waho.. first post.. three cheers for the new forum.. : )

I think we may have to turn on the spelling check................ :rolleyes:

sorry i was too excited to be the first post..

your just jealous..:p

even though you could delete my post

:D

or steal your post hehe, did you see the announcement? ;)

Nah, i'm a good guy....

congrats on the first post... enjoy it while you can. before you know it this place is gonna look like a war-zone

well I am ready to learn about history.. and make myself look like a fool, b/c I don't know anything about it

The following is from a document purporting to have been translated from French early in the 20th century-ie, historical.

Do you think it's a work of fiction, or more factual than that?

Note this is a little of part 1; the source has 24 sections and in total is about 80 pages of text. Whoever wrote it read Machiavelli I would say.


No. 1

2. What I am about to set forth, then, is our system from the two points of view, that of ourselves and that of the OTHERS [].

6. Political freedom is an idea but not a fact. This idea one must know how to apply whenever it appears necessary with this bait of an idea to attract the masses of the people to one's party for the purpose of crushing another who is in authority. This task is rendered easier if the opponent has himself been infected with the idea of freedom, SO-CALLED LIBERALISM, and, for the sake of an idea, is willing to yield some of his power….

11. The political has nothing in common with the moral. The ruler who is governed by the moral is not a skilled politician, and is therefore unstable on his throne… Great national qualities, like frankness and honesty, are vices in politics, for they bring down rulers from their thrones more effectively and more certainly than the most powerful enemy. Such qualities must be the attributes of the kingdoms of the OTHERS, but we must in no wise be guided by them.

14. In any … who have lost their personality amid the flood of rights ever multiplying out of liberalism, I find a new right - to attack by the right of the strong, and to scatter to the winds all existing forces of order and regulation, to reconstruct all institutions and to become the sovereign lord of those who have left to us the rights of their power by laying them down voluntarily in their liberalism.

17. Before us is a plan in which is laid down strategically the line from which we cannot deviate without running the risk of seeing the labor of many centuries brought to naught.

21…. Without an absolute despotism there can be no existence for civilization which is carried on not by the masses but by their guide, whosoever that person may be. …. The moment the mob seizes freedom in its hands it quickly turns to anarchy, which in itself is the highest degree of savagery.

22. Behold the alcoholic animals, bemused with drink, the right to an immoderate use of which comes along with freedom….. The peoples of the OTHERS are bemused with alcoholic liquors; their youth has grown stupid on classicism and from early immorality,

Originally posted by hammegk
The following is from a document purporting to have been translated from French early in the 20th century-ie, historical.

Do you think it's a work of fiction, or more factual than that?

Note this is a little of part 1; the source has 24 sections and in total is about 80 pages of text. Whoever wrote it read Machiavelli I would say.


No. 1

2. What I am about to set forth, then, is our system from the two points of view, that of ourselves and that of the OTHERS [].

6. Political freedom is an idea but not a fact. This idea one must know how to apply whenever it appears necessary with this bait of an idea to attract the masses of the people to one's party for the purpose of crushing another who is in authority. This task is rendered easier if the opponent has himself been infected with the idea of freedom, SO-CALLED LIBERALISM, and, for the sake of an idea, is willing to yield some of his power….

11. The political has nothing in common with the moral. The ruler who is governed by the moral is not a skilled politician, and is therefore unstable on his throne… Great national qualities, like frankness and honesty, are vices in politics, for they bring down rulers from their thrones more effectively and more certainly than the most powerful enemy. Such qualities must be the attributes of the kingdoms of the OTHERS, but we must in no wise be guided by them.

14. In any … who have lost their personality amid the flood of rights ever multiplying out of liberalism, I find a new right - to attack by the right of the strong, and to scatter to the winds all existing forces of order and regulation, to reconstruct all institutions and to become the sovereign lord of those who have left to us the rights of their power by laying them down voluntarily in their liberalism.

17. Before us is a plan in which is laid down strategically the line from which we cannot deviate without running the risk of seeing the labor of many centuries brought to naught.

21…. Without an absolute despotism there can be no existence for civilization which is carried on not by the masses but by their guide, whosoever that person may be. …. The moment the mob seizes freedom in its hands it quickly turns to anarchy, which in itself is the highest degree of savagery.

22. Behold the alcoholic animals, bemused with drink, the right to an immoderate use of which comes along with freedom….. The peoples of the OTHERS are bemused with alcoholic liquors; their youth has grown stupid on classicism and from early immorality,
So tell me, who wrote that? THe part of about the alcoholic animal especially made sense.

The author(s) are unknown, whether fact or fiction. The version I posted has been redacted by me to remove implications in the French version as to who the 'OTHERS' are, and therefore who the group is that writes/uses/directs?? these ideas.

remember, 24 Parts..

here is the rest of Part 1, Part 2. and a bit of Part 3:
Part 1. (continued)
25… The would-be wise men of the OTHERS, the intellectuals, could not make anything out of the uttered words in their abstractedness; did not see that in nature there is no equality, cannot be freedom: that Nature herself has established inequality of minds, of characters, and capacities, just as immutably as she has established subordination to her laws …

26 … we have set up the aristocracy of our educated class headed by the aristocracy of money. The qualifications for this aristocracy we have established in wealth, which is dependent upon us, and in knowledge, for which our learned elders provide the motive force.

27… we have always worked upon the most sensitive chords of the human mind, upon the cash account, upon the cupidity, upon the insatiability for material needs of man; and each one of these human weaknesses, taken alone, is sufficient to paralyze initiative….

No. 2

2.. … The OTHERS are not guided by practical use of unprejudiced historical observation, but by theoretical routine without any critical regard for consequent results. … For them let that play the principal part which we have persuaded them to accept as the dictates of science (theory)….

3. Do not suppose for a moment that these statements are empty words: think carefully of the successes we arranged for Darwinism, Marxism, Nietzsche-ism. To us Ourselves, at any rate, it should be plain to see what a disintegrating importance these directives have had upon the minds of the OTHERS.

[N.B. See this board for the Dinosaurs vs Bible 'controversy'.]

5. … The part played by the Press is to keep pointing our requirements supposed to be indispensable, to give voice to the complaints of the people, to express and to create discontent. It is in the Press that the triumph of freedom of speech finds its incarnation. But the OTHERS States have not known how to make use of this force; and it has fallen into our hands ….

No. 3

5. …. if talkers get the right to babble, if journalists get the right to scribble any nonsense side by side with good stuff, once the proletariat has no other profit out of the constitution save only those pitiful crumbs which we fling them from our table in return for their voting in favor of what we dictate, in favor of the men we place in power, …

7. We appear on the scene as alleged saviours of the worker from this oppression when we propose to him to enter the ranks of our fighting forces - Socialists, Anarchists, Communists …

10. … THE DIVISION OF MEN INTO CLASSES AND CONDITIONS. It is essential for all to know that OWING TO DIFFERENCE IN THE OBJECTS OF HUMAN ACTIVITY THERE CANNOT BE ANY EQUALITY, …

12. Remember the French Revolution… its preparations are well known to us for it was wholly the work of our hands.

16. At the present day we are, as an international force, invincible, because if attacked by some we are supported by other States.

[N.B.I am one of the OTHERS so far as I know. If the treatise be fact, I would say knowledge of who are 'non-others' a good question, and one I don't pretend to have an answer to.
As I read history, It appears that various groups might have thought they were the 'non-others', and used these thoughts to their advantage??]
:confused: