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TopsyTurvy
09-14-2010, 09:24 AM
Sometime in 1999, a construction electrician received a new work assignment from his union. The man, Sinclair Hejazi Abdus-Salaam, was told to report to 2 World Trade Center, the southern of the twin towers.

In the union locker room on the 51st floor, Mr. Abdus-Salaam went through a construction worker’s version of due diligence. In the case of an emergency in the building, he asked his foreman and crew, where was he supposed to reassemble? The answer was the corner of Broadway and Vesey.

Over the next few days, noticing some fellow Muslims on the job, Mr. Abdus-Salaam voiced an equally essential question: “So where do you pray at?” And so he learned about the Muslim prayer room on the 17th floor of the south tower.

He went there regularly in the months to come, first doing the ablution known as wudu in a washroom fitted for cleansing hands, face and feet, and then facing toward Mecca to intone the salat prayer.

On any given day, Mr. Abdus-Salaam’s companions in the prayer room might include financial analysts, carpenters, receptionists, secretaries and ironworkers. There were American natives, immigrants who had earned citizenship, visitors conducting international business — the whole Muslim spectrum of nationality and race.

Leaping down the stairs on Sept. 11, 2001, when he had been installing ceiling speakers for a reinsurance company on the 49th floor, Mr. Abdus-Salaam had a brief, panicked thought. He didn’t see any of the Muslims he recognized from the prayer room. Where were they? Had they managed to evacuate?

He staggered out to the gathering place at Broadway and Vesey. From that corner, he watched the south tower collapse, to be followed soon by the north one. Somewhere in the smoking, burning mountain of rubble lay whatever remained of the prayer room, and also of some of the Muslims who had used it.

Given the vitriolic opposition now to the proposal to build a Muslim community center two blocks from ground zero, one might say something else has been destroyed: the realization that Muslim people and the Muslim religion were part of the life of the World Trade Center.

Opponents of the Park51 project say the presence of a Muslim center dishonors the victims of the Islamic extremists who flew two jets into the towers. Yet not only were Muslims peacefully worshiping in the twin towers long before the attacks, but even after the 1993 bombing of one tower by a Muslim radical, Ramzi Yousef, their religious observance generated no opposition

“We weren’t aliens,” Mr. Abdus-Salaam, 60, said in a telephone interview from Florida, where he moved in retirement. “We had a foothold there. You’d walk into the elevator in the morning and say, ‘Salaam aleikum,’ to one construction worker and five more guys in suits would answer, ‘Aleikum salaam.’ ”

One of those men in suits could have been Zafar Sareshwala, a financial executive for the Parsoli Corporation, who went to the prayer room while on business trips from his London office. He was introduced to it, he recently recalled, by a Manhattan investment banker who happened to be Jewish.

“It was so freeing and so calm,” Mr. Sareshwala, 47, said in a phone conversation from Mumbai, where he is now based. “It had the feel of a real mosque. And the best part is that you are in the epicenter of capitalism — New York City, the World Trade Center — and you had this island of spiritualism. I don’t think you could have that combination anywhere in the world.”

How, when and by whom the prayer room was begun remains unclear. Interviews this week with historians and building executives of the trade center came up empty. Many of the Port Authority’s leasing records were destroyed in the towers’ collapse. The imams of several Manhattan mosques whose members sometimes went to the prayer room knew nothing of its origins.

Yet the room’s existence is etched in the memories of participants like Mr. Abdus-Salaam and Mr. Sareshwala. Prof. John L. Esposito of Georgetown University, an expert in Islamic studies, briefly mentions the prayer room in his recent book “The Future of Islam.”

Moreover, the prayer room was not the only example of Muslim religious practice in or near the trade center. About three dozen Muslim staff members of Windows on the World, the restaurant atop the north tower, used a stairwell between the 106th and 107th floors for their daily prayers.

Without enough time to walk to the closest mosque — Masjid Manhattan on Warren Street, about four blocks away — the waiters, chefs, banquet managers and others would lay a tablecloth atop the concrete landing in the stairwell and flatten cardboard boxes from food deliveries to serve as prayer mats.

During Ramadan, the Muslim employees brought their favorite foods from home, and at the end of the daylight fast shared their iftar meal in the restaurant’s employee cafeteria.

“Iftar was my best memory,” said Sekou Siby, 45, a chef originally from the Ivory Coast. “It was really special.”

Such memories have been overtaken, though, by others. Mr. Siby’s cousin and roommate, a chef named Abdoul-Karim Traoré, died at Windows on the World on Sept. 11, as did at least one other Muslim staff member, a banquet server named Shabir Ahmed from Bangladesh.

Fekkak Mamdouh, an immigrant from Morocco who was head waiter, attended a worship service just weeks after the attacks that honored the estimated 60 Muslims who died. Far from being viewed as objectionable, the service was conducted with formal support from city, state and federal authorities, who arranged for buses to transport imams and mourners to Warren Street.

