PLEASE dont have the ODASITY to put those Chinese made, Waltmart bought, American flag stickers on you foriegn cars again like they did back in the Gulf War. After all the grief and pain of this grim Tuesday, I dont think I could stand to see my flag desicrated in that way. I might just snap and rip it off or give you a piece of my mind


Be American, buy American, our economy and our workers need it more than ever now.

http://docsmiley.com/bushbeer.net/0911eagleweb.jpg

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 09-14-2001).]

Does the USA have a company that makes American flag stickers? Average consumers are victims of the international corporations who use Chinese slave labor at their factories. I am afraid the economics of high cost unions, envirnomental regulations, etc. have forced manufacturing outside the USA where these factors are much less costly.

Should we not buy anything from Afghanistan?

http://dingo.care-mail.com/photos/2171a.gif

How dare you tell anyone how to support our country during this time? So you're saying that anyone who drives a foreign car doesn't have the right to support the victims and the courageous rescue workers? Oh, my lord, I think I'll go out and buy a sticker today and slap it on my volvo just to show you that, yes, I support the victims, and yes, I'll do it my way. How can you be so petty at a time like this, with an issue as large as this. How am I less American for purchasing a foreign car? You're a xenophobe, pal. Oh, and by the way, what brand of TV do you own?

Woowoo Mike!!! Damn, you're much more articulate now after being kicked out of UCSD and having to spend time at a JC http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Anyways, I have an excerpt here from <u>Macroeconomics</u> by William J. Baumol and Alan S. Blinder. More specifically, it's an exerpt from an article by Robert Reich, former secretary of labor under Clinton:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"What's the difference between an "American" corporation that makes or buys abroad much of what it sells around the world and a "foreign" corporation that makes or buys in the United States much of what it sells?... The mind struggles to keep the players straight. In 1990, Canada's Northern Telecom was selling to its American customers telecommunications equipment made by Japan's NTT at NTT's factory in North Carolina.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If you found that one too easy, try this: Beginning in 1991, Japan's Mazda would be producing Ford Propes at Mazda's plant in Flat Rock, Michigan. Some of these cars would be exported to Japan and sold there under Ford's trademark.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A Mazda-designed compact utility vehicle would be built at a Ford plant in Louisville, Kentucky, and then sold at Mazda dealerships in the United States. Nissan, meanwhile, was designing a new light truck at its San Diego, California, design center. The trucks would be assembled at Ford's Ohio truck plant, using panel parts fabricated by Nissan at its Tennessee factory, and then marketed by both Ford and Nissan in the United States and Japan. Who is Ford? Nissan? Mazda?"

So, Fordman, in all actuality, the car you're driving right now might've been made on the other side of the Pacific, or at least a few of its parts were. Of course, this also brings up the question as to how much competition there is in the market afterall... So, uh, BAN THE WTO, or something...
http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif
-Patrick

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"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

[This message has been edited by PatTheAnarChrist (edited 09-16-2001).]

Bioootch! I got back in UCSD, and its not like your butt hasn't spent its fair amount of time in JC seats! Thanks for the love, anyhow.

Originally posted by IDigFatChicks:
Bioootch! I got back in UCSD, and its not like your butt hasn't spent its fair amount of time in JC seats! Thanks for the love, anyhow.

Dude, all I'm saying is that you've apparently gotten much more eloquent and serious about studying and whatnot. Anyways, when are you gonna get up here to visit, man? I got a fridge full of beer and a well stocked (for a college student) bar waiting for you...

-Patrick

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"The difference between an individual terrorist and a government in some cases may be simply that the former has a bomb but doesn't have an air force."
-William Blum

I agree..

makes me sick to see all this "made in korea" flags at walmart.. I mean.. can't that get something from america?? isn't it closer??

OK, see, I can't be mad at wedge for that comment, it was pretty funny. But obviously, for economic purposes, it's just cheaper to make the flags overseas and import them. But that's so besides the point. Its the meaning behind the flag, not the "made in" sticker. Come on, we should all get together and show support, right? Right? And Pat, I should be up there in the next 3 or 4 weeks. I got my frat rush to take care of before that.

Well, at least I'm not going to put a Made in China, Bought at Wal-Mart Afghanistan flag sticker on my German made Ford http://discussanything.com/Ubb/tongue.gif

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

[This message has been edited by Turbostang (edited 09-20-2001).]

Be American, buy American, our economy and our workers need it more than ever now

Foreign cars happen to put food on this american's table! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/mad.gif

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You can sleep in your racecar, but you can't race your house!

Originally posted by Fordman50:
PLEASE dont have the ODASITY to put those Chinese made, Waltmart bought, American flag stickers on you foriegn cars again like they did back in the Gulf War. After all the grief and pain of this grim Tuesday, I dont think I could stand to see my flag desicrated in that way. I might just snap and rip it off or give you a piece of my mind


Be American, buy American, our economy and our workers need it more than ever now.

http://docsmiley.com/bushbeer.net/0911eagleweb.jpg

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 09-14-2001).]

Holy crap!!!!! You posted something that not only didn’t piss me off a little, but I actually agree with you!!!!! I'm in a state of shock. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Originally posted by Nic:
Foreign cars happen to put food on this american's table! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/mad.gif



If you are referring to "imports" (cars not made in the US) you are absolutely wrong IMO. If you are referring to foreign owned companies building their cars here you are only partially wrong.

If you are referring to "imports" (cars not made in the US) you are absolutely wrong IMO. If you are referring to foreign owned companies building their cars here you are only partially wrong.

I'm actually referring to the fact that I work on Hyundai's for a living. They are built in Korea and shipped to New Jersey where they're then trucked to us from there. So yes...FOREIGN CARS PUT FOOD ON THIS AMERICANS PLATE!!!

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You can sleep in your racecar, but you can't race your house!

So in other words...since I fix other Americans cars and keep them able to carry them wherever they need to go (ie. work, the hospital, to take their kids to school, etc.), just because the car wasn't assembled in the U.S. I'm wrong? Excuse me for trying to pay my way through school and put food on my plate. Excuse me for taking pride in helping other people safely get where they need to go so they can do the things they need to do to survive.

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You can sleep in your racecar, but you can't race your house!

Originally posted by Nic:
I'm actually referring to the fact that I work on Hyundai's for a living. They are built in Korea and shipped to New Jersey where they're then trucked to us from there. So yes...FOREIGN CARS PUT FOOD ON THIS AMERICANS PLATE!!!



My Bad ..... I will rephrase my comments to be more accurate.

Buying a foreign car is in my opinion un-patriotic, and un-American. Purchasing an American made car (and I'm not talking about the Chevy's that are built in Canada) is far more beneficial to the United States of America (in relation ship to the FACT that it will Supply food on more tables in America) than purchasing a Hyundai or any other import.

So, IMO you are still wrong.

Originally posted by Nic:
So in other words...since I fix other Americans cars and keep them able to carry them wherever they need to go (ie. work, the hospital, to take their kids to school, etc.), just because the car wasn't assembled in the U.S. I'm wrong? Excuse me for trying to pay my way through school and put food on my plate. Excuse me for taking pride in helping other people safely get where they need to go so they can do the things they need to do to survive.



You missed my point, I did not say what YOU are doing is wrong.

Ahhh! I'm stuck in ultra-conservative hell! Guess what? When you buy an American car, it really doesn't do our economy much good if you let other economies fail. Do you people not understand basic economic principles on a global scale? Did the Asian crash a few years back not teach you that this is a very connected world? Besides that point, I don't care whether or not you buy an American car or a Japanese car or a Jaguar or a Hyundai, as long as you have good reasons to, and buy that car for its merits. I personally would never buy a Hyundai, even though I'm Korean, cuz they just don't appeal to me. I'd much rather buy many other cars. But anyhow, how can you tell someone not to buy a foreign car to help the US economy. Does it really do the economy good if you buy solely due to where the company is based? Let me ask you this, do you support affirmative action? If you can't see the correlation, what you're asking us to do is to support American car companies for producing (in some poeple's opinion) an inferior product simply because of where it was produced. This is the same arguement as with race, where people are rewarded the same amount while one of them has a history of worse, usually academic, performance. Get the point? The decision of buying and driving a car should be made becuase of what you like. And yes, that is the American way. That is what so many veterans died protecting, our freedom to choose. And that freedom includes my buying a car that I like, even if it was made in another country. Hey, if you want those people driving foreign cars to start buying American, maybe you should ask Detroit to start putting out products that appeal to that segment of the market, instead of whining at us. Ford's got the right idea with the Focus. It's all business.

