So, now there is serious talk of $50b to bail out the automakers. They say new CAFE standards require them to spend $100b and they want the government to pay half.

The problem with CAFE is not that the cars can't be made or that any new technology is needed. The problem is American consumers don't want to buy those cars (mainly high efficiency diesel).

Here is my problem with it...the "automakers" (Ford, GM & Chrysler) are not even American companies. They're multinationals. What business do they have asking the American government for money?

The only way I'd start to come over to support it would be if the money had to be paid back. The other thing I'd want is guarantees a certain percentage of their overall workforce be in America (not North America...America) and all new hiring they do has to be in America until the money is paid back.

If they can't survive on their own, **** 'em.

If they can't survive on their own, **** 'em.

I have little sympathy for the American auto bigs nor the greedy UnIoN workers that helped put them in the toilet. The bigs had every opportunity over the last 30 years, after previous oil scares and challenges from better-quality foreign makes to up their game and they waited too long, relied too much on beancounters instead of quality control guys, were screwed by greedy, militant workers and now they're in a mess.

Pouring money into this black hole would be a waste.

These companies have been looted by politicians and fund managers. They did not invest in infrastructure when they needed to. They sucked money out producing no value. Allow them to break up into more nimble organizations run by entrepreneurs who will actually create value.

So, now there is serious talk of $50b to bail out the automakers. They say new CAFE standards require them to spend $100b and they want the government to pay half.

The problem with CAFE is not that the cars can't be made or that any new technology is needed. The problem is American consumers don't want to buy those cars (mainly high efficiency diesel).

Here is my problem with it...the "automakers" (Ford, GM & Chrysler) are not even American companies. They're multinationals. What business do they have asking the American government for money?

The only way I'd start to come over to support it would be if the money had to be paid back. The other thing I'd want is guarantees a certain percentage of their overall workforce be in America (not North America...America) and all new hiring they do has to be in America until the money is paid back.

Well I'm against these sorts of things, but, every industry has been receiving bailouts for decades, and they are essential to our economy, and they are competing with foreign brands who nations manipulate their currency and offer nationalized healthcare.

And Ford is still owned by the Ford family who live in Michigan, they just sell cars around the world.

If youuse that logic there are pretty much zero American corporations left because they sell stuff in other countries...

These mismanaged companies designed, engineered and produced gas guzzling crap and wrapped it in the American flag.

Let the chips fall where they may. There are other companies who produce good cars and trucks who've been operating sensibly.

Well I'm against these sorts of things, but, every industry has been receiving bailouts for decades, and they are essential to our economy, and they are competing with foreign brands who nations manipulate their currency and offer nationalized healthcare.Currency manipulation is a legitimate gripe. However, the way that should be handled is with trade policy, not corporate bailouts.

And Ford is still owned by the Ford family who live in Michigan, they just sell cars around the world.They own a lot of it, but I don't think they even have a majority share anymore. In any case, selling cars around the world isn't the problem...shipping the design and engineering jobs to Asia and shipping the production line to Mexico is the problem.

If youuse that logic there are pretty much zero American corporations left because they sell stuff in other countries...No, they make stuff in other countries for import into the US. That is what makes them multinational. They do not salute any flag. They'd only salute a Benjamin if you ran it up a flag pole. That's where their loyalties reside. Their headquarters might be here, but that doesn't make them American.

Oh, and BTW, one other restriction I'd impose as a condition of the bailout is that they source a minimum percentage of their parts from America (not from "American" companies...made in America).

These mismanaged companies designed, engineered and produced gas guzzling crap and wrapped it in the American flag.

Let the chips fall where they may. There are other companies who produce good cars and trucks who've been operating sensibly.

In the past yes, now things hae changed, other companies have their problems too, and produce a lot of "crap".

I don’t see why America is expected to bail out the Big Three automakers, which are all manufacturing in China. They will never return to American shores.

