because you said I could point out the questions that troubled me about the Bible and Christianity. :)


This thread is basically for you and I, Buttercup, because we discussed this in a PM and this is the reason I am posting it here and not in Serious Debate. Of course anyone is free to answer and if it gets to that point, it will probably be moved. :p

NOTE: I am not looking to become a Christian again, these are just questions I asked myself about Christianity.

1) Are there levels of sin?

Is lying just as 'bad' as murder?

2) How can I be sure that the bible is factual and entirely inspired by God?

The Hindus believe the Vedas are inspired by God, same as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's believe that their books are inspired by God as well.

3) As a human being, what is my ultimate role in relation to God?

Each religion has their view on the relationships with God, how can you be sure that yours is right?

1) IN one sense, yes all sin is equal in that it's wages are always death. Whether it is lying, or murdering. In the OT God had differnet penalties for different sins, and I believe motive was also taken into consideration such as a starving person stealing a loaf of bread I believe was punished less harshly than someone who stole just "because". however, if the NT is correct, as I believe it to be, ANY unforgiven sin will land you in a place apart from God.

2) Read it and investigate for yourself. Will you ever have 100% definative proof? no. You will need to read it, investigate and decide for yourself if the evidence supports a faith in it.
I believe it does.

3) I believe our ultimate prupose in life is to love God. That's it. Maybe others will disagree.


RWZ

Thank you RWZ. :) I was actually a Christian for many many years and I believed everything to be true that was written but the more I learn, the more I investigate.. the less I believed the bible to be handed down from God. Thats just me. I come from a very religious family background, on my father's side. My father studied to be a minister and my grand father WAS a minister..so... Im not unfamiliar with text and the belief system. I just have many many doubts.

Buttercup and I discussed some things in a PM regarding my changing belief system and I had told her that I had many questions and she was kind enough to offer help in possibly finding biblical answers.

I have my doubts about the bible being handed down from God, not JUST because the hindu religious texts existed long before the bible, but ALSO because of the fact that the bible was written soo much later. How is it that God could wait so incredibly long before handing down this information. And maybe it wasnt God causing the hold up (though if he is powerful and omniscient then..well, he would) but that it took man this long to put it to print. Quite possibly the laws and such were all oral such as the Vedas, I dont know.

:)

- Seeker

I'm glad you posted your questions, seeker. :)


1) I think RWZ did a good job in answering this, but I'll answer it too. It depends on what sense you're talking about. When it comes to salvation, the degree of sin doesn't matter, because we have ALL sinned at one time or another, and the wages of any unforgiven sin is separation from God. (Romans 6:23) (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM%2B6%3A23&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=8&y=5) So if we go to our deathbeds with unforgiven sin, still rejecting God, then we will have to pay the price ourselves.

It doesn't have to be that way. The good news is (the second half of Romans 6:23) - but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

So when it comes to salvation, the degree of sin is irrelevant. But that doesn't mean that all sins are equal. I do believe that (and this can be backed up scripturally) there are different levels of sin. So a person who has lived a somewhat decent life, but never accepted God's grace will not get the same fate as someone like Hitler.

Did that answer your question?



2) There are many reasons to believe that the Bible is factual and divinely inspired. For the last 2000 years, nonbelievers have tried to discredit and disprove the Bible. And you know what? It is still the most read, studied, quoted and best-selling book of all time, hands down. There is a reason for that.

For one, the Bible has proven itself to be historically and geographically accurate. Archeology has corroborated the Bible time and time again, and an archeological find has never contradicted the Bible.

I've talked about this next one on other threads. There are hundreds and hundreds of fulfilled Biblical prophecies. As a matter of fact, according to Dr. Hugh Ross, there are aprox. 2000 fulfilled prophecies. Mathematicians have calculated the odds of a small number of prophecies coming true by pure chance, and even those odds were so astronomical, that it is basically impossible. That's just a small number of fulfilled prophecies -- there is a HUGE number of fulfilled prophecies.

There are lots of other reasons, that when all put together, are why I believe the Bible is God's word.

The unity of the Bible -- it was written by more than 30 different people, from all walks of life, over a span of more than 1500 years, in three different languages... yet there is amazing unity, and it all tells the same story.

