Pastor Wright and Sen. Obama's relationship:

Pastor for 20 years,

Friend, Mentor,

Spiritual leader,

Gave inspiration to write a book, 'Audacity of Hope',

Was married by him,

Baptized two daughters by him,

Thanked him after he won the Senate seat,

Consulted him before deciding to run for president,

Prayed privately with him before announcing his candidacy,

Member of his campaign team (resigned today),

And was like an uncle.



Sen. Obama said that he NEVER HEARD of this kind of comment from the pastor!!



http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1166/obamastupidamericansvt4.jpg

God damnit, he was like a crazy God damn uncle! God damn America!

I don't believe in guilt by association, but if Barak believes anyone in America will believe his didn't know what makes this guy tick, he is far less savvy than he's been passing himself off to be.

This whole liberation theology is misunderstood and had been twisted into racism by certain preachers and parishioners.

The question is, does Barak BELIEVE in this guy's teachings, and if he does, he can't admit it, or he's finished. He must lie if he truly is in line with this guy's philosophy, and he knows it. He's no fool.

I actually had a crazy uncle growing up, but he didn't hate anybody. That's a lame excuse IMO, and another hard to swallow answer. That's also a pretty rotten thing to say about your "mentor" and "friend".

He'll have to come forward and explain himself, which he'll do today. If he does it right, this will go away in a few weeks, if not, it could stick, and he could become linked to this guy. The cmpaign has known this from day one, and distanced itself from him, and Wright himself made a comment that if America finds out what he's said about Jews for all these years, they'll drop Obama. Time will tell.

Many of his supporters who have lifted him to this position will be very disappointed in him if he's a closet bigot. He doesn't seem to be, but he's a politician, so you can never really be sure about anything he says. He's out for himself, not "us".

Either way, I bet he wishes he had never embraced this guy. My grandfather always said, "Show me your friends and I'll tell you what you are". There's lots of truth in that.

I couldn't possibly care less.

I couldn't possibly care less.

I'm not sure I can either, but I'm certainly going to try. ;) I guess some people just can't get over not having DoctorRonPaulEmDee "sole defender of the constitution" as an option any more.

Barack Obama just made people like Pat Buchanan (who is blathering on with his foolishness on MSNBC right now) look like the simpletons that they actually are. Racist jerks like Buchanan wouldn't ever vote for a black man - even if that man were God himself - so it doesn't matter whether someone like him was moved by what Barack said today.

Obama just elevated himself above the entire field of politicos in this society. If we, as a society, lose this brilliant mind to our own pettiness and hateful fear mongering, then we deserve to fall as a result of that loss.

This is an once-in-a-generation leader.

This is an once-in-a-generation leader.

So was Bush!

The more Obama denies, the bigger this story is going to get. It's a LONG way to November.

It seems implausible to me that Obama never heard Wright make these comments or similar comments over the course of 20 years. Why pretend this is the first time he's been exposed to it? That's dumb.

Why not just say you agree with the comments made by Wright? There really is no other way to dismiss the whole thing. We know he's heard it before and we know he's been a long time member of the congregation. If he strongly objected, he would have left a long time ago.

i listened to the speech in its entirety. he repeatedly admitted that over the course of their relationship he disagreed with his pastor in a number of ways, but if you paid attention to the context, he recognized that most would not disown and separate from someone that was very much family over these sorts of disagreements. he also pointed out that to let a couple of soundbytes, no matter how inexcusable they were, to represent the entirety of a person. i feel like i might not get along with his pastor, but i suppose it's not fair to 'know' that i wouldn't based on a few sentences.

i think obama is very much a socialist. i think he has too much faith in human beings. i think if he was elected, he would be very much complicit in the government trying to disarm US citizens. In regard to race, and community, and education, and generally understanding one another and getting along, i know he made a very eloquent, moving and surprisingly heartfelt-seeming speech. If he meant what he said in regard to those things, he's not all bad. at the very least, as was pointed out, he elevated himself above a lot of politicians, and showed that he has far more fiber than hillary clinton. as a matter of fact, i don't see how any democrat could vote for her over him. she's rotten to the core, methinks.

This is a great example of why we should keep religion out of politics. It resolves nothing.

Pastor Wright and Sen. Obama's relationship:

Pastor for 20 years,

Friend, Mentor,

Spiritual leader,

Gave inspiration to write a book, 'Audacity of Hope',

Was married by him,

Baptized two daughters by him,

Thanked him after he won the Senate seat,

Consulted him before deciding to run for president,

Prayed privately with him before announcing his candidacy,

Member of his campaign team (resigned today),

And was like an uncle.



Sen. Obama said that he NEVER HEARD of this kind of comment from the pastor!!



http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1166/obamastupidamericansvt4.jpg

Two things that immediately come to mind:

1) You should maybe consider decaff

2) Funny how Obama gets to be a liar and idiot George and his many lies aren't an issue.

2-A) Or are you going to suggest that "McCrazy" is the best of the field and should be taken seriously ( which is of course a laughable proposition at best.)

So was Bush!

I will take that to mean that we won't have to suffer anyone else who is a dismal failure of the magnitude that idiot George has demonstrated himself to be for a while:not:

Two things that immediately come to mind:

1) You should maybe consider decaff

2) Funny how Obama gets to be a liar and idiot George and his many lies aren't an issue.

2-A) Or are you going to suggest that "McCrazy" is the best of the field and should be taken seriously ( which is of course a laughable proposition at best.)

Decaff? The post is about Obama the racist.........NOT Bush or anyone else.

Barack Obama just made people like Pat Buchanan (who is blathering on with his foolishness on MSNBC right now) look like the simpletons that they actually are. Racist jerks like Buchanan wouldn't ever vote for a black man - even if that man were God himself - so it doesn't matter whether someone like him was moved by what Barack said today.

Obama just elevated himself above the entire field of politicos in this society. If we, as a society, lose this brilliant mind to our own pettiness and hateful fear mongering, then we deserve to fall as a result of that loss.

This is an once-in-a-generation leader.

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Obama is a racist.

i listened to the speech in its entirety. he repeatedly admitted that over the course of their relationship he disagreed with his pastor in a number of ways, but if you paid attention to the context, he recognized that most would not disown and separate from someone that was very much family over these sorts of disagreements. he also pointed out that to let a couple of soundbytes, no matter how inexcusable they were, to represent the entirety of a person. i feel like i might not get along with his pastor, but i suppose it's not fair to 'know' that i wouldn't based on a few sentences.

I got the same thing from that speech, and from everything else Obama's said about this issue so far. The United Church of Christ is made up of 90% white people and the national leadership is white. If that preacher was popping off like that all the time, that leadership would've pressured the elders to fire him a long time ago.

That said, to ignore the fact that many blacks from that generation still hold resentment for how they were treated is just plain stupid. The guy is in his 70s. He remembers when he wasn't allowed to drink from the same water fountain as a white kid. Some of you idiots don't seem to be capable of imagining yourselves as being that shit upon by the entire nation you're supposed to love, but that generation of black folks sure as hell know what it feels like. Even now, it's like they get hell if they don't forgive and forget stuff that's still going on in most places in this country. My in-laws still use the "N" word at the dinner table, and they don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, if I get irritated by one of them going off like that when I'm trying to eat at a gathering, then I'm the ******* because I let it bother me. As if we're all supposed to just let racism be what it is, and try to be civil about allowing racists to be who they are. Unless - of course - the racism is targeting us. Then we're supposed to freak out and make sure everyone pays for allowing it to happen in their presence. This society is so f-ed up.

i think obama is very much a socialist. i think he has too much faith in human beings. i think if he was elected, he would be very much complicit in the government trying to disarm US citizens.

If you mean that he's a "socialist" because he wants to reign in the corporations that are swindling us out of hundreds of billions of our tax dollars for boondoggles and corporate welfare, and poisoning our kids with lead paint toys and tainted food, and turning on us when we need the health care we have already paid insurance premiums in good faith for, and buying up our public servants in order to quietly take over our government while they force us to work two and three jobs to just be able to pay for what it is that we feel we need to survive, then yes - he's a socialist. If that's what you call a socialist, then 75% of the people in this nation are socialists right now.

As far as disarming the citizenry, I completely agree with you that we need to keep our guns. All of them. We'll need them to fix this mess when the average white American finally learns the truth about how the corporates have been screwing them while pitting them against each other with left/right political crap and race baiting rhetoric fed to them by the hired political operatives that keep us all distracted from what's being stolen from us every day.

In regard to race, and community, and education, and generally understanding one another and getting along, i know he made a very eloquent, moving and surprisingly heartfelt-seeming speech. If he meant what he said in regard to those things, he's not all bad. at the very least, as was pointed out, he elevated himself above a lot of politicians, and showed that he has far more fiber than hillary clinton. as a matter of fact, i don't see how any democrat could vote for her over him. she's rotten to the core, methinks.

Barack can't fix the mess we're in, but maybe he can get us working together long enough for us to realize that we're all being f-ed over by the big money people who control the political dialogue in this country. As long as they keep us fighting against each other, they can do what they want while we're focused on the crumbs we get by "winning" these cheap little battles with each other over race, religion, ideology and all the other things that the big money just doesn't care about.

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Obama is a racist.

It's a good thing that nobody takes you seriously.

"lier" is spelled liar.

"lier" is spelled liar.

shhhh

I've been laughing every time I see this thread pop back up to the top. The whole title is priceless. I've already sent it around to friends on other boards. They're all having fun with it.

It's a good thing that nobody takes you seriously.


LOL! Oh, you take me seriously. You wouldn't be replying to my posts if they didn't. I'm glad that my posts bother you. See you in a week or so.




http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5897/obamasmokinghw0.jpg

2-A) Or are you going to suggest that "McCrazy" is the best of the field and should be taken seriously ( which is of course a laughable proposition at best.)

