Well, I wanna build a new comp, and I wanna strike a balance between stability, versatility, cost, and power.

So lets first talk about processors...

What do YOU recommend and why? To prioritize, power is more important than cost, so 20-50 bucks doesn't mean much if I will be happier with it.

So here are the basic options I see around...

An Athlon(DDR)
A Dual Athlon(DDR)
A P4 System (DDR or RDRAM)
A Dual P3 Tutalin System (the .13 micron P3, 1.1-1.23 GHz, fast as hell) running SDRAM or DDR if I can find a good mobo that has DDR support.
P3 system

What do you guys recommend? I am not a BIG AMD fan, but I have been seriously debating them due to their massive power/low cost. The only issue I see if with overclocking, and heat. I have been reading articles about how Athlons when they run 'too hot' they burn out fast. P3s shut down, and P4s jsut throttle down...

Any thoughts?

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Manu Narayan

The CPU isn’t the only thing in a PC.

I recommend a RAID hard drive setup using two IBM DESKSTAR hard drives. I have a RAID in the PC I’m using now and I think it’s the biggest performance advantage in the whole box. Don’t listen to the gamers, you must have a fast hard drive system.

A GeForce3 or better video card, their as good as Matrox on 2D and way better on 3D.

A SoundBlaster Live sound card, why pay more? Put the money you save into the speakers. Get Cambridge Sound Works or better.

If you need a NIC card get the smart one that doesn’t load the CPU that Sharkeyextreme always recommends. I can get the article if you need it.

The CPU, it depends on what you want to use the system for. If you use PhotoShop you definitely want Intel because of Adobe optimizations. If you don’t use PhotoShop and your thinking P3 the AMD has way more bang for the buck. Dual P3, I think it’s ok if you have Windows 2000 or later. Otherwise the OS won’t manage both CPUs anyway. I haven’t seen any dual systems personally and prefer P4 because of it. There might be unusual power supply requirements for dual P3, twice the wattage actually for the CPUs and much more heat in the box.

In addition, regarding heat. Windows 2000 or later will throttle CPU clock with respect to heat and CPU load. If you have Windows95/98 you need to install a utility called RAIN. This is a big plus with over clocked CPU’s because it reduces the clock speed when the CPU is waiting, which it usually is anyway. You can down load it free from 2cows.com. Just do a search on RAIN CPU utility.


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We aren't discussing anything.

I was looking at the DeskStar 40 and 60 gig drives, 7200 RPM. Belive me, I am a believer in fast HDs. They are one of the biggest bottlenecks in the systems nowadays.

What can you tell me abotu raid? What 'version' do you run? How hard/easy is it to setup? Pros and cons?

I do a fair amount of Photoshop work (for websites) and I am getting into video editing on an amateur level (digital through firewire.)

OS I use is Win2K and RedHat 6.2

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Manu Narayan

I would choose an AMD setup. While all the review sites look at gaming, they often fail to show benchmarks with raw processing power, which the AMD usually excels in. I just build my gal an Athlon 1.2, micron 256mb DDR, name-brand DVD, Geforce 2 GTS, Linksys NIC, Internal Zip, 1.44, 40g, and a sweet Epox mobo for 550 with shipping. I doubt you could build a p4 system equivalent to that for any less than 800, and that'd be doing it all yourself. I have a nice fan, and with the quality memory running from a default 9x133 to a 9.5x140, making the athlon run from 1.2 to 1.33.

AMD, Manu...

And you paid 800 for that setup? Or less? I am having MAJOR AMD leanings...it is just hard to make old habbits die!

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Manu Narayan

Jeez, Slayr, make me one of those!!!



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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
--John Stuart Mill--

Don't forget the P4 biggest strength is moving large files. All depends on what you want the PC to do.

The RAID setup was easy to install. Just plug the card into a PCI slot, connect the ribbons to the drives and card then set the BIOS to SCSI. The card talks SCSI to the PC but uses IDE for the hard drives. Then load the drivers and utilities from CD after boot up.