It's survival. As I said before, the Bible has not only endured 2000 years of attacks, people picking it apart and trying to discredit it, but it still comes out on top. So survival maybe isn't the right word here. The fact that it is the most influential book of all time despite all the 'haters' is an amazing thing. And that leads to the next reason...

The influence of the book. The Bible has influenced and changed millions of lives. Actually, I should say Jesus - God's word has transformed millions of lives. I've seen it with my own eyes... people I've met that were amazingly transformed by Christianity. I don't know of any other faith that compares to this -- a huge number of people who have dramatically changed their lives for the better.

There are more things I could talk about. If you have any doubts about how the Bible has been translated and preserved or handed down, then I have a book I could send you, if you want. It's really good, and it talks about some of the common misconceptions about the Bible, and clears up those misconceptions.


3) I think RWZ is right here, too. :) To love God and to love one another.

Marie - God wants you, I think he is knocking on your door... and it is up to you to open the door and let Him in. I know that your beliefs have changed, but as I said on the other thread, I'm going to keep praying for you. God loves you and He wants you back. I hope you continue to search for the truth, and keep your mind and heart open.

Sorry for the late reply. Did those answers help at all? :) Like I said in my PM, I know that there are answers to all questions... and some of them we may not know now, but I think we will eventually.

Love,
cindy

Actually it wasnt a question regarding salvation, but instead of degrees of sin. There is a passage in the book of Matthew regarding the great commandment being..such and such and so and so. I feel moronic because I cant site the passage outright, but I know its in the 20's somewhere. lol (Im lame :p)

So basically, the idea is.. If you are in a situation, say Hitler and the Nazis and you are asked if you are hiding jews.. do you answer in the affirmative because you should not lie.. or do you lie to keep their lives free from peril? I answered (this was asked of me recently this is why I thought of it:) ) that I would not lie...If God's commandment is that we shall not lie, then you dont lie. Surely there are no levels of sin, sin is sin. So even in the case of releasing Jews into peril (I was told I was an instrument in their death in this case :| and not preserving life as I should) I should not lie. There can be no levels of sin, else that would make God a moral relativist, right?

And you know what? It is still the most read, studied, quoted and best-selling book of all time, hands down. There is a reason for that.

For one, the Bible has proven itself to be historically and geographically accurate. Archeology has corroborated the Bible time and time again, and an archeological find has never contradicted the Bible.

For me, this doesnt prove a thing. (sincerely do not mean that in a negative way at all, cmc. :) Honestly) Simply because a book is historically accurate in its mention of times and places and people does not prove to me that it is divinely inspired.

There are hundreds and hundreds of fulfilled Biblical prophecies. As a matter of fact, according to Dr. Hugh Ross, there are aprox. 2000 fulfilled prophecies. Mathematicians have calculated the odds of a small number of prophecies coming true by pure chance, and even those odds were so astronomical, that it is basically impossible. That's just a small number of fulfilled prophecies -- there is a HUGE number of fulfilled prophecies.


There is a Hindu religious text titled Ramayana which is also claimed to be divinely inspired (as are the Vedas and Upanishads :) ) and this book is an entire prophecy of the coming of Ram. :) Ram was said to have walked the earth and his entire life was lived out exactly as the Ramayana predicted.. 300-500 years earlier.

There have been many prophecies of messiahs, though not termed Messiah and they are said to have walked the planet. In fact the Hindus do not deny that Jesus was an avatar, they say it is a possibility because Vishnu takes many forms and comes to earth when we are headed for destruction. This, in my mind regarding Hinduism, does not make me believe in the validity of Hinudism either... I was just making mention. :)

I have a book I could send you, if you want. It's really good, and it talks about some of the common misconceptions about the Bible, and clears up those misconceptions.

Is this the book titled, "Evidence that demands a verdict" ?

Marie - God wants you, I think he is knocking on your door... and it is up to you to open the door and let Him in. I know that your beliefs have changed, but as I said on the other thread, I'm going to keep praying for you. God loves you and He wants you back. I hope you continue to search for the truth, and keep your mind and heart open.


