One of the most fascinating characters in biblical literature is Satan. I've seen his story twisted a thousand thousand ways, and still I'm interested. I think my favorite portrayal of Satan comes from El Club Dumas(availible at the DA store!), wherein the Devil is a fallen angel, lonely, missing home and weary from millenia of leading the other fallen angels in a pitched battle for man's true freedom.

I'm curious to hear what others think of this (mythical?) character and his effect on culture as a symbol and, if you so believe, as a real being. Tell all, tell all!

From the Devil's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce:

SATAN, n. One of the Creator's lamentable mistakes, repented in
sashcloth and axes. Being instated as an archangel, Satan made
himself multifariously objectionable and was finally expelled from
Heaven. Halfway in his descent he paused, bent his head in thought a
moment and at last went back. "There is one favor that I should like
to ask," said he.
"Name it."
"Man, I understand, is about to be created. He will need laws."
"What, wretch! you his appointed adversary, charged from the dawn
of eternity with hatred of his soul -- you ask for the right to make
his laws?"
"Pardon; what I have to ask is that he be permitted to make them
himself."
It was so ordered.

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I'm lonely, in my reflection
Staring back, right back at me
I'm losing my connection
To who I am, who I meant to be

I think Satan, as a character is terribly interesting...I wrote a big paper on him in high school (well, as a literary figure, in the Bible - as a book, not an historical document - and in 'Paradise Lost' (which is an *amazing* book if you can get through it). And in that same class, we put Satan on trial (based on a segment from 'Paradise Lost', for the most part). That was the best - I was the defense's star witness, had the prosecuting lawyer just about in tears because I'd read the whole book, not just the segment we read in class, and I wasn't answering her questions the way she thought I should, because I knew more about the subject.

Basically, Satan ends up as a scapegoat, more often than not - whenever man can't control his desires, it's because Satan's tempting him, not because he's weak-willed. But then, you've also got Satan as the hero of those who feel disenfranchized by traditional culture and religion. Your parents believe in God, you're a rebellious teen who doesn't want anything to do with his or her parents, or the society they live in...so your god is Satan. Makes sense, to a point - to a lot of those people, Satan plays the exact role of the traditional God, but 'cooler', because their parents say he's bad. Plus, he's the ultimate rebel - he didn't like society, so he dropped out and was bad. Kids don't like society, so they drop off into groups that basically stand for everything traditional society was against.

In the end, though, you can't have a 'perfect' God without having Satan - there can't be an ultimate good until you define ultimate evil. But then, morality is all relative, which complicates things...how can you define ultimate good and ultimate evil when it changes from one situation to the next?

Ok, I feel like I'm writing a term paper, so I'm gonna stop now.

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

I don't believe in either one (satan or god) but I can appreciate how he serves as a metaphore to mans true nature. I believe we did evolve and that we're basically animals that have put so many rules and limitations upon themselves, that we alienated ourselves from our own real nature. Satan symbolizes our desire to break free from out limited lives and LIVE.

I'm a Christian, so, to me, Satan is real. He broke ties and warred with God. He betrayed his own creator and led others to do the same.

He has lied and cheated to lure mankind away from God. He has disguised himself as "freedom" in order to "free" man from God (and salvation). Any dealings with or sympathy for Satan is simply foolhardy and sinful.

Now, that's the party's official stance. On a personal level, yeah, Satan does fit many of the traits that we Americans like to put on an underdog hero. He's rebelling against his "father", and he wants to "free" other people. But, what he's freeing them from is happiness, salvation, and eternity being near the Perfect Being. He's hardly a "hero".

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Go ahead and call Cosmo "Chief" and Bill is "Fearless Leader" . . . I'm HAPPILY "Minister of Spanking"!!

Famous Last Words:
Socrates - "I drank WHAT?"

ya, scapegoat. Because if your a good christian, you can not accept any type of fault, blame it on the devil.

We can look at what various authors and religions say about Satan, but we must see what the Bible says to find out for ourselves. Preceding the particular creation described in Genesis, Angels had been created. (Job 38 1-7) These are spirit beings that have mind capacity that is superior to humanoids. ( II Peter 2:11) They have also have immortal life. Angels were created as helpers in the Creator’s creation. ( Rev. 5:6, Zech. 4:10, II Chron. 16:9). Angels are assigned to look after the Creator’s human children. (Acts 12:15, Matt 18:10) Angels act as messengers as they appeared to many individuals as recorded in the Bible.

