Why is "Socialist" a dirty word in AmeriKKKa? [Archive]

Truth Teller

11-15-2002, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Manu
I think the real distinction comes because socialism is not a BETTER answer to what we have.

The principles of increasing paritity in way of life and economics is an attractive one, but at the same level, there is a rung of society that perhaps...doesn't deserve parity of economics due to their own contributions?

As we are a mixed socialist society (with a MINOR MINOR inclination towards socialism) I think its a good mix. We do want to work towards increasing the standard of everyone, but not at the main cost of the people who work hard.

For example, socialized medicine. If a government sponsored socialized medical program could offer (and would offer) the same services and quality I get from a private facility (or better) at similar costs, then ia m all for it. In practice though, that just isn't the case.

To a large extent I agree with you Manu.

Joey once called me a "moderate leftist",he's right.

Meaning liberals are too conseravtive for me,but I don't go anywhere near to the farthest left.

I'm not a socalist,having said that I don't think it's an evil system ,nor I do I think socalsits are evil people [in my experience they are amongst the very best] and I don't like stupid people [who wouldn't know real socalism if it bit them on the ass] scapgoating both the term and the good people who follow true socialism.

I think what works best is socailly responsible capitalism,and there have always been socailly responsible buisnesses in this country.

In the 50's many firms forced their Southern affliates to hire people of color and have them paid and treated equally to white employees,socially responsible corperations have lead the way in the sexual orentation battle with domestic partnerships.

A lot of environmentalism has come from sociallyn responsible buisnesses,I wrok for a socialy responsible busness that does very good work in the community I live in.

Snouter

11-15-2002, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Truth Teller
I'm not a socalist

LOL :p :bs:

JoeyNormal

11-15-2002, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Snouter

LOL :p :bs:

LOL :p :bs:

:|

EDIT = Screwed up a smiley.

eanax

11-15-2002, 07:24 PM

Griff

11-15-2002, 07:30 PM

Socialism is Robin Hood: Steal from the rich to give to the poor. On the surface, seems kinda nice, until you think about it. Once you have what the rich did, they're poor. Your turn to get robbed. Oh, no, you say, the purpose is to get everyone equal. Right. Sure. That just ain't human nature. (See "Alpha Male")
If you keep your eyes open for a cycle or two, you'll come to the understanding that your extra work will actually end up dropping you down a notch, since you've gotten more to take away. Therefore, it's better to be less-than-average. So, instead of trying to improve, the incentive is to drop quality, or, at best, stay stagnant. Bad.
Enter Capitalism. We reward Greed. Why not turn a negative into a positive? Ends up making lotsa growth and struggle, the engine of progress. Works so well that the commies ended up doing it, too. Ironic.
Sooo, I think that the basic reason Socialsim is a dirty word in AMERICA is that it goes against our grain. We need to excell, one way or another. It's kinda like we see you lying about, asking us to do the work for you.

JoeyNormal

11-15-2002, 07:34 PM

Why is Socialism a dirty word in America?

Because it was a convenient scapegoat. It was convenient to refer to the spectre of Communism, to build fear and hatred. It was a brilliant scare tactic. If the state and media create a climate of fear and hatred in society, dissenters silence themselves.

We see the same effect occuring now with "terrorism".

Frank

11-15-2002, 08:07 PM

Joey:

In my experience, involuntary euthanasia is an appopriate action towards violent racsts (note the "violent" part. I don't think, and I hope that you've never met that criteria).

When it comes to defending my race, family and their future, I fully advocate and support violence.

Truth-Teller:

Netiher have I.

Have you ever sat down with a member of the National Alliance or the WCOTC and talked with them?

Sorry for going off topic, please continue everyone.

John Long

11-15-2002, 09:03 PM

In the first place, Its called America! there are no frigginn"k"s in it, learn to spell correctly. Because if you cant do something as simple as spell " the greatest nation on earths name("America") correctly, what else are you gonna get wrong? second, Socialism, or Communism, has been a miserable failure everywhere its been tried. Its a dirty word because Socialism believes in the redistribution of wealth from the productive to the unproductive. Its just another word for Richophobia (fear of the rich) Drive out the rich and you make everyone poor. unless your a parasite, then you can suck off the productive , like the Leftists do, until there nothing left to suck..
DEATH TO THE LEFT!
L88r JL

John Long

11-15-2002, 09:17 PM

"Truth Teller is a typical Anti-American Communist that tells nothing but lies. His every response to the real truth is "Mc Carthyism"(as if that was bad) . Mc Carthyism was a needed and nessesary response to Communism. If anything, we need "Mc Carthyism" now!Communists taking advantage of Americas freedom, working to overthrow the country, while hiding behind misleading titles like "truth teller" does , are traitors and seditionists, they should be rounded up and destroyed.
The Left cries on and on about Hitler, but ignore Stalin and Mao(who killed more people)They hate America, but have no solution but something a thousand times worse.
If you have a mental problem with what Im saying "truth teller" bring it on, Ill be here to tell you and all Anti-White communist scum where they can go until they find a way to get me off the board.
DEATH TO COMMUNIST SCUM!
L88r JL

Truth Teller

11-15-2002, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by John Long

learn to spell correctly.

Ok.

the greatest nation on earths name

That's "earth's".

John Long

11-15-2002, 09:41 PM

Truth Teller,
I forgot an apostrophe? AND? A sorry bitch like you is try to teach me how to spell?
Truth Teller, why is it whenever someone doesnt agree with you, you throw up that old "Mc Carthytism". Is that the Commuinists last line when they have no argument left.
Mc Carthyism wasnt so bad, it exposed and brought down communist slime like you. You whine on and on abvout Mc carthyism , but what about Stalin, what about Mao, what about Pol Pot, Id rather live under Mc Carthyism than Communist tyranny....
"Truth Teller" is anything but. Just another Anti-American Communist traitor who should be destroyed...
DEATH TO THE LEFT! KILL ALL COMMIE SCUM! L88r JL

RedLine99

11-15-2002, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by JoeyNormal
Why is Socialism a dirty word in America?

It's far more PC than refering to it as the "lunatic fringe", but I'm sure it won't be long before that occurs.

Monster

11-15-2002, 09:50 PM

Lighten up! (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18418)

QtrHrsmn

11-15-2002, 09:56 PM

What's funny to me, is in a socialist country, some people are MORE equal than others. That's why I don't like it. If everyone could truly be equal, it MIGHT be a good thing. BUT, nobody rides for free.

JoeyNormal

11-16-2002, 02:37 AM

http://www.missoulanews.com/photos/12/0144feature2.jpg

We're winning, John, we're winning...

SpabSFW

11-16-2002, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by John Long
"Truth Teller is a typical Anti-American Communist that tells nothing but lies. His every response to the real truth is "Mc Carthyism"(as if that was bad) . Mc Carthyism was a needed and nessesary response to Communism. If anything, we need "Mc Carthyism" now!Communists taking advantage of Americas freedom, working to overthrow the country, while hiding behind misleading titles like "truth teller" does , are traitors and seditionists, they should be rounded up and destroyed.
The Left cries on and on about Hitler, but ignore Stalin and Mao(who killed more people)They hate America, but have no solution but something a thousand times worse.
If you have a mental problem with what Im saying "truth teller" bring it on, Ill be here to tell you and all Anti-White communist scum where they can go until they find a way to get me off the board.
DEATH TO COMMUNIST SCUM!
L88r JL

OPP is :cool: !! Daryle Rulz!!! ROFL, Hi john-john... how do you like me now?

Spabbio

Zaphod Beeblebrox

11-16-2002, 03:54 AM

What's funny to me, is in a socialist country, some people are MORE equal than others.

And how does that differ from a capitalist country? If you're born in a family that doesn't send you to school you're not going to get very far, no matter how equal you might theoretically be to a rich family's kid.

At least in a socialist country you'd have a chance to develop.

Shawn

11-16-2002, 04:46 AM

And how does that differ from a capitalist country? If you're born in a family that doesn't send you to school you're not going to get very far, no matter how equal you might theoretically be to a rich family's kid

Or you may choose to take responsibility for your OWN life - and take advantage of any one of the multitude of opportunities available to EARN your own education.

Heaven forbid that one should have to live on proactivity and individual initiative.

