I just dont get it. He must have some magic spell that he cast on crowds because I havent heard him say squat. His mantra of "change" is as old a politics itself, why are people tripping overthemselves to put this kid in office?:hmm:

I just dont get it. He must have some magic spell that he cast on crowds because I havent heard him say squat. His mantra of "change" is as old a politics itself, why are people tripping overthemselves to put this kid in office?:hmm:

Because it is clear from the things he says, and the mistakes that he makes, that he actually puts thought and drive into his positions and is not a servant to the machine. And because the other choice is Hillary, who quite frankly looks like having to attend rallies is some punishment she thinks she has to endure before being allowed access to her divine right to rule us.

Because it is clear from the things he says, and the mistakes that he makes, that he actually puts thought and drive into his positions and ......


I am going to have to stop you right there.

What positions? EVEN if he expressed positions... He has never proposed a single solution to address anything....ever. His record in the senate is a joke...He never even votes, more often than not he actually refrains from voting on those rare days that he shows up for work! He is TOO afraid of TAKING A POSITION that he KNOWS can be held against him in the future (like when he runs for president). In his 2 short years in office, he litterally has accomplished nothing....I want a job like that. I wont deney he is charming or smart, he just seems like a slimey PC politician to me (of the worst sort no less).

Years of practicing Polical Correctness has caused his testicals to shrivel up. I am quite sure that Hilary's balls are quite a bit bigger than his...

I couldn't image going down on big butt Hillary so maybe Obama is the choice of those who don't want to gag from the smell and wants to cast their vote his way. Maybe that why Bill doesn't sleep with her, or chases other women around. If I were Bill and married to the 'ice queen' I would consider alternatives too. LOL:nice:

Whew! I'd thought that being TV-free had put me out of the loop - I, too, had not heard of anything Obama actually stood for except "change". (Hillary, of course, yaps about health care whenever she's in front of a camera, but she's had HOW long to DO something?)

Obama is smooth and nonoffensive. An excellent peddler of snake oil to the clueless.

I listened to him for a few minutes on one of those fake 'Senate Investigation' farces on C-Span a couple of times. He's a shallow air head, which is why so many of those morons can 'relate' to him. I can't imagine that demographic ever supporting anybody actually qualified, as that would be somebody way out of their league, and might as well be a Reptilian Shapeshifter from outer space.

i feel no temptation to even kiss the guy

If you "haven't heard him say squat," you haven't listened to him.

He impressed me so much at the debate on Tuesday.

I am going to have to stop you right there.

What positions? EVEN if he expressed positions... He has never proposed a single solution to address anything....ever. His record in the senate is a joke...He never even votes, more often than not he actually refrains from voting on those rare days that he shows up for work! He is TOO afraid of TAKING A POSITION that he KNOWS can be held against him in the future (like when he runs for president). In his 2 short years in office, he litterally has accomplished nothing....I want a job like that. I wont deney he is charming or smart, he just seems like a slimey PC politician to me (of the worst sort no less).


If you go to his website or to a candidate information site (where they compare candidates' positions) you could easily find where Obama stands on any issue you so desire. But I have a feeling you're more interested in bashing his televised speeches than actually getting information.

I am quite sure that Hilary's balls are quite a bit bigger than his...

What a hot visual!

Ian in da flucking house neegahs!

Watcha gonna do except come and get sum.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

This has 64 pages of stuff.

Obama is clearly the most talented American politician to come along in many years.

In any face-to-face TV appearance, the opponent doesn't stand a chance, as that pathetic McCain is going to learn.

People are tired of politicians and thanks to ET they drool over celebrities. Now they have a rock star, and to hell with issues and abilities. Most people vote on "likeability" anyway. A recent study showed that people voted on how a person looked "honest" regardless of issues.

People are tired of politicians and thanks to ET they drool over celebrities. Now they have a rock star, and to hell with issues and abilities. Most people vote on "likeability" anyway. A recent study showed that people voted on how a person looked "honest" regardless of issues.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

<cough>

Quite impressive.

