Peter Schiff down at OWS - NYC

[302Riz]

http://youtu.be/UGL-Ex1CD1c

[Cd.]

Is this guy retarded?

[jwreck]

Love it!

[jwreck]

Is this guy retarded?It looks like all of them except Peter Schiff are.

[Cd.]

Compassionate Conservatism? What a crock of shit!

[Zordar]

Compassionate Conservatism? What a crock of shit!Agreed. Compassion as a policy or platform is a very bad idea.

[Dick Tator]

Compassionate Conservatism? What a crock of shit!

Better than the modern authoritarianism disguised as liberalism that wants to enslave me to the state. That's no better than being enslaved to corporations... why can't you see that?

[Cd.]

Better than the modern authoritarianism disguised as liberalism that wants to enslave me to the state. That's no better than being enslaved to corporations... why can't you see that?
Liberalism is the very antithesis of authoritarianism so what you said does not make sense. I dislike state ism in general but I think that certain roles need to be assigned to the commons because without such mechanisms it would be impossible to provide for the needs of a society. This is why the word welfare is included in the text of the US Constitution. To say that it is "slavery" for society to provide for the basic means of the individual makes absolutely no sense to me.

Peter Schiff is actually a bit more articulate than most conservatives I met. But I do not think what he said to the protesters in this video is at all true. The facts regarding Capitalism is this, pure Capitalism without societal restraints is a system in which individuals will inevitably be enslaved by corporations. This is what Theodore Roosevelt (a Republican) understood. The guilded age of the late 19th century was an era when immigrants were bought and sold like commodities. Children toiled in mines. Women worked in garment factories for 13 hours a day. Working conditions were unsafe. Consumer protection laws did not exist. Hell, product liability laws did not come into existence until the 1960s which means that if you drove a car and the engine exploded and killed you, your survivors could not sue the manufacturer. Even common law solutions were unavailable at the time. Farmers were slaves of railroad companies who dictated prices.

If it were not for labor unions we would all be slaves. Groups like the Grange Society brought down the robber barons who extorted money from farmers. And it was those pesky liberals who made consumer products safe.

Conservatives are very nostalgic about the past. Too bad that so many of them were not alive to see how shitty the past really was.

[Dick Tator]

Conservatives are very nostalgic about the past. Too bad that so many of them were not alive to see how shitty the past really was.

You're right. Things were super shitty back before Obama paid my mortgage and put gas in my car! :rolleyes:

http://uppitywoman08.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/peggyjoseph.jpg

[Cd.]

You're right. Things were super shitty back before Obama paid my mortgage and put gas in my car! :rolleyes:

http://uppitywoman08.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/peggyjoseph.jpg
Adding a little race baiting to the argument, I see.

[Dick Tator]

Adding a little race baiting to the argument, I see.

I made absolutely no comment on her race, merely sarcasm on her ignorance. You're the one that mentioned race. :not:

Ignorance is race-neutral and if you're such a wimp that you can't recognize that she's an idiot, then there's no hope for you... :shrug:

[Cd.]

I made absolutely no comment on her race, merely sarcasm on her ignorance. You're the one that mentioned race. :not:

Ignorance is race-neutral and if you're such a wimp that you can't recognize that she's an idiot, then there's no hope for you... :shrug:
You show a picture of a black women with her children and go on to say she is an idiot? I don't get it. Am I missing something here?

[Dick Tator]

You show a picture of a black women with her children and go on to say she is an idiot? I don't get it. Am I missing something here?

She's famous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

[DamnYankee]

Better than the modern authoritarianism disguised as liberalism that wants to enslave me to the state. That's no better than being enslaved to corporations... why can't you see that?

How does one become "enslaved" to corporations anyway?

[302Riz]

You show a picture of a black women with her children and go on to say she is an idiot? I don't get it. Am I missing something here?

We cant help it if she said it. Its not like it was taken out of context and she is black.

"If I take care of him, he will take care of me". "I wont have to pay my mortgage or pay my gas".

Those poor kids are doomed to a life of dependency. Now can we discuss the video instead of race?