Gosh, I guess we'd better go tell all those people of less fortunate sons that are working hard to put themselves through college that they won't succeed - because their family isn't financing it.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

FaDeThEBuTcHeR

11-16-2002, 04:50 AM

>>>Anyone care to answer that? I am quite proud to state that I am socialist.

Most likely because it is foreign and alien to American culture which is premised upon individual imperialism.

>>>Probibly a bit more of an Anarchist but I do think the there needs to be economic democracy as well as political democracy.

I do not see why I should support the construction of a huge welfare state to support the existence of millions of impoverished cultural aliens.

>>>I believe that people who are in need should be serviced.

There is no such thing as an American people.

>>>I think that the government should give a hand to those who dont have the basic needs.

Translation: You believe the government should be the agent of cultural aliens to transfer wealth from one section of the population to another.

>>>There should be money given to those who cannot find work.

Unemployment in the United States is at one of its lowest levels in history. There is no need whatsoever to "give money" to such individuals.

>>>There should be health care available to those who need it.

It just so happens that the majority of those who do not have health care in the United States are illegal and legal Third World immigrants. No, I do not support subsidizing the Third World.

>>>There should be jobs provided to the unemployed. Is it really that wrong to believe in this?

There is no need to provide a job to Cultural Aliens.

>>>All over the world there are Socialist parties in party.

This is because American History in comparison to the other European nations is unique - American Culture was formed out of isolation from Europe and the frontier.

>>>In Germany the Social Democrats rule the country? Why does the United States see Socialist as being so evil?

Most Americans have not degenerated to the degree of pathological nihilism that is now found in Germany - mostly a result of "re-education" after WW2 by the Western Allies.

FaDeThEBuTcHeR

11-16-2002, 04:52 AM

>>>We're winning, John, we're winning...

Don't speak to soon. You may not just like the future. The Communists were doing quite well in Germany and Italy too ;). In fact, these stooges were necessary.

FaDeThEBuTcHeR

11-16-2002, 04:56 AM

>>>Why is Socialism a dirty word in America?

The essence of American culture is individualism - the expression of which if Capitalism

>>>Because it was a convenient scapegoat.

It is also been economically refuted for over a century now.

>>>It was convenient to refer to the spectre of Communism, to build fear and hatred.

Communism was responsible for the erradication of millions and the construction of a slave state known as the Soviet Union. Yes I hate Communism.

>>>It was a brilliant scare tactic. If the state and media create a climate of fear and hatred in society, dissenters silence themselves.

"The Media" did not create fear and hatred of Communism. Americans naturally hate Communism because it is foreign to American Culture. If anything, the Media has encouraged the degeneration of American culture into such nonsense.

>>>We see the same effect occuring now with "terrorism".

Barbarians like Osama bin Laden should be exterminated.

FaDeThEBuTcHeR

11-16-2002, 05:00 AM

>>>Or you may choose to take responsibility for your OWN life - and take advantage of any one of the multitude of opportunities available to EARN your own education.

Parasites require host organisms.

>>>Heaven forbid that one should have to live on proactivity and individual initiative.

We used to require this in the United States. There was no "welfare state" to support immigrants if they failed to make it in America. As a result, roughly a third of them in the Great Wave went back home. Today we support such individuals on welfare and encourage this absurdity known as "family reunification."

>>>Gosh, I guess we'd better go tell all those people of less fortunate sons that are working hard to put themselves through college that they won't succeed - because their family isn't financing it.

Did you that in some states illegal aliens qualify for in-state tuition while American citizens from another state wanting to go to a particular college in the state do not? Did you know this measure ws supported by the Republicans?

FaDeThEBuTcHeR

11-16-2002, 05:03 AM

>>>And how does that differ from a capitalist country? If you're born in a family that doesn't send you to school you're not going to get very far, no matter how equal you might theoretically be to a rich family's kid.

There is no such thing as "equality."

>>>At least in a socialist country you'd have a chance to develop.

We have Socialism in America to an extent. We spend more on healthcare and public services than any nation I can think of in terms of dollars. The pertinent question here always remains the same at whose expense.

FaDeThEBuTcHeR

11-16-2002, 05:05 AM

McCarthy was one of the finest men America has ever produced.

FaDeThEBuTcHeR

11-16-2002, 05:08 AM

>>>What's funny to me, is in a socialist country, some people are MORE equal than others.

There is nothing "equal" about TAKING a value from one person and GIVING a value to someone else that offers nothing in return.

>>>That's why I don't like it. If everyone could truly be equal, it MIGHT be a good thing. BUT, nobody rides for free

No, it would NOT be a good thing if "everyone" was equal. That would be nothing but the most banal and vulgar mediocrity imaginable. There is no such thing as equality. There never has been. There never will be. Equality is a product of nihilism.

Mr. Happy

11-16-2002, 09:32 AM

No joey abnormal, youre losing, every time you confront the police at one of those riots you call "demonstrations", you get your behinds kicked. Hows that "winning?"

Killakommieformommie.

QtrHrsmn

11-16-2002, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox

And how does that differ from a capitalist country? If you're born in a family that doesn't send you to school you're not going to get very far, no matter how equal you might theoretically be to a rich family's kid.

At least in a socialist country you'd have a chance to develop. Really? Please enlighten me... what is the AVERAGE educational level in the former soviet union? What is the AVERAGE educational level in China? Don't you people even LOOK at the examples of "socialism" at work?

QtrHrsmn

11-16-2002, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by FaDeThEBuTcHeR
>>>What's funny to me, is in a socialist country, some people are MORE equal than others.

There is nothing "equal" about TAKING a value from one person and GIVING a value to someone else that offers nothing in return.

>>>That's why I don't like it. If everyone could truly be equal, it MIGHT be a good thing. BUT, nobody rides for free

No, it would NOT be a good thing if "everyone" was equal. That would be nothing but the most banal and vulgar mediocrity imaginable. There is no such thing as equality. There never has been. There never will be. Equality is a product of nihilism. Dude... read: SARCASM.

I hate communism/socialism, too. I work, I feed my family, why can't everyone else?

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Cosmo
Basically socialists want to take what I earned and give it to some one who didn't earn it. Why would you think I wouldn't resent that? How about people who work hard but dont earn anything? Now thats a problem for me.

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by 86Dude
Socialists are not Americans, not even remotely close. The stand opposed to every principle this nation was founded on. Don't believe me? Checkout how the author of this thread chose to spell America.
Incorrect. USA is the birthplace of modern Socialism. The Workingmans party was the worlds first democratic Socialist movement. In 1920 Eugene Debbs, a candidate for the US Socialist party won a million votes.

Socialism is as american as apple pie. As a Socialist myself I can tell you that I am 100% american. I refuse to put any hyphens in front of american ether. I spell it AmeriKKKa because this is what the extreme right has turned this country into. We are living under a regeim of terror and its up to ordinary freedom lovers everywhere to restore the US to its former greatness.

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by RedLine99
In the last years I lived in Germany the Christian Democratic Union ran the country. The SPD (Socialist Partei Deutschland) were pretty much considered commies. They finally took over and I know why, just like they will here in AmeriCa.

Sorry, Crim, I'm at work and just don't have the time and interest to expand on this.
Remember this though, The Christian Democrats favor many things that would be considered left wing in the US such as National Healthcare.

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Snouter
JoeyNormal, in the USA socialism takes the form of the government stealing money and assets people earn and then having some of that money retained by the government and some redistributed to people who did not earn the money. This is insane and must be minimized so that only essential services are financed in accordance with the US Constitution and corporations must pay their fair share.

Joey, is the socialism you envision along the lines of intellectual socialist Pierre Joseph Proudhon who wrote What is Property? His insane answer was that owning property was theft! You stuff is not yours! His aim was anarchy in which government was no longer necessary and people would live in voluntary cooperation with each other. Does this sound like Proudhon had a grip on world history was thinking rationally and or does it sound like he was ignorant of history and human nature? I would answer this, nobody wants to pay taxes...nobody. But everyone wants the services paid by taxes. George W wants to spend all the money on bombs and the army and building new prisons. The right wingers also want to steal property from people without due process of law (a violation of the Constitution) in the form of property seizures for suspcted drug related crimes.