At this point I don't know who I will vote for, but one must take McCain seriously at this time because 67% of voters think McCain is honest and trustworthy, compared with Obama 63% and Clinton 44%. According to the Gallup/CNN poll.

At this point I don't know who I will vote for, but one must take McCain seriously at this time because 67% of voters think McCain is honest and trustworthy, compared with Obama 63% and Clinton 44%. According to the Gallup/CNN poll.

Scary. None of the three are honest and trustworthy. :not:

Scary. None of the three are honest and trustworthy. :not:

What politican in our history has been? I think the poll was asking who of the three is the most honest and trustworthy. Other words, the best of the worst.

Decaff? The post is about Obama the racist.........NOT Bush or anyone else.

Good.

That is about as close you will be moved to admitting that you've got nothing....

If you cannot accept the contrast between the spoon-fed lies of the Bush (mis)admin., or those of the GOP vs. Obama's plain spoken, off the shoulder, guy next door approach to common sense, the thread title is reduced to empty ranting.

(Badly done, inarticulate ranting at that)

At this point I don't know who I will vote for, but one must take McCain seriously at this time because 67% of voters think McCain is honest and trustworthy, compared with Obama 63% and Clinton 44%. According to the Gallup/CNN poll.

I am left wondering just why you would feel that McCain should be taken seriously.

He has all the chance of winning of a snowflake in a thermo-nuke blast as far as I can see.. and the polls are definately not an indication of the groundswell of anger at conservatives in general and against George W. bush and the NeoCons in particular.

McCain has been embraced by George W. bush as well as endorced by him.

While the mainstream media invested valuable air time downplaying that, it registered on the voters that the guy responsible for wall to wall desasters has a clone named McCain who would like to continue the attacks on them that Bush began in 2000 and to date has not stopped.

(Back to the subect), Obama represents the only break from the ongoing soap-opera in D.C that we have seen in what?.... decades?

McCain MAY have the backing of the networks and corporate America, but he DOESN'T have the backing of the majority of the public that would presumably effect the electoral vote.

Whie my first choice for president is still Hillary,she and everyone else who can in any way,shape or form be called progressive should stand behind Barack Obama on this.

Only one word describes Sean Hannity and every other right-winger demamgoguing this :Scum.

Only one word describes anyone supporting a charlatan like Hillary: Retarded.

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Obama is a racist.
He has a white mother, and was raised by her and her parents. His father - Kenyan - was irrelevant. So how does he become a racist? Or are you suggesting he's just pretending to be Black and is a secret member of KKK?

At this point I don't know who I will vote for, but one must take McCain seriously at this time because 67% of voters think McCain is honest and trustworthy, compared with Obama 63% and Clinton 44%. According to the Gallup/CNN poll.

From another Poll ....in 2002.
12. Please tell me whether the following statement applies to Bush or not.

12/15/02 - Summary Table

Yes No No opin.
a. He understands the problems of
people like you 51 47 2
b. He is honest and trustworthy 70 26 4
. He is a strong leader 75 23 2
d. He's got a vision for the future 74 24 3
e. He understands complex issues 63 34 3
f. He has brought needed change
to Washington 53 44 3
g. He has made the country safer
and more secure 65 33 2

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Obama is a racist.

Here's another tip for ya: Da' Nile is a river in Egypt, a very large one, as a matter of fact.

You must be horrible at telling jokes, lousing up your punchline all the time.

Come to think of it, you don't make much sense in regular conversation either.

:corn:

Since Rev. Wright sold video tapes of his fiery sermons, perhaps we can see comparisons with McSame's religious leader. Don't hold your breath. For one, McSame's RL probably wasn't foolish enough to film himself ranting at the pulpit.

Get real. Unless your religious leader is Jim Jones on furlough from Hell, you and everyone else who worships at a given church has disagreements with the minister/priest/rabbi/imam/etc., especially with a few or all of their rants.

The difference in this case: He was the RL for a politician running for the highest office, with a bullseye painted on his back. Now it is suddenly a "given" that followers believe and act on all of it, even the 10% BS that most RL's spew on a bad Sunday (Friday, Saturday, etc.)

The other observation here (and on talk radio): lefties like the fact that Obama dealt with a delicate subject like race relations. Righties look at it as a cynical ploy, a lie, a slick attempt to cover himself. Any comments on the subject of his speech, regardless of Obama's intent?

The more Obama denies, the bigger this story is going to get. It's a LONG way to November.

It seems implausible to me that Obama never heard Wright make these comments or similar comments over the course of 20 years. Why pretend this is the first time he's been exposed to it? That's dumb.

Why not just say you agree with the comments made by Wright? There really is no other way to dismiss the whole thing. We know he's heard it before and we know he's been a long time member of the congregation. If he strongly objected, he would have left a long time ago.





I agree . Since all signs lead to being a closet muslim with hate for America and all it represents 'especailly white founders ' , why not come on out and admit it .:eek7: .

Call back in the Farrakons , Wrghts , and all those who sent all that money to get you elected, like maybe many non infidels .

That hate filled creep has a wife who thinks just like is idol Wright , only stupid self hating people are fooled by this group of radical racist ,imo.

Want to whine about slavery , start with your own slave owning race and your muslim friends who sold your ass to whitey in the first place . Those 'Africans ' who you hold so high did worse and still own slaves , chop their own people to pieces , rape and torture .

Want to complain about 'prejudice, stop acting like your still in Africa and grow up and care for your kids and stay out of criminal situations . [ For those blacks who act like men, this is not meant for them .] :confused:

He has a white mother, and was raised by her and her parents. His father - Kenyan - was irrelevant. So how does he become a racist? Or are you suggesting he's just pretending to be Black and is a secret member of KKK?


A white mother who left him . White grndparents who had a streak of racism according to Hussain Barack .

It is funny, you get back home and you read the usual xenophobic crap in the press and you read Obama's speech, and you start asking yourself if anyone is stupid enough to buy into the Muslim-fearing, race-bashing stupidity from the right that is so blatantly false and absurd as to make one think it is solely intended as either humor or as an insult to their own constituency's intelligence.... and then you find people who actually are that stupid.

It is funny, you get back home and you read the usual xenophobic crap in the press and you read Obama's speech, and you start asking yourself if anyone is stupid enough to buy into the Muslim-fearing, race-bashing stupidity from the right that is so blatantly false and absurd as to make one think it is solely intended as either humor or as an insult to their own constituency's intelligence.... and then you find people who actually are that stupid.

Yeah, like that Pappy dude who posted above you.

wow

I hate the idea that people that think like him are allowed to be driving in traffic. You wonder how someone gets that twisted up in weird assumptions, while still being intellectually capable of wiping his own ass. Then again, I'm assuming that he's capable of wiping his own ass. Maybe I'm the one making inaccurate assumptions here?

Obama's speech on 3/18 (with one exception) demonstrated genuine intellect, amazing talent for politics, and at least some progressive instincts.

It was exceedingly well written (probably written by Obama himself) and delivered, without any apparent reference to notes.

In terms of presence, the difference between Obama and the opposition (McCain, Hillary, etc.) is a chasm.

Most thoughtful Americans would conclude that this guy at least deserves a chance to prove he's the real deal (given that the alternative is just more mediocrity).

Whie my first choice for president is still Hillary,she and everyone else who can in any way,shape or form be called progressive should stand behind Barack Obama on this.

Only one word describes Sean Hannity and every other right-winger demamgoguing this :Scum.

So oh mighty one, what would you consider those who told lies about McCain and the so-called affair with a lobbist. On the side of Truth Telling (pun intended) or sliming scum?

From another Poll ....in 2002.

www.gallup.com/poll/105097/preceived-honesty-gap-clinton-versus-obama-mccain.aspx

poll taken on March 14-16 2008

Since Bush is not running for office I see little relevance in a poll taken in 2002.
But if 70% of the people who answered to the poll question in 2002 about Bush's honesty, who am I to argue with 70% of the people? Why would you unless you were on the outside looking in?

Obama's speech on 3/18 (with one exception) demonstrated genuine intellect, amazing talent for politics, and at least some progressive instincts.

It was exceedingly well written (probably written by Obama himself) and delivered, without any apparent reference to notes.

In terms of presence, the difference between Obama and the opposition (McCain, Hillary, etc.) is a chasm.

Most thoughtful Americans would conclude that this guy at least deserves a chance to prove he's the real deal (given that the alternative is just more mediocrity).According to SFGate, O wrote it himself. I had to know so I researched it.

Obama's speech on 3/18 (with one exception) demonstrated genuine intellect, amazing talent for politics, and at least some progressive instincts.

It was exceedingly well written (probably written by Obama himself) and delivered, without any apparent reference to notes.

In terms of presence, the difference between Obama and the opposition (McCain, Hillary, etc.) is a chasm.

Most thoughtful Americans would conclude that this guy at least deserves a chance to prove he's the real deal (given that the alternative is just more mediocrity).

:rofl:

First of all, he was obviously using a teleprompter (which is why his head swiveled left and right so much)

The rest of my reflections on his speech I'm posting over here... (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1645647&postcount=29)

So oh mighty one, what would you consider those who told lies about McCain and the so-called affair with a lobbist. On the side of Truth Telling (pun intended) or sliming scum?


This "question" insinuates that this is nothing but partisan political payback for Mc Cain.:scratch:

I don't see Mc Cain being persecuted.


Sean Hannity and scum like him are persecuting Barack Obama and while Barack's not my first choice for president,I don't like seeing him being persecuted especially by scum who would throw their children under a bus in order to elect any Republican.

Nor'Easter
Yeah, like that Pappy dude who posted above you.

wow

I hate the idea that people that think like him are allowed to be driving in traffic. You wonder how someone gets that twisted up in weird assumptions, while still being intellectually capable of wiping his own ass. Then again, I'm assuming that he's capable of wiping his own ass. Maybe I'm the one making inaccurate assumptions here?