Actually "Fatchicks", I am a liberal who is just patriotic (always have been, no war patriote here) The reason I tink its important is because I DO UNDERSTAND the economics behind it. I had several Grad level ecomonic classes.

Manufacturing jobs are "high paying" jobs, more so than service level jobs for the most part (ei mechanic). I manufacturing job is refered to as a "BASE" job is in the "economic base" of a location or country. For every base job, 3 additional jobs are created creating a ripple effect. Base jobs or critical to the economic health of this country and by far the most desirable jobs to keep and create!

Once again, Fordman, you have not answered my question, though. Are you asking us to crutch the US economy? Because that is what it sounds like you want us to do. It is my understanding that your position is we should buy cars produced by American companies that are only made in America, correct? You have not defended your reason, besides being patriotic. And all of this has strayed very far from the original posts, which I consider very, very ignorant. That people who own import cars are somehow less patriotic than you. Yeah, you might be a good-ole American boy who eats red meat BBQs and corn on the cob all day long, and I might be a little Asian boy who eats rice 6 times a week, but you cannot tell me that you are any more patriotic or American than I am.

This is getting REALLY stupid!

OK, would any of you care to answer the following question. Who is being more patriotic?

Buyer A: Buys a Honda or BMW manufactured in the United States.

Buyer B: Buys a Chevrolet Camaro manufactured in Canada.

Joe Morgan runs a 10 sec. Ford Pinto in the foreign drag races because the Ford 2.3L engine he has was manufactured in Brazil.

I happen to drive a German made Ford with an American made 2.3L and T-5.

The Geo (General Motors) Prizm and Toyota Corolla are the same car, manufactured in Fremont, California. Difference is the name tags and the rear taillights.

Repeat after me class, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TOTALLY DOMESTIC OR FOREIGN CAR ANYMORE!

ALL cars are hybrids... What differentialtes the term "foreign" or "domestic" is where the individual PARTS were manufactured, and the percentage of foregn/domestic parts used. In other words, as long as a car has over 50% domestic content, it's considered to be a domestic.

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Thanks, turbostand, I think we all needed that little reality slap. =) Hey, but how much fun is life without a little pointless arguing?

Originally posted by IDigFatChicks:
Once again, Fordman, you have not answered my question, though. Are you asking us to crutch the US economy? Because that is what it sounds like you want us to do. It is my understanding that your position is we should buy cars produced by American companies that are only made in America, correct? You have not defended your reason, besides being patriotic. And all of this has strayed very far from the original posts, which I consider very, very ignorant. That people who own import cars are somehow less patriotic than you. Yeah, you might be a good-ole American boy who eats red meat BBQs and corn on the cob all day long, and I might be a little Asian boy who eats rice 6 times a week, but you cannot tell me that you are any more patriotic or American than I am.

OK, let me get this straight. According to you:

1. being patriotic= "very, very ignorant"

2. Wanting to support my country and its economy= being a (white redeck) who "eats red meat" and this is really a race issue http://discussanything.com/Ubb/rolleyes.gif

I get mad when I see people putting U.S. flags on import cars because I feel that these people are selfishly harming our economy. As soon as a war breaks out, all the foul weather patriots come out of the woodwork. People who otherwise WONT put their money where their mouth is (not full time patriots)! If wanting to put my money where my mouth is buy supporting my country in a real way as well as being a FULL time flag flying patriot is "very, very ignorant" than I am guilty.

As for turning this into a racial issue ie: redneck vs Asian. Thats nuts. I have no problem with other races what so ever! This is about creating more high paying jobs in the economy that I live in. BTW, I have been a vegitarian on and off most of my life so I think you know what to do with your stereo type!




[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 10-01-2001).]

1. being patriotic= "very, very ignorant"
I think his statement meant that buying an inferior product in the eyes of 'duty' or patriotism is ignorant.'

2. Wanting to support my country and its economy= being a (white redeck) who "eats red meat" and this is really a race issue http://discussanything.com/Ubb/rolleyes.gif

I get mad when I see people putting U.S. flags on import cars because I feel that these people are selfishly harming our economy. As soon as a war breaks out, all the foul weather patriots come out of the woodwork. People who otherwise WONT put their money where their mouth is (not full time patriots)! If wanting to put my money where my mouth is buy supporting my country in a real way as well as being a FULL time flag flying patriot is "very, very ignorant" than I am guilty.
That is how it should be man! Isn't america great can we can choose what is better? Isn't it great cause we come togehter in a time of crisis? That is what the flags are about. Do you also get mad when someone at a asian food market has an american flag up? Becuase they are selling some food that may be imported?

I think Gary's post is the important one here. ALSO think of the massive tarrifs on TRUE imported cars. The US govt profits either way...Or think about car companies...if imports didn't sell here, dealerships/plants/service depts would close IN THE US and OUR PEOPLE would be out of jobs...


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Manu Narayan

if imports didn't sell here, dealerships/plants/service depts would close IN THE US and OUR PEOPLE would be out of jobs...

exactly

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You can sleep in your racecar, but you can't race your house!

Originally posted by Nic:
exactly



But dude, an buying an import DOES NOT help as much !!!!!

The people that loose their jobs in America due to the lack of import sales could probably find Jobs with one of the expanding American companies (Manufacturing, dealerships or whatever)

Fordman, I wasn't calling you a racist at all. Hell, after having to read through Maniac's useless whining for a week, its nice to talk to someone who has a different opinion but is willing to post intelligently about it. My apologies if you thought I was assuming you were racist. But I do think you are being rather cynical about this. The point I was trying to make is that it seems that you are, for lack of a better word, something of a xenophobe. There is a difference between national pride and hatred of things that come from outside the country. I just don't see why you wouldn't support people who support the US. And hell, what's wrong with foul weather patriots? Doesn't that tell you something about them? To me, those foul weather patriots you talk about seem like they've taken a lot for granted, and only recently realized how precious our freedoms are. But if you think the way to protect those freedoms is by buying American, yes, I do consider that ignorant, because it shows a lack of respect to all those people who love their country and buy foreign cars. A serious lack of respect.

Originally posted by IDigFatChicks:
Fordman, I wasn't calling you a racist at all. Hell, after having to read through Maniac's useless whining for a week, its nice to talk to someone who has a different opinion but is willing to post intelligently about it. My apologies if you thought I was assuming you were racist. But I do think you are being rather cynical about this. The point I was trying to make is that it seems that you are, for lack of a better word, something of a xenophobe. There is a difference between national pride and hatred of things that come from outside the country. I just don't see why you wouldn't support people who support the US. And hell, what's wrong with foul weather patriots? Doesn't that tell you something about them? To me, those foul weather patriots you talk about seem like they've taken a lot for granted, and only recently realized how precious our freedoms are. But if you think the way to protect those freedoms is by buying American, yes, I do consider that ignorant, because it shows a lack of respect to all those people who love their country and buy foreign cars. A serious lack of respect.

OK maybe some oldschool "buy American" folks ARE Xenophobes who hate imports but thats not me. There are some fine import cars AND people for that matter. If I "hate" anything, it the fact that so many Americans coming up now have the faulse opinion that U.S. made cars suck and act like snobs looking down on people who choose to drive American on principal. We are stereo typed as knuckle dragging, "red meat eating" 5th grade educated "xeonophobes".

That fact of that matter is export base jobs are critical to our country's economy and out countinued success. We didnt get to be the strongest (and freest) country in the world by accident. For generations our ancestors have understood and held the value that buying American is good and the right thing to do. This commonly held American beliefe/value the has become lost since the onset of the "me generation". While you consider it "disrespectfull" to rag on Americans that (selfishly IMHO if not uninformed) buy imports yet wave the flag, I on the other hand find it extreamly disrectfull to invest your money in another country, robbing the US of jobs and your $$$. See where I am coming from?

Originally posted by Fordman50:
OK maybe some oldschool "buy American" folks ARE Xenophobes who hate imports but thats not me. There are some fine import cars AND people for that matter. If I "hate" anything, it the fact that so many Americans coming up now have the faulse opinion that U.S. made cars suck and act like snobs looking down on people who choose to drive American on principal. We are stereo typed as knuckle dragging, "red meat eating" 5th grade educated "xeonophobes".