These companies left the United States for cheap labor overseas, so I feel no sympathy for their current problems. In fact, let China bail them out and furnish them with the funds they need for hybrid retooling and modernizing their assembly plants. After all, these plants are on foreign soil and have cheap foreign labor, or didn’t the Big Three think about this when they pulled out?

Most of today’s Chevys are 100 percent foreign made, with just an American nameplate. Even the nameplate is made overseas!

Ironically, isn’t it rather funny how a word has almost faded out of the dictionary. You don’t hear “recall” much anymore. I guess the cheap labor must be assembling a perfect automobile.

In the past yes, now things hae changed, other companies have their problems too, and produce a lot of "crap".Those who made their beds should sleep in them. This is not a national crisis.

Currency manipulation is a legitimate gripe. However, the way that should be handled is with trade policy, not corporate bailouts.

Well are we going to help foreigners or our own? I'll go with our own.


They own a lot of it, but I don't think they even have a majority share anymore. In any case, selling cars around the world isn't the problem...shipping the design and engineering jobs to Asia and shipping the production line to Mexico is the problem.

They own a controlling stake, how many corporations that have been around for over a hundred years can still say they are family owned?

Who has sent all their design and engineering jobs to Asia? Most production lines are either here or in Canada, all companies are building small cars in Mexico due to their low profitability, including the Asians and the Euro's.



No, they make stuff in other countries for import into the US. That is what makes them multinational. They do not salute any flag. They'd only salute a Benjamin if you ran it up a flag pole. That's where their loyalties reside. Their headquarters might be here, but that doesn't make them American.

What on Earth? Out of all industry's, the automakers are the most "American" still, most cars and trucks are still built here, as apposed to companies like Wal-Fart or Nike that are considered "American" that build none of their stuff here.


Oh, and BTW, one other restriction I'd impose as a condition of the bailout is that they source a minimum percentage of their parts from America (not from "American" companies...made in America).

I know they try, these days though you can't with everything, does anybody even make computers here anymore? If nobody makes them here, there's not much they can do. Decades of stupid free trade policies have made it this way.

Those who made their beds should sleep in them. This is not a national crisis.

It is a symptom of a national crisis, but it is not the cause nor is treating this symptom going to reduce the impact of the crisis itself. Bailouts of any industry but banking at this point equates to using botox to treat heart disease. The patient will look better as they continue to die.

I don’t see why America is expected to bail out the Big Three automakers, which are all manufacturing in China. They will never return to American shores.


Jesus flucking christ, why does everybody on this board believe in these flat out ridiculous things?

The big 3 make most of their cars and trucks here in America, they also have factories in Asia, but for the Asian market only. The UAW would be suprised that they are really building cars that don'y exist!


These companies left the United States for cheap labor overseas, so I feel no sympathy for their current problems.

Uh, no they didn't.


In fact, let China bail them out and furnish them with the funds they need for hybrid retooling and modernizing their assembly plants.

Why? What does China have anything to do with this?


After all, these plants are on foreign soil and have cheap foreign labor, or didn’t the Big Three think about this when they pulled out?


You've been sorely mis-informed by that foreign company Toyota who works it's workers to death.

http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562


Most of today’s Chevys are 100 percent foreign made, with just an American nameplate. Even the nameplate is made overseas!

Wow, complete and total fabrication! The US autoworkers must be fake!

http://assets.bizjournals.com/story_image/71573-0-0-2.jpg
Assembly line workers at GM's Powertrain plant in Tonawanda.

In New York!

Ironically, isn’t it rather funny how a word has almost faded out of the dictionary. You don’t hear “recall” much anymore. I guess the cheap labor must be assembling a perfect automobile.

Jesus man, where do you dream up this stuff?

You do, it's just these guys doing most of it these days..

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=toyota+recalls&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

Those who made their beds should sleep in them. This is not a national crisis.

