When you're going through rough times - trials or "storms" in your life... do you think God is 'shaping' you, or refining you into a stronger person?

I remember listening to the pastor at my old church in LA talk about this. He was saying that the times when we feel we're being slammed against the wall.... we should know that God is putting us through the 'heat' to refine us into a better and stronger person. And this is done out of love, so we shouldn't get mad at God, but trust Him.

That leads to my next question... Is it hard for you sometimes to let go, and trust God? I was talking to someone via PM, and I asked that question. For me, that's one of the hardest things to do, as a Christian... To 'let go' of the control, and let God be in control. And to not worry about things.

I know that Romans 8:28 is true... and I know that God has already been so good to me, in my life. So why can't I completely let go of certain worries and just trust in Him 100%? Can anyone else relate?

I had a few other questions... but I'll stop here for now. This thread will be the place to post questions or thoughts for Christians, and please feel free to post here. Thanks! :)

Love,
cindy

Originally posted by buttercup
When you're going through rough times - trials or "storms" in your life... do you think God is 'shaping' you, or refining you into a stronger person?


This brings up a tough question: why am I going thorugh what I am going through?

Every person needs to ask themselves whether they are doing this to themselves due to bad decisions or is God leading them through it to teach them to turn to Him more.

I remember listening to the pastor at my old church in LA talk about this. He was saying that the times when we feel we're being slammed against the wall.... we should know that God is putting us through the 'heat' to refine us into a better and stronger person. And this is done out of love, so we shouldn't get mad at God, but trust Him.

Certainly, every trial we go through, we need to trust God in it and through it. God never promised us a rose Garden, at least not until we get to Heaven. In fact, He only promised us protection if we turned to Him first!

(Mat 6:25 KJV) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
(Mat 6:26 KJV) Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
(Mat 6:27 KJV) Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
(Mat 6:28 KJV) And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
(Mat 6:29 KJV) And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
(Mat 6:30 KJV) Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
(Mat 6:31 KJV) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(Mat 6:32 KJV) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
(Mat 6:33 KJV) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
(Mat 6:34 KJV) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

The most common idea in the Bible is that we are to turn to God, to obey what we know. God promised us that when we do this, He will be there for us. Note also, we are to seek Him FIRST, THEN these things will be addedunto us.

These things are NOT added unto us until we SEEK HIM FIRST.

That does not mean we cant stray from it, nor does it mean God will prevent us from straying from it, but God DOES promise us that when we fully trust Him, we will always have the grace to go through it.

Everyone of us knows that we do not always think things through. Me especially! What if we did, only from a Biblical perspective? What if we stopped and asked God about every decision of our life? What if we really did say thanks for every time we had something happen?

"Thanks for letting me eat Breakfast". "Thanks for letting me tie my shoes". "Thanks for letting me drive to work without an accident"

This really isnt that redundant. It is a complete trust in God in our life. If we turned to God for all decisions, we would be seeking His face and being filled with His wisdom for all things.

We can only do this if we practice a life of faith, of obedience. That is what is tough, we dont want to do it naturally, we learn to do it when we get in trouble. We turn to God most often when we see our lives have fallen apart and our plans have failed.

It is only natural that we are making decisions on our own, that we make the choice, but that does not mean we shouldn't ask for wisdom first. Also, many things are revealed through prayer and reading of God's word. Many principles of how we should respond to events in our life are revealed through studying God's Word. We don't need to learn everything through experience! :P

That leads to my next question... Is it hard for you sometimes to let go, and trust God? I was talking to someone via PM, and I asked that question. For me, that's one of the hardest things to do, as a Christian... To 'let go' of the control, and let God be in control. And to not worry about things.

I know that Romans 8:28 is true... and I know that God has already been so good to me, in my life. So why can't I completely let go of certain worries and just trust in Him 100%? Can anyone else relate?

You asked a real tough question here: You mentioned a verse that many people just throw out without really reading it in depth: ROMANS 8:28

(Rom 8:26 KJV) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(Rom 8:27 KJV) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Rom 8:28 KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

What we all as Christians need to ask ourselves: Are we the believer that is mentioned here? Are we the believers that LOVE GOD?

A simple saving faith is not what is mentioned here, what is mentioned here is an inference to : What is your level of committment to God? If you are committed to God, that you love Him, God will lead you and guide you. BUT, if you are just a casual believer, God is most likely NOT leading you, because you are not turning to Him!

Think of this next verse:

(1 John 1:5 KJV) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
(1 John 1:6 KJV) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
(1 John 1:7 KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
(1 John 1:8 KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1 John 1:9 KJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1 John 1:10 KJV) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Think of any earthly relationship you have had. Are you loving/honoring/trusting a person in that friendship in a way they can see you are being faithful? The same question is asked of God toward us.