Ummm, yeah. You are. As difficult as it may be to believe, Pappy's a she.

Yeah, I know, she tripped me up on that, too.

I rarely agree with her, but she's brutally honest, I'll give her that.

I don't see Mc Cain being persecuted.

That because of the public out cry of the NYT story. They cut their own thoat and the public held the knife.

Sean Hannity and scum like him are persecuting Barack Obama and while Barack's not my first choice for president,I don't like seeing him being persecuted especially by scum who would throw their children under a bus in order to elect any Republican.

'Presecuting Obama'? Sounds like they are reporting on a important story backed up with tapes by his pastor hate blasting America. Something the main stream media didn't do.
McCain wasn't persecuted because there wasn't any proof, just an attempt to slim, as you put it.

:rofl:

First of all, he was obviously using a teleprompter (which is why his head swiveled left and right so much)

The rest of my reflections on his speech I'm posting over here... (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1645647&postcount=29)

Barack Obama did indeed write his own speech.

Y'know it's funny...apparently he's not black enough for you, but yet he's too black for others. He responded in that speech by recounting his own personal life experience, stating his own views. What more could you ask of anyone, candidate or not, than for them to be true to themselves? I fail to see any covert deception in what he stated so plainly and honestly. This man has so much more tolerance than his critics, who can only see and view situations in strictly black and white ( no pun intended ) terms. Life is like a tapestry interwoven with the various shades of gray of the people's lives who comprise it. If we refuse to see or acknowledge, or exercise our own tolerance towards that fact, then we're sadly lacking as a society and will never be able to move forward together.

That because of the public out cry of the NYT story. They cut their own thoat and the public held the knife.



'Presecuting Obama'? Sounds like they are reporting on a important story backed up with tapes by his pastor hate blasting America. Something the main stream media didn't do.
McCain wasn't persecuted because there wasn't any proof, just an attempt to slim, as you put it.



Powerboss,I'll leave you to your mean-spirited delusions.:nonono:

Powerboss,I'll leave you to your mean-spirited delusions.:nonono:

Mean sprited delusions? What goes around, comes around......When it involves a republican you are all over it, but if it happens to a democrat, you're the worlds biggest apologist.

Mean sprited delusions? What goes around, comes around......When it involves a republican you are all over it, but if it happens to a democrat, you're the worlds biggest apologist.



You notice that he didn't deny being Powerboss.:eek:

:rofl:

First of all, he was obviously using a teleprompter (which is why his head swiveled left and right so much)

The rest of my reflections on his speech I'm posting over here... (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1645647&postcount=29)

His head wouldn't have been "swiveling" from one side of the room to the other if he were using a teleprompter -- unless the teleprompter were swinging from a rope.

CCC: why would the teleprompter be swinging from a rope?

I looked at your post re the speech. You really don't get it at all. Obama actually spoke about you quite a bit in that speech.

Ummm, yeah. You are. As difficult as it may be to believe, Pappy's a she.

Yeah, I know, she tripped me up on that, too.

I rarely agree with her, but she's brutally honest, I'll give her that.

Okay, then SHE'S an idiot.

Thanks for the clarification. Also, being "brutally" anything isn't anything I'll give anyone as a plus. Hell, I defy anyone to be more "brutal" than I can be. That doesn't make me any better than anyone else.

Brutal honesty is like full frontal nudity. On most people, it looks like shit.

:rofl:

First of all, he was obviously using a teleprompter (which is why his head swiveled left and right so much)

The rest of my reflections on his speech I'm posting over here... (http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1645647&postcount=29)

Your reflections on that speech seem like they were taken from a few other "reflections" I've read. Note for note in some cases. You folks must get emails with your talking points. Good luck with that bizarre Alan Keyes fetish you have, by the way. At least it's not kiddie porn.

A white mother who left him . White grndparents who had a streak of racism according to Hussain Barack .

She didn't "leave" him. He chose not to go with her to Indonesia. As far as his grandparents go, who doesn't have ones with a streak of racism? My point is that as a white/Black man which race is he a racist about? Or as Ganja would say: "Which part of his racial identity is he at odds with (hates)?"

Obama's speech on 3/18 (with one exception) demonstrated genuine intellect, amazing talent for politics, and at least some progressive instincts.

It was exceedingly well written (probably written by Obama himself) and delivered, without any apparent reference to notes.

In terms of presence, the difference between Obama and the opposition (McCain, Hillary, etc.) is a chasm.

Most thoughtful Americans would conclude that this guy at least deserves a chance to prove he's the real deal (given that the alternative is just more mediocrity).

The speech got my wife - who was very pro Hillary - to jump ship.

"he would be very much complicit in the government trying to disarm US citizens"


:eek7: based on what ?


And for Mrs Pappy to still cling to the absurd belief that Obama is a "closet Muslim" I ask again:

:eek7: based on what ?

The fact that Barack Hussein Obama sat there and listened, and continued for 20 years to listen, to this guy's rascist, anti-semitic, and anti-American spewage, demonstrates to me that Barak Hussein Obama lacks character.
Had that kind of racist crap been going on in my church I would've went straight out the door and never returned rather than have him baptize my children, etc.
At least we now know where Mrs. Barack Hussein Obama gets her anger from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antiquity to TT
Mean sprited delusions? What goes around, comes around......When it involves a republican you are all over it, but if it happens to a democrat, you're the worlds biggest apologist.

You notice that he didn't deny being Powerboss.:eek:

So you are the world's biggest democratic apologist....I don't see a denial.

Who is/was Powerboss, I haven't a clue what this means? Can't deny something/someone that I have no knowledge of and what you are talking about.

Of course I find this in a lot of things you say.

Sean Hannity and scum like him are persecuting Barack Obama and while Barack's not my first choice for president,I don't like seeing him being persecuted especially by scum who would throw their children under a bus in order to elect any Republican.

Obama is being "persecuted" in the same manner that Bush was persecuted for simply going to Bob Jones University, not even for having a long term relationship with the institution. Democrats and their fellow travelers in the MSM jumped all over him for that. Obama had better get used to it.

The fact that Barack Hussein Obama sat there and listened, and continued for 20 years to listen, to this guy's rascist, anti-semitic, and anti-American spewage, demonstrates to me that Barak Hussein Obama lacks character.
Had that kind of racist crap been going on in my church I would've went straight out the door and never returned rather than have him baptize my children, etc.
At least we now know where Mrs. Barack Hussein Obama gets her anger from.

This sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric of someone who wants to hate Obama because he's black but is too afraid to acknowledge their own racism. Obama has a friend who he doesn't fully agree with, why is that a big deal? I have friends whom I don't agree with in all areas. It amazes me how the commies in the GOP always feel the need to try to slander others. One wonders why, if you believe in anything at all, you can't stand up for what you believe in instead of having to slander at every opportunity. I'd ask if your policies are really that indefensible, but we already know the answer.

Obama is being "persecuted" in the same manner that Bush was persecuted for simply going to Bob Jones University, not even for having a long term relationship with the institution.


Except that Bush was going to an institution that after all these years still had racism in it's bylaws.

That is different than having friends and family you disagree with on some issues,yet you still love them as people in spite of their faults.


Democrats and their fellow travelers in the MSM jumped all over him for that. Obama had better get used to it.


This liberal controlled MSM is a myth.

The MSM didn't give George Mc Govern an even break,or Hillary,the only reason they took so long on Obama was because didn't take him seriously until now.





Obama has a friend who he doesn't fully agree with, why is that a big deal? I have friends whom I don't agree with in all areas.


Same here.


It amazes me how the commies in the GOP always feel the need to try to slander others. One wonders why, if you believe in anything at all, you can't stand up for what you believe in instead of having to slander at every opportunity. I'd ask if your policies are really that indefensible, but we already know the answer.


It's the only way the GOP can win elections.

They can't win elections by being civil or decent.

Except that Bush was going to an institution that after all these years still had racism in it's bylaws.

That is different than having friends and family you disagree with on some issues,yet you still love them as people in spite of their faults.

It is different from, but is not as significant as, accepting counsel from, respecting, openly supporting, and repeatedly listening to a racist preacher. Not in the same league at all.

It is different from, but is not as significant as, accepting counsel from, respecting, openly supporting, and repeatedly listening to a racist preacher. Not in the same league at all.


Once again ,the preacher is his friend.

I have had friends and family members I love who are racists,that does not make me a racist ,nor does it mean I endorse their racist attitudes.

You are grasping for straws here.

Why would a Muslim listen to and take counsel from a Christian preacher? You guys need to pick a lie and stick with it.

This sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric of someone who wants to hate Obama because he's black but is too afraid to acknowledge their own racism.

Typical. Play the race-card.
I dislike Barack Hussein Obama because he's a flaming leftist and is attempting to cover up his own 60's radicalism.

Obama has a friend who he doesn't fully agree with, why is that a big deal?

Is he just a friend? This man has been his pastor and spiritual advisor to him for 20 years. He's baptized his children. Wright is a full blown racist. I can assure you that I wouldn't have a racist as a friend, spiritual advisor, and person who baptizes my kids, feeding his racism, anti-semitism, and anti Americanism to them WOULD YOU?

I have friends whom I don't agree with in all areas.

Me too. I don't have friends that are full blown racists, do you?


It amazes me how the commies in the GOP always feel the need to try to slander others.

Actually, that statement is amazing. You make a statement like that but only 3 sentences previous to this you slander me as a racist when you have no idea what my views are on race, then in this sentence you slander me as a communist. Hypocrite.

One wonders why, if you believe in anything at all, you can't stand up for what you believe in instead of having to slander at every opportunity. I'd ask if your policies are really that indefensible, but we already know the answer.

ROFL. Your attempts to minimize this and attack me are pathetic and a sign of being desperate.

Okay, then SHE'S an idiot.