[hadit]

We cant help it if she said it. Its not like it was taken out of context and she is black.

"If I take care of him, he will take care of me". "I wont have to pay my mortgage or pay my gas".

Those poor kids are doomed to a life of dependency. Now can we discuss the video instead of race?

No, because the video can't be defended. Hence the pathetic distractions.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Agreed. Compassion as a policy or platform is a very bad idea.
It's better than the ruthlessness that got us here.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Is this guy retarded?
His whole family is retarded.

[86Dùde]

I still think you need to let cowpunk come out and play for awhile. Do we have to hypnotize you to get that dude to come out of your head?

[Cyclone Ranger]

I'm not Cowpunk.

[Freedom&Liberty]

It's better than the ruthlessness that got us here.Enslaving a people based on class is no better than using skin color. Freedom demands nothing and justice cannot be achieved by expanding the base.

[Dick Tator]

How does one become "enslaved" to corporations anyway?

It happens when government either forces you to buy their product, passes regulations that stifle competition, or subsidizes their business with YOUR money.

[Cd.]

It happens when government either forces you to buy their product, passes regulations that stifle competition, or subsidizes their business with YOUR money.

What about monopolies? You have large corporation, banks, communications providers and so one joining together. They are fixing prices and nothing is done. You call that competition?

[Freedom&Liberty]

Government is the only monopoly, CD.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Enslaving a people based on class is no better than using skin color. Freedom demands nothing and justice cannot be achieved by expanding the base.

And that's exactly what your bullshit free market ideology cultivates: wage slavery.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Otherwise known as freedom. Thanks for playing.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Wage slavery is the OPPOSITE of freedom.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Wage slavery is an oxymoron, moron.

[Cyclone Ranger]

No, it isn't.


Wage slavery is a complicated term that has been used in many different contexts. There have been many references to its concepts by philosophers and the like, but the term is first recorded as used in 1836 by female textile workers in Lowell, Massachusetts, called the Lowell Mill Girls. The women in Lowell factories lived in boarding houses, often owned by the factory owners, and worked (quite frequently at young ages) about 70-80 hours a week.

The textile factories tried to strive toward improving some aspects of these women’s lives by offering them access to concerts and lectures, and they also insisted on high moral standards and church attendance. They paid relatively good wages for the time, prompting many to “sell their freedom” to earn a wage, which was resented expressly in a protest song written in 1836 by striking workers.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Ummmm ... they were being paid.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Irrelevant. They had no freedom, and they were paid shit. They were wage slaves.

[Freedom&Liberty]

You seem confused.


They paid relatively good wages for the time,

[Cyclone Ranger]

Not relative to what they required.

[Freedom&Liberty]

No one forced them to work.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Biology forced them to work.

[Freedom&Liberty]

For any employer willing to hire at a freely negotiated wage..

[Cyclone Ranger]

They had no choice because everyone else who hired women at that time did similarly.

[Freedom&Liberty]

That was 175 years ago. Get over it.

[Cd.]

Wage slavery is an oxymoron, moron.
Bullshit!
Capitalism introduced a new kind of slavery! You work, you get paid, and you buy a house. The bank gives you a mortgage. Then you loose your job, you have to take a lower paying job because the RepubliKKKans fuck up the economy. You mortgage rises and you are a slave to the bank.

Get it now?

[jwreck]

Bullshit!
Capitalism introduced a new kind of slavery! You work, you get paid, and you buy a house. The bank gives you a mortgage. Then you loose your job, you have to take a lower paying job because the RepubliKKKans fuck up the economy. You mortgage rises and you are a slave to the bank.

Get it now?You are free to sell/leave your house and or job at any point.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Bullshit!
Capitalism introduced a new kind of slavery! You work, you get paid, and you buy a house. The bank gives you a mortgage. Then you loose your job, you have to take a lower paying job because the RepubliKKKans fuck up the economy. You mortgage rises and you are a slave to the bank.

Get it now?Socialism introduced a new kind of slavery! Everyone gets a home loan with no down payment and no job and suddenly we're all slaves to the all powerful liberal government.