The highest ranking Angels were Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12) who later becomes Satan, Gabriel (Dan. 8:16, 9:21, Luke 1:19, 26), and Michael (Dan. 10:2-13,12:1, 21, Jude 9, Rev 12:7). The Creator creates things with minds; with the power to think reason and make choices. However, righteous character could not be created by fiat, it had to be developed intentionally by each individual. This goes for the Angels as well as humans.

Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 indicate that the Creator placed archangel Lucifer in charge of administering the spiritual government on earth. Lucifer, who became Satan with one third of all Angels who became Demons, broke the Creator’s law of love and then the earth became void and “without form” and flooded with water as described in Genesis 1:2 before the creation of humanoids. Genesis 1:2 is actually describing a renewing of the Earth after the one third of the Angels went nuts with Satan an unknown amount of time before Genesis. Satan planned to put himself in place of the Creator. Rev 12:7-9 discusses the war between Michael and his Angels versus Satan and his Demons. (Also Dan 12:1-2)

The theory of the Bible states that the Creator’s purpose was to reproduce Himself through humanoids. Unlike immortal Angel beings, humanoids would die after their physical life is expended if sin is unrepented, but possibly live again in the divine family through Christ who gave himself for that purpose.

Notice that when Jesus was fasting in the wilderness (Matt 4:8), Satan offers him the knigdoms of earth if Jesus will fall down and worship Satan. Obviously, Satan is a major player in earthly governments then since he is immortal, but Rev. 20 says Satan is bound up for 1,000 years. Rev 20:7 indicates Satan will be let loose again to cause before he is finally tossed in the lake of fire forever.

What is interesting is that Satan's influence is very strong since, according to the Bible, as far as we know, he is still a major spiritual player behind the scenes in most governments. This makes rebellious, freedom fighting, tax protestoing, home schoolers, etc. the righteous ones who oppose Satan and his establishment systems.

Satan is not a scapegoat. That's a common misconception about Christians. Satan CAN'T make a Christian do anything. He can propose situations and tempt, but he can't MAKE us do anything.

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Go ahead and call Cosmo "Chief" and Bill is "Fearless Leader" . . . I'm HAPPILY "Minister of Spanking"!!

Famous Last Words:
Socrates - "I drank WHAT?"

Well, he can't *force* anyone to do anything against their will, but he certainly is seen as a persuasive tempter. If he can tempt Jesus (not get him to sin, mind you, but definitely get him to consider it), well, we mere humans can't be expected to be perfect. Haven't you ever heard the saying 'The Devil made me do it'? That's some pretty clear scapegoating there...'It's not my fault, I was tricked.' Same idea...if there's an outside force who's devoted his eternal life to getting humans to sin, there's a good chance it's going to work, and there's always a second party to blame it on.

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

i dunno....i personally don't belive in a hell...


do jews even belive in a hell....i think they don't....if you repent during Yom Kippour, you get forgiven...

pretty sweet...

but if they did...i still wouldn't belive in a hell...and i'm not sure that i belive in a heaven either.

I Hope there is a higher place we go to after life...or possibly...our life force is recycled in others.....

i wonder...

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"The only thing i know is that i don't know"
-Socrates
http://216.105.37.221/images/gif006.gif

Originally posted by D Durden:
Satan is not a scapegoat. That's a common misconception about Christians. Satan CAN'T make a Christian do anything. He can propose situations and tempt, but he can't MAKE us do anything.



Of course he can, havent you seen The Exorcist? He can posses your body, make your head spin and cause you to projecticle puke green shit and masturbate with crucifixes. Ragnarock Nathrac Hemoblitothepn! Red Rum! Red Rum!


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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

LOL! Yeah, that was a real pisser. It was either Satan or all the Teletubby cartoons that did it! LOL!

Actually, possession is something that I'd like to know more about (but not first hand, of course!). I KNOW you don't believe in it Cody, so spare me the jokes http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif. I'm speaking as a Christian about something I believe in. From a spiritual point, I'd like to know HOW it happens.