That fact of that matter is export base jobs are critical to our country's economy and out countinued success. We didnt get to be the strongest (and freest) country in the world by accident. For generations our ancestors have understood and held the value that buying American is good and the right thing to do. This commonly held American beliefe/value the has become lost since the onset of the "me generation". While you consider it "disrespectfull" to rag on Americans that (selfishly IMHO if not uninformed) buy imports yet wave the flag, I on the other hand find it extreamly disrectfull to invest your money in another country, robbing the US of jobs and your $$$. See where I am coming from?

OK, see, this is what I was asking for. An acknowledgement that yes, choosing to buy either a foreign car or an American car should be a decision made on the quality, in your own opinion, of that car. But if you think that I was stereotyping, which I was, sorry, you were doing the same thing, which is what upset me. You were saying that all of those people driving import cars and had American flags on them were those same people who look down their noses at American made cars simply because they are American cars and don't hold the same social value as a BMW or whatever. But please, please don't assume my patriotism is less because I drive a crappy volvo and I'm planning on getting a civic. I mean, on a tangent, I chased after an older model mustang today out of my school parking lot, cuz it was one fine looking car. Had a huge ford sticker on the back (which I thought was tacky, I know who made the car) and a huge cowl on the hood (which I thought looked absolutely killer). Turned out to be a nice looking older woman driving it, too. So, no hate, right? Just a frank and friendly discussion of different ideas.

Yes big Ford stickers ARE tacky.

I get bent when I talk to my coworkers who will ONLY drive toyota and think all US car drivers are "redneck". They make the same case as you that this is a free market and its THEIR money and they will buy a QUALITY car. The two things that piss me off and make their argument fall apart is: 1) Yes its your money, but its also you country and your economy and your neighbors job. Some things are worth paying for. 2) NOONE is asking you to buy a poor quality car! The beliefe held by many of you generation is that American cars suck! Thats just not so. American cars (for the most part) are of comparable quality and value to imports (OK maybe no GM, they suck balz).

True, I don't doubt taht American build quality has gone up dramatically since the bad ole days of Motor city. But there are many reasons why an American car is not my first choice. I mean, true, if for my next car, I could find a really good deal on a Dodge Avenger, which I think is a nice looking car, or maybe a 95-96 GT Stang, I would, but hell, my budget is very limited. And bang for the buck, I can do a helluva lot with the civic. Maybe that's just cuz I know people who work on hondas a lot, but damn, a 170 hp engine swap for under 1500 bucks into a 2200 lb car for (hopefully at auction) under 2000 bucks? And I personally think EG hatchbacks are nice looking cars. That's just me, tho. And yes, you're right, I understand the patriotic motive in buying American, but as we saw earlier in this string, there are a whole bunch of us Americans who rely on foreign companies for a paycheck every week. We have a very interdependent economy at work here.

I had a gf who has an 82 accrd that was really fun to drive and reliable. My wife had a 90 CRXsi when I married her (I made he sell it) I know they are nice cars and I dont fault them for driving them (but hey, they'er girls http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif ) The truth is, I really dont mind import car drivers under ordinary circumstances. But for whatever reasons I get real bent when they do one of two things:

1) talk smack about American cars like they are crap.

2) put American flags on them esp during times of war.

I cannt help it, it just makes my blood boil!

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate of the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

A little empathy goes a long way

http://www.bushorchimp.com/images/pic36.jpg
But for creatures of lesser intelligence, the word EMPATHY can be a hard word to roll off the lips.

I have 2 cars, a 93 Mustang and a 99 Honda Passport we purchased new.

The Passport was $28,000 off the lot.

The dealer made $3,000 in profit from that vehicle, he then paid his salespersons, mechanics and other employees, all of whom live near me IN the US.

The remaining $25,000 went to the manufacturer. Honda. That money is used in the process of acquiring raw steel from PA, fabricating parts at the American Honda Assembly and Manufacturing division on Virgina and Arizona, all of whom employ local US citizens. The parts were then shipped to Terra Haute, Indiana where there were assembled by more US citizens at an Isuzu final assembly plant.

Any remaining profits became capital of the American Honda Corporation, who's middle management and upper management is consisting of, yes, US born citizens.

So not only am I going to put an American flag on my Honda, Im going put as many of the largest American flags I can find all over it!

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"I just bought a Mac to help me design the next Cray." - Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when was informed that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

"Black holes are where God divided by zero." - Steven Wright

"I have often regretted my speech, never my silence." - Xenocrates

Call me unpatriotic or whatever you wish, but I could give a shit less who else makes money off the Hyundai's I work on so long as they're putting money into my pocket. That's the American way!

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You can sleep in your racecar, but you can't race your house!

Noone has called you unpatiotic my friend. Why are you getting all bent out of shape? You have 3 mustangs, your dad has a brand new mustang, your gf has a nice mustang and you get you'lls money that your making off of fixing imorts is going to the right places. If anything I would say you are a FINE rollmodel of a you patriot Nic and you make me proud!

I kinda feel like it's their choice to make. People that want to holler "American cars suck" without substantial justification piss me off, but people who buy vehicle brand x, y, or z because they feel it's the best car for the purpose they need it for I have no problems with. Besides...if everyone bought American cars we wouldn't have ricers to make fun of http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif

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You can sleep in your racecar, but you can't race your house!

Thank you for the kind words, Ian. I really don't know how to articulate the nerve that was struck here. To over simplify it...if people didn't buy foreign cars, there would be no Hyundai's for me to work on. If there were no Hyundai's for me to work on, I'd be out of a job and my dad would be out of a job. If we were out of our jobs, we'd be out of our home. We'd have no money to spend on our Fords. We'd have no food on our table. I'd have no means for paying for my college education. Basically...if it weren't for people who buy foreign cars I wouldn't live the "American Dream" that I'm living.

Competition, whether foreign or domestic, is good for our economy. It keeps prices down while keeping quality high. If it weren't for this competition from foreign manufacturer's can you imagine what the quality of our domestic vehicles would be like. I imagine it would be pretty poor, don't you? In other words...I think we NEED that competition in the U.S. from foreign manufacturer's and I applaud people for buying whichever product they think is best; therefore continually pushing the envelope for domestic manufacturer's to produce a better product. Everybody benefits from this free market, and THAT's what I think has made America into the world leader it is today.

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You can sleep in your racecar, but you can't race your house!

Compitition is good, but dont you get pissed at these yuppies that would rather drive a kia before a Ford?

Hey dont worry Nic, if there were no Hundyas to work on there would prolly be even more GMs http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif

See, Fordman, that's the attitude that I think some people are having a problem with. Exactly what is wrong with the person who would rather drive a hyundai than a ford? What Nic said was a clear, concise statement of what I was trying to say. Competition in the free market is what drives America's economy. That is what makes our situation, in a word, beautiful. You might think there is something wrong with the "yuppie" who buys a hyundai over a ford, but personally, I think that there is something wrong with the person who buys a metro over a base model civic. But that is a personal stance on cars that I would not be upset enough over to call those people "unpatriotic". And isn't it kind of shallow to judge people's patriotism on what kind of car they buy? And dammit! Not all "ricers" are punks, alright! Sheesh. I might have to pull a Maniac88 and start bringing some of my import-car-enthusiast friends onto this forum! =)Just kidding, I got enough cojones to back up my own claims without calling in the cavalry, for now at least.

Hey FatChicks, bring 'em on over. As long as things don't get out of hand, maybe it's just what we need to wake up some good discussion on this forum.

FWIW, up until the early-mid '80s, American cars were crap with a few exceptions. Even then, General Motors still has alot to learn about quality, and Chrysler has slipped alot since Iacocca retired. Some people just haven't lived down the stigma of what American cars used to be like.

Besides, patriotism to me means alot more than waving a flag. It means standing by what this country represents... We are a country that values freedom and liberty above all else (or is supposed to at any rate). Freedom means being able to choose the car you want to drive, and put whatever stickers you want on it. In other words, I don't think it's very patriotic to tell poeple what kind of stickers they can put on their cars, and what they can't.

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Thanks, turbostang. And we'll see if any of my "import-car" enthusiast friends will come over soon. I'll try not to invite the volatile ones. =) Hmmm, what about 24/7Asian for my friend's handle? Just kidding!

Originally posted by Turbostang:
Hey FatChicks, bring 'em on over. As long as things don't get out of hand, maybe it's just what we need to wake up some good discussion on this forum.

FWIW, up until the early-mid '80s, American cars were crap with a few exceptions. Even then, General Motors still has alot to learn about quality, and Chrysler has slipped alot since Iacocca retired. Some people just haven't lived down the stigma of what American cars used to be like.