Are we living in sin? Are we confessing sin to Him? Are we believing as we should? Are we trusting as we should? Are we being obedient? Is there something that we are supposed to be doing, like attending church regularly, or giving when the plate is passed but arent doing?

In all this, many Christians are happy to have 'FIRE INSURANCE', but are they excercising a relationship with God in a personal way?

Christians are called to live a HOLY LIFE, distinct from the world, just as Jesus did:

(1 John 2:1 KJV) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1 John 2:2 KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:3 KJV) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
(1 John 2:4 KJV) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(1 John 2:5 KJV) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
(1 John 2:6 KJV) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Is this what we are doing? If we want to be the person that God is going to honor:
(Rom 8:28 KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose....
Then we need to be the person that loves Him, right?

What does Jesus say about proving we love Him?
(John 14:22 KJV) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
(John 14:23 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(John 14:24 KJV) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

There are other verses that speak of Christians loving each other, looking out for each other, but isn't the love of God more important? We do not ignore our love for our Christian bretheren, but to put the love of God first, we must lead other believers to love God,also. God has promised to provide for us when we do follow and obey, to lead someone to Love God more, then we are leading them to be filled by God in ways we cannot do in our flesh.

My trials are mostly my causing. God wants me to learn to trust Him in all things. Whether God is causing me to hurt, it would be to make me turn to Him. If God is allowing me to go through something that I caused or Satan caused, He would be doing it to chastise me or allow me to learn from it to trust Him more.

God is not a God of torture or pain, He is a God of love. He is our Father. As a Father, He sometimes spanks us. Sometimes He allows us to make mistakes to teach us what is right and wrong. Either way, all things are happening to see if we turn to Him or not. Our job is to turn to Him in all things. Our job is to trust Him, to ask Him first if we are smart :rolleyes , or learn the hard-way if we think we are smart!


Through all things, we must also remember, we are not the point of the Creation, God is. All things are happening to show God is God. Our pains can be used to show men and angels what happens to people who turn to God in times of trials, or they can be used to show men and angels what happens to people who reject trusting God and end up crashed on the rocks and bitter about what happened.

We must remember, if God stepped in and solved all our problems right away, why should I ever learn to lve and trust Him? He would just be my genie, not my God! God is Holy, He is the creator, and I owe my very existence toHim, He does not owe me anything!

If I was in a relationship with a very rich and powerful woman, who showered me with gifts when I asked, and prevented others from hurting me, I might feel grateful, but chances are, I would not even notice the bad things because she would be keeping me from them. My relationship would be one of just taking, not giving.

No one wants to be the one protecting and not getting. No one. We all want something in return. God, knowing we are but dust, only wants us to trust Him, to believe on Him, to Love Him. What are you going to do physically to impress God? He is the creator of all things, what can you bring Him to impress Him with your love? Your earthly man or woman wants a hug/companionship/intimacy, God is no different, He wants our love.

Only obedience, only faith, can please a spiritual being, besides, this is what He told us. Obey. Trust. Listen. Rely. Depend.

All our trials are supposed to teach us these things. Whether we are being brought through it by God, because of God, or despite God, we are to turn to Him and trust. Admit where we are wrong, thak Him for sparing us, thank Him for delivering us, thank Him for a chance to learn more of Him while we are here through this exercise of faith.

And it is all so easy, only, do we really do it?

That's why Jesus had to die, none of us wants to do it, we have a fleshly nature, a sinful one, we want to do it on our own.

It is better to trust God. That's why we go through trials, to teach us to trust Him. To exercise the relationship that can only exist through faith while on Earth.

And when you do it, even if you fumble it a little, God knows you are trying when you are following what He said. He knows who is doing it according to His word, He knows who is at least working with what they read in the Bible, He knows who is at least working with what little they understand based on what He revealed.

He also knows who is NOT relying on what He said and trying to do it on their own! Not a good place to be!

Originally posted by buttercup
When you're going through rough times - trials or "storms" in your life... do you think God is 'shaping' you, or refining you into a stronger person?

Two part answer:
#1 I think that God uses trials (whether seeming out of the blue, or caused as a result of our disobedience) to shape and refine us, but also to bring us closer to him. He gives us situations that require us to do what we know is right from what he's said, and to trust him for the rest, and each time we trust him, it helps us grow in him.

#2 I also think that for every time we face a trial, we can make it worse by our attitude toward the trial. Complaining doesn't help us grow (and I don't mean blowing off steam to releave tension. I mean the petulant, whining, 'why me' kind of stuff that got God to yell at Job). and don't forget that sometimes the enemy takes advantage of those times too. If he can keep your focus off what God is trying to teach you, then his job is done.