I'd agree if the fools who did so were still in charge, and the hundreds of thousands of workers that don't make the bad decisions don't deserve to lose their jobs over something they didn't cause..

Their exorbitant union wages are at least partially to blame.

Their exorbitant union wages are at least partially to blame.They weren't too exorbitant for the company to agree to. Both sides hammered out and then signed the contracts, which also bound both sides to adhere to.

I'd agree if the fools who did so were still in charge, and the hundreds of thousands of workers that don't make the bad decisions don't deserve to lose their jobs over something they didn't cause..Nobody deserves to lose his job due to bad management, but it happens every day. As a corollary, nobody should be rewarded for dismal performance.

let them fend for themselves. im pissed the airlines got a bail out, im pissed am trak has been bailed out, im getting tired of companies getting bailed out at OUR expense but when we need a bail out suddenly noone is there to help us.

**** them and **** the politicians who support this shit.

I don’t see why America is expected to bail out the Big Three automakers, which are all manufacturing in China. They will never return to American shores.

These companies left the United States for cheap labor overseas, so I feel no sympathy for their current problems. In fact, let China bail them out and furnish them with the funds they need for hybrid retooling and modernizing their assembly plants. After all, these plants are on foreign soil and have cheap foreign labor, or didn’t the Big Three think about this when they pulled out?

Most of today’s Chevys are 100 percent foreign made, with just an American nameplate. Even the nameplate is made overseas!

Ironically, isn’t it rather funny how a word has almost faded out of the dictionary. You don’t hear “recall” much anymore. I guess the cheap labor must be assembling a perfect automobile.

2008 VEHICLES BUILT BY UNION MEMBERS
IN THE UNITED STATES & CANADA

UAW CARS

Buick Lucerne
Cadillac CTS
Cadillac DTS
Cadillac STS
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Cobalt
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Hybrid
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Avenger
Dodge Caliber
Dodge Viper
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang
Ford Taurus
Lincoln MKS
Mazda 6
Mercury Sable
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Galant
Pontiac G5
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Solstice
Pontiac Vibe
Saturn Aura/Aura Hybrid
Saturn Sky
Toyota Corolla*

UAW PICKUPS

Chevrolet Colorado
Dodge Dakota
Dodge Ram Pickup*
Ford Explorer Sport Trac
Ford F-Series*
Ford Ranger
GMC Canyon
Isuzu i-Series
Lincoln Mark LT
Mazda B-series
Mitsubishi Raider
Toyota Tacoma*

UAW SUVs/CUVs

Buick Enclave
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac Escalade ESV
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Suburban*
Chevrolet Tahoe/
Tahoe Hybrid
Chrysler Aspen
Dodge Durango
Dodge Nitro
Ford Escape/Escape Hybrid
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Taurus X
GMC Acadia
GMC Yukon/Yukon Hybrid
GMC Yukon Denali
Hummer H1
Hummer H2
Hummer H3
Jeep Commander
Jeep Compass
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Liberty
Jeep Patriot
Jeep Wrangler
Lincoln Navigator
Mazda Tribute/Tribute Hybrid
Mercury Mariner/Mariner Hybrid
Mercury Mountaineer
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Saturn Outlook

UAW VANS

Ford E-series
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Uplander
GMC Savana

CAW CARS

Buick Lacrosse
Chevrolet Impala
Chrysler 300
Dodge Challenger
Dodge Charger
Ford Crown Victoria
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis
Pontiac Grand Prix

CAW SUVs/CUVs

Chevrolet Equinox
Chrysler Pacifica
Dodge Magnum
Ford Edge
Lincoln MKX
Pontiac Torrent
Suzuki XL7

UAW/CAW PICKUPS

Chevrolet Silverado*
GMC Sierra*

UAW/CAW Vans

Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Caravan

IUE SUVs/CUVs

Chevrolet TrailBlazer
GMC Envoy
GMC Envoy Denali
Isuzu Ascender
Saab 9-7X

http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2008/index.cfm

Sure, they put them together, but where do the parts come from?

all over, unfortunately. yes, there's foreign parts in US cars, but also US parts in foreign cars. every modern car built today contains parts manufactured by GM.