A socialist and a conservative are the same in the respect that they want to tax. The only difference is how they choose to spend the money

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Manu

For example, socialized medicine. If a government sponsored socialized medical program could offer (and would offer) the same services and quality I get from a private facility (or better) at similar costs, then ia m all for it. In practice though, that just isn't the case.
Yes Manu, there is limited forms of Socialism in the US now except that we dont like using that word here,

I think that if the Conservatives really cared about making health care possible for all citizens without nationalizing it than they could at least do something to reduce the costs of it. But the Rush Limbaughs of the world are all talk and no action. Its how they killed Clintons health care initiative, they scared the hell out of people but then offered them no alternatives. Just more lies.

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by eanax

Yes, it's wrong to believe this. Your method is tyrannical. You're - by default and probably unwittingly - supporting the forced removal of monies earned and invested by others.

In short, and to appeal to your high sense of morality, it's stealing...
No...its not steeling. Its taxation. Taxation is mentioned in the Bible.

Jesus was approached by the Pharasees and asked if one should pay taxes and answered..

"Whose head is on the coin"
"Why Ceasers"
"Give onto Ceaser what is Ceasers and give onto the lord what is his".

Enough said

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Griff
Socialism is Robin Hood: Steal from the rich to give to the poor. On the surface, seems kinda nice, until you think about it. Once you have what the rich did, they're poor. Your turn to get robbed. Oh, no, you say, the purpose is to get everyone equal. Right. Sure. That just ain't human nature. (See "Alpha Male")
.
Reminds me of Monty Pythons Flying Circus
Denis Moor Denis Moor riding though the land
Denis Moor Denis Moor with out a merry band
He steels from the poor
and gives to the rich
Stupid Bich!:D

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by John Long
In the first place, Its called America! there are no frigginn"k"s in it, learn to spell correctly. Because if you cant do something as simple as spell " the greatest nation on earths name("America") correctly, what else are you gonna get wrong? second, Socialism, or Communism, has been a miserable failure everywhere its been tried. Its a dirty word because Socialism believes in the redistribution of wealth from the productive to the unproductive. Its just another word for Richophobia (fear of the rich) Drive out the rich and you make everyone poor. unless your a parasite, then you can suck off the productive , like the Leftists do, until there nothing left to suck..
DEATH TO THE LEFT!
L88r JL
Once again...its the rightists who put the KKK in AmeriKKKa.

Again I ask what about the people who do work their asses off and end up with nothing to show for it. Working people are being robbed by their employers. What is worse people are loosing their jobs and have no where to go. Socialism is all about protecting people who do work. Its for people who want to work and want to get whats fair.

Socialism is all about fairness!

Criminal

11-16-2002, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by John Long

Mc Carthyism wasnt so bad, it exposed and brought down communist slime like you. You whine on and on abvout Mc carthyism , but what about Stalin, what about Mao, what about Pol Pot, Id rather live under Mc Carthyism than Communist tyranny....
"Truth Teller" is anything but. Just another Anti-American Communist traitor who should be destroyed...
DEATH TO THE LEFT! KILL ALL COMMIE SCUM! L88r JL
YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING!

McCarthyism was not so bad?

To take honest people, even army officers and brand them as communists without a thread of evidence?

Please read a history book.

Cosmo

11-16-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

Once again...its the rightists who put the KKK in AmeriKKKa.

Again I ask what about the people who do work their asses off and end up with nothing to show for it. Working people are being robbed by their employers. What is worse people are loosing their jobs and have no where to go. Socialism is all about protecting people who do work. Its for people who want to work and want to get whats fair.

Socialism is all about fairness!

why would someone work hard at something for no pay? socialism is all about taking from the people who produce to give to those who don't, which is really unfair.

do you actually know what you are talking about or is this another example of calling people to demonstrate for a felon you know nothing about?

Brian

11-16-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

Once again...its the rightists who put the KKK in AmeriKKKa.

Again I ask what about the people who do work their asses off and end up with nothing to show for it. Working people are being robbed by their employers. What is worse people are loosing their jobs and have no where to go. Socialism is all about protecting people who do work. Its for people who want to work and want to get whats fair.

Socialism is all about fairness!

:bs:

And what about the employees who are robbing thier employers? Are they just taking what they should be getting anyway? Socialism protects NOBODY. It simply redistributes wealth from those who make money, to those who do not. There is nothing fair about that.

RedLine99

11-16-2002, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

Remember this though, The Christian Democrats favor many things that would be considered left wing in the US such as National Healthcare.

True, and I wouldn't say they weren't "socialists" either. National healthcare, national wage scale, national postal service, national rail service...etc etc. did exist. At the time they also weren't burdened by the political change of unification. I guess you could say they practiced conservative socialism, but I wonder what actually would have existed there without Hitler and WWII. To rebuild a destroyed country required the creation of social services to the population, but unlike what happened during the FDR depression in the US the government in Germany continued its caretaking role. By the time the country recovered they were to deep to let go of the population, but corporations thrived. Today, from what I have heard, the healthcare system has deteriorated to the point that people who once saw a family doctor two blocks down the road are now REQUIRED to drive 30 miles for the same service (in the area where I used to live).

JoeyNormal

11-16-2002, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Frank
Joey:

When it comes to defending my race, family and their future, I fully advocate and support violence.

What does this mean? What do you deem to be defense? What do you deem to be offence?

JoeyNormal

11-16-2002, 02:06 PM

You accuse Socialism of being based around theft. That is false. The change is more fundamental than that. Under Socialism, one works not for material rewards, but social rewards. Under Socialism, economic equality is created by the removal and replacement of the fallcious market.

Snouter

11-16-2002, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Criminal
USA is the birthplace of modern Socialism. The Workingmans party was the worlds first democratic Socialist movement. In 1920 Eugene Debbs, a candidate for the US Socialist party won a million votes.

I don't understand how McCarthy is demonized by the left when there was such an obvious commie infiltration in the governmnet in the 20th century. Socialism arose in Europe in the 19th century after the French Revolution. Most of the early socialists resided in France, Germany, England and other Euro countries. In 1886, England hosted a conference of collectivists, and socialist organiziations such as the Socialist League, the Socialist Union, the Fabian Society, the Guild of St. Matthew, the Anarchist Groups of Freedom,the Land Restoration Leagues, the Land Nationalization Society and more.

We are living under a regeim of terror and its up to ordinary freedom lovers everywhere to restore the US to its former greatness.

The source of the terror is the barbaric Muslim radicals. I no longer have patience for their folly. Evil must be eradicated for the greater good.

Frank

11-16-2002, 02:30 PM

What does this mean?

I think I was quite clear in my meaning.

What do you deem to be defense?

To me, it means defending my race, wife and children from an attack or action which unjustly causes them pain, death, suffering or hardship.

What do you deem to be offence?

Anything from a simple shove to all out war. I would do whatever I must to defend my people, family and future generations.

JoeyNormal

11-16-2002, 02:37 PM

So, you will only use violence to defend Whites from a direct physical attack?

Frank

11-16-2002, 03:07 PM

So, you will only use violence to defend Whites from a direct physical attack?

Depends on the circumstances. I said: "To me, it means defending my race, wife and children from an attack or action which unjustly causes them pain, death, suffering or hardship."

Notice I said "attack or action." In a non-physical attack If I could seek remedy from the courts and/or government, I would try and do so, but if that is not a realistic option then I would do what I must to protect those that I love and hold dear.

Banky

11-16-2002, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Criminal
Anyone care to answer that? I am quite proud to state that I am socialist. Probibly a bit more of an Anarchist but I do think the there needs to be economic democracy as well as political democracy. I believe that people who are in need should be serviced. I think that the government should give a hand to those who dont have the basic needs. There should be money given to those who cannot find work. There should be health care available to those who need it. There should be jobs provided to the unemployed. Is it really that wrong to believe in this?

All over the world there are Socialist parties in party. In Germany the Social Democrats rule the country? Why does the United States see Socialist as being so evil?
Socialism is the economic identity of the system that is needed to bring about communism.

It is a taking from others by force, through government programs, to have the state act as nanny, and then have the powers of the state distribute as the state sees fit.

It is filled with half truths and misplaced emotions about those in trouble. It leads to a control by government that is similar to despotism and dictatorship.

It eventually will lead to a government control of all work and the companies that provide it.

In order to execute this type of control and distribution of power through government, it is necessary to take money through taxes and fees, often at rates that are unfair to those being taxed.

It is the economic system necessary to lead a country to Communism, a system of society where men are supposedly all equal, with no outside motives that are lustful of others goods or lives, and is supposedly altruistic.