Besides, patriotism to me means alot more than waving a flag. It means standing by what this country represents... We are a country that values freedom and liberty above all else (or is supposed to at any rate). Freedom means being able to choose the car you want to drive, and put whatever stickers you want on it. In other words, I don't think it's very patriotic to tell poeple what kind of stickers they can put on their cars, and what they can't.



Actually, American cars were great before the 80s too and just had a few bad years from the late 70s until the mid 80s.

If freedom is being about to but the car you want than Afganistan and arab countries are free too. They have all kinds of cars over there! Your right though that being patriatic has a LOT more to do with doing right by your country and being there when it needs you. Whether that means serving in the army, buying war bonds or buying American cars. I TRUELY equate buying an IMPORT with draft dodging. I always have and that is a belief passed down to my buy my family (esp all of my grand parents which ALL 4 served in the arm services too).

Actually, American cars were great before the 80s too and just had a few bad years from the late 70s until the mid 80s.

Name some of the great American cars from about 1973 (death of the muscle car) to 1983 (about the time when Ford and Chrysler were starting to put quality back into their products).

If freedom is being about to but the car you want than Afganistan and arab countries are free too. They have all kinds of cars over there!

That's not what I said Ian. What I said was that telling people what to buy, and what they are allowed to stick on their cars is pretty unpatriotic IMO. This isn't a totalitarian society.

I still dare you to name 1 car being produced right now that is 100% American in parts AND manufacture.

I TRUELY equate buying an IMPORT with draft dodging.

Considering that your hero Clinton was a draft dodger, such a statement doesn't mean much to me.




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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

I TRUELY equate buying an IMPORT with draft dodging. I always have and that is a belief passed down to my buy my family (esp all of my grand parents which ALL 4 served in the arm services too).

Man, you say some of the *silliest* shit sometimes, it is unbelievable.

What about the clothes you buy? How many drafts have you dodged there? What about some of the hardware and appliances you buy. Eh?

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"Ultimately all hominids came from Africa, and therefore everyone in America should simply check the box next to 'African-American.' My maternal grandmother was German and my maternal grandfather was Greek. The next time I fill out one of those forms I am going to check 'Other' and write in the truth about my racial and cultural heritage: 'African-Greek-German-American.' And proud of it."

-- Michael Shermer

[This message has been edited by buggy (edited 10-11-2001).]

Once again, Fordman, you've crossed the line. It is absolutely insulting and degrading to many Americans (oh, by the way, did you know that you aren't the sole voice in deciding who gets to become an American and claim that title?) that you would even dare to equate draft dodging to buying an import car. I mean, it is your right to this opinion, but have you truly stepped back and thought about what that says? So every single male between the ages of 18-25 who drives an import car has the same level of patriotism to you as those pansies who ran off to Canada (of course some had a good reason, most didn't) during the Vietnam War? Oh, please. Once again, I believe this is a view born out of ignorance. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that you've owned foreign cars before in your life? So does that mean that GM can hire some henchmen and come knocking on your door for being unpatriotic and demand tribute from you? I mean, isn't that what you're asking?

Here's a thought... wan't more people to buy domestic? Build a superior car at a competative price, and it would happen.

$20-$30k for a "average" car is pretty outrageous.

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that you've owned foreign cars before in your life?

He mentioned his wife owned one, but he made her sell it. He had to set poor little wifey straight, didn't he?

No honey, you can't have things you prefer because you must succumb to my way of thinking. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/tongue.gif

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"Ultimately all hominids came from Africa, and therefore everyone in America should simply check the box next to 'African-American.' My maternal grandmother was German and my maternal grandfather was Greek. The next time I fill out one of those forms I am going to check 'Other' and write in the truth about my racial and cultural heritage: 'African-Greek-German-American.' And proud of it."

-- Michael Shermer

Originally posted by buggy:
No honey, you can't have things you prefer because you must succumb to my way of thinking. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/tongue.gif



Many liberals think that American people are too dumb to make their own choice. (Hence many of the Clinton's policies..) He is just being a good liberal and thinking for the rest of us dummies... http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif

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Formerly known as 74Mav
(Mav dropped the no. 2 connecting rod and I'm pissed)

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited 10-11-2001).]

Originally posted by IDigFatChicks:
So every single male between the ages of 18-25 who drives an import car has the same level of patriotism to you as those pansies who ran off to Canada (of course some had a good reason, most didn't) during the Vietnam War? Oh, please. Once again, I believe this is a view born out of ignorance. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that you've owned foreign cars before in your life? So does that mean that GM can hire some henchmen and come knocking on your door for being unpatriotic and demand tribute from you? I mean, isn't that what you're asking?

WOW, why is everyone jumping up and down about "henchman" telling you what you can buy. You all got me WAY wrong here. I am talking about CHOICE and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!! We have an obligation to do right by our country! If you choose to send your money over seas, than fine, dont complain to me about the job situation or economy (Gary). As far as draft dodgers, Clinton may have been a lot of stupid things but he never "dodged the draft". Niether did my grandfathers or my father in Nam. What was your point? Like I said earlier, I dont think that the younger generations mean to be less patriotic, I just dont think they have been raised/taught to really understand why its important to protect american jobs and support our country in SIGNIFICANT ways buy buying big ticket items.

"Born out of ignorance"? LOL QUITE the opposite, try studying economics. What do you know about "durable goods" or the "multiplyer effect"?

Gary, Im sure Brian would agree that the "74MAV" was a solid platform. Also, how about a Ford Taurus? They are GREAT cars, and rated number one in sales and customer satisfaction for like 6 years in a row bumping the Honda Accord for that covetted spot. They are like 16K right?


[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 10-11-2001).]

Originally posted by Fordman50:
WOW, why is everyone jumping up and down about "henchman" telling you what you can buy.

Just doing my part to spin you up, Ian. Been a while. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif


Originally posted by Fordman50:
Gary Im sure Brian would agree that the "74MAV" was a solid platform.

Yeah, right up until the incident in my sig. I was wanting to build another engine. Just not this soon...


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Formerly known as 74Mav
(Mav dropped the no. 2 connecting rod and I'm pissed)

Originally posted by Brian:
Yeah, right up until the incident in my sig. I was wanting to build another engine. Just not this soon...




Yeah, like how many 30 year old Japanese cars out there still running. Esp the way Im sure you drive them!!

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“The first casualty when war comes is truth,” Senator Hiram Johnson

Gee, is it that hard to see why I'm jumping all over your opinions, Fordman? You're telling me that I don't have any sense of patriotism because I was not taught it. That I am simply a recipient of the good fortunes of America, and don't know how to properly give back. And funny, even though you seem to have a broad knowledge of economics, that's not what I was talking about when saying you might be a little closed-minded. I was referring to the fact that you seem to like to label people immediate based on criterion that seems to have very little to do with the topic on hand.

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Yeah, like how many 30 year old Japanese cars out there still running. Esp the way Im sure you drive them!!

Would you believe I was only going 30mph? To borrow a line from Kurt Angle, "It's true, it's true." Was coming home from work, just got off the highway and was slowing to a traffic light when it went. Hadn't been on the gas real hard for several weeks, then that. Still haven't pulled it apart to see what happened. All I t know is and lot of noise, some smoke, no compression in No.2 (piston does not move up & down), and 2.5 gallons of coolant in the oil pan...



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Formerly known as 74Mav
(Mav dropped the no. 2 connecting rod and I'm pissed)

This is exactly the kind of bullshit you're famous for Ian...

WOW, why is everyone jumping up and down about "henchman" telling you what you can buy. You all got me WAY wrong here.

I think we have you right. You start off telling people what kind of decals they can stick on their cars, and telling people that if they buy foreign cars, they are unpatriotic. Makes you sound like a fascist pig.

Weren't you the one who said:

I dont think I could stand to see my flag desicrated in that way. I might just snap and rip it off or give you a piece of my mind

Moving on...

If you choose to send your money over seas, than fine, dont complain to me about the job situation or economy (Gary).

Who signed NAFTA/GATT into existance? At least I didn't vote for the treasonous sleaze Clinton who sent our whole industrial base overseas!

Funny you should be talking about the job situation and the economy... weren't you the one who was complaining about the working poor a while ago?

As far as draft dodgers, Clinton may have been a lot of stupid things but he never "dodged the draft".

Then maybe you ought to read Bill Clinton's letter to the draft board. I'll post it next.

What was your point?