[302Riz]

Bullshit!
Capitalism introduced a new kind of slavery! You work, you get paid, and you buy a house. The bank gives you a mortgage. Then you loose your job, you have to take a lower paying job because the RepubliKKKans fuck up the economy. You mortgage rises and you are a slave to the bank.

Get it now?

At what point does the person who opted to take out a mortgage to buy a house take responsibility for their actions? Is it the job of the government to bail out everyone when they make the wrong choices?

I took out a mortgage to buy a house a year ago. I have to be responsible and work hard and do a good job so I can maintain my job to pay my mortgage. If at any point, I start slacking off at work and get fired, thats on me and nobody else to keep a roof over my familys heads.

Life has never been fair, and no matter how many laws that have been and will be passed in the future wont make it any more fair. We cant go against the natural forces of nature. Either learn how to adapt, survive or achieve greatness or you will starve and die. 10,000 years ago, governments didnt exist and people somehow managed to survive and prosper.

If you cant hack it in todays world, when all of the essentials of life are provided by other people - there is a problem. Yes there are inequalities, but thats the fault of the government. Get government out of the way, and those inequalities will fade away into history.

[Cd.]

You are free to sell/leave your house and or job at any point.
True. And we have the right to be homeless and starve to death. I get your point.

Socialism introduced a new kind of slavery! Everyone gets a home loan with no down payment and no job and suddenly we're all slaves to the all powerful liberal government.
Powerful Liberal Government? Don't you mean slaves to corrupt mortgage gangsters like Bank of America?


At what point does the person who opted to take out a mortgage to buy a house take responsibility for their actions? Is it the job of the government to bail out everyone when they make the wrong choices?
No, but some of us would like to see mortgage companies live up to their actions. I would also like to see those who commit crimes be prosecuted which is not happening. Especially when you consider that many mortgage companies are actually foreclosing on people illegally.


I took out a mortgage to buy a house a year ago. I have to be responsible and work hard and do a good job so I can maintain my job to pay my mortgage. If at any point, I start slacking off at work and get fired, thats on me and nobody else to keep a roof over my familys heads.
OK with me. I am the same way. But maybe if you are in a different situation you would rethink your position


Life has never been fair, and no matter how many laws that have been and will be passed in the future wont make it any more fair. We cant go against the natural forces of nature. Either learn how to adapt, survive or achieve greatness or you will starve and die. 10,000 years ago, governments didnt exist and people somehow managed to survive and prosper.
Life is not fair but we can make things better off for those who have less.
Also, early hunter-gatherer societies were actually communistic in nature. This is true of stone age cultures today. If you study such groups as the Bushmen,cultures in Papua New Guinea, the Amazon or various South Pacific cultures you will know this. Primitive Anarcho-Communism is actually the most organic of governmental types. This may be why the first Christians were Communists.

I am not recommending a purely communistic form of government for the US or any other industrial society, but I think it is something noteworthy.

If you cant hack it in todays world, when all of the essentials of life are provided by other people - there is a problem. Yes there are inequalities, but thats the fault of the government. Get government out of the way, and those inequalities will fade away into history.Maybe in your ideal world this is the case. But I see it differently. No man is an island. The Bible says so and I say so. We can all live in our log cabins like Ted Kaczynski. But few of us really chose this way of life. Or we can acknowledge that society is comprised of individuals interconnected and we survive only by mutual interdependence.

There are aspects of government which I despise, yes. I want to see total freedom of individual choice in such matters as drug use, academic freedom, freedom to marry who you chose whether that partner is of the same sex or not, freedom of thought and the freedom to peacefully assemble.

But I do not want to live in a society where the top 1% owns half of the wealth while a significant portion of the rest cannot afford to eat. I do not want to live in a society where hard working people cannot afford a place to live. I do not want people to be slaves of the banks. I do not want to have a society where more people are imprisoned than anywhere on earth yet corporate gangsters are stealing from hard working people! This is NOT the America I want to live in. THIS is why the people are out there! Listen to what they say! They stand up for all of us!!!!