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Go ahead and call Cosmo "Chief" and Bill is "Fearless Leader" . . . I'm HAPPILY "Minister of Spanking"!!

Famous Last Words:
Socrates - "I drank WHAT?"

Originally posted by Aphasia:
If he can tempt Jesus (not get him to sin, mind you, but definitely get him to consider it), well, we mere humans can't be expected to be perfect.

If we reread Matthew 4 we see that the devil "tried" to tempt Jesus after he was famished having fasted for 40 days and nights. The devil tried, but most importantly, failed in even getting Jesus to consider his offer of all the kingdoms of the world. Jesus responded without considering the offer, "Away with you Satan! for it is written, 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.'" The devil quickly departed.

From a Biblical perspective we see that the spiritual power of Jesus beats the spiritual power of Satan even when Jesus is in the physical constraints of a human body.

Matthew 8, Luke 4 and Mark 1 has info regarding demon possession. Satan would not have time for personal possessions of humans himself I would think since he is in charge of the demons as a group. Physical disease is caused by weakened cell structures that allow relatively harmless viruses or bacteria to flourish and grow until the cell is transformed from health to death. Similarly I would think spiritually an individual allows an opening in which a demon may find an entry point and from there overtake the individual until only an only an exercism can extract the entity.

Bah, why can't I delete this?

[This message has been edited by Aphasia (edited 08-30-2001).]

Originally posted by Snouter:
If we reread Matthew 4 we see that the devil "tried" to tempt Jesus after he was famished having fasted for 40 days and nights. The devil tried, but most importantly, failed in even getting Jesus to consider his offer of all the kingdoms of the world. Jesus responded without considering the offer, "Away with you Satan! for it is written, 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.'" The devil quickly departed.

From a Biblical perspective we see that the spiritual power of Jesus beats the spiritual power of Satan even when Jesus is in the physical constraints of a human body.

However, Jesus did doubt God a few times. I'm trying to think of specific instances, but I'm having trouble without my handy little Bible here - I suck at remembering chapter numbers. However, He believed that He had been forsaken by God, thus showing doubt in the great 'Master Plan', right before He died on the cross, when He said 'My God, my God, why hath thou forsaken me?' He wasn't 100% immune to Satan, just managed to catch himself before he made any major mistakes.


Matthew 8, Luke 4 and Mark 1 has info regarding demon possession. Satan would not have time for personal possessions of humans himself I would think since he is in charge of the demons as a group. Physical disease is caused by weakened cell structures that allow relatively harmless viruses or bacteria to flourish and grow until the cell is transformed from health to death. Similarly I would think spiritually an individual allows an opening in which a demon may find an entry point and from there overtake the individual until only an only an exercism can extract the entity.

Nah, I think that Satan himself might have done a possession or two, if you read through those in the Bible. I don't think, necessarily, that an individual would have to allow an 'opening' - the cases that have been reported (and yeah, even some of the ones that have been reported in sources other than the Bible, in more recent years) have shown a wide range of possessees (?), which doesn't necessarily suggest that they were doing anything special to allow for their possessions. I mean, what can a little kid do to open himself up for a demon? (Yes, The Exorcist was based on a true story, and the victim was a young boy, if I remember correctly. I actually saw this with Cody, though I think it was scarier for me, being as I believe a bit more in that sort of thing than he does.)

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

The Devil is in my pants! Die Satan Die!

alright asa...you've been warned..

don't post garbage....



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"The only thing i know is that i don't know"
-Socrates

and obviously he didn't know...when he drank hemlock. Thanks D Durden :)
http://216.105.37.221/images/gif006.gif

Great Scott! You have no sense of Humor!

There's nothing quite as funny as an "in my pants" joke.

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I'm lonely, in my reflection
Staring back, right back at me
I'm losing my connection
To who I am, who I meant to be

Originally posted by D Durden:


Actually, possession is something that I'd like to know more about (but not first hand, of course!). I KNOW you don't believe in it Cody, so spare me the jokes http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif. I'm speaking as a Christian about something I believe in. From a spiritual point, I'd like to know HOW it happens.