Better to buy a foreign car than to vote for a draft dodging president.

Gary, Im sure Brian would agree that the "74MAV" was a solid platform.

I think Brians story speaks for itself.

Also, how about a Ford Taurus? They are GREAT cars, and rated number one in sales and customer satisfaction for like 6 years in a row bumping the Honda Accord for that covetted spot. They are like 16K right?

I see reading comprehension isn't one of your strong suits either. I said name some great cars between '73 and '83 did I not? The early Tauruses were pieces of crap... they were notorious for grenading their transmissions. The Taurus itself didn't start to beat out Honda until 1992.

Yeah, like how many 30 year old Japanese cars out there still running. Esp the way Im sure you drive them!!

I still see plenty. Are you aware that a few years ago Nissan was buying up all the old 240-260 Z cars it could find, was restoring them, and reselling them?

Since we are talking about foreign cars in general, how about the VW bug? I still see shitloads of those on the road. Are you aware that the bug was one of Hitler's ideas?


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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

[This message has been edited by Turbostang (edited 10-12-2001).]

Bill Clinton's letter to Col. Eugene Holmes, Director of the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas 3 December 1969.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Col. Holmes, I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have had to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing, about what I want to and ought to say. First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind and decent to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing which made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC. Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked for two years in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did. I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations Oct. 15 and Nov. 16. Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form." From my work I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation. The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above. Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity. The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years. (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all finished anyway.) When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School because there is nothing else I can do. In fact, I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use. But the particulars of my personal life are not nearly as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I began to think I had deceived you, not by lies -- there were none -- but by failing to tell you all the things I'm writing now. I doubt that I had the mental coherence to articulate them then. At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1-D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self regard and self confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible. I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of this second year of my Rhodes scholarship. And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal. Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lot to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Col. Jones for me. Merry Christmas.

Sincerely, Bill Clinton


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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

1992 Affidavit by Lt. Col. Holmes: Regarding Bill Clinton's Draft Evasion Lt. Col. Holmes a highly decorated officer of the United States Army, survivor of the Bataan Death March and 3-1/2 years as a POW of the Japanese, served 32 years in the army before retiring with 100% disability. His decorations include the Silver Star, 2 Brone Stars, 2 Legions of Merit, the Army Commendation Medal and many others. During the Vietnam War, he personally inducted both of his own sons into the service -- one for 3 years as a regular army enlisted man, and the other as a commissioned officer (after he had completed ROTC training).

Affidavit There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent 3-1/2 years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others (who) avoided serving their country in the Vietnam War, they are not aspiring to be president of the United States. The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United states Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (Sept. 5) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft, Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make. Since I may be the only person living who can give a firsthand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record. Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewed (sic) enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army. The next day I began to receive telephone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's (sic) office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's (sic) office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. I was not saving him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated Dec. 3, 1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification. The Dec. 3 letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the calibre, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended. When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of commander-in-chief of our armed forces. I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese, it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.

Eugene J. Holmes Colonel, U.S.A., Ret. September 1992




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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Although I do not completely agree with you on your stances over Clinton, I feel that you know what I'm talking about, turbo. Some day, someone's gotta teach me how to quote like that. Grrr.

Let's set the record straight. The original engine was fine. The one that dropped the rod was the one I built. So, I was not saying that the car was not, as Ian put it, 'a solid platform.' Being close to some of the guys in the Intn'l Maverick & Comet Club (yes, such a thing does exist..), there are quite a few Mavericks out there with well over 200,000 miles. My original engine had in excess of 170,000. Ot was strill going strong when the tranny died. The car was easy to work on and very reliable (until I built that damn engine.)

I am not agreeing with Ian or condoning what he says. I'm just saying that, at least in the Mavericks case, I know of one decent car Detroit put out in the mid '70's

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Formerly known as 74Mav
(Mav dropped the no. 2 connecting rod and I'm pissed)

Well, basically I asked Ian to name some of the great cars made between '73 and '83. So far, he has't been able to answer the question.

Likewise, I did say there were some exceptions. My dad used to own an AMC Gremlin. It too was a solid, reliable car. However, there is a difference between "solid" and "great". I would hardly call the Gremlin a great car. Not only was it funny looking, but it was also lacking in alot of the technologies that were becoming standard with the imports... things like disk front brakes for example. The Gremlin, along with many American cars at the time were still using front DRUM brakes! LOL!

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Um, Mustang... How many great foreign cars were made during those years? I think those years in general were bad for all cars. Nothing really sticks out as being great or even good. And for the record, I pulled the engine out of my 86 Mustang when it had 225,000 hard, abused, raced miles on it. Nothing broken either, I'm just replacing it with something better.



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Red 86 GT


"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
Benito "Il Duce" Mussolini


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the first"

Albert Einstein

How about the Datsun/Nissan Z-cars? Rx-7? 1st gen Honda Accord?

Neighbor has a '78 Toyota pickup with over 600,000 miles on it... original engine too.

WHat are you replacing the engine in your Mustang with Jeff?

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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

I've never really cared for those long nosed Z cars, But a 1st gen Accord? What do those even look like? I know the Civics from the 70's looked like little toys they were so small. I'm just glad the 70's are over and done http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Anyway i'm putting in an anti gravity light propulsion motor from a downed ufo. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif


Actually I'm just putting in a bored 302, but I've got alot of money into it. Between my lightening of the car and the new motor it should be pretty quick once I get it all tuned. Then I can finally start saving for a blower. I've got the speed disease really really bad.

Btw, hows your Merkur coming along?

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Red 86 GT


"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
Benito "Il Duce" Mussolini


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the first"

Albert Einstein

Yeah, but those Z-cars do have a following.

1st Gen Accord? I'm sure you have. They were a HUGE success when they came out.

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~wstef/pix/blue.jpg

Please tell me you updated the heads on your 302! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Merkur is coming along well. I've finished up everything from the T-5 swap except for the speedo cable. Basically I just need to climb under the car and do it.

Lately I have been concentrating on cleaning up the interior and doing repairs. Next year I plan to get serious... swap in a power head, upgraded turbo and whatnot. My goal is to get 400+ RWHP out of the car.



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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Gary--My gf had a 81 Accord. I loved that car. At the same time, My mom had an 81 Ford Fairmont. It was a POS. So what. never said all American cars are great and I never said all imports suck either. I said that there are good/comparable American cars and that as Americans, we should consider them first to support our economy (as well as global environment and labor standards). If thats closed minded than I guilty.

As to my taurus comment, that was in responce to your stantment about 'try building a good car at a fair price'. As for saying the Taurus is a POS and the 240Z is great, answer me this: How many Tauruses and how many 240Zs have you owned? (clue, if you have owned one or neither than your opinion is worth spit) I have owned BOTH. My 90 Taurus now has 190,000 miles on it and still looks and drives like a new car! It have never had any major repairs either or broke down on the road. Our 240 (dad's) WAS a fun driving car but by 1976 (it was 4 years old) it was rusting apart and on its 2nd motor! That car was almost the death of my father. He always had that thing in the shop with OHC broblems. He was a happy man the day he sold it.

BTW Gary, why are you so angry all the time? Its a message board, relax, I dont hate you dude.

Fatchicks-- One thing sticks out in my mind. You said my stance was "born out of ingnorance" and that I am "close minded". You said this AFTER I told you that I got my car values from my family and grandparents. BOTH on my parents and 3 of 4 of the grandparents are all college educated. All of them are artistic (into painting and playing instruments too) HARDLY the "close minded" stereo types you have painted. You would like to believe that they live in trailors and eat raw meat (who's close minded again?) but the one grandmother who taught me the me about being an American was a mechanical engineer and a lead developer for the SR71 "Blackbird" and the Space shuttle!!! She is also and accomplished artist. As a child she was my hero because she drove a 69 GTO vert (she had a 67 GTO too)

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“The first casualty when war comes is truth,” Senator Hiram Johnson

Actually I'm just putting in a bored 302, but I've got alot of money into it. Between my lightening of the car and the new motor it should be pretty quick once I get it all tuned. Then I can finally start saving for a blower. I've got the speed disease really really bad.

What's your combo? What are you hoping to run?

Cristina-



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"Ultimately all hominids came from Africa, and therefore everyone in America should simply check the box next to 'African-American.' My maternal grandmother was German and my maternal grandfather was Greek. The next time I fill out one of those forms I am going to check 'Other' and write in the truth about my racial and cultural heritage: 'African-Greek-German-American.' And proud of it."