NOT! I looked at the site. Its a joke. Here is a SMALL sample of the BS in the PDF:

"Technology
Obama will encourage the deployment of the most modern communications infrastructure to reduce the costs of health care, help solve our energy crisis, create new jobs, and fuel our economic growth."

Oh really? Obama will ENCOURAGE deployment of communications? What the hell does that mean? And they go on to say this will help SOLVE our energy crisis, create new jobs and ....

Did you EVEN read that crap? :confused:

I guess I need to post a website to run for president. Apparently for the Y generation that is all you need... :rolleyes: Win a debate? The man is terrified to say anything! He is the embodiment of PC, and a represents everthything that is wrong with the process. He IS a very skilled politician. He so diplomatic, he can charm the painties off a nun...

The dude is an empty suit

dude speakers and fiber optic wire wil totally solve our problems..

NOT! I looked at the site. Its a joke. Here is a SMALL sample of the BS in the PDF:

"Technology
Obama will encourage the deployment of the most modern communications infrastructure to reduce the costs of health care, help solve our energy crisis, create new jobs, and fuel our economic growth."

Oh really? Obama will ENCOURAGE deployment of communications? What the hell does that mean? And they go on to say this will help SOLVE our energy crisis, create new jobs and ....

Did you EVEN read that crap? :confused:

Wow, I can't believe the PDF is 64 pages with that sentence repeated over and over. Now I DO feel gypped!

Wow, I can't believe the PDF is 64 pages with that sentence repeated over and over. Now I DO feel gypped!

Dont make this so easy, if your going to post that stuff, be prepared to defend it.

"Affordable, High-Quality Child Care:
Obama will also provide affordable and high-quality child care to ease the burden on working families."

Really, so Uncle Obama is coming over after school to baby sit my kids now? Thats cool. My wife and I both work and we really need this. Oh wait, you mean he is going to pay for all 30 million school age kids sitter with tax money? Wait...Thats.... 1 gazillion dollars in that one sentance. Multiply that times 40 sentences a page, then times 64 pages that....Ummmm, stoopid money! :eek7:

Actually, if any candidate wasn't morbidly afraid of the teachers' unions they would move to an 8 or 9 hour school day and pump up education spending by 50% or more to cover it.

I know what your problem is, and it shows through the whole thread and others who use ad hominem alone in it: you can't handle complex problems. It is OK, there's a good 51 million people like that who voted in 2004. You aren't alone. Obama doesn't give the sound bite or the black and white image that the simple-minded need. He gives longer, in depth, and quite frankly often boring responses because the problems can't be fixed with 12 words. I'll give you an example from your own response..
Obama talks about telecommunications infrastructure to help fight a myriad of problems. A bright person looks at this and says, "he's talking about telecommuting." See, getting more people out of the office and back at home but still working productively reduces energy expenditures on transportation and office complexes, creates more jobs supporting that infrastructure, reduces the amount of pollution thus reducing health care costs, reduces employee stress also reducing health care costs. But in order to get all of that, you have to have an attention span longer than what is required to listen to Rush Limbaugh shout out a few insults between pills.

^8 or 9 hour school days? It's not the teachers' unions you'd have to worry about; it's the useless parents who think a good, hardworking academics-oriented kid is a product of magic. They're the root of 97% of education's problems anyway.

Not that teachers should be compelled to teach an 8- or 9-hour school day. WTF?

I know what your problem is, and it shows through the whole thread and others who use ad hominem alone in it: you can't handle complex problems. It is OK, there's a good 51 million people like that who voted in 2004. You aren't alone. Obama doesn't give the sound bite or the black and white image that the simple-minded need. He gives longer, in depth, and quite frankly often boring responses because the problems can't be fixed with 12 words. I'll give you an example from your own response..
Obama talks about telecommunications infrastructure to help fight a myriad of problems. A bright person looks at this and says, "he's talking about telecommuting." See, getting more people out of the office and back at home but still working productively reduces energy expenditures on transportation and office complexes, creates more jobs supporting that infrastructure, reduces the amount of pollution thus reducing health care costs, reduces employee stress also reducing health care costs. But in order to get all of that, you have to have an attention span longer than what is required to listen to Rush Limbaugh shout out a few insults between pills.