Fortunately, history has shown us that this economic system, socialism, is only a taxtaxtax system, so we can look at all countries that have this form of government economics and we can avoid it. We can also dismiss communism, for men will never stop wanting what opthers have, nor will men ever stop trying to look out for number one, themselves.

Monster

11-16-2002, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Frank

Anything from a simple shove to all out war.

...are you saying you would kill another person simply because they shoved you? I hope you at least would take action that was proportionate to the action taken against you.

And, as another thought, if someone shoves you, it is NOT an offence to the "white race" Frank, it's a shove against you. Just you, not anybody other than you, and if you were to claim that your retaliation against someone who shoves you is defending "your race" I think I'd have to work very hard to not vomit or laugh, depending on circumstances.

Frank

11-16-2002, 03:56 PM

...are you saying you would kill another person simply because they shoved you?

No, I am not saying that at all.

I hope you at least would take action that was proportionate to the action taken against you.

That sounds fair.

And, as another thought, if someone shoves you, it is NOT an offence to the "white race" Frank

There was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought he was asking what "offence" I would take. That will teach me post before having my coffee :D

I was saying that my reaction to someone threatening the security of people, family and loved ones could range between a shove to war.

Sorry, I got my signals crossed.

And, as another thought, if someone shoves you, it is NOT an offence to the "white race" Frank, it's a shove against you.

Even then it depends on the situation. If I was in Zimbabwe and saw my white neighbour being assaulted by black "war veterans," I would view it as an attack on the "white race" and act accordingly.

Sorry for quoting it twice.

Just you, not anybody other than you, and if you were to claim that your retaliation against someone who shoves you is defending "your race" I think I'd have to work very hard to not vomit or laugh, depending on circumstances.

I am sure the idea of white racial unity is quite foreign to you.

Criminal

11-16-2002, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

why would someone work hard at something for no pay? socialism is all about taking from the people who produce to give to those who don't, which is really unfair.
Mainly because many people cannot get jobs that pay decently or provide them with benifits. This is why the temporary labor markett.

do you actually know what you are talking about or is this another example of calling people to demonstrate for a felon you know nothing about?
I do know what I am talking about.

Who is this "felon" I am supposedly calling for people to demonstrate about?

Criminal

11-16-2002, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Brian

:bs:

And what about the employees who are robbing thier employers? Are they just taking what they should be getting anyway? Socialism protects NOBODY. It simply redistributes wealth from those who make money, to those who do not. There is nothing fair about that.
I dont see many poor employers. Not at all. Have you ever seen a corporate CEO standing in an unemployment line?

Mean time all these big corporations get corporate welfare.

Cosmo

11-16-2002, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

Mainly because many people cannot get jobs that pay decently or provide them with benifits. This is why the temporary labor markett.

But that is only temporary.

Who can't get a decent paying job?

Cosmo

11-16-2002, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

Who is this "felon" I am supposedly calling for people to demonstrate about? Are you now denying you called for a demonstration to free a "political" prisoner who was really arrested for carrying a bomb?

Criminal

11-16-2002, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo
Are you now denying you called for a demonstration to free a "political" prisoner who was really arrested for carrying a bomb?
I did post a information about a demonstration to free a young man suspected of carrying explosives. He was not convicted of anything and therefor not a felon.

Criminal

11-16-2002, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

But that is only temporary.

Who can't get a decent paying job?
Ask BradleySJ that question.

Griff

11-16-2002, 06:12 PM

Criminal, I can relate to the "working class poor" thing, been there myself. Don't take this as condescending or preachy, OK?

I went thru a period when I had 3 jobs a day, too. None paid more than minimum wage, but I didn't want to have to rely on anybody else for my upkeep. Stuff eventually worked out, but at the time it seemed unfair that somebody would drive a 40k car or wear 100.00 jeans when I was scraping for Ramen noodles. With a degree in business, and a family. And a repo'd car.

Life just isn't fair. There's no good answers. But, once you've found your majic combination of smarts, hard work, etc. and can look yourself in the mirror and say "I've made it", you won't want to give it up, either. You may choose to share with those less fortunate than yourself, and that's cool, but you'll pick up more than a few leeches along the way. I don't know anyone who wants to be told that they have no choice but to finance somebody elses' learning curve or stagnation period.
Seems pretty unfair, right?

Taking away others' opportunities is just plain stealing, though.

eanax

11-17-2002, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

No...its not steeling. Its taxation. Taxation is mentioned in the Bible.

Jesus was approached by the Pharasees and asked if one should pay taxes and answered..

"Whose head is on the coin"
"Why Ceasers"
"Give onto Ceaser what is Ceasers and give onto the lord what is his".

Enough said

LOL! If you’re going to reference Jesus for your position, you need to apply a little more depth to your analysis as to what this passage in the Bible meant. The entire scenario is rooted in trickery – a trap. The whole point of Mark 12:13-17 / Matt 22:15-22 / Luke 20:20-26 was Jesus giving them the answer they didn’t seek. The “spies” intentions in asking Jesus this question was not sincere.

And, in reality, it would have been treason and the wrong battle for Jesus to take on because the power of Caesar’s rule was immense. Not paying tribute meant you would be dead (again, government applying force for compliance). Which also meant the death of his followers, and when no one lives to spread Jesus’ gospel…well, you get the point.

Taxation – as it exists today and in the many forms that it has existed before – IS stealing. It’s F-O-R-C-E-D upon folks (i.e. income tax, FICA, etc.) in so many insidious ways. The only tax (minor) that should be collected is a consumption tax (as our Founders intended). That way everyone helps pay for the basic services and needs of the country and localities (i.e. military, infrastructure).

Monster

11-17-2002, 01:23 PM

Okay, thanks for clearing that up with me, Frank.

86Dude

11-17-2002, 08:02 PM

Why bother trying to convince a socialist? It won't work. I will continue to hate their guts from the depths of my soul, just as they hate me. In the end many of the remaining REAL Americans will still have enough guns in the closet to resist their tyranny. So by all means go ahead socialist, try to destroy this nation as best you can. We WILL be waiting.

Cosmo

11-17-2002, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

Ask BradleySJ that question.

Whi is Bradley SJ?

Criminal

11-18-2002, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by 86Dude
Why bother trying to convince a socialist? It won't work. I will continue to hate their guts from the depths of my soul, just as they hate me. In the end many of the remaining REAL Americans will still have enough guns in the closet to resist their tyranny. So by all means go ahead socialist, try to destroy this nation as best you can. We WILL be waiting.
I am a socialist and I do not hate you my friend. I think hating someone for what they believe in is unamerican. To me this is what defines a Stalinist or Fascist. True americanism is about respecting freedom of speech.

Criminal

11-18-2002, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by Cosmo

Whi is Bradley SJ?
Because he said in the Whine Celler that he was unemployed for some time. I was saying that half jokingly but its really true that in todays economy there are many of us who are not employed.

Monster

11-18-2002, 11:48 AM

86Dude, was that an open advocation of violence?

Cosmo

11-18-2002, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Criminal

Because he said in the Whine Celler that he was unemployed for some time. I was saying that half jokingly but its really true that in todays economy there are many of us who are not employed.

Yes, but isn't that only temporary? And in terms of employment, todays economy is not that bad.

Monster

11-18-2002, 11:56 AM

For a war-time economy, true.

But wars don't last forever, Cosmo, and what's going to happen then?

Frank

11-18-2002, 12:02 PM

86Dude, was that an open advocation of violence?

He is speaking of violence in defence of his nation. That is acceptable violence.

86Dude

11-18-2002, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Criminal

I am a socialist and I do not hate you my friend. I think hating someone for what they believe in is unamerican. To me this is what defines a Stalinist or Fascist. True americanism is about respecting freedom of speech.

And I don't hate you either criminal, just those that are actively working to tear this country apart from the far left or the far right. I could probably name scumbags the top of my head. Free speech is one thing that I would definitely fight for, however, if that speech incites people to action in an effort to destroy America, it's constitution, our way of life, then HELL YES I will fight...to the death if necessary.

86Dude

11-18-2002, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Stage Monster
86Dude, was that an open advocation of violence?

Take it for what you will by I will explain further.