-- Michael Shermer

Gary--My gf had a 81 Accord. I loved that car. At the same time, My mom had an 81 Ford Fairmont. It was a POS. So what. never said all American cars are great and I never said all imports suck either. I said that there are good/comparable American cars and that as Americans, we should consider them first to support our economy (as well as global environment and labor standards). If thats closed minded than I guilty.

I believe you opened up the can of worms by telling us that sticking an American flag on an import was unpatriotic, and that buying an import over a domestic was the equivalent of draft dodging.

Since you plead guilty to being ignorant and close minded, what do you think a fair punishment for you should be?

As for saying the Taurus is a POS and the 240Z is great, answer me this: How many Tauruses and how many 240Zs have you owned?

Whether or not I have owned such and such car is irrelevant. Just because I haven't owned a Volkswagen Beetle doesn't mean it's probably the most sucessful car in history. Just because my dad owned a Gremlin doesn't mean it's destined to go down in history as an all time great.

I never said ALL Taurus' were a POS... just the early ones. Ever replace the tranny on a Taurus? Until you have, maybe you ought to keep your opinion to yourself. There's alot more to owning a car than putting gas in the tank Ian. One nice thing about being a mechanic, you get to test drive ALOT of cars.

BTW, did you know the Taurus SHO engine was built by Yamaha?

Seems you never owned that 240Z either, your dad did. Maybe your opinion doesn't mean spit either. I've had ALOT of friends who have owned Z's, including my last GF, and all but one has been reliable as hell.

BTW Gary, why are you so angry all the time? Its a message board, relax, I dont hate you dude.

I'm not angry all the time... not even most of the time. Face it dude, you're an *******. I just owe you some payback for some of the previous crap you dumped on me is all.

------------------
Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Originally posted by Turbostang:
Yeah, but those Z-cars do have a following.

1st Gen Accord? I'm sure you have. They were a HUGE success when they came out.

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~wstef/pix/blue.jpg

Please tell me you updated the heads on your 302! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Merkur is coming along well. I've finished up everything from the T-5 swap except for the speedo cable. Basically I just need to climb under the car and do it.

Lately I have been concentrating on cleaning up the interior and doing repairs. Next year I plan to get serious... swap in a power head, upgraded turbo and whatnot. My goal is to get 400+ RWHP out of the car.



Ok, I remember those things, I haven't seen one around in a long time.

And yes, I got rid of the 86 heads a long time ago, back in 96 I bought a set of E7's which I ported and installed. BIG difference!! Now I've got a set of Twisted Wedges though, much much better http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif
Here's a bad pic..
http://www.netSnapShot.com/users/1187/images/O4sKq8CoBQIAAEvrCXw_1187_24.pjpeg

And here's a pic of my interior while I was stripping all the rubber sound deadener out of there.. http://www.netSnapShot.com/users/1187/images/O4sLEcCoBQIAAF7pG84_1187_28.pjpeg

What year is your Merkur? And what exactly is a power head? I'm not well versed on the 2.3's. And 400RWHP?! Damn, that things gonna be a beast. I can't wait to see some pics of that build up. Have you seen this guys site---> http://www.msvorinich.itgo.com/index.htm ??

That things pretty cool, I like his triple intercooler thing http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif I wonder what that thing is gonna run?

I want a turbo!

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[This message has been edited by Corporate Avenger (edited 10-14-2001).]

Originally posted by buggy:
What's your combo? What are you hoping to run?

Cristina-




It's a 306 with flat top pistons, Twisted wedge heads, custom cam, Performer RPM manifold and pretty much all the bolt ons. It's backed up by a T-5 and some 3.27's that need replacing with some 3.73's.

The car is pretty light. The only option the car came with was a/c which I got rid of long ago. I also pulled out the heater, all the sound deadening, front bumper, power steering, front sway bar, and anything else that didn't serve a purpose went in the trash http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif I'm hoping with the aluminum heads and radiator It'll be down to 2700lbs. It was 2900 a few years ago before I pulled alot of weight from the car.

So with all that I hope I can get into the high 11's on the motor once it's all tuned. There was a guy on anothe site that had a similar combo in a heavier car that went 11.90's. So I know it can be done..

Sorry to hear you feel that way Gary. What can I say other than "pay back" is for kids. Let it go, you'll be a happier person and live longer. If I held on to all past insults from people like you I would be a miserable feeling person. Let it go.

------------------
“The first casualty when war comes is truth,” Senator Hiram Johnson

Originally posted by Corporate Avenger:
It's a 306 with flat top pistons, Twisted wedge heads, custom cam, Performer RPM manifold and pretty much all the bolt ons. It's backed up by a T-5 and some 3.27's that need replacing with some 3.73's.

The car is pretty light. The only option the car came with was a/c which I got rid of long ago. I also pulled out the heater, all the sound deadening, front bumper, power steering, front sway bar, and anything else that didn't serve a purpose went in the trash http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif I'm hoping with the aluminum heads and radiator It'll be down to 2700lbs. It was 2900 a few years ago before I pulled alot of weight from the car.

So with all that I hope I can get into the high 11's on the motor once it's all tuned. There was a guy on anothe site that had a similar combo in a heavier car that went 11.90's. So I know it can be done..

Sweet! That sounds awesome. I am dealing with a budget build. Got the car for $800. It's a 4CYL 91 Coupe. It is a standard bore 302. GT40 heads, an intake off of a 5.0 Explorer, 4.10 gears, JBA shorty headers, 2.5 inch offroad H pipe and a Dynomax ultra flow cat back.

I am not stripping anything out. I want it to look like a brand new 91, if that is possible. My husband is going to teach me how to weld, so I can clean up the engine bay, and also hide some of the wires. He's installing the roll bar and welding up the chassis and torque boxes.

I don't know what it will run - I am going to dyno it as is, and then do some porting and dyno it again. Should be fun!

Are you going with any power adders? What sort of compression? I am just curious http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

I am debating on a nitrous kit or a blower.

Good luck, sounds like a kick ass car. And let me know what type of numbers it puts out.

Cristina-



------------------
"Ultimately all hominids came from Africa, and therefore everyone in America should simply check the box next to 'African-American.' My maternal grandmother was German and my maternal grandfather was Greek. The next time I fill out one of those forms I am going to check 'Other' and write in the truth about my racial and cultural heritage: 'African-Greek-German-American.' And proud of it."

-- Michael Shermer

CA:

It's an '87 Merkur. Car was rare as it lacked alot of the power goodies that normally come with the Merkurs in general, like power windows, sunroof, power locks, etc. I specifically bought it for those reasons.. less power goodies = less weight! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Power head is basically a turbo head that used larger valves, has the combustion chamber polished, and light porting work. I found a company that offers them on an exchange basis.

Don't know if you ever heard of Joe Morgan. He built a 2.3L Pinto that runs 10's in the 1/4. He's running about 425 RWHP out of a turbo 2.3L... car weighs in around 2500 lbs. Thing I found so attractive is that he redefines the term budget hot-rod. He managed to put together the whole package for under $7000... including the car! His car is a daily driver, and passes California emmissions.

At any rate, he lives in your neck of the woods. Might want to look him up sometime.

Your combo sounds like it is coming along well. That's the route I was thinking about a while back just after my '87 GT was wrecked.

Turbo is definately the way to go if you can swing it.

Ian:

I agree, payback is for kids. Maybe when you stop acting like one, I'll stop treating you like one.



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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Originally posted by buggy:
Sweet! That sounds awesome. I am dealing with a budget build. Got the car for $800. It's a 4CYL 91 Coupe. It is a standard bore 302. GT40 heads, an intake off of a 5.0 Explorer, 4.10 gears, JBA shorty headers, 2.5 inch offroad H pipe and a Dynomax ultra flow cat back.

I am not stripping anything out. I want it to look like a brand new 91, if that is possible. My husband is going to teach me how to weld, so I can clean up the engine bay, and also hide some of the wires. He's installing the roll bar and welding up the chassis and torque boxes.

I don't know what it will run - I am going to dyno it as is, and then do some porting and dyno it again. Should be fun!

Are you going with any power adders? What sort of compression? I am just curious http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

I am debating on a nitrous kit or a blower.

Good luck, sounds like a kick ass car. And let me know what type of numbers it puts out.

Cristina-




Cool, a lightweight coupe with that combo and 4.10's should really move.