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We aren't discussing anything.

Originally posted by Manu:
And you paid 800 for that setup? Or less? I am having MAJOR AMD leanings...it is just hard to make old habbits die!

Read my post more carefully, you jerk. I said 550.

Here is what I am looking at now...

soyo dragon k7v mobo w/ onboard 5.1 sound, NIC, 6 usb and Raid

1.4 Tbird 266fsb

256mb 2100 DDR

geforce 2 mx 64mb

nice case I found local with front ports for sound, usb, etc.. http://electroseller.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=electroseller&Product_Code=4388%2BC-AMD&Category_Code=008

30gb Western HD ata100 7200 rpm

12x LiteOn burn proof CDR (cheapy)

all that with shipping is $609 with current (9-29) pricewatch pricing


I then priced other things like monitor, keyboard/mouse (cordless) router, and desk all in all, looks like $1320

not bad.. saving now



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www.krawdaddy.net (http://www.krawdaddy.net)
http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/contrib/sarge/happyNeo.gif
geoffrey@krawdaddy.net
etc.....

check out that new Dragon board by Soyo.. I have been really impressed with what I read about it. www.soyousa.com (http://www.soyousa.com) I think.. if not www.soyo.com (http://www.soyo.com)

I really like abit, but this board has impressed me. Should come down from $140 in the next month or 2 since it is new.



------------------
www.krawdaddy.net (http://www.krawdaddy.net)
http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/contrib/sarge/happyNeo.gif
geoffrey@krawdaddy.net
etc.....

What do you guys know about the Athlon MP processors? (those are the multiprocs right?) How are they? What is a good mobo.

Can someoen explain the raid system to me...

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Manu Narayan

AMD fan here...

My current system:

AMD Athlon 1.0G, Abit KT-7A (you can get the RAID feature as well), 512 Mb mem PC-133. GeForce 2 MX and SB Live... You should be able to put that together for scratch right now, and that will take ANY piece of software currently that you can throw at it.

Whatever you do, don't make the same mistake I did and buy a cheap motherboard.

I think once the PC market wakes up again, we are going to see another major jump in speed and performance, so I wouldn't put big bucks into a system right now.

RAID allows you to use the Ultra DMA/100 capacity and includes 2 extra EIDE ports. However, to answer your question, what RAID does is to take multiple disk drives, and treat it as a single unit. RAID stands for Redundant Array of Independent Drives. That's the short answer.

Make sure that you slobber lots of heat sink compound on the top of the AMD chip, and use a fan rated at higher capacity than your chip... I currently use a fan rated for a 1.5G Athlon, but keeps my chip plenty cool. Runs about 70*F under normal circumstances, and about 96*F under full load.

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

So what is the beneift of raid like that?

(For the record there are multiple forms of raid, servers use it in a differnet situation.)

Is the abit mobo the good one? Or the cheap one? :P

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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by Turbostang:
I think once the PC market wakes up again, we are going to see another major jump in speed and performance, so I wouldn't put big bucks into a system right now.[b]
I would disagree with you here. I read somewhere that since the 8088 days, clock speed has risen x amount, processor die size has shrunk x amount, but the actual memory saving routines or new ways to make the processor think better haven't risen at all. Basically, the processor is somewhat the same ideas since the 1980's, just faster and smaller, not better. Intel isn't sure if they can go higher and higher, and nor is AMD until they spend some time working on a new ground-up design.

[b]Make sure that you slobber lots of heat sink compound on the top of the AMD chip, and use a fan rated at higher capacity than your chip... I currently use a fan rated for a 1.5G Athlon, but keeps my chip plenty cool. Runs about 70*F under normal circumstances, and about 96*F under full load.
No, do NOT do that. While you should slobber some arctic silver on your chip/cooler, don't waste a whole tube and have it coming out the sides. Since it is very conductive, the slightest electric going through it will make your Athlon into a bomb. Instead, just put about a quarter round, by 2 quarters deep. That should be enough to properly spread the processor and heat sink and not come out the sides.