Thanks for the clarification. Also, being "brutally" anything isn't anything I'll give anyone as a plus. Hell, I defy anyone to be more "brutal" than I can be. That doesn't make me any better than anyone else.

Brutal honesty is like full frontal nudity. On most people, it looks like shit.

I never meant to suggest that it was "a plus", as you put it. But I do agree with your last point. :eek3:

Typical. Play the race-card.
I dislike Barack Hussein Obama because he's a flaming leftist and is attempting to cover up his own 60's radicalism.

Is he just a friend? This man has been his pastor and spiritual advisor to him for 20 years. He's baptized his children. Wright is a full blown racist. I can assure you that I wouldn't have a racist as a friend, spiritual advisor, and person who baptizes my kids, feeding his racism, anti-semitism, and anti Americanism to them WOULD YOU?

Once again, lots of ad hominem, no substance. What 60's radicalism are you afraid of, the end of apartheid practices in the south? You support a party built on racism and bigotry. The GOP wins the south because Johnson signed the civil rights act and they all have to drink from the same water fountain now.

Me too. I don't have friends that are full blown racists, do you?

I have family that are racist against Palestinians, so yes.

Actually, that statement is amazing. You make a statement like that but only 3 sentences previous to this you slander me as a racist when you have no idea what my views are on race, then in this sentence you slander me as a communist. Hypocrite.

The GOP's policies are identical to Soviet-style communism. That's not slander, that's simple observation. And it is cute that you talk about how relevant this pastor is when you are one of the lie-spinners trying to sell Obama as a Muslim. Pick a lie and stick with it, is he a ditto-head follower of a Christian leader or a Muslim?

ROFL. Your attempts to minimize this and attack me are pathetic and a sign of being desperate.

I don't think the opinions of the leader of a person's church necessarily reflect the feelings of the individual. Not every baptist believes that the WTC was attacked by God because of homosexuals. Do you believe that? I await the usual hyperbole, frothing at the mouth, and ignoring of the points.

i think obama is very much a socialist.

Name one candidate of the two parties who has run for office in the last 200 years that wasn't. The issue is who, and how many, benefits from it. A little trip in the Time Machine, back to those thrilling laissez faire glory days of yesteryear, when Men Were Men, and Women were left to fend for themselves:

Dime novels depicted western settlement as the results of ambitious efforts by innumerable individuals-family farmers and cantankerous cowboys-but pioneering the continent also demanded a far more organized mobilization of resources. Mining, lumbering, steelmaking, railroad building, cattle ranching, and 'bonanza' farming were enormously expensive, requiring investment capital on a colossal scale.

Government provided much of the funding (and of course, the requisite military muscle). No fears of socialism or debilitating dependency hindered entrepreneurs from seeking handouts. Washington and local states gave subsidies, credits, and over a hundred million acres of land to mining companies and railroads, free of charge. The legislative largesse was intended to foster economic development, consolidate the national territory, and, less high mindedly, to line the pockets of officeholders, as evidenced by the spectacular scandals of the Grant administration.

Gotham -Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace

Can anybody say, 'Bear Stearns'? NAFTA? Iraq? Socialism has been the SOP since 1791 in the U.S.; the issue is only how much of the profits are privatized, not whether any of the Establishment candidates are socialists or not; they all are.

Typical. Play the race-card.

Why not play it? OBama is playing it, criminal illegal aliens play it daily, Sharpton, Jackson, et al all make millions playing it. It's a legit debate and political point.

Why not play it? OBama is playing it, criminal illegal aliens play it daily, Sharpton, Jackson, et al all make millions playing it. It's a legit debate and political point.

Dude, your avatar is offensive. Seriously. I get the corporate/Nazi thing, but when you spew this race-baiting crap, that avatar stops being a protest against Corporate America and turns into a symbol of the kinds of Nazi-style carpet-bagger political tactics that you're engaging in here and it becomes something that's really repugnant. Either kill the racist shit, or get rid of the avatar.

I have family that are racist against Palestinians, so yes.

So I have a question, grimrebuke, what race/ethnicity exactly are you and your family (who are racist against the Palestinians)?:confused: Are you/they ethnically Jewish by any chance?:confused:

I have had friends and family members I love who are racists,that does not make me a racist ,nor does it mean I endorse their racist attitudes.

I can't think of any real racist person in my family, but there are a lot of them who have views about certain things that make me want to puke. I still love them, so I have to agree with you.

Why would a Muslim listen to and take counsel from a Christian preacher? You guys need to pick a lie and stick with it.

I agree 100%. Obama's haters don't give a shit about his religion or anything else about him, other than by using ANYTHING (true, half-true or not true at all) against him as much as they can, because that's the only way Republicans are able to win these days. They actually make Richard Nixon look like a very decent human being:).

Having said that, I also feel that the Democrats would be too brave and almost insane to nominate somebody with a muslim name (that is very similar to a few famous terrorists) and with so much dirt (like his ties with other fanatics such as his preacher). I'm not saying this because I think less of Obama for being named that way or for having family friends who are bigoted lunatics (I have maybe some problems with him on other issues, but NOT those). I'm saying this because the Republicans are known to be complete *******s and will use it all VERY WELL against him as soon as they feel that Hillary is no longer a threat. With Hillary, it would be harder for them to find dirt because they already attempted doing it since the early 1990's and if it didn't work then, it is not likely to work now.

I dislike Barack Hussein Obama because he's a flaming leftist and is attempting to cover up his own 60's radicalism.


So is he a radical muslim, a racist christian or a flaming leftist (as you claim now)?:confused: He obviously cannot be more than one of those, because that would contradict for obvious reasons:p. Unless you are trying to say that radical muslims and racist bible freaks can also be "flaming leftists" at the same time, but I'm not exactly sure how that would work out:).

Is he just a friend? This man has been his pastor and spiritual advisor to him for 20 years. He's baptized his children. Wright is a full blown racist. I can assure you that I wouldn't have a racist as a friend, spiritual advisor, and person who baptizes my kids, feeding his racism, anti-semitism, and anti Americanism to them WOULD YOU?


I have not seen any evidence yet that that person is anti-semitic.

I do have friends who hold views that would be considered as "anti-American" and racist. I disagree with them and think they are idiots for feeling that way, but I'm not going to start hating somebody just because we disagree on some issues. As a Black man, of course Obama may be friends with some people who are pissed off at America and at many White people. And some of them may express their views very wrong too. It's obvious that not all African-Americans forgave all the racism they suffered. It's not as easy as it seems:rolleyes:.

Me too. I don't have friends that are full blown racists, do you?

Define "full blown racist". According to David Duke (and even most KKK members) they are not "racist" either, they are just "pro-White":p.

If you live in America, saying that you don't have friends with racist views suggests either that you are very naive.

So I have a question, grimrebuke, what race/ethnicity exactly are you and your family (who are racist against the Palestinians)?:confused: Are you/they ethnically Jewish by any chance?:confused:

I am an American mutt. Part of my family through my mother's side is Jewish.

Whie my first choice for president is still Hillary,she and everyone else who can in any way,shape or form be called progressive should stand behind Barack Obama on this.

Only one word describes Sean Hannity and every other right-winger demamgoguing this :Scum.

Hey TT,

I'm surprised you're behind Hillary and I'd be interested in hearing why.
She has such a trail of shady dealings, her hunger for power is transparent and too all-consuming to prevent her from betraying the American people in order to obtain and keep it. Do some research on her past, even before Clinton's presidency...

Of the two candidates, she is by far the one with the least integrity. This is readily apparent in the appeals to fear she has used in her campaign, and the aggressive smear tactics she has used against Obama, while he took the high road for the longest time.
She has also on SEVERAL occasions and with the same wording each time, stated her preference for McCain even, over Obama, in the bogus fear -mongering question of the 3am emergency phone call. Do you really want a slippery, vindictive woman of that sort at the head of this country?

Bill Clinton said it himself in one of his own campaign speeches: the people should be voting for the candidate that successfully talks to the drive for hope and unity in ourselves, NOT the FEAR.

Hillary has fallen into the despicable tradition of Bush in appealing to America's fear to try to belittle her opponent, whereas Obama has overwhelmingly expressed respect for his opponents, and campaigned on the strength of his own message and character.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand your support for her.

M.

Why not play it? OBama is playing it, criminal illegal aliens play it daily, Sharpton, Jackson, et al all make millions playing it. It's a legit debate and political point.

Actually, it would be fair to say that Obama is playing the race card as little as he possibly can given his situation as the first person with visible African heritage with a chance for the presidency.

As such, people are playing the race card AROUND him, for him AND against him. He himself HAS NOT been initiating much discussion about his race.

M.

Once again, lots of ad hominem, no substance.

Just following your lead.


What 60's radicalism are you afraid of,

When did I state I was afraid of his 60's radicalism?

the end of apartheid practices in the south?

Race Baiter.

You support a party built on racism and bigotry. The GOP wins the south because Johnson signed the civil rights act and they all have to drink from the same water fountain now.

I wasn't aware that I suppot a party built on racism and bigotry. The Republican party was built on ending slavery. If you read your history it was the Democrat party that thrived on racism and bigotry.


I have family that are racist against Palestinians, so yes.

Now where we know your bigotry comes from. Please stop projecting it onto others.
You come from a family of bigots, hence it's no surprise you are a bigot yourself.
The question was though; do you have friends that are racists and anti Semites? Obviously you have family which you have to deal with and have no choice as they are family. What about friends and aquaintences? Do you actively persue friendships with full blown racists?


The GOP's policies are identical to Soviet-style communism. That's not slander, that's simple observation.

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read online.

And it is cute that you talk about how relevant this pastor is when you are one of the lie-spinners trying to sell Obama as a Muslim. Pick a lie and stick with it, is he a ditto-head follower of a Christian leader or a Muslim?

When did I try to sell Barack Hussein Obama as a muslim?
Put up or shut up time; What lie am I attempting to sell? Please cite it.