That's something I need to learn is how to weld, that's cool he is going to teach you. There is so much you can do at home with a welder! I moved my solenoid and all those ugly wires on the drivers side of the engine compartment inside the fenderwell. It's definitely a worthwhile mod.


Right now I'm just gonna be N/A for a while, I want a blower really bad but they are so much that I'm really starting to like the idea of a 125 shot. The only things I don't like about Nitrous though is that it's easier to blow your motor and it runs out. But I wouldn't mind running it until I can afford a blower.

I'll definitely post dyno #'s/track times when It's all done. But that'll be awhile cause I gotta get better exhaust and replace my busted torque boxes (Thanks to Southside).

CA, you would be surprised how fast you can develop good welding skills with these new MIG welders.

If you plan to do any home welding, I do HIGHLY advise you bite the bullet up front and get a high quality polarizing mask. They run $250 and up, but they are worth every penny... they make life OOOOH so much easier, and they will save your eyes.

Actually, if you go with a staged nitrous system, you should be quite safe with your engine. The only thing is that if you go full bore with your nitrous setup, it will run about the cost of an entry level blower by the time all is said and done... I'm talking about an ignition module, a Jacobs mastermind, bottle warmer, remote solenoids, and all that good stuff. Also, in this area, NOS is about $40 for a 10 lb fill. It adds up REAL fast.

I still think you should look into the turbo system. IF you are good at sniffing out the deals, you should be able to cobble something together for about the cost of a nitrous system.

------------------
Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Originally posted by Turbostang:
Actually, if you go with a staged nitrous system, you should be quite safe with your engine. The only thing is that if you go full bore with your nitrous setup, it will run about the cost of an entry level blower by the time all is said and done... I'm talking about an ignition module, a Jacobs mastermind, bottle warmer, remote solenoids, and all that good stuff. Also, in this area, NOS is about $40 for a 10 lb fill. It adds up REAL fast.

The only need for a staged nos set up if a 300+ shot is being used. You can get a progressive controller for a 150 or so shot. It's a the wiser choice for less intensive purposes, IMO.

------------------
"Ultimately all hominids came from Africa, and therefore everyone in America should simply check the box next to 'African-American.' My maternal grandmother was German and my maternal grandfather was Greek. The next time I fill out one of those forms I am going to check 'Other' and write in the truth about my racial and cultural heritage: 'African-Greek-German-American.' And proud of it."

-- Michael Shermer


[This message has been edited by buggy (edited 10-17-2001).]

Originally posted by Corporate Avenger:

Cool, a lightweight coupe with that combo and 4.10's should really move.

That's something I need to learn is how to weld, that's cool he is going to teach you. There is so much you can do at home with a welder! I moved my solenoid and all those ugly wires on the drivers side of the engine compartment inside the fenderwell. It's definitely a worthwhile mod.


Right now I'm just gonna be N/A for a while, I want a blower really bad but they are so much that I'm really starting to like the idea of a 125 shot. The only things I don't like about Nitrous though is that it's easier to blow your motor and it runs out. But I wouldn't mind running it until I can afford a blower.

I'll definitely post dyno #'s/track times when It's all done. But that'll be awhile cause I gotta get better exhaust and replace my busted torque boxes (Thanks to Southside).



I'm mega excited about the welding. I can be the artsy fartsy chick I've always longed!

You should be safe with a 125 shot. I doubt you have stock injectors and fuel pump. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif


------------------
"Ultimately all hominids came from Africa, and therefore everyone in America should simply check the box next to 'African-American.' My maternal grandmother was German and my maternal grandfather was Greek. The next time I fill out one of those forms I am going to check 'Other' and write in the truth about my racial and cultural heritage: 'African-Greek-German-American.' And proud of it."

-- Michael Shermer

[This message has been edited by buggy (edited 10-17-2001).]

I just have to comment that, after reading this thread, there were a couple of different emotions I felt. First, I feel really dumb cuz you guys know a LOT about cars. Only to have your knowledge. And I also am really glad that I'm on this site, because I love learning about cars and how to work on them and such. But honestly, the thing that I noticed most was that, hell, when you guys are talking about your Merkurs and Stangs and F-bodies, there's really little or no difference when my friends are debating whether a RX-3 is better than a Datsun, or if the Nissan Silvia is a worthwhile car to import to the US, or how the WRX would spank a Evo VII. Its just I can't understand this hatred between imports/domestics that I feel a lot of times. Why is it that people have to choose sides? Why can't I have a little Civic hatchback and a Dodge Avenger? Its like, there's few enough people who really know what they're doing with cars anyhow, so why must we be so exclusive? I know most of the people on DA are pretty open minded about stuff like this, but there's those people who seem to want to pick fights. Just upsets me so much. And now that I'm starting to get interested in bikes, I'm learning about all of this hatred between the Harley camp and crotch rockets! I give up, there's just too many closed minded people out there. But yeah, thanks for being accepting of a little rice-burner like me, for the most part. That's just what I wanted to say.

I think some of it has to do with some of the stereotypes that have developed. There is alot of misconceptions on both sides of the fence.

Example:

Domestic owners think that small displacement engines can't perform. This one actually surprises me, as American car manufacturers have produced some fast 4/6 cyl cars like the Mustang SVO, Shelby Challenger, and Buick Grand National.

Import owners tend to think that American cars are still back in the '70s quality wise, and tend to think that the Camaro stigma applies to all musclecars... driven by white trash.




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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

Originally posted by Turbostang:
CA:

It's an '87 Merkur. Car was rare as it lacked alot of the power goodies that normally come with the Merkurs in general, like power windows, sunroof, power locks, etc. I specifically bought it for those reasons.. less power goodies = less weight! http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Power head is basically a turbo head that used larger valves, has the combustion chamber polished, and light porting work. I found a company that offers them on an exchange basis.

Don't know if you ever heard of Joe Morgan. He built a 2.3L Pinto that runs 10's in the 1/4. He's running about 425 RWHP out of a turbo 2.3L... car weighs in around 2500 lbs. Thing I found so attractive is that he redefines the term budget hot-rod. He managed to put together the whole package for under $7000... including the car! His car is a daily driver, and passes California emmissions.

At any rate, he lives in your neck of the woods. Might want to look him up sometime.

Your combo sounds like it is coming along well. That's the route I was thinking about a while back just after my '87 GT was wrecked.

Turbo is definately the way to go if you can swing it.

Ian:

I agree, payback is for kids. Maybe when you stop acting like one, I'll stop treating you like one.



Cool, that's how my car came, none of that power junk http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

And that power head is good up to over 400 horsepower or are you fully porting it? I'd love to see pics of the buildup.

Yea I've read about Joe Morgans Pinto a few years ago, I didn't know he was around here though. If I remember right he shoots like a 50 or a 75 shot off the line till the turbo spools up. I think that thing would be the coolest car to cruise around in. Imagine the look on peoples faces when you blow by their Vette/Viper/Camaro.. That would be fun!!

I didn't know you had an 87, too bad it got wrecked http://discussanything.com/Ubb/frown.gif

Oh trust me, I want to turbo my car BAD. The problem with that is the only system I know of that is Ca. legal is Incon, and I hear alot of people are having problems with them and there is a huge waiting list. I know it's possible to make your own kit but I can't fabricate all those parts cause I don't have the tools. Another reason I need a welder!
The other problem with a turbo is I would probably blow my motor to hell. With the power turbos make I would probably split my block in two. But for the future I have an awesome engine builder here who wil build me a bulletproof shortblock if I can afford it so who knows.
After seeing all the turbo pro 5.0 cars at the WFC I gotta go turbo someday. Those cars sound like F-16's when they launch, I love that sound..

And I was wondering?? Does anybody make a 4 valve head conversion for the 2.3? I was thinking the airflow benefit of 4 valves could really help make big numbers on a turbo car..

Fatchicks---Maybe I didnt make myself clear. I dont hate or even dislike imports. Like I said, there are some fine ones out there. I would just like to see people put their money where there mouth is, esp in times of war.

Truthfully, I do not know a lot about modding imports because when I was into them, there were NO mods to be found. Modding imports is a pretty new thing in this game.

That looks like fun Jeff. I have 250 RWHP but a 3700 pound car! 300+ HP in a 2700 car sounds like a BLAST to drive. The reason I didnt go that route (AND why I sold the CRXsi) is because Im a safty nut and a father. I wanted airbags, ABS and lots of metal. My thick doors are 250 pounds a piece!!! I guess I will just need more HP to compesate!.

