads that I read.

Tell me Sulla, once I had discovered the name, why would I delay posting it until you mentioned it again?

As for your points above, I have told you that I am no longer interested in the pointless mental masturbation of debating the holocaust hundreds of times. I could argue but I can no longer be buggered arguing with you yet again only to find at the end that no ones mind has been changed about anything.

Originally posted by Chris


It was hardly a rebuttal. As I recall it was "what was his name?". It took many Google searches like "+gassed +six +Jewish" to find any information. And it was not a month, more like 4 days for the thread to be deleted. I posted the new thread within a week of the last post on the original thread. And I started the new thread without Sulla mentioning the earlier debate, at least not in any threads that I read.


LOL Well it is an astonishing coincidence then, that after I challenged yet another Anti-Semitic slur made by you referring to the debate you had abandoned, a new thread was created BY you. :rolleyes:


Tell me Sulla, once I had discovered the name, why would I delay posting it until you mentioned it again?


Maybe because you recognized that it was utterly irrelevant for the reasons I gave you when you DID post it. I don't agree with the timeline you gave, however. I remember it being a lot longer than a week.


As for your points above, I have told you that I am no longer interested in the pointless mental masturbation of debating the holocaust hundreds of times.


Tsk tsk, I wouldn't advise you to restart debates you couldn't handle, in that case. As I said, I was willing to overlook the fact that your entire post was based in ignorance YOU ADMITTED regarding a subject, which is why it was pointless to reply to. You asked for a reply, you got one, and now you're attempting to claim you can't be 'bothered' to debate the issues in question.

Originally posted by Sulla the Dictator

LOL Well it is an astonishing coincidence then, that after I challenged yet another Anti-Semitic slur made by you referring to the debate you had abandoned, a new thread was created BY you. :rolleyes:


I have never seen any reference to the "Moishe Peer" debate outside of 3 threads. Let's call them phora1, phora2 and somethingawful1. Phora1 was deleted without a reference to abandonment by you. Phora2 was debated quite heavily, again without reference to abandonment. The only reference I ever read regarding abandonment was here on somethingawful1. I can only assume that Sulla posted another thread on thephora (phora1.5?) which I did not read. You will have to take my word for it that I never read it, if indeed it ever existed.


Maybe because you recognized that it was utterly irrelevant for the reasons I gave you when you DID post it. I don't agree with the timeline you gave, however. I remember it being a lot longer than a week.

Again, you did not give me any reasons. On the original thread, I had said something about all the ridiculous holocaust stories. You asked me to provide an example. I said something like "what about that Jewish kid who was gassed six times?" You then replied with something like "What was his name?" I then said something like "I'll try to find it out" I believe this was the last post on that thread before it was deleted. I spent considerable amounts of time trying to find his name. As soon as I had found it, I searched for my name to reply on the thread. I then discovered that the thread had been deleted. I then posted a new thread entitled something like "The Story of Moishe Peer" I made it clear that this was a continuation of the other, deleted thread (I believe it was originally yet another lampshades/Buchenwald one)



Tsk tsk, I wouldn't advise you to restart debates you couldn't handle, in that case. As I said, I was willing to overlook the fact that your entire post was based in ignorance YOU ADMITTED regarding a subject, which is why it was pointless to reply to. You asked for a reply, you got one, and now you're attempting to claim you can't be 'bothered' to debate the issues in question.

I didn't restart this debate. I do not recall admitting ignorance regarding the subject, except that I could not find his name. Before you restarted this thread I said that I would no longer be arguing on holocaust issues. It has nothing to do with this particular topic.