In all seriousness im pretty sure its a psychological phenomenon, though it may often stem from people religious beliefs, I highly doubt it is the work of evil spirits.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

I love that b52s song- theres a monster in my pants, and it does a dirty dance. A monster ! ah! oh no a giant monster!

that is all.

Well as a Wiccan I dont believe personally in Satan, but i think that he does exsist for other people. I pretty much think if you believe in it then it is real. And yes...I dont beieve in faeries....

Rayne

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"When Im good, im very very good, but when Im bad Im better" Mae West

"Why would we be looking at that weird eye?" Garth Algar

I think most of us here are at least vaguely familiar with Wicca and the concept of subjective reality. However, this thread, regardless of asasuperfly's trolling, is about Satan as a character. Reactions, opinions, et cetera, are fine. It's not a question of your faith.

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"He'd watched her sleep with her fists clenched, tormented by nightmares of gleaming, blond archangels, implacable in their armor, as dogmatic as the God who made them march in time." ~Arturo Pérez-Reverte

Ack I meant DO believe in Faeries. Ok Guitarophile, Satan as a "character". I think he is made out to be like Aphasia said, a scapegoat. Hence the saying "The Devil made me do it". He is used by people who dont want to take the whole responsiblity for their actions. He is made out to be all evil and dark, but he has appeal to many people anyway, not because they themselves are evil etc but because of the "freedom" it permits. Satanism (dont know if thats the right word...sorry) has its own set of commandments known as I think the Seven (?) Statements. When read, some of them actually make sense and DO apply to todays world eg. when you are in another man lair, show him respect; Kill only for food or if attacked. But that is Satanism as a religion and not Satan himself.

So I probably STILL havent answered the question properly, sorry.

Rayne

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"When Im good, im very very good, but when Im bad Im better" Mae West

"Why would we be looking at that weird eye?" Garth Algar

No worries. I'd like to have a wiccan perspective here, actually, regarding the perversion of Pan as an avatar of Satan. You know what I mean, goat legs and horns, etc. Or how about how the inquisitors suddenly decided one day that the inverted pentacle (pentagram) was a satanic symbol.

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"He'd watched her sleep with her fists clenched, tormented by nightmares of gleaming, blond archangels, implacable in their armor, as dogmatic as the God who made them march in time." ~Arturo Pérez-Reverte

Well, to be honest, it doesnt particularly bother me one way or the other about the Pentacle. Its a symbol that could mean different things to different people, I mean if you look at the Swaztica (no idea how to spell) it was originally a symbol for health and protection but it was made into an evil object by Hilter. As for the Horned God being turned into Satan - Im less than thrilled obviously, but its my opinion that the "church" needed something to turn people away from Wicca and make it evil so they changed the God into Satan for their own gains. It brought them more followers, hence more money and then to try and irradicate the "Witches" they chose people who were mentally ill, or different etc and burned them, putting fear into the remaining people. I personally think our God know as "Satan" to the Church followers has kept them in "business", for want of a better word, all these years and will continue to do so. Thats just my two cents anyway....

Rayne

PS By the way if any of that sounded harsh or personal attacky, Im sorry thats not what it supposed to sound like.... http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif I dont think the Church is a bad thing, its just not right for me....

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"When Im good, im very very good, but when Im bad Im better" Mae West

"Why would we be looking at that weird eye?" Garth Algar

Is he a perversion of Pan? I mean, it's been suggested, but certainly not proven. It happened a long time ago, and can't be changed now. I could explain to some of my more open-minded Christian friends that I feel he is, and it'd give them something to think about. But the people who won't listen to it are probably the people who wouldn't get along with me anyway.

I believe Satan exists as an archetype and a thoughtform. I also think that's what he was originally meant to be, but people kind of took the belief further.

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I am the master of my own life.

DigitalDenial (http://digitaldenial.com/)

Originally posted by Raynewitch:
...As for the Horned God being turned into Satan - Im less than thrilled obviously, but its my opinion that the "church" needed something to turn people away from Wicca and make it evil so they changed the God into Satan for their own gains. It brought them more followers, hence more money and then to try and irradicate the "Witches" they chose people who were mentally ill, or different etc and burned them, putting fear into the remaining people. I personally think our God know as "Satan" to the Church followers has kept them in "business", for want of a better word, all these years and will continue to do so. Thats just my two cents anyway....