Originally posted by buttercup
Is it hard for you sometimes to let go, and trust God? I was talking to someone via PM, and I asked that question. For me, that's one of the hardest things to do, as a Christian... To 'let go' of the control, and let God be in control. And to not worry about things.



I've learned that lesson the hard way myself. Still learning. In fact, it's the root cause of pretty much everything we ever do wrong. I have a family member that's causing others no end of grief because he refuses to learn this lesson. But he's young yet.

I dont think that god puts you through anything. God doesnt make you suffer to build your strength. **** just happens. What you do in response to trials is where the god potential comes in.

I'd like to quote some scripture
"**** happens"
I dunno what chapter, book, or verse thats in

Wow, thats a lot of scripture there, Banky. :)

Im a Pagan as you know, but when I was a Christian I always believed that God put nothing before me that I couldnt handle and never once did I question his willing to let me go through the trial. Maybe it was to make me stronger or maybe it was to test my faith, who knows. I didnt question a whole lot about things. :) I just prayed and found strength in that.

Must be odd hearing Christian comments coming from a pagan, eh? :)

- Marie

Originally posted by seekerofvisions
Wow, thats a lot of scripture there, Banky. :)

Im a Pagan as you know, but when I was a Christian I always believed that God put nothing before me that I couldnt handle and never once did I question his willing to let me go through the trial. Maybe it was to make me stronger or maybe it was to test my faith, who knows. I didnt question a whole lot about things. :) I just prayed and found strength in that.

Must be odd hearing Christian comments coming from a pagan, eh? :)

- Marie
Took the words right out of my mouth! :);)

I'm sure god tests you and makes you stronger and all that jazz, but couldn't some hard times be just hard times? Since there is evil in the world, even as a christian you can't avoid it completely. Job is an example, even though it was sort of a test...

In some ways big gabe is right, **** happens.... when adam and eve got themselves booted from eden, they opened themselves up to pain and suffering. God sure could (and still does) help them through it, but I'm sure it doesn't always come from him.

That was my position when I was on your guys' side. :)

How about the notion of KARMA in explaining the reasons why u go through ups and downs.

As for me, in this disgustingly rough time for me, I dont believe god messed my mind up so I could begin my journey for him. I lived a certain way for too long, it exploded, and now I have chosen to "link back" and in this have obtained a fraction of recovery

Originally posted by Banky

This brings up a tough question: why am I going thorugh what I am going through?

Every person needs to ask themselves whether they are doing this to themselves due to bad decisions or is God leading them through it to teach them to turn to Him more.

That's a very good question. And yeah, it is tough to answer that sometimes.


Certainly, every trial we go through, we need to trust God in it and through it. God never promised us a rose Garden, at least not until we get to Heaven. In fact, He only promised us protection if we turned to Him first!

The most common idea in the Bible is that we are to turn to God, to obey what we know. God promised us that when we do this, He will be there for us. Note also, we are to seek Him FIRST, THEN these things will be addedunto us.

These things are NOT added unto us until we SEEK HIM FIRST.

That does not mean we cant stray from it, nor does it mean God will prevent us from straying from it, but God DOES promise us that when we fully trust Him, we will always have the grace to go through it.


I know that. Thanks for reminding me. :)



Everyone of us knows that we do not always think things through. Me especially! What if we did, only from a Biblical perspective? What if we stopped and asked God about every decision of our life? What if we really did say thanks for every time we had something happen?

"Thanks for letting me eat Breakfast". "Thanks for letting me tie my shoes". "Thanks for letting me drive to work without an accident"

This really isnt that redundant. It is a complete trust in God in our life. If we turned to God for all decisions, we would be seeking His face and being filled with His wisdom for all things.

We can only do this if we practice a life of faith, of obedience. That is what is tough, we dont want to do it naturally, we learn to do it when we get in trouble. We turn to God most often when we see our lives have fallen apart and our plans have failed.

It is only natural that we are making decisions on our own, that we make the choice, but that does not mean we shouldn't ask for wisdom first. Also, many things are revealed through prayer and reading of God's word. Many principles of how we should respond to events in our life are revealed through studying God's Word. We don't need to learn everything through experience! :P


Well, I was about to say... the tough thing sometimes is knowing what God's will is for me. You said many things are revealed through prayer and reading God's word... I admit, I need to do more of reading and studying the Bible. Sometimes I know when God is 'speaking' to me, when it comes to a problem I have... A few weeks ago, I was having a certain problem, and feeling bad about it. That night, I heard a couple speakers at that Christian club that I think I mentioned to you, here at my college. What those speakers talked about was exactly what I was feeling bad about, and what they said answered what was on my mind, perfectly. So I knew it was from God, which was very cool. But there are other times, when it's hard for me to know what God is trying to tell me. I just wish I was better able to discern these things. I know that I need to turn to God more, and I know that the things you said are true. Thank you for your post, Jim... I appreciate you taking the time to write that and post the scriptures. :)

Originally posted by TheFrog


Two part answer:
#1 I think that God uses trials (whether seeming out of the blue, or caused as a result of our disobedience) to shape and refine us, but also to bring us closer to him. He gives us situations that require us to do what we know is right from what he's said, and to trust him for the rest, and each time we trust him, it helps us grow in him.