[Freedom&Liberty]

Damn it, CD. You're an ideological scrambled egg.

[caddis]

And that's exactly what your bullshit free market ideology cultivates: wage slavery.WTF kind of bullshit term is that? We are all slaves to the money we make, we are slaves to the lifestyle we enjoy. Some people (THE OWS crowd) simply don't like the slavery they have chosen for themselves.

Your use of the term "slavery" is no different then your comrade TruthTwister using the word nazi or racist all the time. It's a loaded phrase...I mean, no one can be FOR wage SLAVERY, right?

Nice logical falllacy Cowpunk

[caddis]

Bullshit!
Capitalism introduced a new kind of slavery! You work, you get paid, and you buy a house. The bank gives you a mortgage. Then you loose your job, you have to take a lower paying job because the RepubliKKKans fuck up the economy. You mortgage rises and you are a slave to the bank.

Get it now?So your ilk wish to replace "wage slavery" with "Government slavery?"

You wish to make us subserviant to an elite group of leaders who will tell us what our life is worth?

[hadit]

At what point does the person who opted to take out a mortgage to buy a house take responsibility for their actions? Is it the job of the government to bail out everyone when they make the wrong choices?

I took out a mortgage to buy a house a year ago. I have to be responsible and work hard and do a good job so I can maintain my job to pay my mortgage. If at any point, I start slacking off at work and get fired, thats on me and nobody else to keep a roof over my familys heads.

Life has never been fair, and no matter how many laws that have been and will be passed in the future wont make it any more fair. We cant go against the natural forces of nature. Either learn how to adapt, survive or achieve greatness or you will starve and die. 10,000 years ago, governments didnt exist and people somehow managed to survive and prosper.

If you cant hack it in todays world, when all of the essentials of life are provided by other people - there is a problem. Yes there are inequalities, but thats the fault of the government. Get government out of the way, and those inequalities will fade away into history.

We always have a choice. We may not like the consequences of those choices, but we always have a choice. If I want to buy a house, I have to pay the price for that house. If I don't have the money, I have to borrow it. If I borrow it, I have to pay it back. That's the way it works. If I want to go to College, I have to pay for it. Again, if I don't have the money, I have to borrow it and pay it back. If I don't want to be yoked to a mortgage or a student loan, I don't have to be. I CAN CHOOSE.

[Cyclone Ranger]

WTF kind of bullshit term is that?
A term widely used by economists of all stripes, that's what kind of term it is.


We are all slaves to the money we make, we are slaves to the lifestyle we enjoy.
No, we all aren't. The 1% of earners who control 40% of the wealth are hardly slaves to anyone.


Some people (THE OWS crowd) simply don't like the slavery they have chosen for themselves.
In the Bizarro Universe where everyone gets the choice not to be forced to work for minimum wage because of the vastly lopsided income distribution, discrimination, and limited upward mobility. Not, however, in this one.


Your use of the term "slavery" is no different then your comrade TruthTwister using the word nazi or racist all the time. It's a loaded phrase...I mean, no one can be FOR wage SLAVERY, right?
No, it's an appropriate phrase for wage slaves.


Nice logical falllacy Cowpunk
I'm not Cowpunk.

[Cyclone Ranger]

We always have a choice.
The evidence suggests that we don't all have a choice.

Unless you're born rich, it's highly unlikely you'll ever be rich. And if your parents were poor, it's in the highest probability that you will be too.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Socialism introduced a new kind of slavery! Everyone gets a home loan with no down payment and no job and suddenly we're all slaves to the all powerful liberal government.

Everyone didn't get a house without a down payment, or get to keep it after the banks made all the money. Nor did it make anyone slaves to the government. Nice right-wing propaganda,though.

[hadit]

The evidence suggests that we don't all have a choice.

Unless you're born rich, it's highly unlikely you'll ever be rich. And if your parents were poor, it's in the highest probability that you will be too.