The parts procurement manager at the Taurus plant in Hapeville, GA used to hang out at a bar I used to frequent. He said the Taurus was about 75% foreign parts.

They weren't too exorbitant for the company to agree to.

Well, to be fair to the automakers, pretty much every contract they ever "agreed" to with a union was signed with a blackmail gun to their heads: You sign or we strike.

The B3 designed shit and the unions demanded paid too much to build it.

Now that the B3 are showing signs of finally being able to build decent automobiles, it's too late. GM pays $1635 health care costs per vehicle for current and retired workers. Toyota pays $215 and this only for active workers. Someone, a union member no doubt, might be tempted to say "Well look at that, GM treats its workers better...", but clearly they'll fail to see the incredible and unsustainable financial load that places on GM.

Add this to the B3s concentration on trucks and SUVs and the surge in fuel prices and you have a recipe for disaster.

The only thing that's going to help these boneheaded outfits now is if they start selling vehicles they sell in other markets here in North America. Europe and Australia have many vehicles built by GM and Ford and their subsidiaries that look brilliant but which we can't get here...

Well, to be fair to the automakers, pretty much every contract they ever "agreed" to with a union was signed with a blackmail gun to their heads: You sign or we strike.Poor, poor capitalist company owners, begging for mercy from their employees.

Gimme a break. You've been brainwashed. Nobody signs contracts they don't agree to in big business, and they do so because of what they're getting out of them. The more the workers make, the more everyone above them makes.

Poor, poor capitalist company owners, begging for mercy from their employees.

You're mistaken. I have no sympathy for the corporate giants like GM and their overpaid, underperforming executives. And FWIW, GM is publicly traded so its "owners" are you and me.

My point was that there's enough blame to go around, both to management and to the workers. While GM proper designed crap, its militant workforce also demanded more than they were worth.

Nobody signs contracts they don't agree to in big business, and they do so because of what they're getting out of them.

:shrug: In most instances I'd agree. However, whenever unions are involved, there is always the overlying strike threat, the threat of shutting down plants and supply chains and costing millions a day. In 1996, a UAW strike at two GM parts plants shut down lines across the country, costing GM $50-million a day. The contract GM signed to get itself out from under this was in all likelihood not the best contract, from a financial perspective, that GM could have negotiated. Union contract "negotiations" are not typical business contracts.

And people wonder why corporations seek to outsource...

I have little sympathy for the American auto bigs nor the greedy UnIoN workers that helped put them in the toilet. The bigs had every opportunity over the last 30 years, after previous oil scares and challenges from better-quality foreign makes to up their game and they waited too long, relied too much on beancounters instead of quality control guys, were screwed by greedy, militant workers and now they're in a mess.

Pouring money into this black hole would be a waste.

It's been tried before too, (Chrysler). And now they're back again, hats in hand, asking for more.

You're mistaken. I have no sympathy for the corporate giants like GM and their overpaid, underperforming executives. And FWIW, GM is publicly traded so its "owners" are you and me.

My point was that there's enough blame to go around, both to management and to the workers. While GM proper designed crap, its militant workforce also demanded more than they were worth.



:shrug: In most instances I'd agree. However, whenever unions are involved, there is always the overlying strike threat, the threat of shutting down plants and supply chains and costing millions a day. In 1996, a UAW strike at two GM parts plants shut down lines across the country, costing GM $50-million a day. The contract GM signed to get itself out from under this was in all likelihood not the best contract, from a financial perspective, that GM could have negotiated. Union contract "negotiations" are not typical business contracts.

And people wonder why corporations seek to outsource...If you have evidence that illegal coercion was used to get management to sign their contracts, take it to the Justice Dept.