TheFrog is right. :cool:


#2 I also think that for every time we face a trial, we can make it worse by our attitude toward the trial. Complaining doesn't help us grow (and I don't mean blowing off steam to releave tension. I mean the petulant, whining, 'why me' kind of stuff that got God to yell at Job). and don't forget that sometimes the enemy takes advantage of those times too. If he can keep your focus off what God is trying to teach you, then his job is done.

You're right again. :) The 'why me' stuff isn't productive, and it does make things worse sometimes. I agree that we also have to watch the spiritual warfare... That's something that I haven't thought about for a while, but just because things seem ok in that area doesn't mean that I need to forget about that.


I've learned that lesson the hard way myself. Still learning. In fact, it's the root cause of pretty much everything we ever do wrong. I have a family member that's causing others no end of grief because he refuses to learn this lesson. But he's young yet.

Yeah... I think it is the cause of pretty much everything we do wrong. And I'm learning too. I hope your family member learns this as well. :) Thanks for your post, Froggie!

Love,
cindy

Originally posted by BIG GABE
I dont think that god puts you through anything. God doesnt make you suffer to build your strength. **** just happens. What you do in response to trials is where the god potential comes in.

I'd like to quote some scripture
"**** happens"
I dunno what chapter, book, or verse thats in


heheh... Well, I think it's true that a lot of what we go through is due to our own bad choices. But I do think that he wants us to learn from it all, and turn to Him. But anyway, I know you're not a believer.... at least not in the same way I am. :)

I still need to get back to that one thread where you were talking about Gnosticism and mysticism, btw. I haven't been posting here much at all lately. Got some other things on my mind, plus I've been busy with school and all that. :) But I do want to talk to you about that!

Love,
cindy

Originally posted by seekerofvisions
Wow, thats a lot of scripture there, Banky. :)

Im a Pagan as you know, but when I was a Christian I always believed that God put nothing before me that I couldnt handle and never once did I question his willing to let me go through the trial. Maybe it was to make me stronger or maybe it was to test my faith, who knows. I didnt question a whole lot about things. :) I just prayed and found strength in that.

Must be odd hearing Christian comments coming from a pagan, eh? :)

- Marie


heh... no, it's not odd. And thanks Marie. :) I'm going to answer those questions you posted on that other thread. Maybe not right now, though... I need to leave here in about 20 minutes ( I have a night class tonight) btw, I've been praying for you. and I'm going to keep you in my prayers!

Originally posted by igofast
I'm sure god tests you and makes you stronger and all that jazz, but couldn't some hard times be just hard times? Since there is evil in the world, even as a christian you can't avoid it completely. Job is an example, even though it was sort of a test...

In some ways big gabe is right, **** happens.... when adam and eve got themselves booted from eden, they opened themselves up to pain and suffering. God sure could (and still does) help them through it, but I'm sure it doesn't always come from him.

That was my position when I was on your guys' side. :)

Yeah, it's true that even Christians can't avoid it. But as seeker said, God would not give us more than we can handle. And this is something that I want to learn more about, but Banky mentioned that we have God's protection, if we just turn to Him, and trust Him. That reminds me of a scripture... (I'm paraphrasing) If God is for us, who can be against us?

;)

hypothetically speaking from your point of view cindy...god does "give" people more than they can handle....christians do commit suicide...they are not absolved from that phenomenon.


I just think if u put "god's will" as an explanation for things..u'll run into trouble. In fact the ruling classes have used "god's will" to justify oppressive conditions that they impose on others.

GOD DOES NOT MAKE U SUFFER
I am a FIRM believer in this

Originally posted by BIG GABE
hypothetically speaking from your point of view cindy...god does "give" people more than they can handle....christians do commit suicide...they are not absolved from that phenomenon.


I just think if u put "god's will" as an explanation for things..u'll run into trouble. In fact the ruling classes have used "god's will" to justify oppressive conditions that they impose on others.

GOD DOES NOT MAKE U SUFFER
I am a FIRM believer in this
Actually, that cant be true. If a person commits suicide, that isn't because God put them through something they could NOT handle IF THEY TURNED TO HIM.