There, within sight of the ruins, they chanted salat al-Ghaib, the funeral prayer when there is not an intact corpse.

“It is a shame, shame, shame,” Mr. Mamdouh, 49, said of the Park51 dispute. “Sometimes I wake up and think, this is not what I came to America for. I came here to build this country together. People are using this issue for their own agenda. It’s designed to keep the hate going.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

I can't disagree with Mr Mamdouh.

Zordar
09-14-2010, 09:58 AM
OK, fine. But who cares?

TopsyTurvy
09-14-2010, 10:02 AM
Anyone who cares about the US Constitution I guess? :shrug:

Zordar
09-14-2010, 10:08 AM
What's the Constitution got to do with anything? Please explain what you're going on about. Thanks!

TopsyTurvy
09-14-2010, 10:11 AM
According to the US Constitution, Muslims should have EXACTLY the same rights as Christians, Jews, et al. And according to US law, they have.

Yet protesting a mosque 'at Ground Zero' goes against those laws, even though there was prayer areas in Ground Zero before.

So they don't have the same rights.

Zordar
09-14-2010, 10:17 AM
Yet protesting a mosque 'at Ground Zero' goes against those laws, even though there was prayer areas in Ground Zero before.

So they don't have the same rights.Last I checked, building the "Ground Zero Mosque" is perfectly legal, as is protesting its construction. What, exactly, are you getting so worked up about?

:confused:

TopsyTurvy
09-14-2010, 10:19 AM
I'm not getting worked up, just providing information. :shrug:

cellularsociety
09-14-2010, 10:20 AM
I can't speak for topsy but what winds me up is the bullshit negativity of people who respond without actually giving the slightest thought - without any consideration of the actual facts.

(I am not suggesting you are one of those people btw.)


Mark

Zordar
09-14-2010, 10:24 AM
I'm not getting worked up, just providing information.The information you provided on the law was incorrect.


I can't speak for topsy but what winds me up is the bullshit negativity of people who respond without actually giving the slightest thought - without any consideration of the actual facts.Can you give an example? In all honesty, I've been bored of this particular story for awhile. I'm probably out of date on the most recent lack of fact checking/blind idiocy...

cellularsociety
09-14-2010, 10:32 AM
An example. If you followed any of this story whatsoever you ought to know exactly what I'm talking about. There has been no shortage of stupidity surrounding this story.

Just pisses on my chips, that's all.

Mark

mudskipper
09-14-2010, 10:40 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

I can't disagree with Mr Mamdouh.


thanks for that, topper...

I've actually long wondered about that...

whether there might have been some sort of Muslim prayer facility located within the WTC...

Zordar
09-14-2010, 10:42 AM
Well, yeah. But there are a LOT of examples, and they come from a lot of different sources.

A few weeks ago, I saw a lady asking Obama to prevent the Big Scary Muslim thing from being built. First of all, it's not like he'd see or hear her message, second of all he can't stop a building from being erected, if everything is on the up and up. Idiocy.

Then, in this thread, there's Topsy making shit up about the law or claiming people's rights are being taken away, which is something I've seen a lot of, too. More idiocy.

I've also seen folks claim we're going to be living under Sharia law within a generation if something isn't done to stop it from being built. Also idiotic.

So, yeah -- the examples are boundless. I was just wondering if there was anything in particular (rather than "All of the above") you could point to that really sets you off.

:eek:

TopsyTurvy
09-14-2010, 10:44 AM
Well, yeah. But there are a LOT of examples, and they come from a lot of different sources.

A few weeks ago, I saw a lady asking Obama to prevent the Big Scary Muslim thing from being built. First of all, it's not like he'd see or hear her message, second of all he can't stop a building from being erected, if everything is on the up and up. Idiocy.

Then, in this thread, there's Topsy making shit up about the law or claiming people's rights are being taken away, which is something I've seen a lot of, too. More idiocy.

I've also seen folks claim we're going to be living under Sharia law within a generation if something isn't done to stop it from being built. Also idiotic.

So, yeah -- the examples are boundless. I was just wondering if there was anything in particular (rather than "All of the above") you could point to that really sets you off.

:eek:

What have I made up?

cellularsociety
09-14-2010, 10:51 AM
Well, yeah. But there are a LOT of examples, and they come from a lot of different sources.

A few weeks ago, I saw a lady asking Obama to prevent the Big Scary Muslim thing from being built. First of all, it's not like he'd see or hear her message, second of all he can't stop a building from being erected, if everything is on the up and up. Idiocy.

Then, in this thread, there's Topsy making shit up about the law or claiming people's rights are being taken away, which is something I've seen a lot of, too. More idiocy.

I've also seen folks claim we're going to be living under Sharia law within a generation if something isn't done to stop it from being built. Also idiotic.