Violence and revolution are the only methods available to the oppressed once all other political reforms fails. If America was currently at the level of socialism seen in most european countries, such as Sweden, France, or Germany then it would be my duty as an American and a slave to oppose it by any means possible short of murdering innocent people. Unfortunately, socialism creeps in slowly over decades, slow changes. By the time it runs its course future generations will have lost all historical memory of a non socialist past. Looks like Kruschev may have been correct after all.

Cosmo

11-18-2002, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Stage Monster
For a war-time economy, true.

But wars don't last forever, Cosmo, and what's going to happen then?

This isn't a war time economy, certainly not yet. If we win the war, and we must, then things will get better, because technology will be challenged to solve our energy problems, and gov't will be challenged to solve our social problems.

Monster

11-18-2002, 03:46 PM

So it's not then. Just checking.

Cosmo

11-26-2002, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo
Basically socialists want to take what I earned and give it to some one who didn't earn it. Why would you think I wouldn't resent that?

How come this question was never answered?

Criminal

11-26-2002, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

How come this question was never answered?
My answer...um...because its just?

SpabSFW

11-27-2002, 01:40 AM

I have to agree with criminal. I hardly see where one guy pushing some paper should earn 12 mil a year, while a ditch digger earns $10 an hour. The discrepancy is too high, and interestingly, higher in this country than in ANY OTHER nonthirdworld country in the world, by a huge amount. Average wage differential between worker and ceo japan say, is 1 - 3 and here it's like 1 -25. ???? There is that much difference in work???

Explain that.

spab

Criminal

11-27-2002, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by SpabSFW
I have to agree with criminal. I hardly see where one guy pushing some paper should earn 12 mil a year, while a ditch digger earns $10 an hour. The discrepancy is too high, and interestingly, higher in this country than in ANY OTHER nonthirdworld country in the world, by a huge amount. Average wage differential between worker and ceo japan say, is 1 - 3 and here it's like 1 -25. ???? There is that much difference in work???

Explain that.

spab
Thank you for making my point.

I would add something. In Germany everybody gets a one month vacation. Its the law. In fact you can have the most menial job, cleaning floors or picking cabbage but you will still get a month off.

SpabSFW

11-27-2002, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by Criminal

Thank you for making my point.

I would add something. In Germany everybody gets a one month vacation. Its the law. In fact you can have the most menial job, cleaning floors or picking cabbage but you will still get a month off.

You are most welcome my friend. And we haven't even gotten to the part where we have the lowest taxes and the worst social services of that same set of nonthirdworld countries. But heh, might as well save something for tomorrow. The battle isn't going anywhere~

Hope you have a lovely rest of the evening.

spabber

PatTheAnarChrist

11-27-2002, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Frank

Another thing I find with these same people (and anarchists I have encountered) is that they are rabidly racist toward whites (I.E. Amerikkka) while they hide behind a mask of "tolerance" and "diversity." So obviously I will not view them as wonderful.

Quick post, although I've been only lurking for a long time and will most likely continue to do so (due to a busy schedule).

Anyways, FYI, I'm an anarchist, white, and not "rabidly racist towards whites". In fact, there's been some internal criticism in the "movement" (note that, same with with socialists, communists, democrats, capitalists, etc. there's many different ideologies within what is considered a single group) is composed almost entirely of white people who are expressing the opinions of white people. Maybe the anarchists you met were just of the "I listen to Rage Against the Machine so I am cool" variety...

Cosmo

11-27-2002, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Criminal

My answer...um...because its just?

How is it just to take from the producers to give to the non producers?

Cosmo

11-27-2002, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by SpabSFW
I have to agree with criminal. I hardly see where one guy pushing some paper should earn 12 mil a year, while a ditch digger earns $10 an hour. The discrepancy is too high, and interestingly, higher in this country than in ANY OTHER nonthirdworld country in the world, by a huge amount. Average wage differential between worker and ceo japan say, is 1 - 3 and here it's like 1 -25. ???? There is that much difference in work???

Explain that.

spab

But the ditch digger has a choice, no one is forcing him to dig and if he doesn't do it, someone else will. Digging is unskilled labor.

There is a huge difference in the amount, and in the type of work.

Criminal

11-27-2002, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

How is it just to take from the producers to give to the non producers?
Maybe because working is a privelige in the US. Maybe because its hard to find work. Maybe because part of the price one pays to live in a free society is to give up a little to help those who are really in need. Now I am not saying we should kill all the rich and powerful like they did in Cambodia or confiscate all wealth. All that I would ask is that we give a hand to those in need. Remember that it was God that gave people the ability to be productive and be able to make it for themselves. Isnt it also fair that we give to those who cannot make it?

Frank

11-27-2002, 11:01 PM

Remember that it was God that gave people the ability to be productive and be able to make it for themselves.

Mark 9:43-49 tells me I should cut my arms and legs off to avoid going to Hell, but I am not going to do it.

Sorry :topic: :D

SpabSFW

11-27-2002, 11:20 PM

It seems to me that it rather depends on how one views the U.S. as a whole.

Is it truly a bunch of greedy individuals trying to get ahead without ethics or morals by stepping all over others? (because this is what downsizing and corporations stopping medical coverage and underpaying and the like are doing) Or are we one big family?

Family analogy. If you have an extended family and someone in it gets hurt, for example breaks a leg, do you help that peson until they can work again? What if it is a permanent disability? And what if one branch of the family has a lot of advantages built in that another section of it doesn't have, the poor relations...

I think if you view America as a family, one would want to help other Americans achieve equality, justice and help in the worst of times.

Additionally, it's economically sound, as it is far cheaper to pay for HeadStart, to provide basic necessities to the indigent and so forth than it is to keep them in prisons at an exhorbent cost.

spabito

Cosmo

11-28-2002, 07:53 AM

Teaching a man to fish is good, to take somone elses fish to give it to him is not. Handing people freebies because they made bad choices is perpetuating the ability to continue to make bad choices. In the US, if somone is disabled they are provided for.

To continue the family analogy, I do not "give" anything to my idiot bro-in-law, he would rather spend money than earn it. I will pay for nmy nieces education because she is serious about it and will make the most of any opportunity. The point being, I can make the best choice on how help is to be given, not a bleeding heart who bases his standards on an emotional level, not a practical one.

I believe in giving people opportunities to succeed, not in guaranteeing their success.

If a guy doesn't like digging for a living, he should think about acquiring some skills. This would be far more productive than voting liberal in hopes of getting some of what the other guy earned.

SimoneAsLily

11-29-2002, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

But the ditch digger has a choice, no one is forcing him to dig and if he doesn't do it, someone else will. Digging is unskilled labor.

There is a huge difference in the amount, and in the type of work.

Explain the HUGE difference in work between the educators of our children and the 'professional' sports player.

Cosmo

11-29-2002, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by SimoneAsLily

Explain the HUGE difference in work between the educators of our children and the 'professional' sports player.

It is not the same type of work. Standards for educators are extremely low when compared to the talent required to be a sports celebrity. No school district fights to retain or acquire the best educator available, a sports franchise does, and they do it with money.

SpabSFW

11-29-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo
Teaching a man to fish is good, to take somone elses fish to give it to him is not. Handing people freebies because they made bad choices is perpetuating the ability to continue to make bad choices. In the US, if somone is disabled they are provided for.

To continue the family analogy, I do not "give" anything to my idiot bro-in-law, he would rather spend money than earn it. I will pay for nmy nieces education because she is serious about it and will make the most of any opportunity. The point being, I can make the best choice on how help is to be given, not a bleeding heart who bases his standards on an emotional level, not a practical one.

I believe in giving people opportunities to succeed, not in guaranteeing their success.

If a guy doesn't like digging for a living, he should think about acquiring some skills. This would be far more productive than voting liberal in hopes of getting some of what the other guy earned.

Have you ever lived in a city full of very educated people with few jobs available to them? I lived in a city where topless clubs wrote ads that required college, and that history or poliecon graduates worked as night managers at 7-11.

Even assuming all people had equal opportunity for a high level of education, (part of which by the way starts with hopes and expectations instilled in childhood - a difficult thing to achieve within the truly poor), eventually you would end up having too many chiefs and no indians.

So you have 500 guys with MBAs and a factory. Which 5 get to be CEO, head of marketing etc? Who is going to make the actual product all these "educated" people make the money off of???

My take, the person who creates the product or provides the service should receive more money that somebody who sits behind a desk all day.

Ultimately the owner of an automotive shop is useless if he can't fix a car. Who not pay the mechanic well?