Think of this:
(1 Cor 10:13 KJV) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If God provides a way to escape for the faithful believer, then those who fail to be led through, must not be trusting Him. The only other exception would be those who God is allowing to be martyrs, but that is different from what you asked, and that was suicide.

Suicide is YOU taking your own life, not being martyred. If God provided a way to escape, which He does if we trust Him, then those who quit trying are guilty of quitting trying, not God letting them fail, but them giving up.

I have had some serious trials in my life since I was a Christian, and if it was not for the belief that God is allowing me to learn something and trusting Him to see me through, I have no idea where I would be, back on skid row somewhere, drunk in some alley, or in some nut house. But you now what? God lead me through those times because i trusted Him as I knew how, and I stuck with Him, I cried out to HIm. It isn't easy to 'Let Go, and Let God', we want to take over our lives. We are supposed to surrender to Him instead! That's the key! :)

Originally posted by buttercup


TheFrog is right. :cool:



That's Sig worthy, I believe.

If God provides a way to escape for the faithful believer, then those who fail to be led through, must not be trusting Him. The only other exception would be those who God is allowing to be martyrs, but that is different from what you asked, and that was suicide.

Suicide is YOU taking your own life, not being martyred. If God provided a way to escape, which He does if we trust Him, then those who quit trying are guilty of quitting trying, not God letting them fail, but them giving up.

I think you're misunderstanding his point (or maybe I am). If (the key word here) you interpret certain events as a test from God, and fail as a result, then you can infer in a way, that God was responsilbe. To claim otherwise would be akin to me shooting you in the head and proceed to say it wasn't my fault so much so that it was the bullet's. If that example makes any sense.

Originally posted by buttercup
When you're going through rough times - trials or "storms" in your life... do you think God is 'shaping' you, or refining you into a stronger person?



looks like this thread was from a few weeks back, but i want to respond and also ask a question if i might :)

okay, I think that in trials and storms a lot of the time it has quite a bit to do with God and the plan he has for us. Thinking back, many of my storms have been the biggest factor in positive things happening (if that makes sense)

Ironically, one of the biggest "storms" was something that kept me feeling bitter about any existence of a higher power for a few years and put kind of a restriction on me giving my heart to God for a while. However, when I did come back to God, he showed me that he was there through what he did about this "storm" A prophetic pastor gave me a word on this one thing that had kept me away from God and that was a few days after i was saved, but it was when I really "knew"

However, about the "storm" , trial, whatever you want to call it- There is no way that I would say It was Gods plan for that to happen. I don't think God willed it to happen, but i do think it was God who came in after and kept me from crumbling from the storm...

am i making sense? because i'm interested if any of you would agree. Like if something Really sucky happens, like we're talking bad situation, Do you think its Gods plan?

random example: if you go into your office one morning and are shot by an angry coworker, do you say, Oh this was God's plan?
or If your loved one died in the WTC is it God's plan?

I tend to think that it's not God's plan. the best way i could explain it would be that because we have free will, some people make major mistakes that cost other people a lot, or we ourselves make those mistakes and God can get us through them, but I cant even make sense of the idea that its Gods plan for some things to happen

So much to read and so much to say. Lemme get back to this. There is a scripture for almost everyone's comments here. I'll come back when I have them.

sorry to crash the thread, bbut let me frame the question differently.

What event would it take for you to decide that the Lord on high existeth not?

Bonnie, that's a good question... Like you, I've only been a Christian for a little over two years and so I'm still learning. I want to talk about what you brought up... but I can't post right now -- I'm in the middle of working on 2 projects - that have to be done by today. I'm hoping sapience, Frog or one of the other Christians here can give their answer, and when I'm done (hopefully by tonight) I'll be back.

I'm probably not going to be around much this week, because I have finals coming up, including one on Thursday that I HAVE TO do well on, so I'm going to be getting together with a study group a few nights this week. That means no time to DA, unless it's super late. :)

Anyway, thanks and I might be back later tonight! Cynic - I'll try to answer your question later too...

Peace,
cindy

Originally posted by BonnieBon
am i making sense? because i'm interested if any of you would agree. Like if something Really sucky happens, like we're talking bad situation, Do you think its Gods plan?

random example: if you go into your office one morning and are shot by an angry coworker, do you say, Oh this was God's plan?
or If your loved one died in the WTC is it God's plan?

I tend to think that it's not God's plan. the best way i could explain it would be that because we have free will, some people make major mistakes that cost other people a lot, or we ourselves make those mistakes and God can get us through them, but I cant even make sense of the idea that its Gods plan for some things to happen

I had it explained to me this way the other day. God's plan and sovereignty is like an ocean liner, and we're all the people on the boat. We can do horrible things to each other, things that don't make sense and hurt, but the boat keeps moving towards its final destination. God actually uses our stupid, hurtful acts to move his plan along, but they were never necessary for the plan to keep moving. So, in one sense, it is a part of God's plan. But in another, God still didn't instigate it, he merely uses the terrible things we do for eventual good.