In the 1930's, the Englishman Gerald Gardner, borrowing from Jewish mysticism, ceremonial magic, folklore and history as well as a great deal of his own inventiveness, created what is now called Wicca. While many of the roots of this new faith were certainly ancient (stemming mainly from Pre-Christian Celtic and Teutonic belief systems), Wicca was largely Gardner's creation, and has gained widespread popularity in the ensuing decades. Wicca has a few basic teachings, though modern practioners have added to and integrated other beliefs into Wicca, these principles have remained the same.

There is no separation between the Creator and Creation - Thou art God.
All things are inextricably connected to one another - we each affect our Universe through our actions.
Sexuality and our bodies are sacred - unlike the dogma that some religions teach, sex is not negative or dirty, but rather quite beautiful and something to be embraced.
We are each connected to Deity (whichever you choose to acknowledge) - life force is life force is You is God.
Nature gives religious inspiration, thus Wicca is a Nature religion, one that accepts both the growths and deaths during the endless cycle of life. There is power in this understanding.
Every Wiccan is considered to be clergy - no middlemen here!
Magic is real, and we can all harness it. We are each magical beings.
Any action you commit, comes back to you threefold, both the good and the bad. We are each responsible for ourselves.

(Stolen responsibly from Everything2 (http://www.everything2.com))

----

There wasn't really a Wicca to turn Christians away from at the time, deary. All that nasty witch-burning business, as well as the demonization of the pentacle, and the Pan-like rendering of Satan, happened 'round 500 years ago in western Europe.

**Thanks Holy Roman Catholic Church!** (bastards)

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"He'd watched her sleep with her fists clenched, tormented by nightmares of gleaming, blond archangels, implacable in their armor, as dogmatic as the God who made them march in time." ~Arturo Pérez-Reverte

[This message has been edited by Guitarophile (edited 09-03-2001).]

I think she meant Witchcraft, not Wicca, which is believed to have existed before Christianity...

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I am the master of my own life.

DigitalDenial (http://digitaldenial.com/)

Originally posted by Guitarophile:
In the 1930's, the Englishman Gerald Gardner, borrowing from Jewish mysticism, ceremonial magic, folklore and history as well as a great deal of his own inventiveness, created what is now called Wicca.


Woah...he's a kinsman...my last name is Gardner! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

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"The only thing i know is that i don't know"
-Socrates

and obviously he didn't know...when he drank hemlock. Thanks D Durden :)
http://216.105.37.221/images/gif006.gif

Yeah sorry about that...I usually link the Craft and Wicca together, which is really 2 different things...but hey, next time I do it burn me http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif

R

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"When Im good, im very very good, but when Im bad Im better" Mae West

"Why would we be looking at that weird eye?" Garth Algar

Originally posted by Raynewitch:
Yeah sorry about that...I usually link the Craft and Wicca together, which is really 2 different things...but hey, next time I do it burn me http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif

R



Haha! Funny thing... My parents and brother were vacationing on the east coast a few years ago and they wound up going to Salem, Massachusetts (for those of you not from America, Salem was the site of famous witch trials and executions during the 17th century). Anyways, while they were there, they went into a gift store. When they got to the counter, my mom was complaining about how she didn't like one of her fellow teachers, and she said that she looked like a witch. The girl working behind the counter then said, "I'm a witch..."

Needless to say, my mom grew quite flustered, and my brother started mumbling to my dad about how they were screwed and how they were gonna get a curse put on them.

My mom straightened it out, however, by saying she meant the Hollywoodish witch, with the bent nose and creepy fingers and evil laugh. The girl behind the counter, who was apparently pretty cool, said she totally got what she was saying and so everything turned out alright.

Of course, sometimes I gotta wonder if this episode has anything to do with the fact that I'm strangely developing a tail...

-Patrick

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"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

LMAO!!!! DOOOOH!

Some of my Wiccan friends have asbestos robes they wear when I party with them . . . in case I get a Christian flashback or something (so they claim). They don't let me light any candles or anything either . . . they just don't trust me with fire! LOL!



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Minister of Spanking

"I AM the lyrical Jesse James."