Otherwise, two parties entered into an agreement for their mutual advantage. Period.

**** em.
GM owns Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GM Daewoo, GMC, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn and Vauxhall.
Ford Owns Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Volvo, Aston Martin, and 1/3 of Mazda.

They will survive, even if their American divisions aren't turning a profit.

If you have evidence that illegal coercion was used to get management to sign their contracts, take it to the Justice Dept.

I'm not saying it's illegal. The law allows unions to blackmail companies and taxpayers. This doesn't make it any less disgusting a tactic and that it's the exception, rather than the rule, when talking about business contracts being signed under duress.

Why do teacher's unions, for instance, always wait till the fall before calling strike action? Why do postal workers choose to strike during, say, Christmas?

Otherwise, two parties entered into an agreement for their mutual advantage. Period.

Are you a union member?

I'm not saying it's illegal. The law allows unions to blackmail companies and taxpayers. You're contradicting yourself. Blackmail is illegal. Why do postal workers choose to strike during, say, Christmas?They don't. Like railroad workers and air traffic controllers in the US, they can't strike (we are talking about the US, aren't we?)Are you a union member?You bet, even in retirement.

Thank God for unions.

Back to the case where some union members are not being permitted to strike, the unions and their employers are required to submit to binding arbitration if there is an impasse reached during negotiations. If that were agreed to by both parties as a standing contractual term throughout the labor force, there would be few strikes by anyone. There's usually no net win from striking by either side. Binding arbitration avoids those losses.

You're contradicting yourself. Blackmail is illegal.

I'm waiting for you to explain how using the threat of a strike if a union does not get its way is not blackmail.

They don't. Like railroad workers and air traffic controllers in the US, they can't strike (we are talking about the US, aren't we?)

I'm Canadian. Far as I know, postal workers can strike here.

Besides, you dodged the question: Why do teachers unions choose the beginning of a school year to strike? Why not wait out the school year and picket over the summer?

How can this knife to the throats of parents and children not affect the outcome of negotiations?

You bet, even in retirement.

I figured.

2008 VEHICLES BUILT BY UNION MEMBERS
IN THE UNITED STATES & CANADA
"Assembled" in the US and Canada.

Who has sent all their design and engineering jobs to Asia?Ford is in the process of sending their electrical system design work to Asia. Maybe you didn't hear they let go a couple thousand white collar workers recently?


What on Earth? Out of all industry's, the automakers are the most "American" still, most cars and trucks are still built here, as apposed to companies like Wal-Fart or Nike that are considered "American" that build none of their stuff here. They "assemble" it here, it isn't "built" here.

I know they try, these days though you can't with everything...They try? Bull. I've worked in the industry for various suppliers for 15 years. Where a product is made is not a consideration in their sourcing decisions. There is no preference given to made-in-America product. In fact, quite the opposite...most suppliers have been "encouraged" (practically forced) to move their production to Mexico and China.

What they "try" to do is get the lowest price...and they are very good at that, believe me. Little else matters.

There is not one vehicle assembled or sold in the US that has a wiring harness made in the USA. The parts all come from Mexico too...and increasingly from China. Go have a look under the hood of any 2008 or 2009 GM car. Open the power distribution box and look at the relays. 9 times out of 10, they'll be stamped "MADE IN CHINA".

Funny thing is...despite the drive to cheapen everything, I haven't noticed the prices of the cars at my local dealership going down. Have you?

...does anybody even make computers here anymore? If nobody makes them here, there's not much they can do. Decades of stupid free trade policies have made it this way.Why would anyone make computers here? They can't compete with companies making computers in China with near slave labor conditions. If price were not the number one driver, perhaps there would still be some US suppliers of computers.

all over, unfortunately. yes, there's foreign parts in US cars, but also US parts in foreign cars. every modern car built today contains parts manufactured by GM.Hahaha...that's hilarious. GM makes very little of their own parts. Why would they? It costs more to have it in house and there's no competition. Look what happened to the industry. Ford spun off their parts division to create Visteon. GM did the same to create Delphi. Go check how much of their product is made in the US...vitually none.