Also, on your chip cooler, take a credit card and scratch that gooey stuff they used to hold the warning label on. That stuff hurts your cooling ability as it prevents the arctic silver from making a full contact with the copper/alum base.

Originally posted by Manu:

So what is the benefit of raid like that?


RAID systems can be configured in several different ways. My motivation was to decrease the time it takes to load or write a file.

The RAID system decreases file load and write time by taking advantage of the hard drives burst speed. Hard drives are fast for small files but slow down on large files after the cache fills up. The RAID parses the file between several drives so the drives are always bursting. This scatters your file between the drives and there is increased risk of corrupting files. If one drive crashes you loose the works. I backup certain directories to another drive that’s on a normal HD controller or to CD, depending. For me the speed is worth the risk of full re-install of software. I estimate I got a 50% gain. It's not twice as fast but it's a welcome improvement. An ATA100 RAID strip0 would be about as fast as an IDE 7200RPM ATA150 if one existed. Maybe even a little faster http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

The other reason people use RAID is so they can transparently store redundant files on different drives as they work. Important if your data is irreplaceable. Loose one drive your saved by the other drive.

Some even configure redundant pairs. That's a lot invested in hard drives, not to mention the increased heat and mounting problems. Full tower for them I suppose.


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We aren't discussing anything.

Manu, ABIT is the good one! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif Right now, I would only use an ABIT or ASUS board. I built my old man's machine witht he ASUS A7A266 board, and that MB kicks ass.

ROFL! Slayer...

No, I'm not suggesting he use so much that it ooze out the sides, but enough to cover the processor and all the cache banks as well...

Both Intel and AMD are expecting to see speeds of 4 GHz and maybe more within 2 years. I'm also hearing rumors of 128 bit architecture coming along as well. We'll see.

At any rate, the software market is still lagging behind the capacity of the PC at the moment, and probably for the next little while. Mainstream computer sales are still along the lines of Compaq Presarios with low end Pentium 4 chips/128Mb RAm/8Mb video.



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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Thanks for the info. I think the raid setup is overkill ;-) I don't want to have to deal with a larger chance of corrupting files.

Turbo, intel is going to have a 4GHz process by the end of next year, possibly 5.

Like I said before, one of the BIGGEST lags in the industry is the ahrd drive speed. Everything else is based on electronic pulses, teh HD remains mechanical. If we could get a cheap/efficient/safe means of permanent electronic storage...we'd be in business.

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Manu Narayan

Ahhh time to post my .000132 cents.

Manu your first decision was CPU. Personally I use Intel over AMD, however it isnt based on any type of factual evidence. e.g. Red is my favorite color.

But I would easily say go with the most processing power for the buck. Would I swtich to AMD? In a heartbeat.

Although the manufacturers try to make it out that there are big differences between these CPU's, real-life experiences have proved to me that the observed differences are NEGLIGABLE.

My vote on this one would be a Dual Athlon CPU setup.

Also, use a proven MB. Many, many of my problems have been due to poor MB engineering (not defects).

Also, its safe to say 1Gb RAM should be standard.

In hard drives, 7200 rpm will help, but I still get blistering HD access from a SCSI/RAID setup. Anyway you look at it running a RAID will be $800-2000 by itself.

A tip on your hard drive configuration, if you are going to have more than one hard drive, put your swap file on a hard drive on a different channel then your primary HD. I have experience noticable performance gains doing this, particular when working with massive Images in photoshop etc.

Currently I have a 5400 RPM 10Gb WD dedicated to holding an 8GB Swap file.

I cant wait until the next time I rebuild my computer. My advise to you:

#1 Check out krex.com for parts first. I get everything there.

processor- AMD, unless you plan to buy the most expensive, fastest from intel
Motherboard- depending on what AMD you get, you may need a Socket 7 or Slot A.
Ram- sdram is cheap right now, I hear that ddr ram is nice, but costs more.
harddrive- you dont need raid but maybe if you find a deal.