So Grim, for the second tme, would you have a full blown racist and jew hater as your friend, mentor, spiritual advisor, pastor, person who baptizes your children and have that person teaching them hatred?


I don't think the opinions of the leader of a person's church necessarily reflect the feelings of the individual.

This is true. That isn't the issue. The point, and maybe it's a little complicated for you, is that normal people wouldn't go to a church that spews hatred and venom in such a manner.

Not every baptist believes that the WTC was attacked by God because of homosexuals. Do you believe that?

Pure nonsense.

I await the usual hyperbole,

Just following your lead.

frothing at the mouth,

No, that's Chicken Avenger.

and ignoring of the points.

Actually, it's you who are dodging here Grim. I've addressed every one of your point's, most of which are largely lowbrow or race baiting.

The preacher who married my wife and I is a friend of mine, we did lots of business together for a number of years, and he happens to black. I'm white.

Politically, we're polar opposites. He's a dyed in the wool liberal Democrat, and
I'm a conservative.


Now, he doesn't preach hate; far from it, but the point is, regardless of our differences, we're good friends, and frankly, we don't talk politics. It's pointless, because we disagree on almost every issue. OTOH, we're still great friends, and always will be. Neither of us judge people based on their race.

He grew up in Mississippi in the 30's and 40's before he moved north to MD., and Mississippi exactly wasn't a great place for a black man to live or grow up in. But he lived, and did rather well for himself; despite any discrimination he suffered; which was real, and almost constant for many years. But, he also loves and prays fro his "enemies", even the ones who treated him like a sub human based on his skin shade.

He's a true Christian; not a fake (of which there are, and always will be many), who may claim to follow the teachings of Jesus, yet live an altogether different type of life.

He admittedly carries some bitterness from the discrimination he suffered under Jim Crow, but doesn't blame those who had nothing to do with it. He's not prejudiced in that way. He holds the individuals who made his life difficult responsible; not the entire white race, or America (which is more of idea than a place, or a government, or different groups of people).

He also FORGIVES them, for many truly knew not what they were doing. many of those people were parroting what their parents and peers instilled in them from a very early age.

This Wright character is another story. He too has a pulpit to preach from, as does my friend, but he uses it to preach racism, prejudice, anti Americanism and hate on occasion. IMO, that's a character flaw and it applies to him as an individual. Only he can let it go. No one can make him, no matter how badly or how frequently he may be denounced.

Does Obama believe what this says? He claims he doesn't. We'll never really know. I hope he doesn't; for the sake of the country, because he may be our next President.

I don't support Obama, or Hillary, or any other leftists seeking office, and not because of their skin shade or sex.That has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

AS for Hillary, the " fear of a powerful woman" argument is just stupid (and old, and lame; to name just a few) as far as I'm concerned.

Margaret Thatcher was a very powerful woman. When she was in office, she didn't take any shit from her enemies; foreign or domestic. She didn't hesitate to take back the Falklands, nor did she hesitate to support deploying Pershing II missiles in Europe and target the Soviets. She did what she felt was prudent at the time, in spite of the protests of many of her fellow countrymen and women.

IMO, this race issue is a dead horse. Obama made a great speech on the subject, but excused his pastors' MOTIVES for spewing forth what Obama claims to disagree with. That's the real problem I had with the speech. I don't believe that his excuses give him the right to bash an entire race or country, but because he's black, he gets a pass from many people, because there are many who actually believe that black racism is okay. I disagree. Racism,is racism, regardless of the skin shade, or heritage of the messenger.

Obama could have done a better job in handling this issue IMO, but he took the road that he believes benefits him the most, and doesn't upset any particular group to any great degree. Time will tell if this approach was the right one. this issue could truly make or break him.

The speech was moving, extremely well delivered, and touched on many great and valid points. It even addressed the grievances of whites, Latinos, and any number of any different groups, but it didn't make bigots become non bigots overnight. There may be a few, but not enough to turn an election.

That's the real problem I had with the speech. I don't believe that his excuses give him the right to bash an entire race or country, but because he's black, he gets a pass from many people, because there are many who actually believe that black racism is okay. I disagree. Racism,is racism, regardless of the skin shade, or heritage of the messenger.

Obama could have done a better job in handling this issue IMO, but he took the road that he believes benefits him the most, and doesn't upset any particular group to any great degree. Time will tell if this approach was the right one. this issue could truly make or break him.


Bertrade, I am impressed with this post of your's and it clashes slightly with the memory I have of you. I'm always happy to update my opinions of people - we're all evolving and changing. Maybe I have never read a post with such personal honesty and openness from you as this one. Perhaps Obama's honesty is contagious? :)
Jokes aside, that would be the true power of this speech: if it inspired more open and candid dialog on these issues, between people of sometimes opposing political stances.

I disagree with you on the quoted section however. His speech very clearly spelled out in the most eloquent way that the grievances felt by both black and white communities are LEGITIMATE. Racism is not legitimate on either side, and he is VERY clear about this. But the frustrations felt ARE. Surely you did not fail to pick this message up from his speech? Listen to it again.

As in him taking the road which benefits him the most, I might add that with his mixture of heritages, the road which benefits him the most is the road that benefits our multicultural society the most.
This is part of the power of his racial experience: he has lived his entire life reconciling his various heritages so that he truly does not identify himself solely as one thing or the other, and he has not campaigned as one thing or the other, but rather as a candidate that embraces the diverse heritage of our nation.

You say you disagree wtih his speech because the pastor's excuses did not give the pastor the right to bash an entire race or country? Obama made exactly that point, and quite explicitly.
His effort to explain where those comments came from did not mean he was excusing the comments, rather he wanted people to be able to see where he and others were coming from when they refuse, very honorably, to completely disown a person merely based on a part of their views.
The beginning of your post says you understand this, so I don't get how by the end of your post, you can raise this objection.

M.

I am an American mutt. Part of my family through my mother's side is Jewish.

So you are part Jewish and you have some Jewish relatives who hate the Palestinians?:confused:

Well, first of all, just so you know, they are not "racist" technically, since they are from the same race as the Palestinians, unless they are converted Jews, in which case they may be "racist". Otherwise, assuming they hate all Palestinians because of their ethnicity, they are bigots, but not racists. However, from some reason, I seem to doubt that they are actually racist/bigots, but rather dislike those who are involved with terrorism and violence against the Jews, regardless of who they are, but not specifically because they are of such and such ethnic groups. I know VERY FEW Jewish people who are this way, so it would be quite surprising.

However, I was wondering, is your opposition to Israel and Zionism is rooted in this kind of rebelious thing against some old relatives of yours, kind of like some kids turn against religion because members of their family are religious freaks?:confused:

Bertrade, I am impressed with this post of your's and it clashes slightly with the memory I have of you. I'm always happy to update my opinions of people - we're all evolving and changing.
...
You say you disagree wtih his speech because the pastor's excuses did not give the pastor the right to bash an entire race or country? Obama made exactly that point, and quite explicitly.
His effort to explain where those comments came from did not mean he was excusing the comments, rather he wanted people to be able to see where he and others were coming from when they refuse, very honorably, to completely disown a person merely based on a part of their views.
The beginning of your post says you understand this, so I don't get how by the end of your post, you can raise this objection.

M.

I agree, Betrade's was one of the best posts on this thread. I understand his point, too: BT's minister friend was more focused on why he suffered discrimination, than Obama's minister. Wright's quotes imply (by his own design or others?) he could not distinguish between a white a****** and a decent person who happens to be white. On the other hand, BT's friend obviously has this capacity and willingness to distinguish.
Unfortunately, one cannot always find such a discerning religious leader. Obama was unfortunately in this category, I understand.

What did this dude say that was so bad? Look at the filth this country has bred like Toejam, and how violent and stupid the nation is.

Of course this is the first of a long line of smears they GOP will bring out against Obama..

double post

What did this dude say that was so bad? Look at the filth this country has bred like Toejam, and how violent and stupid the nation is.

Of course this is the first of a long line of smears they GOP will bring out against Obama..



What the guy said that was bad is the most obvious part of this whole debate. Things like the "US of KKKA" and G-d Damn America" are blatantly divisive comments, and are delivered to stir up the crowd, strike a nerve, and get a reaction.

To make the claim to be a Christian, yet curse your neighbor is hypocricy. Those aren't my words. They're the teachings of Jesus, the one on whom this religion/belief system is based. Many people want to have everything both ways, but it's usually not possible.

To be a Christian, above all else, one is to love God with all their heart, soul, mind and body, as well as doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, EVEN if you have been wronged. That's the challenge, and it's not easy. Christianity is not an easy way to follow when the going gets tough.

If the reverend can't even see the splinter in his brothers' eye because of the plank in his own, he may never realize what is wrong with his statements, regardless of any justification of his bitterness.

I have no doubt that he's suffered discrimination in one form or another, as have many others, but not all others are out there cursing the country, Jews, whites etc.


Your sweeping generalities, such as "how violent and stupid the nation is", are part of the problem; not the solution. I hear words like "everyone" in conversation, when people are actually referring to a handful of people.

Violent and stupid people are a huge minority in the US. Of course they exist, and many of those become that way as a result of pure ignorance Others choose it.

Many born into privilege have turned bad, and many raised in the best of circumstances, have been taught right from wrong and know that their actions harm others just don't care, but they're the minority.

Pointing the finger and being perpetually bitter go a long way to alienate, divide, and even ruin a persons' outlook on life, but putting things in their proper perspective before immediately jumping into a knee jerk reaction is probably a more prudent and pragmatic way to deal with almost any issue.

I'm convinced that for every act of violence, racism and other negative aspects of living in the US, there are a thousand acts of decency, generosity and reason.