The only stuff the automakers (auto assemblers) make themselves is stuff no one else wants to make. Believe me, if there was more than one company willing to build any part, they'd conduct a bidding war until both suppliers are on the verge of bankruptcy. They'd love to do that more than build it themselves.

Just because the box you get at the dealership parts department says "Ford" or "GM" on it, that doesn't mean they actually made the part.

I'm waiting for you to explain how using the threat of a strike if a union does not get its way is not blackmail.

How is the threat of closing a plant if employees don't take a pay cut not count as blackmail? Unions balance the playing field. A handful of management have a great deal of power over the lives of many people. Unions give the people working for them some counterweight when they are at the negotiating table. How can you support a company, which is basically a group of investors coordinating to set prices, take profits, and control an organization, while not supporting unions who are basically doing the exact same thing. Large companies learned that they could use their size advantage to give them greater leverage over the labor population. Labor learned that it could also coordinate to give it an equal counter-lever.

I'm Canadian. Far as I know, postal workers can strike here. Then bring it up when we're discussing a bailout of Canadian auto manufacturers.Besides, you dodged the question: Why do teachers unions choose the beginning of a school year to strike? Why not wait out the school year and picket over the summer?Are you serious? Waiting until there's no work to have a work stoppage?
How can this knife to the throats of parents and children not affect the outcome of negotiations?Bingo. You've stumbled upon its purpose.

How is the threat of closing a plant if employees don't take a pay cut not count as blackmail?

Automakers are buying a product from labourers. That product is their skill and time. If automakers decide that the product being offered is overpriced they should have the ability to shop elsewhere. It's a free market, isn't it?

When the union doesn't get its way, it doesn't step aside and let competitive labour bid on the deal, do they? Indeed, unions don't know the meaning of the word "compete." No, they shutter a plant that doesn't belong to them.

Can you imagine any other market where, if you didn't buy something, a bunch of obese thugs would come to your house, set up burning barrels and pickets and prevent you from buying that something somewhere else?

For some reason we tolerate this racket from unionists.

Unions balance the playing field.

No, unions are a thuggish racket. Is it any wonder the mob is so wrapped up in these outfits?

I go to Joe's Auto and kick the tires on a Mustang. I decide to go elsewhere because the price is too high and what do I find when I come home but Joe and his goons blocking my driveway. They spray paint "scab" on the side of the car I just bought and continue to block my driveway and prevent me from getting to and from work.

Labour is a commodity, bought and sold. Unions have completely distorted that concept by strongarming companies into what amounts to protection rackets.

Labor learned that it could also coordinate to give it an equal counter-lever.

Car companies sell more cars when they do it cheaper and/or make it better. GM can command more for a Corvette than a Malibu because it's rarer, more polished, more powerful and so on. Ferrari sells their cars at a premium because they're rare and exclusive and so much better than everything else out there and thus there's a market for them.

If unionists want more money they should better their product. Sports superstars make the money they do because no one else can do what they do. Any freakin' chimpanzee can screw a grille to a Malibu but how many people can design the engine management system? Which is worth more to a company?

Unions may have "leveled" the playing field but it's so artificial and we're seeing that house of cards fall in now: Outsourcing.

Thank <insert deity here>. Perhaps now, finally, unions and unionists will actually have to give up their monopoly and compete to sell their wares.

Automakers are buying a product from labourers. That product is their skill and time. If automakers decide that the product being offered is overpriced they should have the ability to shop elsewhere. It's a free market, isn't it?Then you understand why the unions play hardball, too.

The rest of your post is rather over the top.