I hate rush, I hate bush I am typically a dem!!! So I think you got me pegged all wrong.... I have also telecommuted via VPN for years...I WORK in technology

Here is part of my problem, Americans ARE stooopid I agree, and many of the same asshats that thought that invading Iraq was a good idea because Bush told them so (I knew it was wrong), are the same sheople that now want to vote for Obama. Because NOW they realized they ****ed up by going into Iraq (Duhhhh) and they want to get the hell out now that they have ****ed that place all up.

People that dont know their history are doomed to repeat it... My father was a victum of the "Vietnam insurgancy" and I know want to see another generation of PTSD vetrans that come back victums of a stoopid country that sends their kids off to war just to knee jerk them out in a shameful retreat... Americans are both gulible and have short memories attention spans too I agree)...

The

^8 or 9 hour school days? It's not the teachers' unions you'd have to worry about; it's the useless parents who think a good, hardworking academics-oriented kid is a product of magic. They're the root of 97% of education's problems anyway.

Not that teachers should be compelled to teach an 8- or 9-hour school day. WTF?

TLG, I'll meet you in the Big Debates with this one...

I agree that Obama will destroy McCain in any debate. They are not in the same league. It will be a like competing against a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest.

Rebumpkins better pray that Clinton is their opponent.

grimrebuke: Actually, if any candidate wasn't morbidly afraid of the teachers' unions they would move to an 8 or 9 hour school day and pump up education spending by 50% or more to cover it.

I know what your problem is, and it shows through the whole thread and others who use ad hominem alone in it: you can't handle complex problems. It is OK, there's a good 51 million people like that who voted in 2004. You aren't alone. Obama doesn't give the sound bite or the black and white image that the simple-minded need. He gives longer, in depth, and quite frankly often boring responses because the problems can't be fixed with 12 words. I'll give you an example from your own response..
Obama talks about telecommunications infrastructure to help fight a myriad of problems. A bright person looks at this and says, "he's talking about telecommuting." See, getting more people out of the office and back at home but still working productively reduces energy expenditures on transportation and office complexes, creates more jobs supporting that infrastructure, reduces the amount of pollution thus reducing health care costs, reduces employee stress also reducing health care costs. But in order to get all of that, you have to have an attention span longer than what is required to listen to Rush Limbaugh shout out a few insults between pills.:nice:

I havent heard him say squat.

I hadn't either, but apparently he (or rather the creator of this Iowa-centric brochure) has listed his positions and concerns. Yeah, some are marketing stretches, and some in areas out of his control, but apparently he DOES address issues, which was the original rant, I believe.

And the dude has a logo! The son of a bitch is a BRAND!

I like his idea to post all pending legislation online, including all earmarks with the person putting the earmark into the bill listed next to the earmark.

I like his adjustments to the whole Executive Privilege canard.

I like the thing where they don't allow anyone from the Executive Branch to leave government to join a company or lobbying firm that deals with the Executive Branch for the entire length of his administration.

The transparency and the disengagement from Big Business is what's selling me on this guy. The rest is stuff that the government needs to support but needs to allow us to put together for ourselves. Keeping Big Business from screwing with us is what's needed.

The description of a Fascist state includes the "hand-in-glove" alliance between Industry and Government, but it doesn't require either or the other to be the hand or the glove in the alliance. Traditionally, Government has been the hand, but as we've seen of late, Industry has the capacity to also be the hand, with Government serving Big Business for its own profit. Any time that Government works to defend or promote specific Corporate Sectors or Industries with legislation or policy, to the detriment of the society as a whole, you've got fascism, just as clearly as if the Corporate Sectors or Industries were slaves to Government. It's the alliance that determines the Fascism, not the direction that the benefit flows in that alliance.