I don't know if my math is right, but I have spent years talking to people one on one about many things, and one thing I have learned is that we Americans aren't nearly as divided as those who WANT us divided would have us believe. Black , white, Latinos, Christians, Muslims, Jews, agnostics, liberals, moderates and conservatives have a more in common than than the conventional "wisdom" claims we do not .

We all want a country that's safe, that we can trust our kids will have a chance at a decent life. We want decent education, low taxation, low government intrusion, the ability to save for the future and leave something behind. We want relative security in our person and property, as well as our finances.

Americans collectively give away more money, time and resources than any country on Earth, and it amazes me how many people can't see what's so obvious.

It's easy to point fingers at "corporations" who have helped give us a very decent standard of living. Behind the paper entities that are corporations there are people of all backgrounds, beliefs, shapes, sizes and colors. Some are good, and some are bad. That's human nature, but the good almost always outweigh and outperform the bad.

So you are part Jewish and you have some Jewish relatives who hate the Palestinians?:confused:

Well, first of all, just so you know, they are not "racist" technically, since they are from the same race as the Palestinians, unless they are converted Jews, in which case they may be "racist". Otherwise, assuming they hate all Palestinians because of their ethnicity, they are bigots, but not racists. However, from some reason, I seem to doubt that they are actually racist/bigots, but rather dislike those who are involved with terrorism and violence against the Jews, regardless of who they are, but not specifically because they are of such and such ethnic groups. I know VERY FEW Jewish people who are this way, so it would be quite surprising.

However, I was wondering, is your opposition to Israel and Zionism is rooted in this kind of rebelious thing against some old relatives of yours, kind of like some kids turn against religion because members of their family are religious freaks?:confused:

I don't oppose Israel. I oppose murder and torture, I oppose oppression in all its forms, and I oppose bigotry. Racism is usually hidden to the practitioner. People will look at an hispanic, assume they are an illegal alien, attach a bunch of negative emotion to the person, and then claim they aren't racist, they are just pro-law. Israeli-sympathizers accept the worst kinds of abuses of fellow humans solely on the basis that the others are Arab. They see an Arab and they immediately see a terrorist. They accept treatment of Arabs they would never accept for their own family and then write it off as hatred of terrorism because the Arab happens to be from the same race or religion as other people who have been terrorists. It makes perfect sense in the mind of the racist, they don't even see it as racism.

When did I state I was afraid of his 60's radicalism?

Your frantic frothing at the mouth about him being a 60's radical has to either be fear or oxycontin withdrawal.

Race Baiter.

Namecalling again.

I wasn't aware that I suppot a party built on racism and bigotry. The Republican party was built on ending slavery. If you read your history it was the Democrat party that thrived on racism and bigotry.

Those Republicans are now Democrats. Of course you are aware, you're a spin-doctor.

Now where we know your bigotry comes from. Please stop projecting it onto others.
You come from a family of bigots, hence it's no surprise you are a bigot yourself.
The question was though; do you have friends that are racists and anti Semites? Obviously you have family which you have to deal with and have no choice as they are family. What about friends and aquaintences? Do you actively persue friendships with full blown racists?

Did you actively pursue the church you belong to? And of course you are a bigot, only bigots use the word anti-semite. Everyone else knows it is meaningless. It is the modern racist's n*****-Lover for Arabs.

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read online.

It is demonstrably accurate, from troops in the streets to directing national wealth through oligarchy's to the belief that the Party must be protected at all costs and that the State must be protected from the people.

When did I try to sell Barack Hussein Obama as a muslim?
Put up or shut up time; What lie am I attempting to sell? Please cite it.

Are you this much of a child that you don't think people understand spin? Why are you and your ilk the only ones stressing over his middle name? You are so racist, that you assume that others will cringe at the name Hussein because you are counting on them being as racist as you.

So Grim, for the second tme, would you have a full blown racist and jew hater as your friend, mentor, spiritual advisor, pastor, person who baptizes your children and have that person teaching them hatred?

Are you saying that one homily from a preacher is sufficient to label them a Jew Hater and racist?

This is true. That isn't the issue. The point, and maybe it's a little complicated for you, is that normal people wouldn't go to a church that spews hatred and venom in such a manner.

Are you saying there are no normal people in Pat Robertson's following, or Jimmy Jones'?

don't oppose Israel. I oppose murder and torture, I oppose oppression in all its forms, and I oppose bigotry.

I agree 100%:).

Racism is usually hidden to the practitioner. People will look at an hispanic, assume they are an illegal alien, attach a bunch of negative emotion to the person, and then claim they aren't racist, they are just pro-law.

Many anti-immigration people are racist agains hispanic people, but some people just oppose illegal immigration on principle.

Israeli-sympathizers accept the worst kinds of abuses of fellow humans

Are you sure that people who get those "abuses" are actually "fellow humans", like members of Hamas and people who are involved with Hamas? You know what, I'm not so sure:rolleyes:.

solely on the basis that the others are Arab.

I don't. Them being Arabs or anything else is not relevant to me at all. Iranians are genetically "White people" and not Arabs, and yet I have more problems with Iran than with the average Arab country. I care about BEHAVIOR and CHARACTER, not ethnicity or race.

They see an Arab and they immediately see a terrorist.

That's really bad, BUT...many Arabs ARE terrorists and terrorist supporters, unfortunately, so that kind of bigotery does have some excuses, kind of like Malcolm X's racism against Whites.

It is also true that many hispanic people in America are illegal immigrants, however, illegal immigrants don't bother me nearly as much as terrorists do.

They accept treatment of Arabs they would never accept for their own family and then write it off as hatred of terrorism because the Arab happens to be from the same race or religion as other people who have been terrorists.

Just like myself, most Zionists would never support treating people (not involved with terrorism and anti-Israel activities) bad, regardless if they are Arabs or not. Israeli Arabs who fight and die for Israel get the same respect as anybody else. Don't confuse hating ALL Arabs with hating ALL terrorists (including those who happen to be Arabs).

It makes perfect sense in the mind of the racist, they don't even see it as racism.

Most supporters of Israel don't see it this way. Most Israelis are just trying to live in peace and they don't hate anybody for their race.

The first sign of racism is the justification of it and the rationalization of it. When you accept two different sets of rules of behavior, one for one group and a second one for another, you've abandoned your morality and humanity. You keep doing the things that make you better than your enemies or you become what you accuse your enemies of being. It is that simple.

I agree 100%:).

[quote]Are you sure that people who get those "abuses" are actually "fellow humans", like members of Hamas and people who are involved with Hamas?
You mean Begin and Sharon were not human?:)


...many Arabs ARE terrorists and terrorist supporters,

So in the early 1930-40's many Jews were terrosrists and terrorist supporters?:)

I can't think of any real racist person in my family, but there are a lot of them who have views about certain things that make me want to puke. I still love them, so I have to agree with you.


Well,the word "racist" must be clairified.

None are Klan members or anything like that,but they were brought up in a era and locale where bigotry and slurs against African-Americans were common and they can't shake how they were raised [which I think is one of the things Obama was talking about the other day].



that's the only way Republicans are able to win these days. They actually make Richard Nixon look like a very decent human being:).


That's very true,sad to say.



I do have friends who hold views that would be considered as "anti-American" and racist. I disagree with them and think they are idiots for feeling that way, but I'm not going to start hating somebody just because we disagree on some issues.

Same here.

Now,if they espoused David Duke type rhetoric that would be different,but I can understand them having a hard time shaking how they were raised.

I've always been agaisnt racism,sexism and homophobia intellectually ,but I have had racism,sexism and homophobia inside of me emotionally because society put it in me.

I have worked on it and have been successfull at that,but it is work.



Hey TT,

I'm surprised you're behind Hillary and I'd be interested in hearing why.
She has such a trail of shady dealings, her hunger for power is transparent and too all-consuming to prevent her from betraying the American people in order to obtain and keep it. Do some research on her past, even before Clinton's presidency...


You are buying into the propaganda that the right-wing puts out.:nonono:

Hillary's voting record has gotten high grades from the ACLU,Americans For Democratic Action,Planned Parenthood,NOW and every progresive group that I know of gives her high marks.

She [unlike most Democrats] opposed the nominations of Alito and Roberts to the Supreme Court,she opposes tax breaks for oil companies and is in favor of unversial health care [unike Obama ,whose plan does not cover everybody],embyonic stem cell research and full reproductive rights for women.

And that's just for starters[she also wins the big states a Democrat needs to win a election,she has more experience and is more electable].

I suggest you see her full record and not the "hungry for power hype" that people I don't respect put out.


Of the two candidates, she is by far the one with the least integrity.


I disagree.


This is readily apparent in the appeals to fear she has used in her campaign, and the aggressive smear tactics she has used against Obama, while he took the high road for the longest time.


That is a lie.

First off,Obama's realtionship with slumlord Tony Rezko is a major issue and we don't know where that is going to lead to by Election Day,whereas the right has nothing against Hillary that has cost her elections.

And that stuff about "Obama taking the high road" is also a lie,he brought up stuff like the Rose Law Firm that was discredited when Rush Limbaugh and other US right-wingers brought that up years ago.

And if you think Obama isn't "hungry for power:" then you are naive.



She has also on SEVERAL occasions and with the same wording each time, stated her preference for McCain even, over Obama, in the bogus fear -mongering question of the 3am emergency phone call. Do you really want a slippery, vindictive woman of that sort at the head of this country?


Politics is a contact sport,if you don't know that then you shouldn't be in it.

You are buying into the propaganda that the right-wing puts out.:nonono:

Hillary's voting record has gotten high grades from the ACLU,Americans For Democratic Action,Planned Parenthood,NOW and every progresive group that I know of gives her high marks.

She [unlike most Democrats] opposed the nominations of Alito and Roberts to the Supreme Court,she opposes tax breaks for oil companies and is in favor of unversial health care [unike Obama ,whose plan does not cover everybody],embyonic stem cell research and full reproductive rights for women.

And that's just for starters[she also wins the big states a Democrat needs to win a election,she has more experience and is more electable].