I think that's from A.W. Tozer's book "Knowledge of the Holy." I'd recommend that book to any Christian, it is incredibly amazing.

god doesnt have a plan for me, you or anyone. When you are born into this world, you grow, and perhaps you may be able to ascribe a great potentiality to your existence. But I strongly believe that there is no predetermined destiny that some deity is trying to have you reach. There is no meaning to life, it just is, the secret is to awaken your own potential

Bonnie, I think sapience said it well. And that's what you said too... That it's not God's will for evil or bad things to happen... but He does use those things for good, ultimately.

Even something as tragic as 9/11 can be turned into good. We saw how it brought this country together and made a lot of people think about God/spirituality... and that life can end at any moment for any of us. Sometimes death brings people to Christ... that's an example of bad being turned into good. :)

sapience - thanks for mentioning that book... i'll have to check it out!

I think, Big Gabe, you pretty much assume an athiestic or deistic perspective, and our assumption in this conversation is one of a Christian God. If you don't like that assumption, fine, but you've missed the point of what we've been saying. If there is a God, and he is involved with life here on this earth, then there is more out there than just "awakening your own potential."

There is a god, I believe in the words of Jesus and I dared to have a different interpretation. God sleeps inside you, If you dont wake him up, and there is no garuntee this happens in life, you'll just live out a lesser divine life. Others get obstructed by images, attachments to dogma and they never tap into that inner divinity and its as good as dead. Ever hear that Nietzche quote? yeah

Which Jesus are you talking about Gabe?
The Jesus spoken of in the bible?
Surely you can't be talking about the same Christ who claimed to be the son of God, and who had the power to forgive the sins you commit, with or without the leave of those you have commited them against.
It couldnt be the same Jesus who claimed to be the only way into heaven?
Because the guy was surely a madman, or a liar. Most definatley NOT a prophet or good teacher.
unless of course we has telling the Truth.
:)

Oh what a boring rebuttal I have heard time and time again. I am only presented with two options, madman/liar and son of god. Perhaps there is a third way, and to be sure there is, a middle way. How boring and uncreative this C.S. Lewis inspired rebuttal is. Perhaps he spoke, and he did, in such esoteric ways that those who claim he was the 'son of god' merely concretized his poetic musings that aimed at helping others attain gnosis.

calm down sparky, no need to get your undies in a bunch.
I wouldnt use Lewis's arguments so much if he wasnt right all the time.

;)

So let me see if I can get you to speak a bit more plainly about what you actualy believe..

So I take it you do NOT believe in the jesus of the bible?
That you believe in a jesus who was misquoted by Matt mark Luke and John (if you even believe that they wrote those books).

So you said you believe in the words of Jesus. What words are these then? Who recorded them, and why are they any more credible than those found in the bible?

gabe, I'm as skeptical as you are, but that's really not what this thread was about. Buttercup was looking for some real and sincere opinions and help from people that share her faith. Lets be respectful of her and the rest of them and let them have this thread to discuss faith and whatnot without us questioning them about it. There's plenty of other threads for that.

I believe Jesus of the Bible is open to interpretations. Before the Nicean creed, christology was abundant. The bible was around, but the ideal of christhood was not concretized into one single interpretation, there were many. I like this period in Christian history because I happen to reject the Nicean creed. It seems odd that the same empire that crucified the man would try to set the very conditions of belief in him.


You do not get to monopolize and concretize the interpretation of Jesus of the Bible. As religion is the highest artform, it means different things to different people. My meaning is not wrong, its MY meaning

I would certainly agree that constantine & the roman catholic church have done damage to chrisitanity.
However, I have not seen any real evidence to suggest that the gospel texts were somehow altered by them.
I would be interested in seeing such evidence if you have any. I am not beind condecending either.. I serisouly would be interested.

If Christ did exist, as I believe he did, I do not believe his words to really be "open to interpretation".
People may misunderstand (whether intentional or otherwise) his words, but I belive he was trying to get a very specific point across.
He claimed to have the power to forgive sin, and HE claimed that noone could enter the kingdom of God except through him.
It doesnt get much more plain than that.

While religion may be art, Truth is not. I am not interested in religion. I am interested in finding out what the truth is.
While I recognize that I will only ever get a small glimpse of the Truth, it is still my job in life to persue it.
So I suppose one must decide whether one is interested in working towards discovering the Truth, or whether one is interested in expressing themselves artisticly thru thier own "religion", because when one starts twisting scriptures to conform to thier own desires, lifestyle, or beliefs they are in essence creating thier own religion.