------------------
“The first casualty when war comes is truth,” Senator Hiram Johnson

Wait, so you have purchased foreign cars before, Fordman? Then what the hell is your point? What are you arguing? I don't understand what you're trying to say about patriotism, if you admit to buying foreign cars. I'm lost.

Originally posted by IDigFatChicks:
Wait, so you have purchased foreign cars before, Fordman? Then what the hell is your point? What are you arguing? I don't understand what you're trying to say about patriotism, if you admit to buying foreign cars. I'm lost.

Hypocrite?


------------------
"Ultimately all hominids came from Africa, and therefore everyone in America should simply check the box next to 'African-American.' My maternal grandmother was German and my maternal grandfather was Greek. The next time I fill out one of those forms I am going to check 'Other' and write in the truth about my racial and cultural heritage: 'African-Greek-German-American.' And proud of it."

-- Michael Shermer

Originally posted by Turbostang:
CA, you would be surprised how fast you can develop good welding skills with these new MIG welders.

If you plan to do any home welding, I do HIGHLY advise you bite the bullet up front and get a high quality polarizing mask. They run $250 and up, but they are worth every penny... they make life OOOOH so much easier, and they will save your eyes.

Actually, if you go with a staged nitrous system, you should be quite safe with your engine. The only thing is that if you go full bore with your nitrous setup, it will run about the cost of an entry level blower by the time all is said and done... I'm talking about an ignition module, a Jacobs mastermind, bottle warmer, remote solenoids, and all that good stuff. Also, in this area, NOS is about $40 for a 10 lb fill. It adds up REAL fast.

I still think you should look into the turbo system. IF you are good at sniffing out the deals, you should be able to cobble something together for about the cost of a nitrous system.




Cool, do you think for about 250 bucks I could get a decent one? If I could learn to weld I could do anything to my car now that I have an air compressor.

Is the polarizing mask the kind that auto darkens by itself? If so my friend has one and they are cool as hell.

I guess you're right about the nitrous stuff adding up. Maybe I'll just get a used Vortech or Paxton. My friend sold his low mileage T-trim last year for only 1600 bucks and it came with a serpintine pulley and a cogged pulley setup. The guy that bought sure got a good deal!!

I really want to do the turbo thing but I wouldn't know where to start. I guess alot of guys get their stuff from junkyards but I don't know all the right parts to get for a turbo. I know one guy on Stangnet who just flipped his Mac headers and got some junkyard Mitsubishi headers of some sort. When I think about it though I guess the hardest part is fabricating all the tubing and the mounts for everything. That's why I need a welder! Btw, do you know how much a good intercooler costs??

Originally posted by buggy:
I'm mega excited about the welding. I can be the artsy fartsy chick I've always longed!

You should be safe with a 125 shot. I doubt you have stock injectors and fuel pump. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif



Hehe, yea I've got 24's and a 155lph pump, I think I'm gonna get a 255 though soon cause my 155 is pretty old. I'll probably only do the nitrous thing if I can get a kit real cheap just to keep me satisfied until I can get boost http://discussanything.com/Ubb/smile.gif

Cool, do you think for about 250 bucks I could get a decent one? If I could learn to weld I could do anything to my car now that I have an air compressor.

Maybe a used one. I see new MIG units going for around $400.

Is the polarizing mask the kind that auto darkens by itself? If so my friend has one and they are cool as hell.

It is... and it makes life real easy when you try to strike an arc.

I guess you're right about the nitrous stuff adding up. Maybe I'll just get a used Vortech or Paxton. My friend sold his low mileage T-trim last year for only 1600 bucks and it came with a serpintine pulley and a cogged pulley setup. The guy that bought sure got a good deal!!

There you go. I agree, that's a great deal!

I really want to do the turbo thing but I wouldn't know where to start. I guess alot of guys get their stuff from junkyards but I don't know all the right parts to get for a turbo. I know one guy on Stangnet who just flipped his Mac headers and got some junkyard Mitsubishi headers of some sort. When I think about it though I guess the hardest part is fabricating all the tubing and the mounts for everything. That's why I need a welder! Btw, do you know how much a good intercooler costs??

Do you want to go single or twin turbo setup? If twin, do you want to do a parallel or sequential setup?

Single turbo is probably the easiest to setup. You need to find something along the lines of a T-04 with about a .60 or slightly higher A/R ratio. '84 SVOs had a turbo that would be about right. Flipping the header is a common trick, and it works. Invest in a good wastegate. Rest of the parts can be fabricated. Highly recommend you get ALL exhaust parts caramic coated.

Probably need to find a shop to bend the tubing for you. Not that unreasonable.

Run a K&N cold air kit off of the front of the turbo. The pipe from the turbo outlet will go to your TB, or alternatively an intercooler.

Make sure you run a big downpipe.

Also, building the fuel system is critical. You WILL need to go at leat one if not two steps higher in fuel line size, plus large injectors, and booster pump (Boost-a-pump). Probably want to look at 35lb/hr injectors to start. You don't want to do what Rock did and risk fuel starvation on the top end. I know the wall he was running across was too small a fuel line... couldn't carry the volume of fuel he needed for his turbo... what he did was keep moving up injector sizes... He was ultimately running 72 lb/hr injectors off of stock lines.



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Artist formerly known as Reindeer

So Is the mig welder the one to get? I know there are tigs and arc welders. I'm thinking of getting one really soon. And do you know if there are different kinds of migs? Can I just get any kind?


If I go the turbo route I just want to keep it simple and run a single. So the 84 SVO has a good turbo? I didn't think there was a difference between the 84-86's.

I know about the fuel system issues, I really like the Aeromotive complete fuel system. It includes a sumped stock tank. A 1000 horsepower or so pump, high flow filter, high flow braided lines, all an fittings, regulator, and fuel rails. It's about a thousand bucks but it's alot cheaper than piecing the stuff together..

I really like the idea of piecing a kit together myself, I've always like goin junkyard hunting
:)

Here's that fuel system, It's got everything, including the wiringhttp://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pics/img/product/50fuelsystem_l.jpg

TIG stands for Tugsten Inert Gas... it is used for welding aluminum and stainless steel.

A wire feed welder is basically a MIG welder w/o the gas.

Stick Electrode welders are what is commonly thought of as arc welders... they use a flux covered stick. These are trickier to use, as you need to select the correct type of material for the welding process.

No, not all MIG welders are created equal. Two big things to look at are power and duty cycle. More power = more penetration or the general thickness of the material you can weld. Duty cycle represents the amount of minutes during a 10 minute cycle that the welder can function.

Many hobby welders will run on 110v AC, but if you are looking at a more serious welder, you probably will want to have a 220v AC line installed.

The '84 SVO has a .64 aspect ratio which is better matched to your application than the .43 A/R ratio used in '85-'86 SVOs. The T-Birds used the IHI turbo which are fine for stock use, but generally self destruct with any performance applications. The Merkurs also use the .43 A/R ratio. .6-.8 is about right for your application.

I'm impressed with that kit. Didn't know someone had put together a complete package like that.

Ok I think I get it now, a friend of mine has a wire fed welder and it works pretty good. I think something like that is all I need.

I can only run 110v here, I think with what i'll be doing it's all I will need.

I'm gonna go look at some tomorrow..


Ok so the Aspect ratio is the size or something? I'm guessing the .64 is bigger than the .43??


Yea the Aeromotive kit is really cool, once you get that sucker there's no need to ever upgrade again..

Dude, the Aeromotive kit is too high $$$. I like the $149 vortech fuel rail (my friend has them). I have an Aeromotive FPR. Its a nice piece. If Eldebrock made their $55 FPR for SN95s I would have got one, they work fine. For a Fuel pump you and get an $89 walpro. Persoanlly I would love to boost my stock pump with a KB Boost-a -pump (or that new Saleen one). I like the idea of have a reostat on the dash for on the fly adjustments. As for Sumped tanks, I have NEVER heard anyone who had one that didnt say they were a PITA! (plus they arnt cheap) If anything I would go with a Summit cell tank. Stock fuel line do the job fine too.

The kit is complete though, and it is for high end applications. Obviously it would be a waste of money on a naturally aspirated or even a blown engine. But I know turbo motors love fuel, I think the stock lines and rails would be a restriction at anything over 8psi. I'm gonna check out the prices for everything separately and see what it comes out to..

Ok, it comes out to about 1600 bucks if you buy all the parts separately, and about 1200 with the kit. And you get a new fuel tank and you don't have to go through the hassle of getting the sump welded into the stock tank.