I suggest you see her full record and not the "hungry for power hype" that people I don't respect put out.


I'm not basing my opinion on hype, TT. And I thought you would understand by now, if you understood anything at all about me, that I am not very susceptible to hype in general - right wing hype in particular.

The latest projection I saw had Obama doing better against McCain than Hilary would, state by state.

Hillary may look good on paper when she declares herself in favor of all those things, but those of us who are not naive know there is nothing holding her to those promises but her own word. So the question is, does she display characteristics of someone likely to keep her word even if it jeopardizes her power? The conflict of interest between major industry and the American people is a hard line to walk, and noone has yet had the integrity to champion the interests of the American people in this dichotomy. Does Hillary appear to be the person who might break this mould?
I think not.

Her character is identical to the mould of politicians who have made it this far in the political game: unbridled ambition and greed.

Obama displays these characteristics to a FAR lesser degree, and as an academic, did not take the traditional demagogue's route to power. While the Clintons were involving herself in shady real estate dealings and futures trading to 'supplement' their couple's already huge income, Obama, in his equivalent phase of life, was a university lecturer and community organizer. These are hard facts which, if you are able to be objective, you will recognize.

Its easy to talk the talk, but our actions speak louder than words, and Obama's actions until now speak louder in favor of his being the less greedy and power hungry of the two candidates, by light years.


That is a lie.

First off,Obama's realtionship with slumlord Tony Rezko is a major issue and we don't know where that is going to lead to by Election Day,whereas the right has nothing against Hillary that has cost her elections.

And that stuff about "Obama taking the high road" is also a lie,he brought up stuff like the Rose Law Firm that was discredited when Rush Limbaugh and other US right-wingers brought that up years ago.


How am I lying when I say Hillary has used fear tactics?
Do you not consider raising the specter of a 3am National Crisis, in the wake of the terror years of G W Bush, as appealing to fear JUST THE WAY BUSH HAS FOR THE PAST 7 YEARS?
She is no more qualified to take that call than Obama is: she has never taken such a call. She is engaging in lightweight conjecture and speculation that strums the chords of fear in the American people.
So I'm lying when I point that out? You, sir, are making it plain that you are far from objective on this matter.

As for Obama taking the high road, this is the last test of your objectivity... are you able to recognize that compared to the Clintons, Obama has done, by far, less mud-slinging? Are you able to recognize that the Clintons initiated the mud-slinging. If you are lucid enough to remain true to these facts, then we can have meaningful conversation.



And if you think Obama isn't "hungry for power:" then you are naive.


How unsubtle of you to ignore the gradations when it helps you maintain your delusion. There are degrees of hunger for power. Every human being on earth strives for power to a degree. The question is - to drag you back to the pertinent topic - which candidate has a balance of personal ambition and integrity that will most likely lead his conscience to act FIRST in the interests of the nation, and SECOND in the interests of gaining and maintaining power.


Politics is a contact sport,if you don't know that then you shouldn't be in it.

I laughed quite hard here: are you suggesting Obama doesn't know politics can be a contact sport? He grew up in the same America you did, TT. You really think he doesn't know what goes on? I think h e knows more about politics than you do, don't you? Given his political career, and the small detail that he may be on his way to being our next President in less than a year... I'd say chances are he knows more about the nature of the political game than you do unless you are hiding some of your credentials.

You are deliberately hiding from the crucial point, which is that in any fight, there is a high road, and low one. When that fight is not for your personal survival, but for power, as in the case of running for the Presidency of the USA - how easily one stoops to take the low road is a direct revealer of one's greed and overriding ambition, and it is a warning light for what that person is prepared to do in order to maintain that power once it is won.
It is this dynamic that has virtually guaranteed us corrupt leadership over the past decades. The only way for us to break this cycle is to elect someone who displays restraint in the race - that shows that he is willing to offer his platform and vision for the country, but not at the expense of his own integrity. If we reward that, we know we then have a President who prizes integrity enough to lead our country in a way that honors our highest principles.

Obama has not succeeded in taking the high road all the way, but he has done a better job at it than ANY candidate in living memory.

M.

Nice post.


What the guy said that was bad is the most obvious part of this whole debate. Things like the "US of KKKA" and G-d Damn America" are blatantly divisive comments, and are delivered to stir up the crowd, strike a nerve, and get a reaction. .

That bothered me a lot too. And here is where I finally lost any positive thoughts of Obama's judgement, any respect I had for Obama. You can't convince me that even if he didn't personally hear it he was not aware. As a white woman I can not claim any experience with discrimination but to continue to regard Wright as a close personal friend makes me truly suspect.

To make the claim to be a Christian, yet curse your neighbor is hypocricy. Those aren't my words. They're the teachings of Jesus, the one on whom this religion/belief system is based. Many people want to have everything both ways, but it's usually not possible.

To be a Christian, above all else, one is to love God with all their heart, soul, mind and body, as well as doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, EVEN if you have been wronged. That's the challenge, and it's not easy. Christianity is not an easy way to follow when the going gets tough.

If the reverend can't even see the splinter in his brothers' eye because of the plank in his own, he may never realize what is wrong with his statements, regardless of any justification of his bitterness.

I have no doubt that he's suffered discrimination in one form or another, as have many others, but not all others are out there cursing the country, Jews, whites etc..

When we hear Obama's wife say "For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country." and couple that with Wright's rants it might be fair to draw the conclusion that Wright's preachings may have more influence on Obama than is desired.

Your sweeping generalities, such as "how violent and stupid the nation is", are part of the problem; not the solution. I hear words like "everyone" in conversation, when people are actually referring to a handful of people.

Violent and stupid people are a huge minority in the US. Of course they exist, and many of those become that way as a result of pure ignorance Others choose it.

Many born into privilege have turned bad, and many raised in the best of circumstances, have been taught right from wrong and know that their actions harm others just don't care, but they're the minority.

Pointing the finger and being perpetually bitter go a long way to alienate, divide, and even ruin a persons' outlook on life, but putting things in their proper perspective before immediately jumping into a knee jerk reaction is probably a more prudent and pragmatic way to deal with almost any issue.

I'm convinced that for every act of violence, racism and other negative aspects of living in the US, there are a thousand acts of decency, generosity and reason.

I don't know if my math is right, but I have spent years talking to people one on one about many things, and one thing I have learned is that we Americans aren't nearly as divided as those who WANT us divided would have us believe. Black , white, Latinos, Christians, Muslims, Jews, agnostics, liberals, moderates and conservatives have a more in common than than the conventional "wisdom" claims we do not ...

Some times I wonder if the vitriolic postings on this website aren't merely ego-stroking posturing. Maybe I am naive or sheltered but I agree with your thoughts.

We all want a country that's safe, that we can trust our kids will have a chance at a decent life. We want decent education, low taxation, low government intrusion, the ability to save for the future and leave something behind. We want relative security in our person and property, as well as our finances.

Americans collectively give away more money, time and resources than any country on Earth, and it amazes me how many people can't see what's so obvious.

It's easy to point fingers at "corporations" who have helped give us a very decent standard of living. Behind the paper entities that are corporations there are people of all backgrounds, beliefs, shapes, sizes and colors. Some are good, and some are bad. That's human nature, but the good almost always outweigh and outperform the bad.


Corporations are not the bad guys. Although here I will inject a rant ( maybe off topic )of my own. When a sports figure or CEO or whomever is paid totally outrageous amounts I see red.

That bothered me a lot too. And here is where I finally lost any positive thoughts of Obama's judgement, any respect I had for Obama. You can't convince me that even if he didn't personally hear it he was not aware. As a white woman I can not claim any experience with discrimination but to continue to regard Wright as a close personal friend makes me truly suspect.


Not really. It seems people aren't able to actually hear what Obama explained in his speech. He admits there were many aspects of the man he was aware of and disagreed with, but his history with the man goes back far enough that he sees him not the way you see him, but as a human being with flaws and qualities, and someone who, for better or for worse, is connected to him.

Someone in this thread pointed out that the Church he is part of is 90 percent white... if that is true, the reverend could not have been spewing this sort of comment willy nilly. But the real issue is that he may very well have been vaguely aware of the reverends penchant to giving vent to unsavory sentiments. What exactly, it is impossible for us to know at this stage. It doesn't mean he shares them. PERIOD.

Its not hard to understand, yet you somehow still take this as an excuse to lose ALL respect for Obama. That's rather interesting, and it makes me question how much respect you had for him in the first place.


When we hear Obama's wife say "For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country." and couple that with Wright's rants it might be fair to draw the conclusion that Wright's preachings may have more influence on Obama than is desired.


Well you and I have discussed black America before Simone, and this merely reminds me of our former conversations because you still exhibit a lack of understanding about the black community. There is no need for Wright's preachings for Obama's wife to feel this way. The origins of this sentiment do not come from a black preacher, but from the black experience in America. It isn't some fanciful cult point-of-view but a natural effect of slavery, segregation, and present day racial tensions which simmer at the threshold of white America's radar.

What would be more becoming of you would be to admire the woman's honesty, a trait she seems to share with her husband. Her husband is running for president, and yet she is able to tell it like it is: that this is the first time she is REALLY proud of her country.
Do you have a problem with this being the first time she is REALLY proud of her country? If you do, what precisely is the nature of that problem? I'd like you to spell out why feel that is an inappropriate way to feel for a black woman. Are members of oppressed sectors of society meant to feel REALLY proud of their country before their country REALLY starts to show the end of hundreds of years of racism is finally, perhaps showing up? The success of her husband's candidacy so far, and the way his speech was received shows the nation has matured in terms of race-relations... and YES, many black Americans need that to REALLY happen before they can be REALLY proud of America. I am one of them.
That doesn't mean I'm racist, it doesn't mean I endorse the sentiments of Reverend Wright, and frankly, your attempt to amalgamate the two into some sort of excuse for distrusting Obama is very sad.
If your approach turns out to be widespread, it would seem that the fruits of Obama's honesty, and of his wife's honesty, will ironically have been distrust! I have long wondered if the American people could handle an honest politician. We're so used to being utterly deceived. We are so used to politicians being skilled actors who apply make-up to every area they feel might harm them - should I be so surprised that you and potentially others don't know how to respect a candidate who tells it like it is? It has been trained out of you!