And i think there is a difference between willfuly twisting scriptures to suit ones own purpose and well meaning misunderstanding of the scriptures.

Yes but I could say that concretized interpretations were fostered to serve the religious authority while they persecuted spiritually advanced mystics who countered their interpretations! Woop Woop I just described Jesus vs. the Pharisees! :)

Who is to say, objectively, that one interpretation is true while the other is not?

Dare to question

Dare to question, sure. Dare to try and twist the message to suit yourself? I think not.

Again, who is to say that the concretized version you adhere to wasn't twisted by the religious authority X amount of years ago to suit themselves. You argument is based upon subjective beliefs that your interpretation is absolutely right and mine is absolutely wrong

But out of respect to ButtercupS beliefs I feel this is an inappropriate place to continue this discussion. She's probably mad at me for stirring the Shiiii stew

quite right

http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20460

Originally posted by sapience


I had it explained to me this way the other day. God's plan and sovereignty is like an ocean liner, and we're all the people on the boat. We can do horrible things to each other, things that don't make sense and hurt, but the boat keeps moving towards its final destination. God actually uses our stupid, hurtful acts to move his plan along, but they were never necessary for the plan to keep moving. So, in one sense, it is a part of God's plan. But in another, God still didn't instigate it, he merely uses the terrible things we do for eventual good.

I think that's from A.W. Tozer's book "Knowledge of the Holy." I'd recommend that book to any Christian, it is incredibly amazing.

thanks. i'm glad to find people who feel the way i do about that. I love the way you phrased that, it's exactly the way i feel about it.

the reason i asked was because i have heard some Christians on occasion talk about totally destructive things happening and claiming it was God's plan for them to happen, like in a direct way.

is anyone going to answer my previous question?

Originally posted by Cynic
sorry to crash the thread, bbut let me frame the question differently.

What event would it take for you to decide that the Lord on high existeth not?

If someone could prove that Christ didn't rise from the dead. A world wide flood that covers absolutely everything, even Mt. Everest (of course, we'd all be dead then, so...).

Those are the only two things I think.

Sorry Cynic. Well, if you were talking about Christianity - if the Bible, or the major teachings of Christianity are disproven (like sapience said) then that would do it. But people have been trying to disprove the Bible for 2000 years, and not only has it not happened, but the Bible is still the most read, studied, quoted and best-selling book of all time.... despite the people who attack it. ;)

If you were talking about God in general... I don't know, that's not really something that can disproven, is it? Except by dying... but then we're dead, so...

btw Cynic, read my sig.

love the new avatar BC.

:)

Originally posted by buttercup btw Cynic, read my sig. I have sigs disabled.

Thanks! The theme right now seems to be classic stars, so I thought I'd go back to Audrey for a while. :)

"Suppose there were no intelligence behind the universe. In that case nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. Thought is merely the by-product of some atoms within my skull. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?..." why not?

Originally posted by Cynic
"Suppose there were no intelligence behind the universe. In that case nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. Thought is merely the by-product of some atoms within my skull. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?..." why not?

Well, as he said, if thought is nothing but atoms bumping around within your skull, then how do you know your thinking is true?

Originally posted by igofast
gabe, I'm as skeptical as you are, but that's really not what this thread was about. Buttercup was looking for some real and sincere opinions and help from people that share her faith. Lets be respectful of her and the rest of them and let them have this thread to discuss faith and whatnot without us questioning them about it. There's plenty of other threads for that.

Thanks igo. Yeah, maybe I should start another thread...

Originally posted by buttercup Well, as he said, if thought is nothing but atoms bumping around within your skull, then how do you know your thinking is true? IF my thought is atoms bumping around my head then Lewis is quite correct in saying it is impossible to meaningfully believe anything.

But i believe consciousness to be infinite. I once saw an analogy of the human mind with a termite nest: it is not through the individual components that the mind can be understood, but only as a whole.

I am an unbeliever buttercup, and instead of being a slave to divinity... I am a slave to irony. So here we are: I'm turning Lewis's proposition on its head.

Man created God in his own image. He created a conscious being, with which to explain away the vagaries of the universe. The fact that man can conceive of this proves that man is conscious. If he were not, how could he create such a myth? and why?

I have a feeling I'm preaching to the choir about man being conscious (like I told you... slave to irony). But I consider the idea of god (among others) to prove consciousness, not the other way round

You believe consciousness is infinite? I'd like to hear why you believe that. I think it's clear that the human mind is finite.

As far as the rest of what you said, I have some questions to ask you.. but I think I'll start another thread. And I don't want to get into a big debate right now, but I'll post the thread, and maybe later if you're still around, we can talk about this. :)

where will you post it?

sorry, I was on another site for a while...