Before industrialization, many producers owned the gear by which they made products and sold those products thus receiving wages for their skill and effort. With the advent of factories, only a few people began to own the tools of production and workers quality of life dramatically decreased from there. Workes in effect became only one more cost of product.

There was a surge in the 50's and early 60s that involved companies treating workers like family. People came to work somewhere and stayed until they retired, and received benefits like health, dental, vacations and retirement pension. THIS was partially responsible for the "Happy Days" of those times. Workers who were valued and earned a decent wage were not only happier, more productive and less stressed, but they could also afford to be consumers and keep other American businesses afloat.

This attitude has since changed considerably. Look at cutting healthy benefits, firing people just before they can be eligible for retirement, downsizing and so forth.

Think too about the Great Depression, and the cycle created by unemployement then.

Now today is different. American corporations are run by greedy grasping selfish shortsighted fools for the most part, who have no loyalty to anyone besides their stockholders... ergo creating more wealth for the wealthy.

With globalization, no one cares if most Americans can buy their products, they just sell them overseas. Likewise if Americans as cost of product want a decent wage, who cares? Just take it to Thailand, produce it there.

Personally, I find all this appalling and condusive to creating a world-wide elite and a world-wide lower class.

spab

Cosmo

11-29-2002, 06:41 PM

What kind of job do you think a Polysci grad is qualified to do?

I paid my skilled help well, ran a very profitable company, with a very low turnover. By any measure I was successful. I can tell you it is harder to hire a really good desk jockey than a really good machinist. That is what determines a pay scale, that and how much value an individual can add to my business.

What is it you think someone who sits at a desk does? Do you have any business experience? What I mean is, do you really understand business, what you are talking about? Your analogy about an automotive shop owner isn't true. The owner must know how to hire train, keep books, manage inventory, customers, advertize, and so on. He doesn't have to know how to fix a transmission, he can hire someone to do that.

When you go to school, and you pick your major, and you pick somethimg you like but there is no demand for, you have to expect to have a tough time in the job market.

I may have 500 MBAs vying for an entry position with my company, I will have 5000 welders or machinists, partly because plants are closing, there is no shortage of skilled labor.

eanax

11-29-2002, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by SpabSFW
Have you ever lived in a city full of very educated people with few jobs available to them? I lived in a city where topless clubs wrote ads that required college, and that history or poliecon graduates worked as night managers at 7-11.

Yeah, a college town. Guess what? People M-O-V-E to where the jobs are. Have skills, will travel…

Originally posted by SpabSFW
My take, the person who creates the product or provides the service should receive more money that somebody who sits behind a desk all day.

Let me clue you in (and I suggest that you absorb and think about this truism): “He who knows how will always work for he who knows why.”

Originally posted by SpabSFW
Ultimately the owner of an automotive shop is useless if he can't fix a car. Who not pay the mechanic well?

The vast majority of folks who open up their own businesses (i.e. car repair or some such) already KNOW their craft/service. Capiche? The owner is the first employee. The OWNER is taking the risk. The fact is as their business grows so must your staff to meet the demand for your services. You’re assuming the mechanic isn’t being paid well. Your argument is specious to the core…

Originally posted by SpabSFW
Before industrialization, many producers owned the gear by which they made products and sold those products thus receiving wages for their skill and effort. With the advent of factories, only a few people began to own the tools of production and workers quality of life dramatically decreased from there. Workes in effect became only one more cost of product.

Before industrialization, this nation was 90% agrarian. Of course they owned their tools and farms. But many also borrowed from banks to get started or to expand their businesses.

What’s your point? The economy changed due to inventions and advances in technology. What’s new? There used to be ice deliverymen as well, then the advent of electric-powered refrigeration made their jobs obsolete. You learn a new skill and adapt or move on to other types of labor.

Originally posted by SpabSFW
There was a surge in the 50's and early 60s that involved companies treating workers like family. People came to work somewhere and stayed until they retired, and received benefits like health, dental, vacations and retirement pension. THIS was partially responsible for the "Happy Days" of those times. Workers who were valued and earned a decent wage were not only happier, more productive and less stressed, but they could also afford to be consumers and keep other American businesses afloat.

There was a “surge”?

This practice also became very costly. Why do you think businesses have limited pensions? I haven’t worked for a company since I left college that didn’t offer health, dental, 401k, and vacation. WTF are you talking about?

Originally posted by SpabSFW
This attitude has since changed considerably. Look at cutting healthy benefits, firing people just before they can be eligible for retirement, downsizing and so forth.

Think too about the Great Depression, and the cycle created by unemployement then.

Now today is different. American corporations are run by greedy grasping selfish shortsighted fools for the most part, who have no loyalty to anyone besides their stockholders... ergo creating more wealth for the wealthy.

With globalization, no one cares if most Americans can buy their products, they just sell them overseas. Likewise if Americans as cost of product want a decent wage, who cares? Just take it to Thailand, produce it there.

Personally, I find all this appalling and condusive to creating a world-wide elite and a world-wide lower class.

spab

Blah, blah, blah. Your position is terribly pedestrian, and chock-full of assumptions and sweeping generalizations.

This is the typical rhetoric used by Leftists all the time. Do you actually have anything original to add to the conversation? No one is entitled to a job – NO ONE. It’s not called for in the U.S. Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence outlines one of our Rights as “...the pursuit of Happiness,” not a right to work.

Why do Leftists always play the victim?

SimoneAsLily

11-30-2002, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

It is not the same type of work. Standards for educators are extremely low when compared to the talent required to be a sports celebrity. No school district fights to retain or acquire the best educator available, a sports franchise does, and they do it with money.

You have proved my point about what a screwed up upside down world this is. Takes REAL talent to throw a ball. Takes real TALENT to run around with helmets, shoulder pads, knee pads and the like in order to get jumped on, beat up, just to score a touchdown. WHoopee. I am just so impressed.

SpabSFW

11-30-2002, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo
What kind of job do you think a Polysci grad is qualified to do?

I paid my skilled help well, ran a very profitable company, with a very low turnover. By any measure I was successful. I can tell you it is harder to hire a really good desk jockey than a really good machinist. That is what determines a pay scale, that and how much value an individual can add to my business.

What is it you think someone who sits at a desk does? Do you have any business experience? What I mean is, do you really understand business, what you are talking about? Your analogy about an automotive shop owner isn't true. The owner must know how to hire train, keep books, manage inventory, customers, advertize, and so on. He doesn't have to know how to fix a transmission, he can hire someone to do that.

When you go to school, and you pick your major, and you pick somethimg you like but there is no demand for, you have to expect to have a tough time in the job market.

I may have 500 MBAs vying for an entry position with my company, I will have 5000 welders or machinists, partly because plants are closing, there is no shortage of skilled labor.

So basically what you're saying is that you're a parasite who lives off other people's labor. I'd love to see what you consider fair pay, you tell me.

Tell you what, I know you're position based on your post. It's that if someone is smart enough to get away with fuxing over others, that that is a skill in itself.... you're just so much smarter. It never crosses your mind that what you really are is ethically and morally bankrupt. That being able to do something, doesn't mean you ought to.

I can go blow away people in dark alleys or rob banks and maybe get away with it, but that would be considered criminal. I can sell bad stock to people too, or manipulate the stock market with inside information and that wouldn't make me smart. Even if I got away with it, I would still be a sorry excuse of a human being and a criminal albeit an uncaught one and greatly admired for my "business sense".

The difference in status between the rich and the criminals is often only defined by the amount they steal, my opinion. Robbing workers of the benefits of their labors is still theft.

We value the wrong things in this country. Some might say it has something to do with the biblical concepts in Revelations. I won't go that far, but it wouldn't surprise me.

And since the average age on this board is like, 20, I am mildly curious as to your business ownership status. Also curious to the past tense of this venture. Feel free to share.

Oh, and send one of your now defunct deskjocks, many of whom are being downsized out due to Republican economic policy finally hitting home. I have a lawn he can mow for $20.

spab

RedLine99

11-30-2002, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by SpabSFW I have a lawn he can mow for $20.

spab

Is this the current union rate?

SpabSFW

11-30-2002, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by RedLine99

Is this the current union rate?

LOL

:)

spabwell

Cosmo

11-30-2002, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by SpabSFW

So basically what you're saying is that you're a parasite who lives off other people's labor. I'd love to see what you consider fair pay, you tell me.