That contradicts nothing in my post. Nothing. I still have the choice to take on debt or not. I may not like the consequences of doing one or the other, but I have a choice.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Everyone didn't get a house without a down payment, or get to keep it after the banks made all the money. Nor did it make anyone slaves to the government. Nice right-wing propaganda,though.Enough got cheap loans for even you to understand what I meant. Half the population are slaves to government and half are dependent upon government. And that's how liberals like it.

[302Riz]

The evidence suggests that we don't all have a choice.

Unless you're born rich, it's highly unlikely you'll ever be rich. And if your parents were poor, it's in the highest probability that you will be too.

Last year, I had the choice to either continue renting a 2 bedroom apartment in South Amityville or go for the plunge and take out a mortgage to buy a house in Nassau County. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced to put my signature on the dotted line to buy the house. Free will is an amazing thing and should be encouraged to be used alot more.

[Cd.]

So your ilk wish to replace "wage slavery" with "Government slavery?"

You wish to make us subserviant to an elite group of leaders who will tell us what our life is worth?
No, you are mistaking me with the Gangsters on Wall Street.

[Dick Tator]

No, you are mistaking me with the Gangsters on Wall Street.

Then you're solution is..... what?

[Cyclone Ranger]

That contradicts nothing in my post. Nothing. I still have the choice to take on debt or not. I may not like the consequences of doing one or the other, but I have a choice.
Debatable. If your only choices are taking on debt or being forced into bankruptcy, you don't really have a choice at all.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Enough got cheap loans for even you to understand what I meant. Half the population are slaves to government and half are dependent upon government. And that's how liberals like it.
In the Bizarro world where simply paying your share in taxes is "slavery." Or, for that matter, where 50% of Americans dependent on state benefits.

Your whole argument is bogus claims and made-up numbers

[Cyclone Ranger]

Last year, I had the choice to either continue renting a 2 bedroom apartment in South Amityville or go for the plunge and take out a mortgage to buy a house in Nassau County. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced to put my signature on the dotted line to buy the house. Free will is an amazing thing and should be encouraged to be used alot more.
Good for you. That has nothing to do with anything.

[Freedom&Liberty]

In the Bizarro world where simply paying your share in taxes is "slavery." Or, for that matter, where 50% of Americans dependent on state benefits.

Your whole argument is bogus claims and made-up numbersWe know that 47% pay no income tax. We also know that at least 1.7 trillion dollars are distributed by government every year.. When you can explain away those easily provable factual numbers, let me know.

[hadit]

Debatable. If your only choices are taking on debt or being forced into bankruptcy, you don't really have a choice at all.

Yes you do. Like I said, you may not like the consequences of a choice, but you always have a choice.

[302Riz]

Good for you. That has nothing to do with anything.

Did you or did you not mention in this thread that no-one has a choice? Everyone does. Its not my problem that you have your head shoved so far up your ass that you dont realize it.

[Cyclone Ranger]

The fact you may have doesn't mean everyone does

[Dick Tator]

The fact you may have doesn't mean everyone does

Name someone that doesn't for reasons other than disability.

[Cyclone Ranger]

How about everyone who simply needed to borrow against the equity to stave off bankruptcy? Is that really just a choice?

[hadit]

How about everyone who simply needed to borrow against the equity to stave off bankruptcy? Is that really just a choice?

Bankruptcy is a choice. We may like the consequences of one choice over another's, but we always have a choice.

[Dick Tator]

How about everyone who simply needed to borrow against the equity to stave off bankruptcy? Is that really just a choice?

Yes. They could have instead SOLD the asset they borrowed against. Instead they just moved their bills from one location to another. Not only did they make a choice but they made a STUPID choice.

[jwreck]

Or they can file bankruptcy and start over. There is a system in place to do that you know.

[302Riz]

The fact you may have doesn't mean everyone does

I am having a difficult time understanding why you think that not everyone has a choice to go into debt. Where are you getting this idea from?

I wasnt born into wealth and nothing was given to me. All the debt that I took on - especially when I went tech school, I paid off as soon as I could. I never expected anyone but myself to pay it off. Even when I was working in a warehouse getting paid next to nothing, I always made sure that my debts were paid first and any money that I had left over I saved.