:)

Thank you for the sentiments and reply. I appreciate it. I have many more things that have caused me to question when they come to me I will post them. :)

Again, Im not looking to return to christianity, just pointing about my questions. :)

Thank you.

- Seeker

God's knocking on the door marie, it isnt jehovah witnesses so U dont have to pretend your not home!

Originally posted by seekerofvisions
Actually it wasnt a question regarding salvation, but instead of degrees of sin. There is a passage in the book of Matthew regarding the great commandment being..such and such and so and so. I feel moronic because I cant site the passage outright, but I know its in the 20's somewhere. lol (Im lame :p)

So basically, the idea is.. If you are in a situation, say Hitler and the Nazis and you are asked if you are hiding jews.. do you answer in the affirmative because you should not lie.. or do you lie to keep their lives free from peril? I answered (this was asked of me recently this is why I thought of it ) that I would not lie...If God's commandment is that we shall not lie, then you dont lie. Surely there are no levels of sin, sin is sin. So even in the case of releasing Jews into peril (I was told I was an instrument in their death in this case and not preserving life as I should) I should not lie. There can be no levels of sin, else that would make God a moral relativist, right?

Well, it's true that all sin is wrong.... but I also think it's true that some things are more evil than others. I think that is backed up, scripturally. And no, it doesn't make God a moral relativist. Moral relativists believe there is no absolute standard for right and wrong. With God, there is that absolute standard, or 'measuring stick'.

But the bottom line is (again), we have ALL sinned, so when it comes to salvation, the amount or degree of sin is not what matters.


For me, this doesnt prove a thing. (sincerely do not mean that in a negative way at all, cmc. :) Honestly) Simply because a book is historically accurate in its mention of times and places and people does not prove to me that it is divinely inspired.

That one particular thing wasn't meant to "prove" something. :) I brought up a few things. You know how in a court trial, sometimes it's about preponderance of the evidence? Well, that's one way to look at the Bible/Christianity. There is enough evidence, or reasons for me to believe. In fact, I don't think any other 'book' from another religion even comes close to the Bible.


There is a Hindu religious text titled Ramayana which is also claimed to be divinely inspired (as are the Vedas and Upanishads) and this book is an entire prophecy of the coming of Ram. :) Ram was said to have walked the earth and his entire life was lived out exactly as the Ramayana predicted.. 300-500 years earlier.

There have been many prophecies of messiahs, though not termed Messiah and they are said to have walked the planet. In fact the Hindus do not deny that Jesus was an avatar, they say it is a possibility because Vishnu takes many forms and comes to earth when we are headed for destruction. This, in my mind regarding Hinduism, does not make me believe in the validity of Hinudism either... I was just making mention. :)

Have the prophecies come true? (in the Hindu texts) Like I said, the Bible has close to 2000 fulfilled prophecies. And they are still coming true. If you look around at what is going on in the world today -- where we are heading (globalization, more and more of an anti-Christian sentiment, etc) --- all of it was prophecized in the Bible.


Is this the book titled, "Evidence that demands a verdict" ?

No, that's not it. :) I'll PM you and if you want the book, I'll send it to you.



:)

Thank you for the sentiments and reply. I appreciate it. I have many more things that have caused me to question when they come to me I will post them. :)

Again, Im not looking to return to christianity, just pointing about my questions. :)

Thank you.

- Seeker

Good, I like tough questions. It's also a chance for me to learn sometimes, and be better able to answer when other people ask questions. :) You're welcome, btw. :)

Love,
cindy

Oh, and sorry for the late reply. About why I haven't been around for a couple days.... I was out of town on Friday/Saturday, and today I've had an old friend visiting me, so I couldn't exactly spend much time on the internet. :p :)

lol That's okay. Enjoy your time with your friend. Spent time visiting an old friend this weekend as well. :)