Tell you what, I know you're position based on your post. It's that if someone is smart enough to get away with fuxing over others, that that is a skill in itself.... you're just so much smarter. It never crosses your mind that what you really are is ethically and morally bankrupt. That being able to do something, doesn't mean you ought to.

I can go blow away people in dark alleys or rob banks and maybe get away with it, but that would be considered criminal. I can sell bad stock to people too, or manipulate the stock market with inside information and that wouldn't make me smart. Even if I got away with it, I would still be a sorry excuse of a human being and a criminal albeit an uncaught one and greatly admired for my "business sense".

The difference in status between the rich and the criminals is often only defined by the amount they steal, my opinion. Robbing workers of the benefits of their labors is still theft.

We value the wrong things in this country. Some might say it has something to do with the biblical concepts in Revelations. I won't go that far, but it wouldn't surprise me.

And since the average age on this board is like, 20, I am mildly curious as to your business ownership status. Also curious to the past tense of this venture. Feel free to share.

Oh, and send one of your now defunct deskjocks, many of whom are being downsized out due to Republican economic policy finally hitting home. I have a lawn he can mow for $20.

spab

I am 55 yrs old and retired. I was both a GM of a small co for someone else, and owned my own co until I sold it almost threee years ago. I am always happy to share my experience to help somone else.

I don't understand at all how you can conclude I am morally bankrupt, unless of course you are a communist/socialist. Could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

If you are twenty, than you are confirming you know nothing about business, correct?

I suppose that also means you can't explain how Republican policy is putting people out of work.

BTW, I don'y know any successful people who steal or stole, if they did I wouldn't associate with them. Its called standards.

SpabSFW

11-30-2002, 09:45 PM

It's like trying to talk to neos, pointless and irriating. You've already stated your position. If someone is "smart" enough to figure out how to get by off the labor of others, then they are somehow also "deserving" to be rewarded as such.

What can I say to argue with that?

But since you're into Social Darwinism and might makes right regardless then I guess you also don't have a problem with being blown away by someone with a 9mm. I mean, might does make right yes? Whether physical or economic? After all, we're all animals, right, mammals... law of the jungle.

It's not like we have a spiritual side to consider, or that life is much nicer around people who do get that.

heh

spabbio

Cosmo

11-30-2002, 10:07 PM

You have yet to answer ONE of my questions, and babble in response.

Might doesn't make right.

What is a neo?

eanax

12-01-2002, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Spazbo
It's like trying to talk to neos, pointless and irriating. You've already stated your position. If someone is "smart" enough to figure out how to get by off the labor of others, then they are somehow also "deserving" to be rewarded as such.

What can I say to argue with that?

But since you're into Social Darwinism and might makes right regardless then I guess you also don't have a problem with being blown away by someone with a 9mm. I mean, might does make right yes? Whether physical or economic? After all, we're all animals, right, mammals... law of the jungle.

It's not like we have a spiritual side to consider, or that life is much nicer around people who do get that.

heh

spabbio

Look, Spazbo, it's abundantly clear that you are a budding Socialist who is - more likely than not - in college. Right? (It explains your mindset...)

And based on your diatribes aimed at Cosmo, it's also obvious that you know about z-e-r-o when it comes to the reality of the business/professional world.

I noticed that you dutifully avoided my comments about your inane ramblings. Typical...

Remember this, Spazbo: "He who knows how will always work for he who knows why."

SimoneAsLily

12-01-2002, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by eanax

Remember this, Spazbo: "He who knows how will always work for he who knows why."

Well I know how and I know why. But I still ended up being the the one who worked for someone else. IMO the large corporations care very little for the worker. It is all about the bottom line

SpabSFW wote earlier:

Now today is different. American corporations are run by greedy grasping selfish shortsighted fools for the most part, who have no loyalty to anyone besides their stockholders...ergo creating more wealth for the wealthy.

I worked for the same large corporation all my working life (40 years). I witnessed first hand the erosion of benefits to the 'worker'. What these corporations pay for these benefits is peanuts compared to the profit made from the labors of the workers. Pension?Laughable. Try living on it.

If you have not thought about affordable insurance after retirement better start doing it now because...

Many insurance companies won't cover you if you are on Medicare.

Another example: the pharmeceutical companies. Explain to me if you can how the same drugs can cost so much less in Canada than here in America.

It is not about looking for a hand out. It is not about wanting the rich to give to the poor(although they should). It is about recognizing the value of the ditch digger as a human being doing an honest days work. Compare that to some of the sleaze corp CEO's whose only interest is in lining their own pockets. I could live the rest of my life on what some of them earn in a year. They are so valuable. HAH

SpabSFW

12-01-2002, 02:35 PM

and double HAH indeed.

Sadly, I have been sidetracked by harmless neonuttzies from the true dangers... soulless people who rape America.

hehehe

spabdellio

SpabSFW

12-01-2002, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by eanax
The vast majority of folks who open up their own businesses (i.e. car repair or some such) already KNOW their craft/service. Capiche? The owner is the first employee. The OWNER is taking the risk. The fact is as their business grows so must your staff to meet the demand for your services. You’re assuming the mechanic isn’t being paid well. Your argument is specious to the core…

Before industrialization, this nation was 90% agrarian. Of course they owned their tools and farms. But many also borrowed from banks to get started or to expand their businesses.

What’s your point? The economy changed due to inventions and advances in technology. What’s new? There used to be ice deliverymen as well, then the advent of electric-powered refrigeration made their jobs obsolete. You learn a new skill and adapt or move on to other types of labor.

This practice also became very costly. Why do you think businesses have limited pensions? I haven’t worked for a company since I left college that didn’t offer health, dental, 401k, and vacation. WTF are you talking about?

Blah, blah, blah. Your position is terribly pedestrian, and chock-full of assumptions and sweeping generalizations.

This is the typical rhetoric used by Leftists all the time. Do you actually have anything original to add to the conversation? No one is entitled to a job – NO ONE. It’s not called for in the U.S. Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence outlines one of our Rights as “...the pursuit of Happiness,” not a right to work.

Why do Leftists always play the victim?

I didn't respond to this boring diatribe earlier because it was a bunch of boring blah blah drivel from someone who is clearly out of touch with reality.

I'm usually picky about who I bother to take my time posting to, but I'll leave you with this.

How secure do you think your job is going to be with massive unemployment in this country? No right to a job? Maybe not. But take a look at countries where people can't work and they foment revolution. Rich fux are going to be the first to die. It won't just be your job at stake. And let me tell you already the rich have to live behind walls with guards in Florida, don't they? I wonder why.

And sadly, you people don't get it. You think, well if I just have more money I can stay safe from these poor desperate people. But if you hired them and paid them a decent wage you'd be tons safer, hence the 50s and 60s. People who have an investment in a society have something to lose too, and they will neither sacrifice their hopes or security through crime, nor revolution. But stop "welfare as we know it", oh and my favorite part - ARM them with semi-automatic weapons, and underpay that "cost of product" so badly their kids do without food and medical care and see what you get.

We just had a rash of firing here, due to downsizing, where people of you "ilk" are suddenly stuck with $1400 a month mortgage on houses, but no job and no one likely to hire them. They don't understand why they should lose that house, or sell their cars or goods of value or have to take jobs that pay $6 - $18 but that is what is ahead for them, because this mess is just now reaching that level of middle class.

Let's tell them this then, huh "... made their jobs obsolete. You learn a new skill and adapt or move on to other types of labor. "

hahahaha

See, the thing is the rich can't steal from the poor, because they don't have anything. They steal from the working class, the lower middle class and increasingly from the upper middle class.

Additionally, very few people have the slightest clue "How Rich is Rich" (and yes, that's a book, a good read too so you might want to look for it). If they did, I suspect very few people would choose to vote to allow these people to take it all, just because they drop a few leftover pennies on the other stockholders.

Whatever, it won't take me telling you what's going to happen with globalization making new inroads up the social ladder in increasing levels in this country.

You'll eventually figure it out anyway.

Welcome to the lower class bud.

spabbio

SpabSFW

12-01-2002, 03:10 PM

And I'm not a 20 year old, though I play one on T.V.

:cool:

spabist

Criminal

12-01-2002, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by eanax

Look, Spazbo, it's abundantly clear that you are a budding Socialist who is - more likely than not - in college. Right? (It explains your mindset...)