I'll post it here, in my journal! :)

Originally posted by buttercup
When you're going through rough times - trials or "storms" in your life... do you think God is 'shaping' you, or refining you into a stronger person?

Yes. I know there is scriptural reference to this as well.

That leads to my next question... Is it hard for you sometimes to let go, and trust God? I was talking to someone via PM, and I asked that question. For me, that's one of the hardest things to do, as a Christian... To 'let go' of the control, and let God be in control. And to not worry about things.

This is the hardest of all things. I over analyze matters at times to the point where I don't know exactly what to pray for. God knows the heart. It seems a simple thing to do - give it up to God. I think of the past, places and situations where He has delivered me.

Originally posted by jojo

Yes. I know there is scriptural reference to this as well.


This is the hardest of all things. I over analyze matters at times to the point where I don't know exactly what to pray for. God knows the heart. It seems a simple thing to do - give it up to God. I think of the past, places and situations where He has delivered me.

You're right. I'll give you an example... this may sound silly, but I just finished taking a public speaking class (it's a CSU requirement that i had put off for ages) and I have a total phobia of having to do speeches. So for my first speech, I prayed a few times that day, and believe it or not, I not only did well (considering i have that fear), but I got a perfect score. 100 points. It was truly a miracle. :)

I somehow got through the next speech too, cause it was a group presentation, and I set it up so I didn't have to do much talking. But for the next one, I ended up not doing it at all... I could've prayed again, but I didn't know if I'd get another miracle, so I ended up just skipping it, and my grade in that class went from an A to a B or C. :(

Anyway, like I said that may sound silly, but the point is that in certain situations, it's hard sometimes to let go and just trust God... even though I know Romans 8:28 is true.

Please tell me you attend CSU Sacramento. :)

I took speech in school. I loved it. almost went to Davis to study Rhetoric. They have an entire department there.

It works for me - praying right before speaking. Once you know that God is in charge the fear is gone. It doesn't mean the speech goes well everytime!

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Yeah, I am going to Sac State! :)

You loved speech? Ugh, I don't... but of course it's just because I have that fear... if I didn't, I'd probably like it too.

And yeah, my prayers were definitely answered when I did do that speech... me of all people getting a perfect score, when I wasn't even sure if I could get up there and get through it? it was a miracle.

And that's one of my favorite scriptures. :)

Wow. Suddenly I feel so old.

I used to live near the campus in the apartments on Bicentennial Circle on the corner of Folsom Boulevard and Power Inn. I worked as a waiter then at what used to be Cafe River City on Howe Avenue. My wife and I there back in 1986.

The campus has changed so much. When I went there the library was about half the size it is now. A few of the buildings near the Union were not there as well.

If you don't mind me asking what are you studying?

Heh, I didn't know you lived in Sactown. Right now I'm living about an hour away, but I'm going to be moving there, near the university in a couple weeks.

I'm majoring in Communications with an emphasis in Digital Media. (digital video) It's a fun major, I love it. :nice: I'm actually back in college, after being out for 5 years... I decided to go back and finish my education. Last time I was going to San Francisco state, as a film major. But now that everything is digital, I need to learn all the new stuff, and I changed my major. That, plus they don't offer a film degree at Sac State.

Were there chickens and roosters everywhere around the campus when you were there? :D It's so funny how they just walk around the campus, amongst the students. :)

Squirrels! On the lawn back near the Pub. Where did chickens come form? Hmmm.

Digital Media is the way to go. The internet, packet switching, voice/data/video - all of it is digital. I'll guess there are jobs that haven't even been invented yet. The infrastructure is just the beginning.

I grew up in Fairfield, North Bay. Except they didn't call it North Bay when I was a kid. About 45 minutes from the campus west toward SF.

There are a lot of good apartments near the campus. It's a great place to go to school. The weather is awesome.:)

haha, yeah I was going to mention the squirrels too! They outnumber the students about 2 to 1, I think. And yeah, I don't know where they came from, but now there's chickens everywhere. :D You'll be sitting in the middle of a class, taking a test and all of a sudden hear a loud "COCKA-DOODLE-DOO!!!" :p

Yep, it is a pretty good place to go to school, and hopefully I'll find a nice little apartment! :)

btw, thanks for sticking up for me earlier. man, was that ugly what happened. :(

talk to ya later, jojo!

Originally posted by BonnieBon
Ironically, one of the biggest "storms" was something that kept me feeling bitter about any existence of a higher power for a few years and put kind of a restriction on me giving my heart to God for a while.

Adversity can bring out the best in a person. But I also see how ones faith can come into question during those hard times. I don't believe that giving something over to God necessarily makes it easier dealing with it. Am I wrong? I mean you can't go through life completely hands off.