Automakers are buying a product from labourers. That product is their skill and time. If automakers decide that the product being offered is overpriced they should have the ability to shop elsewhere. It's a free market, isn't it?

They do have that power. They can try to get enough labor willing to not have any protections against pay cuts, unfair contracts, etc. They choose not to because it is more economical to provide the contract agreements than it is to pay people enough to leave the union protections. You don't want a free market, you want a market with a single-employer system making all the lifestyle choices for the town the employer takes over. We saw that didn't work. If it did, unions would not have evolved.

When the union doesn't get its way, it doesn't step aside and let competitive labour bid on the deal, do they? Indeed, unions don't know the meaning of the word "compete." No, they shutter a plant that doesn't belong to them.

Can you imagine any other market where, if you didn't buy something, a bunch of obese thugs would come to your house, set up burning barrels and pickets and prevent you from buying that something somewhere else?

For some reason we tolerate this racket from unionists.

Because industrial labor resulted in concentrations of all of the demand for labor being consolidated in one or two non-competing employers. Where there is no competition from without, fair market conditions can not be reached. The unions balance the market back out.

Labour is a commodity, bought and sold. Unions have completely distorted that concept by strongarming companies into what amounts to protection rackets.

Labor is still a commodity. But if you want to control a large portion of the demand market in order to price fix, you have to deal with large concentrations of the supply market coordinating to price fix the other way.

Car companies sell more cars when they do it cheaper and/or make it better. GM can command more for a Corvette than a Malibu because it's rarer, more polished, more powerful and so on. Ferrari sells their cars at a premium because they're rare and exclusive and so much better than everything else out there and thus there's a market for them.

If unionists want more money they should better their product. Sports superstars make the money they do because no one else can do what they do. Any freakin' chimpanzee can screw a grille to a Malibu but how many people can design the engine management system? Which is worth more to a company?

Unions may have "leveled" the playing field but it's so artificial and we're seeing that house of cards fall in now: Outsourcing.

Thank <insert deity here>. Perhaps now, finally, unions and unionists will actually have to give up their monopoly and compete to sell their wares.

Large organizations often have a hard time innovating. They depend upon economies of scale to allow them to work towards the lowest common denominator. The lowest labor costs, the lowest product quality, but the lowest price, in order to dominate the larger market. Ferrari makes cars that require hand building because of their precision. As a result, they fetch a better price. Would a 2000 dollar improvement to the Mustang allow it to keep the same market share with a 2000 dollar price increase at the curb?

The real problem is not unions, and is not monopolies, but is investors and their disconnect from their investments. The last two decades have seen large scale movement of money from a large number of investors to a handful of investment firms creating funds. Their goals are immediate financial return versus increase in value. As a result, the modern executive is a politician running for election from boards made up of politicians elected by a handful of investment banks. They are not entrepreneurs trying to increase value.

Jesus flucking christ, why does everybody on this board believe in these flat out ridiculous things?

The big 3 make most of their cars and trucks here in America, they also have factories in Asia, but for the Asian market only. The UAW would be suprised that they are really building cars that don'y exist!



Uh, no they didn't.




Why? What does China have anything to do with this?





You've been sorely mis-informed by that foreign company Toyota who works it's workers to death.

http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562




Wow, complete and total fabrication! The US autoworkers must be fake!

http://assets.bizjournals.com/story_image/71573-0-0-2.jpg
Assembly line workers at GM's Powertrain plant in Tonawanda.

In New York!



Jesus man, where do you dream up this stuff?

You do, it's just these guys doing most of it these days..

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=toyota+recalls&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

You are of course correct about Americans putting the cars together, but the parts come from Asia.

Look, no American consumer wants the CAFE standards. What American consumers want are cars that don't cost anything, or much of anything, to fill up with whatever is really cheap to make them go.

The problem GM, Chrysler, and Ford face is that they have condemned everyone who has been telling them that they are designing cars that will eventually fail to meet the demands of customers.