I wish I could remember where I saw a nice mb for amd, with drr support... for 170.

Originally posted by ChaoticThoughts:

I wish I could remember where I saw a nice mb for amd, with drr support... for 170.

Soyo Dragon K7V... 266fsb, DDR, Raid, 5.1 sound, 10/100, etc.... all for $140 on pricewatch.com that is the one I plan on getting.. that and a 1.4ghz 266fsb Tbird is around $250. 256mb 2100 DDR is $27 bux!
www.pricewatch.com (http://www.pricewatch.com)

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www.krawdaddy.net (http://www.krawdaddy.net)
http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/contrib/sarge/happyNeo.gif
geoffrey@krawdaddy.net
etc.....

Maybe you want an AMD XP.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1543&p=11

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We aren't discussing anything.

[This message has been edited by u8nxprt (edited 10-09-2001).]

Exactly, the price is sooooo right on them too. Buy the XP 1500+ and it will be operating faster than the Intel Pentium 4 2.0ghz in just about every test. Add that with the speed of a KT266A motherboard, PC2400 DDR, and you're on your way to ass whuppin.

I think I am going to wait to see how the Intel Oct 29 price cuts work the amd stuff. Intel is givng the 2Ghz a 25% price reduction, that may force AMD to give a small one too...

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Manu Narayan

^
dumb head.

Manu: Another benefit of RAID is that you can run it in RAID 1, which creates two identical hard disks, which increases your data integrity by a LOT. In addition, if you have three hard drives, you can run RAID 0+1, which gives you the speed benefits of RAID 0 and the data integrity of RAID 1. Observe:

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/r/raid-1.html

In addition, I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend a motherboard with the KT266a chipset. It is very, very fast. Some motherboards for sale at newegg.com, a vendor for which I have the highest respect (I have bought from them on over a half a dozen occasions, or you can check resellerratings.com) are the Shuttle AK31a, the Gigabyte GA-7VTXE, the MSI K7T266 PRO2, and the EPOX EP-8KHA+. The Soyo Dragon is an amazingly good motherboard, but since it is based (currently) on the KT266 (not a) chipset, it is significantly not as fast as the KT266a boards mentioned. However, within the next 30 days a version of the board will come out in KT266a, since the pinouts of the chipset are identical, so that will be something to look for.

One note about hard drives is that you need to keep IBMs quite cool, and that they have a high failure rate for their class. I own several 60gxps and have not had a problem, but many people do. I have heard great things about the newer western digital 7200 rpm drives.

www.storagereview.com (http://www.storagereview.com) (Check out the leaderboard)

Ram: only buy from Crucial, Corsair, or Mushkin. Crucial is my personal favorite because it's cheap and fast, but Corsair tends to be (slightly) better for overclocking.

Graphics: Whatever you do, don't buy a Geforce2MX. It'll be a bottleneck in a fast computer.

Sound: I have heard very good things about non-Creative cards http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

did I miss anything?

Originally posted by Manu:
Well, I wanna build a new comp, and I wanna strike a balance between stability, versatility, cost, and power.

So lets first talk about processors...

What do YOU recommend and why? To prioritize, power is more important than cost, so 20-50 bucks doesn't mean much if I will be happier with it.

So here are the basic options I see around...

An Athlon(DDR)
A Dual Athlon(DDR)
A P4 System (DDR or RDRAM)
A Dual P3 Tutalin System (the .13 micron P3, 1.1-1.23 GHz, fast as hell) running SDRAM or DDR if I can find a good mobo that has DDR support.
P3 system

What do you guys recommend? I am not a BIG AMD fan, but I have been seriously debating them due to their massive power/low cost. The only issue I see if with overclocking, and heat. I have been reading articles about how Athlons when they run 'too hot' they burn out fast. P3s shut down, and P4s jsut throttle down...

Any thoughts?


If you are looking for a good do it yourself kit I saw one at Tigerdirect.com. It costs less than $300. Plus Tiger is a pretty reputable company.



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If thinking for myself is a crime I plead guilty.