Corporations are not the bad guys. Although here I will inject a rant ( maybe off topic )of my own. When a sports figure or CEO or whomever is paid totally outrageous amounts I see red.

This is entirely another topic, but corporations as they currently exist are inherently damaging to the social and environmental fabric of our planet. If you want to argue this one, maybe we can do so in another thread.

M

Barack Obama did indeed write his own speech.

Y'know it's funny...apparently he's not black enough for you, but yet he's too black for others. He responded in that speech by recounting his own personal life experience, stating his own views. What more could you ask of anyone, candidate or not, than for them to be true to themselves? I fail to see any covert deception in what he stated so plainly and honestly. This man has so much more tolerance than his critics, who can only see and view situations in strictly black and white ( no pun intended ) terms. Life is like a tapestry interwoven with the various shades of gray of the people's lives who comprise it. If we refuse to see or acknowledge, or exercise our own tolerance towards that fact, then we're sadly lacking as a society and will never be able to move forward together.



Not black enough ? He's reversable ,if it suits him to be black, he's black, if not he can be white . He has a white mother [who seems to have abandoned him ] .

I don't care what color he is, imo, he is a traitor and a racist . Just as dangerous as his 'uncle 'Mr. Wright who is wrong and full of hate for his nation and it's white citizens .

Okay, then SHE'S an idiot.

Thanks for the clarification. Also, being "brutally" anything isn't anything I'll give anyone as a plus. Hell, I defy anyone to be more "brutal" than I can be. That doesn't make me any better than anyone else.

Brutal honesty is like full frontal nudity. On most people, it looks like shit.



Name calling are we ? :eek3: .

Half truths and plain out lies are the only argument some have, so they relate to victimhood and cursing.

She didn't "leave" him. He chose not to go with her to Indonesia. As far as his grandparents go, who doesn't have ones with a streak of racism? My point is that as a white/Black man which race is he a racist about? Or as Ganja would say: "Which part of his racial identity is he at odds with (hates)?"


Life is full of choices, she chose to go without her son, thats abandoning him imo .

"he would be very much complicit in the government trying to disarm US citizens"


:eek7: based on what ?


And for Mrs Pappy to still cling to the absurd belief that Obama is a "closet Muslim" I ask again:

:eek7: based on what ?


Based on associations with muslims groups .

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

^ ^ ^This is a more complete accounting of Wright's sermon.

Also, tonight (Sunday) at 10PM on CNN, coverage of some of the Pastor's sermons will be given in much more depth than the continuously-looped and inflammatory soundbite. If anyone has an open mind and is at all curious, take a look and see for yourself.

Not black enough ? He's reversable ,if it suits him to be black, he's black, if not he can be white . He has a white mother [who seems to have abandoned him ] .

I don't care what color he is, imo, he is a traitor and a racist . Just as dangerous as his 'uncle 'Mr. Wright who is wrong and full of hate for his nation and it's white citizens .

You think just about any black person who speaks plainly about race relations is racist, Pappy... so your position here comes as no surprise to anybody.

M.

Who cares?

The difference between the right and left?

The Right drudges up b.s. crap and presents it as issues (who leader A slept with or what church candidate B goes to), and the left?

Well to the left its about real stuff like, well this country ever get out of this stupid war, will we ever get a grip on the economy etc.

Not really. It seems people aren't able to actually hear what Obama explained in his speech. He admits there were many aspects of the man he was aware of and disagreed with, but his history with the man goes back far enough that he sees him not the way you see him, but as a human being with flaws and qualities, and someone who, for better or for worse, is connected to him.

Someone in this thread pointed out that the Church he is part of is 90 percent white... if that is true, the reverend could not have been spewing this sort of comment willy nilly. But the real issue is that he may very well have been vaguely aware of the reverends penchant to giving vent to unsavory sentiments. What exactly, it is impossible for us to know at this stage. It doesn't mean he shares them. PERIOD.

Its not hard to understand, yet you somehow still take this as an excuse to lose ALL respect for Obama. That's rather interesting, and it makes me question how much respect you had for him in the first place.



Well you and I have discussed black America before Simone, and this merely reminds me of our former conversations because you still exhibit a lack of understanding about the black community. There is no need for Wright's preachings for Obama's wife to feel this way. The origins of this sentiment do not come from a black preacher, but from the black experience in America. It isn't some fanciful cult point-of-view but a natural effect of slavery, segregation, and present day racial tensions which simmer at the threshold of white America's radar.

What would be more becoming of you would be to admire the woman's honesty, a trait she seems to share with her husband. Her husband is running for president, and yet she is able to tell it like it is: that this is the first time she is REALLY proud of her country.
Do you have a problem with this being the first time she is REALLY proud of her country? If you do, what precisely is the nature of that problem? I'd like you to spell out why feel that is an inappropriate way to feel for a black woman. Are members of oppressed sectors of society meant to feel REALLY proud of their country before their country REALLY starts to show the end of hundreds of years of racism is finally, perhaps showing up? The success of her husband's candidacy so far, and the way his speech was received shows the nation has matured in terms of race-relations... and YES, many black Americans need that to REALLY happen before they can be REALLY proud of America. I am one of them.
That doesn't mean I'm racist, it doesn't mean I endorse the sentiments of Reverend Wright, and frankly, your attempt to amalgamate the two into some sort of excuse for distrusting Obama is very sad.
If your approach turns out to be widespread, it would seem that the fruits of Obama's honesty, and of his wife's honesty, will ironically have been distrust! I have long wondered if the American people could handle an honest politician. We're so used to being utterly deceived. We are so used to politicians being skilled actors who apply make-up to every area they feel might harm them - should I be so surprised that you and potentially others don't know how to respect a candidate who tells it like it is? It has been trained out of you!

M

God I have such a fat crush on you.

God I have such a fat crush on you.

I am flustered and flattered TLG, but remain stubbornly heterosexual :)

Nobody's perfect.

The first sign of racism is the justification of it and the rationalization of it. When you accept two different sets of rules of behavior, one for one group and a second one for another, you've abandoned your morality and humanity. You keep doing the things that make you better than your enemies or you become what you accuse your enemies of being. It is that simple.

I do not rationalize nor justify racism. I hate all barbarians who are guilty of terrorism and support of terrorism, regardless of who they are, and I make a CLEAR difference between them, and the rest of the Palestinians who are innocent of all that.

You mean Begin and Sharon were not human?

I have no use for Begin. He was always a two-faced opportunist. Anybody who pretends to be a hardcore Zionist, but then consider Ben Gurion as an enemy, but Jimmy Carter as a friend...there's something wrong about them:p. He gave away 2/3 of Israel's owned land without even taking care of the entire problem, and letting Egypt be free from the "palestinian problem", leaving it all on Israel. And then he insited on going into Lebanon without even doing the job 1/2 way right, leaving Israel with way more problems than before. The best thing I can say about him is that when he quit politics, that misarable SOB was so ashamed of himself that he hardly even came outside of his house, until his death. I can't say that Ben Gurion was perfect either (and I have LOTS of problems with him), but at least he was a TRUE Zionist, I can't even say that about Begin.

As for Sharon, he is certainly one of the greatest military men in Jewish history and he pretty much saved Israel in 1967 and 1973. As far as his politics goes, I have mixed views on him. He was far from a perfect human being, but he did do great things as well. And no, I don't find him responsible for Sabra&Shatila, since it was done by Arabs and not by him. He just chose to be a libertarian and not intervent. I wouldn't expect hamas members to PROTECT Israel from other enemies (like Iran), but I do expect them not to attack Israel.

So in the early 1930-40's many Jews were terrosrists and terrorist supporters?

1. As you said, "in the early 1930-40's"...so even if it's all correct, it's not relevant in 2008 any more than accusing today's Germans of nazism.

2. There very VERY FEW of them, and I have no evidence that 80% of Jews supported those even at the time. Hell, Ben Gurion and mainstream Zionists were actually fighting AGAINST THEM half of the time:rolleyes:. Learn some history, damn it.

3. They were not "terrorists" in the same way Palestinian terrorists are, because they didn't target innocent people for the most part, and definately not women and children. Most of their victims were British soldiers, leaders and those who had to do with the occupation of Palestine, not innocent British people. Comparing those extreme-Zionist groups to modern terrorism is like comparing 1950's Rock music to todays' Rock music:p.

Well,the word "racist" must be clairified.

None are Klan members or anything like that,but they were brought up in a era and locale where bigotry and slurs against African-Americans were common and they can't shake how they were raised [which I think is one of the things Obama was talking about the other day].


True.

That's very true,sad to say.

I think most liberals (even yourself) would vote for Nixon or even Reagan before Bush II.

Same here.

Now,if they espoused David Duke type rhetoric that would be different,but I can understand them having a hard time shaking how they were raised.

I've always been agaisnt racism,sexism and homophobia intellectually ,but I have had racism,sexism and homophobia inside of me emotionally because society put it in me.

I have worked on it and have been successfull at that,but it is work.


I agree.

I'm not basing my opinion on hype, TT. And I thought you would understand by now, if you understood anything at all about me, that I am not very susceptible to hype in general - right wing hype in particular.

The latest projection I saw had Obama doing better against McCain than Hilary would, state by state.

Hillary may look good on paper when she declares herself in favor of all those things, but those of us who are not naive know there is nothing holding her to those promises but her own word. So the question is, does she display characteristics of someone likely to keep her word even if it jeopardizes her power? The confli