The big car companies have instead turned to government and demanded that government deliver free, or at least cheap oil, so that they can make high profits selling houses on wheels, because they make a whole lot more profit on houses which are expensive, than they do on people movers.

If Michigan voters give Michigan's electoral votes to McCain, then I'm all for GM going bankrupt. McCain told them the truth as he sees things for Michigan: "those jobs are gone forever." McCain clearly believes that Michigan can't be an auto manufacturing state, so if the voters vote for McCain, then let's rid Michigan of auto manufacturing.

If they vote for Obama and Obama is elected president, then I think that some aid which sets and supports a public policy for low cost people movers instead of lifestyle bling would be reasonable.

Condition the aid on a 25% bailout tax on the list price of any vehicle sold by the bailed out company that doesn't get 27 MPG, unless it has a cargo capacity of at least five tons, which I think limits them to pretty much to the commercial market and real farmers.

Then you understand why the unions play hardball, too.

What's "hardball" about wanting to minimize costs?

The rest of your post is rather over the top.

In what way? I sell my time and skills to my company and they pay me for it. Simple as that.

If I miss time, I don't get paid. If I don't continually improve my skillset -- know the latest silicon, the lastest development tools, the latest regulatory standards and so on -- my value to the company goes down and they would be well within their rights to seek someone better skilled to fill the job. It's all about competition. Since I have comparatively rare skills, I get paid pretty good to do what I do: supply and demand. That's how natural markets work.

Markets that are manipulated by monopolies, by gouging, by speculation or by racketeering are not natural and thus not sustainable. There's is nothing natural about paying a UAW guy $65/hr to cut the grass. From the National Review:

"Massive job cuts at General Motors, America's largest carmaker — coupled with the bankruptcy of Delphi, America's biggest autoparts maker — have provoked predictable handwringing from liberal pundits who worry that America is "losing its manufacturing base." But the wrenching change now buffeting the auto industry defies the usual press formulas. Just listen to Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi's restructuring process. He exploded the myth of America's "endangered" union manufacturing jobs at his October press conference announcing Delphi's move into Chapter 11: "We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain competitive."
Take grass cutting. As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour."

http://henrypayne.com/pages/articles/index.html

You think GM wants to pay a guy this much money to clean toilets or cut the grass? Do you truly, honestly think the skills required to do these jobs warrants that level of pay? Why would GM enter into a contract with such ludicrous payscales unless they had no choice? Unless the alternative they faced was to have a massive strike shut down there auto business completely for months? This is hardly "two parties {entering** into an agreement for their mutual advantage."

There is nothing normal or natural about this. Never has been. The writing has been on the wall for ages, as more and more companies seek to outsource their unrealistically expensive labour. As long as unions continue to demand the unsustainable, the trend will continue. We see that unions are finally starting to get a clue:

"General Motors and the United Auto Workers agreed to a new class of jobs that would pay about half the current rate, breaking with the UAW's tradition of equal earnings for union members, people with knowledge of the plan said.

Under a four-year accord reached Sept. 26, all new employees would start in so-called non-core jobs such as janitorial and maintenance work and make about $28 an hour in pay and benefits, compared with $51 for present employees, the people said. They asked not to be identified because contract details haven't been released."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aUQ.gxdsuh8I&refer=home

Probably too little too late...

You think GM wants to pay a guy this much money to clean toilets or cut the grass? You'd have to be insane to think this is normal. However, union automaker jobs are a dying breed. I can't tell you how many plants that I used to visit frequently are now closed down. Have a look at the Packard Electric division of Delphi. There used to be several plants in Warren, OH that produced sparkplug wires, terminals, etc. There was also a huge engineering center. Almost all of the manufacturing jobs are gone and about 90% of the engineering jobs went to Mexico. Today, Warren is like a ghost town littered with delapidated old factories. It is little more than a rusting monument to America's previous status as a great manufacturing power.