Every other candidate is much too deferential to Corporate America for my comfort. Beyond that, the presidency is the kind of job that reminds me of the analogy "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that your original goal was to drain the swamp". No one is ever prepared from day one to be president. If they were, then the 2nd terms of every presidency would have been a breeze, instead of the disasters that they've been for every single modern president we've had.

Barack is older than Teddy Roosevelt, JFK, and Bill Clinton were when they were sworn in as president. He's pretty damn quick on his feet too. That, and the way that he sees things, is good enough for me.

I agree, wholeheartedly!!!!!!!!

obama happens to be reasonably intelligent and a skilled rhetorician. plus he looks good.

that's all.

I just dont get it. He must have some magic spell that he cast on crowds because I havent heard him say squat. His mantra of "change" is as old a politics itself, why are people tripping overthemselves to put this kid in office?:hmm:

A. He's not exactly doing amazing. He's in a dead heat with Clinton, and it's pretty much down to next tuesday. Even if he wins, then the SD's can pull some really ****ed up shit.

B. It's more to do with how the media blatantly favors him.

I like the thing where they don't allow anyone from the Executive Branch to leave government to join a company or lobbying firm that deals with the Executive Branch for the entire length of his administration.

The transparency and the disengagement from Big Business is what's selling me on this guy. The rest is stuff that the government needs to support but needs to allow us to put together for ourselves. Keeping Big Business from screwing with us is what's needed.

The description of a Fascist state includes the "hand-in-glove" alliance between Industry and Government, but it doesn't require either or the other to be the hand or the glove in the alliance. Traditionally, Government has been the hand, but as we've seen of late, Industry has the capacity to also be the hand, with Government serving Big Business for its own profit. Any time that Government works to defend or promote specific Corporate Sectors or Industries with legislation or policy, to the detriment of the society as a whole, you've got fascism, just as clearly as if the Corporate Sectors or Industries were slaves to Government. It's the alliance that determines the Fascism, not the direction that the benefit flows in that alliance.

Every other candidate is much too deferential to Corporate America for my comfort. Beyond that, the presidency is the kind of job that reminds me of the analogy "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that your original goal was to drain the swamp". No one is ever prepared from day one to be president. If they were, then the 2nd terms of every presidency would have been a breeze, instead of the disasters that they've been for every single modern president we've had.

Barack is older than Teddy Roosevelt, JFK, and Bill Clinton were when they were sworn in as president. He's pretty damn quick on his feet too. That, and the way that he sees things, is good enough for me.

Well said.

I'm well over 30 - in fact I'm older than you, Fordman - but here's an answer anyway. I saw the exact same "doesn't address the issues" s*** pulled wrt Kerry in 2004, even after I had shown conclusively and repeatedly that Kerry had far more in-depth policy proposals available than his opponent. This just seems to be part of some people's playbook, applied regardless of its applicability. Some people, especially but not only those one the right, seem to have learned exactly one thing in the last couple of decades - that a smear's effectiveness is often much greater than its validity. They've been applying that lesson at every opportunity, they will apply it in the coming election, and we all need to be aware of it. Just because someone says something negative about a candidate doesn't mean they have the slightest reason for believing it. That innate revulsion that most of us feel toward false accusations is altogether absent in some people, and those people tend to be very outspoken politically.

^Good post

It is generational,it's also an issue of class.

I notice that Democrats/liberals from blue collar backgrounds [like myself] support Hillary [in part becasue she addresses our issues and Obama doesn't]and people from more priviledged backgrouds support Obama.

It's like when I was 12 and working class libs supported Bobby Kennedy and priviledged libs supported Eugene Mc Carthy.

I am going to have to stop you right there.

What positions? EVEN if he expressed positions... He has never proposed a single solution to address anything....ever. His record in the senate is a joke...He never even votes, more often than not he actually refrains from voting on those rare days that he shows up for work! He is TOO afraid of TAKING A POSITION that he KNOWS can be held against him in the future (like when he runs for president). In his 2 short years in office, he litterally has accomplished nothing....I want a job like that. I wont deney he is charming or smart, he just seems like a slimey PC politician to me (of the worst sort no less).