- Marie

Originally posted by seekerofvisions
So basically, the idea is.. If you are in a situation, say Hitler and the Nazis and you are asked if you are hiding jews.. do you answer in the affirmative because you should not lie.. or do you lie to keep their lives free from peril? I answered (this was asked of me recently this is why I thought of it:) ) that I would not lie...If God's commandment is that we shall not lie, then you dont lie. Surely there are no levels of sin, sin is sin. So even in the case of releasing Jews into peril (I was told I was an instrument in their death in this case :| and not preserving life as I should) I should not lie. There can be no levels of sin, else that would make God a moral relativist, right?
Sorry for jumping in so late, I hope I can just point something out concerning this. This isn't a lie-don't lie situation. No situation is. You could, theoretically, say I refuse to answer. Sure, you might end up in prison, you might end up dead but that would be what God would call you to do. Deitrich Bonhoffer dealt with this actual situation, and I believe that's what he did (I could be wrong though). But the other fact is, God uses sin for his purposes. He is not the author of sin, but he can turn it into good. So, lying is still a sin, but one that would give greater glory to God.


For me, this doesnt prove a thing. (sincerely do not mean that in a negative way at all, cmc. :) Honestly) Simply because a book is historically accurate in its mention of times and places and people does not prove to me that it is divinely inspired.
Look at it this way: the Bible claims for itself divine inspiration. For those of us who believe it, this holds the ultimate authority, for the reasons that you pointed out. However, if you begin with the assumption that it is divinely inspired, and then look for reasons why it might not be, you would look to things like historical accuracy. The Bible is accurate in *all* other respects, as far as we can tell, so why would it be wrong concerning it's own claim to divine inspiration?


There is a Hindu religious text titled Ramayana which is also claimed to be divinely inspired (as are the Vedas and Upanishads :) ) and this book is an entire prophecy of the coming of Ram. :) Ram was said to have walked the earth and his entire life was lived out exactly as the Ramayana predicted.. 300-500 years earlier.

There have been many prophecies of messiahs, though not termed Messiah and they are said to have walked the planet. In fact the Hindus do not deny that Jesus was an avatar, they say it is a possibility because Vishnu takes many forms and comes to earth when we are headed for destruction. This, in my mind regarding Hinduism, does not make me believe in the validity of Hinudism either... I was just making mention. :)
But how many can show how the prophecies were fulfilled? And have evidence that the person who fulfilled the prophecies actually did exist? There's a heck of a lot of proof that Jesus actually lived. There is no such evidence for those figures such as Ram.

d00d, Gautama Buddha sure was around as a historical person and later mahayana buddhist thought mythified this person saying he was an enimation body of THE buddha.

Jesus was a mystic, a prophet to be sure, but just as Buddha's historical life was mythologized, as was Jesus' Look at both of their hagiographies, they match up pretty well.

There wasn't enough time between Jesus life and the gospels for there to have been mythologization. There was a mere 30 years between Jesus death and the writing of Mark, the first Gospel. Buddha's mythologization took place more than a lifetime after he died.

30-90 years. thats still a long time. So the mythologization occured three decades after death. So whats your point. It took less time to do the same thing....

No anthropologist in his right mind would ever say what you just said. Mythologization never, ever takes place within the lifetime of witnesses--and the gospel writers were witnesses to what happened. And the theory of mythologization doesn't take into account the change of the symbols. Usually, the mythologization of an account will take a story and bring them into accordance with other myths, bringing it into a system, as it were. The Biblical accounts do the exact opposite--Jesus died on a cross, a symbol of shame, and they turn this into a positive thing. A mythologizing of what happened would be something more in the lines of what Islam did to the story several hundred years later--Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, he was taken up into heaven before he could be so shamefully killed.

The cross is not a symbol of shame. FOur cardinal directions and the fifth being the transcendant point. Same symbol in mahayana buddhism with the five celestial buddhas. The cross is Jesus triumph over death, something we can all do, not just him. Triumph not shame. The cross is never religiously about shame.

Islam did not mythologize the story of the crucifixation. They recanted it. BIG difference there.

Folklore is ascribed to people who arent even dead yet. In history Fidel Castro is said to have fired a direct hit on a US ship during the bay of pigs invasion. Did it really happen? probably not. Is it a part of a folklore ascribed to his character. Yes. DO people have a will to believe it is true. Yes. And he isnt even dead yet

I think you have a bad interpretation of mythologization.

To the romans the cross was a symbol of shame. It was a wretched way for the most wretched of thier civilization to die in horrible agony.