And based on your diatribes aimed at Cosmo, it's also obvious that you know about z-e-r-o when it comes to the reality of the business/professional world.

I noticed that you dutifully avoided my comments about your inane ramblings. Typical...

Remember this, Spazbo: "He who knows how will always work for he who knows why."
Might I step in here....

I am 41 and have been out of College for 15 years. I have worked in the business world. I do work for a living and I can tell you I know the realities of the business and professional world. I have a Novell CNE and I am in the information technology industry. I do know what I am talking about when I say that the system is totally screwed up. We have situations where working people cannot afford insurance and are going broke. I think this is totally wrong. I am most certainly proud to call myself a socialist.

Now you ask how is the Republican Party putting people out of work? By forcing these trade treaties down peoples throats. Allowing manufacturing jobs to go to Mexico and China.

supportTHEezln

12-01-2002, 09:36 PM

people will just ignore that '41' part. they'll ignore your whole post now because they got shown.

Cosmo

12-01-2002, 10:35 PM

Onre of the reasons I think socialists are losers is because of the above ( I am not including the naive young because MOST, not all will grow up).

I too thought the boss I worked for was an ass and the company even dumber. It was the single biggest motivator for me, I swore I could better if I were in charge, and you know what? I did quite well. When I bought my company it had five employees, when I sold it it had over 50. I created jobs and I created opportunities for people. I quickly learned that there were a lot of people like me, people who made things better, they didn't whine and moan and become socialists. Instead they make positive contributions to business and the community. The world is run by people, if good people do what they must and what they should, there would be no need for socialism and its evil cousin, communism.

SpabSFW

12-01-2002, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo
Onre of the reasons I think socialists are losers is because of the above ( I am not including the naive young because MOST, not all will grow up).

It's rather irrelevant, but I am neither young nor naive and I seriously doubt I will ever grow out of being empathetic to others. If I ever become what I despise, I hope someone shoots me and puts me out of my misery.

Originally posted by Cosmo

The world is run by people, if good people do what they must and what they should, there would be no need for socialism and its evil cousin, communism.

And this my friend makes my point. Indeed, where are the "good people" doing what they should? Why is there an increasing and increasingly frightening split between the rich and the poor? Why do people have to work 2 jobs each to make a very low standard of living, as the "working poor"? Doesn't this signal to you as it does to me that there is something dramatically wrong here?

And FYI bud, I'm neither a socialist nor a communist but one of those garden variety liberals.

Heh.

spabicite

Cosmo

12-02-2002, 07:58 AM

Stil have not answered any of my questions.

A liberal is a socialist.

We do have a permanent and growing underclass and one of the reasons is liberalism. Go to any innercity and the common denominator will be that it is run by liberals. It gives them power to keep people crippled. The other common denominator is trhe destruction of our manufacturing base, the destruction of our skilled work force. Keeping the floodgates of third world immigration open ensures the supply of cheap unskilled labor, keeping wages down, insuring a good future supply of voters for liberals.

But you do concede you are clueless about business, correct?

Corporate Avenger

12-02-2002, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by Cosmo
Stil have not answered any of my questions.

A liberal is a socialist.

We do have a permanent and growing underclass and one of the reasons is liberalism. Go to any innercity and the common denominator will be that it is run by liberals. It gives them power to keep people crippled. The other common denominator is trhe destruction of our manufacturing base, the destruction of our skilled work force. Keeping the floodgates of third world immigration open ensures the supply of cheap unskilled labor, keeping wages down, insuring a good future supply of voters for liberals.

But you do concede you are clueless about business, correct?

Do you honestly believe this hysterical nonsense you spew???

Do you even have a clue who is responsible for destroying our manufacturing base? Obviously not..

Cosmo

12-02-2002, 08:33 AM

YES

YES

eanax

12-02-2002, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by SAL
Well I know how and I know why. But I still ended up being the the one who worked for someone else. IMO the large corporations care very little for the worker. It is all about the bottom line.

If you know how and can run a business better and provide a better product and service (i.e. because you know why), then how come you aren’t doing so?

Are you saying that you don’t want to take the risk and responsibility necessary to get the job done?

Originally posted by Spazbo
I didn't respond to this boring diatribe earlier because it was a bunch of boring blah blah drivel from someone who is clearly out of touch with reality.

Yawn…

Originally posted by Spazbo
I'm usually picky about who I bother to take my time posting to, but I'll leave you with this.

Oh please. Appeals to your pseudo-intellectual elitism only prove that you dutifully ignore direct challenges to your position, as wanting as it is.

Originally posted by Spazbo
How secure do you think your job is going to be with massive unemployment in this country?

ROTFLMGDFAO @ You!!! “Massive unemployment”? Oh sheot! You’re DA’s new King (or Queen) of hyperbole and superficial speculation. No one who frequents this board has ever experienced “massive unemployment” as a citizen in this nation.

Originally posted by Spazbo
No right to a job? Maybe not.

No, it’s called a F-A-C-T. Facts are what Leftists/liberals/Socialists have a hard time with, and you are no different…

Originally posted by Spazbo
But take a look at countries where people can't work and they foment revolution. Rich fux are going to be the first to die. It won't just be your job at stake. And let me tell you already the rich have to live behind walls with guards in Florida, don't they? I wonder why.

The issue is the U.S., not other countries. By the way, who do you think employs the masses in the private sector? Who creates jobs in the private sector?

Originally posted by Spazbo
And sadly, you people don't get it. You think, well if I just have more money I can stay safe from these poor desperate people. But if you hired them and paid them a decent wage you'd be tons safer, hence the 50s and 60s. People who have an investment in a society have something to lose too, and they will neither sacrifice their hopes or security through crime, nor revolution. But stop "welfare as we know it", oh and my favorite part - ARM them with semi-automatic weapons, and underpay that "cost of product" so badly their kids do without food and medical care and see what you get.

WTF are you yammering about?

Originally posted by Spazbo
We just had a rash of firing here, due to downsizing, where people of you "ilk" are suddenly stuck with $1400 a month mortgage on houses, but no job and no one likely to hire them. They don't understand why they should lose that house, or sell their cars or goods of value or have to take jobs that pay $6 - $18 but that is what is ahead for them, because this mess is just now reaching that level of middle class.

So? Take some responsibility and P-L-A-N your personal finances. Think about the choices you’re making in life because they WILL affect you whether you like or dislike the results.

Playing the victim is all Leftists do. They take zero initiative in being responsible for their own well being. Time to grow up…

Originally posted by Spazbo
Let's tell them this then, huh "... made their jobs obsolete. You learn a new skill and adapt or move on to other types of labor.

I would. Industries change, economies change. There’s nothing new in this. Maybe you and your fellow Leftists should start reading more about economics and economic history, and explore what it means to be fiscally responsible with your personal finances and the career paths you take. Gee, what a concept!!!

Originally posted by Spazbo
See, the thing is the rich can't steal from the poor, because they don't have anything. They steal from the working class, the lower middle class and increasingly from the upper middle class.

Horsesheot. The folks who actually earn a lot pay the taxes in this country. The Top 25% of taxpayers, which is folks making $55,255 or more a year pay 84% of the total personal Federal Income Tax!!! (And those are the latest stats from the IRS. See link below…)

http://www.ntu.org/links/FAQs/whopaysincometaxes.php3

Originally posted by Spazbo
Additionally, very few people have the slightest clue "How Rich is Rich" (and yes, that's a book, a good read too so you might want to look for it). If they did, I suspect very few people would choose to vote to allow these people to take it all, just because they drop a few leftover pennies on the other stockholders.

Whatever, it won't take me telling you what's going to happen with globalization making new inroads up the social ladder in increasing levels in this country.

You'll eventually figure it out anyway.

Welcome to the lower class bud.

Spabbio

You truly are laughable. The facts say otherwise. You’re full of superficial speculation and contorted economic and social analysis. It all fits your Leftist talking points just fine. But, guess what? People aren’t buying it because it’s complete bunk.

Originally posted by Criminal
We have situations where working people cannot afford insurance and are going broke. I think this is totally wrong.

You’re making emotional appeals here (a hallmark of Leftists). The problem with your appeal is that you’re not asking the right question, a basic question…W-H-Y are these people going broke? I know the answer, but I want to see if you can figure this question out.

Originally posted by Criminal
I am most certainly proud to call myself a socialist.

That’s obvious…