Years of practicing Polical Correctness has caused his testicals to shrivel up. I am quite sure that Hilary's balls are quite a bit bigger than his...

The only things I know him to have refrained from voting on are certain specific abortion issues such as late term abortion. I don't exactly blame him on this and it fits his profile of seeking common ground to unite the country around so we can accomplish much needed work on our own system and the way we relate to the rest of the world. As an issue, abortion DIVIDES, and accomplishes little else. You might have to forgive the man for perhaps feeling we have bigger fish to fry at this point in time.

As far as being afraid to take a position, that's the biggest load of crap you could possibly drop... and I think you know it. Noone has had the courage Obama has displayed in terms of speaking frankly and directly, about race relations, no less - the big taboo that everyone shys away from. He has bigger 'balls' than anyone who has run for president in living memory.

Say something to prove you aren't a troll.

M.

We are a generation that--by virtue of our younger age--is less dyed in the wool of being lied to by politicians election after election to the point where if you tell us uncomfortable truths we can't take it. Old people would rather fall for it again for the umpteenth time, so they're more willing to sit back and vote for McCain/Clinton again.

We are a generation that--by virtue of our younger age--is less dyed in the wool of being lied to by politicians election after election to the point where if you tell us uncomfortable truths we can't take it. Old people would rather fall for it again for the umpteenth time, so they're more willing to sit back and vote for McCain/Clinton again.



Bullshit.

Bullshit.

Oooh, a most compelling argument you provide there TT.
I agree with LTG to a degree on this one. How can you blame older generations who have only experienced electoral periods of an America before 9/11 and its disasterous foreign policy aftermath, an America where candidates could sweet talk their way to the presidency by simply evoking the greatness of the nation and promising to pursue further greatness?

Obama is the first of his kind partly because of these times, times in which older generations have not yet adapted to but which have seen the younger generation come of age under.

Who can blame some of the older generation who do not have the flexibility to jump the rut of their old voting instincts - a lifetime created those instincts. The drastic change in America's position in the world calls for a change in the way we approach our politics, but it doesn't mean everyone is ready to hear and to heed that call. And it is self-evident that the slower to adapt to the new circumstances, by and large, will be those set in their political ways.
The politicians have not adapted fully either. Obama is the one who has adapted best, partly because he was more in tune with the new paradigm to begin with. That is partly why the younger generation sees him as our best bet.

M.

It is generational,it's also an issue of class.

I notice that Democrats/liberals from blue collar backgrounds [like myself] support Hillary [in part becasue she addresses our issues and Obama doesn't]and people from more priviledged backgrouds support Obama.

It's like when I was 12 and working class libs supported Bobby Kennedy and priviledged libs supported Eugene Mc Carthy.

If that were true, Hillary would be ahead. She isn't.

M

This is bullshit Malcolm.

He's only been in the Senate less than six years,he has a record of not showing up for votes or voting "present" and I call not taking a stand on full reproductive rights to be a cop out.

Name me one major piece of legislation he's been involved in?

And Hillary has won every one of the top Electorial College states [ except Illinois and the yet to be determined Florida,Michigan and Pennsylvania] that a Democrat needs to win the Electorial College.

He is gifted,he's a great orator,a pleasant personality,intelligent.

But he is not in the same league as George Mc Govern,Bobby Kennedy or [as one person here claims] Abe Lincoln,not even close.

If that were true, Hillary would be ahead. She isn't.

M


Except for Illinois, she has won everyone of the states where the blue collar working class does make up a signifcant voting block.

Plus, she has gotten the Latino vote which is mostly working class and she gets a lot of votes from working women.

No,she does not have the nomination sewn up,neither did Bobby Kennedy.

This is bullshit Malcolm.

He's only been in the Senate less than six years,he has a record of not showing up for votes or voting "present" and I call not taking a stand on full reproductive rights to be a cop out.