[Cyclone Ranger]

Bankruptcy is a choice. We may like the consequences of one choice over another's, but we always have a choice.
If you have a business that won't make its payroll and can't meet creditor demands, bankruptcy is about as much of a choice as falling down instead of up. You're literally forced into it.

[Cyclone Ranger]

I am having a difficult time understanding why you think that not everyone has a choice to go into debt. Where are you getting this idea from?
Life experience in the real world.

You want to go to college? Debt.

You want to open a business? Debt.

You want to avoid starving during an economic downturn? Debt.

Etc.

[jwreck]

Life experience in the real world.

You want to go to college? Debt.

You want to open a business? Debt.

You want to avoid starving during an economic downturn? Debt.

Etc.:bs:

[302Riz]

Life experience in the real world.

Goes both ways


You want to go to college? Debt.
What about all the people who worked 2 to 3 jobs throughout college to avoid going into debt?


You want to open a business? Debt. Not necessarily. You can save up money to open your own business. Thousands of thousands of people have done this without going into debt.


You want to avoid starving during an economic downturn? Debt.
We have been a downturn for the last 4 years and spending money to get ourselves out of this crisis has only made it worse and harder for the country to get out of this mess.


You didnt put too much effort in this post. All of it is easily proved wrong.

[hadit]

If you have a business that won't make its payroll and can't meet creditor demands, bankruptcy is about as much of a choice as falling down instead of up. You're literally forced into it.

You weren't talking about a business. You were talking about individuals and mortgages. Regardless, if you start a business, you make a choice that may involve failure. You always have a choice.

[hadit]

Life experience in the real world.

You want to go to college? Debt.

Exactly. Choice and consequence. Or perhaps you work very hard for a scholarship. Again, choice.


You want to open a business? Debt.

Choice and consequence.


You want to avoid starving during an economic downturn? Debt.

Etc.

Incorrect. The choice was made earlier, when no plan was made to deal with the possibility of a downturn.

[igofast]

"I am the 1%"

No, you're not. Fail.

[Cyclone Ranger]

You weren't talking about a business. You were talking about individuals and mortgages. Regardless, if you start a business, you make a choice that may involve failure. You always have a choice.
Starting a business is indeed a choice; taking on debt when your business is failing is not really a choice at all

[Cyclone Ranger]

Exactly. Choice and consequence. Or perhaps you work very hard for a scholarship. Again, choice.
Not really a choice for most. Only having a high school diploma = a lifetime without economic opportunity for the majority. Of course, most can't get a scholarship no matter how they work.


Incorrect. The choice was made earlier, when no plan was made to deal with the possibility of a downturn.
Taking on debt is the only plan available for most.

[Cyclone Ranger]

What about all the people who worked 2 to 3 jobs throughout college to avoid going into debt?
I've never met anyone who did the above unless they simply couldn't get enough loans.


Not necessarily. You can save up money to open your own business. Thousands of thousands of people have done this without going into debt.
Bullshit. Except for the very wealthy able to self-finance, almost all businesses raise capital through finance or a bank loan, in pars or toto,


We have been a downturn for the last 4 years and spending money to get ourselves out of this crisis has only made it worse and harder for the country to get out of this mess.
If you completely ignore reality, that is. ie, that the economy has been slowly but steadily improving since the money was spent.

[AtariTeenageSuicide]

debt can be good; it is a sign of an "aspirational" society.

[Freedom&Liberty]

Not when private debt become a public entitlement.

[AtariTeenageSuicide]

Not when private debt become a public entitlement.

one of the biggest fixes is for the government to leave the business of higher education loans. then we wouldn't have a distorted market, where one can take out 40,000 in loans to earn a master's degree in puppetry (really!)

[Cyclone Ranger]

Not when private debt become a public entitlement.
If you irrationally hate entitlements, that is.

[Freedom&Liberty]

It's an easily justifiably rational aversion to liberal lunacy.