So, yeah -- the examples are boundless. I was just wondering if there was anything in particular (rather than "All of the above") you could point to that really sets you off.

:eek:


Indeed. For the law to be broken their would have to be active discrimination against the muslims - in this instance they would be stopped from building what is a perfectly legal building by bullshit public pressure.

I should point out that if they agree to move the mosque then that's a different matter. Only if they are forced is there discrimination taking place.



Mark

Zordar
09-14-2010, 10:58 AM
What have I made up?This:


According to the US Constitution, Muslims should have EXACTLY the same rights as Christians, Jews, et al. And according to US law, they have.

Yet protesting a mosque 'at Ground Zero' goes against those laws, even though there was prayer areas in Ground Zero before.

So they don't have the same rights.This was nonsense. There is nothing against the law with protesting, provided you don't cause a riot, light fires, or (if you have a large enough group) forget your permit. That's part of why that "God hates fags" guy is able to get away with so much of his crap. It's all legal -- and protected, even! If being a noisy, belligerent asshole isn't American, I don't know what is.


I should point out that if they agree to move the mosque then that's a different matter. Only if they are forced is there discrimination taking place.Yeah, that would be fine. At this point, though, I hope they don't decide to move it. Not that I want to jam a stick on anybody's eye or anything, but I kind of do.

TopsyTurvy
09-14-2010, 11:03 AM
This:

This was nonsense. There is nothing against the law with protesting, provided you don't cause a riot, light fires, or (if you have a large enough group) forget your permit. That's part of why that "God hates fags" guy is able to get away with so much of his crap. It's all legal -- and protected, even! If being a noisy, belligerent asshole isn't American, I don't know what is.

Yeah, that would be fine. At this point, though, I hope they don't decide to move it. Not that I want to jam a stick on anybody's eye or anything, but I kind of do.

OK I apologise, I wasn't clear and wrote what I didn't mean. I meant protesting with the specific intention of stopping it being built is unlawful. The protesting I don't mind, the expectation that it shouldn't be built I do.

Zordar
09-14-2010, 11:08 AM
Now that I understand what you meant, I completely agree, and I apologize for jumping down your throat. All is right in the world now.

TopsyTurvy
09-14-2010, 11:17 AM
Now that I understand what you meant, I completely agree, and I apologize for jumping down your throat. All is right in the world now.

I accept your apology, I hope you accept mine. ;)

Zordar
09-14-2010, 11:37 AM
Purr

Xavier Tremely
09-14-2010, 11:40 AM
Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic. There had better not be any Catholic churches anywhere near the site of the Oklahoma Federal Building!:|

cellularsociety
09-14-2010, 11:59 AM
OK I apologise, I wasn't clear and wrote what I didn't mean. I meant protesting with the specific intention of stopping it being built is unlawful. The protesting I don't mind, the expectation that it shouldn't be built I do.


Now that I understand what you meant, I completely agree, and I apologize for jumping down your throat. All is right in the world now.


I accept your apology, I hope you accept mine. ;)


Purr

I think we might need a group hug here. :ughug:


Mark

Rachuk
09-14-2010, 03:37 PM
Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic. There had better not be any Catholic churches anywhere near the site of the Oklahoma Federal Building!:|
Er. . .

On Sunday mornings, the recruits were required to either attend church services or spend an hour cleaning the barracks. McVeigh, an agnostic, chose to clean the barracks until he found out that nobody took attendance at church.

[. . .]

McVeigh drove to the wilds of southern Montana to look into a church near Yellowstone National Park that was gaining attention as a quasi-survivalist group. He was impressed with its efforts to stockpile food and munitions, and the people certainly seemed pleasant, but their New Age religious ways failed to trip his trigger.
In Kingman, McVeigh paid a visit to the local Seventh-Day Adventist Church, but he found that the service bored him as much as the Catholic Masses of his childhood. McVeigh had never been inclined to criticize people for their religious views, but he concluded that organized religion wasn't really for him. He believed that the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside of them.
"Science," he would tell his friends, "is my religion."


-Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck, American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh & the Oklahoma City Bombing, pages 57 and 142-143

Zordar
09-14-2010, 03:43 PM
Whoa!

Major BURNFEST, Rachuk. Kudos!

Victory
09-14-2010, 04:12 PM
“It is a shame, shame, shame,” Mr. Mamdouh, 49, said of the Park51 dispute. “Sometimes I wake up and think, this is not what I came to America for. I came here to build this country together. People are using this issue for their own agenda. It’s designed to keep the hate going.”

America is not the America you once knew is it, ol man? It's amazing what an attack on US soil does to society. Deal with it, Or go the fuck back home!

flaming_liberal
09-14-2010, 04:39 PM
Yep, let's celebrate the fact that the terrorists have managed to achieve their goals.

Look at these fuckers living in terror. Thank God terrorism has nothing to do with that.