Name me one major piece of legislation he's been involved in?

And Hillary has won every one of the top Electorial College states [ except Illinois and the yet to be determined Florida,Michigan and Pennsylvania] that a Democrat needs to win the Electorial College.

He is gifted,he's a great orator,a pleasant personality,intelligent.

But he is not in the same league as George Mc Govern,Bobby Kennedy or [as one person here claims] Abe Lincoln,not even close.

I don't see you really addressing my last post... conversations work best when you speak AND LISTEN, and when speaking, demonstrate you have listened... Its common respect I am sure you would show me in real life, but on the internet people tend to lose sight of such things.

Anyway.

M.

I don't see you really addressing my last post...


You are wrong,I have addressed it.

I just haven't given you the answer you want me to give you and I won't do so because I don't agree with the answer you want me to give.

You are wrong,I have addressed it.

I just haven't given you the answer you want me to give you and I won't do so because I don't agree with the answer you want me to give.

Did you address the part about taking you to task for saying Obama doesn't have the balls to take controversial position?
I don't think you did.
I'm not looking for you to give me an answer I agree with: just any old answer will do. Thanks.

Also, perhaps you can address what I said about abortion nto being the most pressing situation we face right now, and the wisdom of not jeopardizing your chances on getting bogged in that controversy when your campaign focuses on the truly urgent matters. Its actually a smarter move than any of his competitors have made in this respect - and yet you claim he can't play the game. You're just unable to give him any credit whatsoever, TT, isn't that right?

M.

He's only been in the Senate less than six years,he has a record of not showing up for votes or voting "present"

Exactly. At least Hillary bothers to make a pretense of earning her lush bennies by actually showing up for work, occasionally, even if only for appearances sake.


Name me one major piece of legislation he's been involved in?

Being the Poster Boy for organized crime outfits like the Hamilton Group, he does make it a point to make the votes for the 'Globalism' labor racketeering rackets, stuff like CAFTA, just as Hillary does.

Frankly, I'm mystified by your support of her; politically there aren't any real differences in their platforms that matter much, and neither of them are any friends of working people, despite your claims to the contrary, and neither was her husband; well, unless you want to count voting for unfunded mandates as window dressing and really need to believe Robert Reich is a 'liberal' or something. I haven't seen any reason for blue collars to support Democrats; just because they trot out Kucinich every four years doesn't mean they really give a crap about them.

Did you address the part about taking you to task for saying Obama doesn't have the balls to take controversial position?

That is not a verbatim quote Malcom,you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

But while you're at it,name me one real controversial stand he's taken?



Also, perhaps you can address what I said about abortion nto being the most pressing situation we face right now


I disagree with you,keeping Roe V. Wade from being eroded is one of the major issues we face now.







Frankly, I'm mystified by your support of her; politically there aren't any real differences in their platforms that matter much,


And I support their platforms,I just think she's the better canidate in terms of experience and has a much better chance of winning Middle America which one needs to win the election.

I'll support whomever wins the Democratic nomination,he's just not my first choice and I think he'll have the hardest time against the Republicans,that doesn't make him bad,it just means he's not my first choice.


and neither of them are any friends of working people, despite your claims to the contrary, and neither was her husband; well, unless you want to count voting for unfunded mandates as window dressing and really need to believe Robert Reich is a 'liberal' or something. I haven't seen any reason for blue collars to support Democrats; just because they trot out Kucinich every four years doesn't mean they really give a crap about them.

Well,the blue collars in my blue collar state [which voted for Hillary in the double didgets] and myself do not share your Republican view.

I can't see how anybody with any kind of IQ can vote Republican.:shrug:

Well,the blue collars in my blue collar state [which voted for Hillary in the double didgets] and myself do not share your Republican view.

I'm not a Republican, not even close, and I also despise limousine liberal vermin like Bill Moyers and Ted Kennedy. I'm to the left of Maynard Keynes, economically, but, in any case ...

I can't see how anybody with any kind of IQ can vote Republican.

... neither can I ...