I've noticed that a few people here have alien or 'I want to believe' avatars. I just want to know your thoughts on the topic of aliens and UFOs.

Do you have any personal experiences you want to talk about, because I think all of this is very interesting.

I'll let you know what I think a little later.

I don't know if they exist or not. But if they do, they are smart enough not to contact us.

I don't know if I believe in them or not. If evolution is true there are most certainly an unfathomable number of life forms out in that black stuff.
If it isnt true, we could very well be all that there is.

I think the idea that aliens are visiting here is somewhat rediculous to me.

Doesn't mean they dont exist, but I dont think there is anything that would draw there attention to our planet in order to cause them to make the trip and see what we are up to.

Mostly harmless.

Originally posted by RightWingZealot
but I dont think there is anything that would draw there attention to our planet

"Daddy can I have a human pet? Pleeeeease?!"
:D

OK, so so far the consensus is "I don't know"... and you don't see much of a reason for them to visit us.

So what do you have to say about all the people who have claimed to be visited or 'abducted'?

(i'm not saying i believe in them, i'm just playing devil's advocate)

And where is CA and buggy?!

:)

I think there is life out there. Reason - why should we be so vain as to think we're the only ones? Beings not of this world MIGHT have been communicating, and may be communicating with us now.

Heyas Buttercup. :) Sorry, I was off work for a couple of days! So, I was out and about. Just got to work now, let me collect my thoughts and eat my salad and see what I can come up with as to why I am so fascinated by the subject. :)

Thanks for your input, Deninla. I do think that there is sufficient evidence that there is something out there other than us. But I'll get into my theory a little later.

Originally posted by buggy
Heyas Buttercup. :) Sorry, I was off work for a couple of days! So, I was out and about. Just got to work now, let me collect my thoughts and eat my salad and see what I can come up with as to why I am so fascinated by the subject. :)

Hey buggy! Good to 'see' you!

OK, sounds good. :)

Originally posted by buttercup
I've noticed that a few people here have alien or 'I want to believe' avatars. I just want to know your thoughts on the topic of aliens and UFOs.

Do you have any personal experiences you want to talk about, because I think all of this is very interesting.

I'll let you know what I think a little later.


Somebody gave me that custom title which I think needs to be changed to "I believe" :)

I've got a few strange stories of my own, but the stories I've read about from people all over the world and things our government keeps secret from us is what makes me a believer.

Through the freedom of information act you can see documents from the military and the government going all the back to WW2 that talk about UFO's and objects tracked on radar traveling at incredible speeds.

I know lots of people say things like they think there are Aliens out there somewhere but why would they want to come here??

I have one theory as to why they would come here, I think they could be Alien scientists of some sort just mapping out the life forms of the universe. Who knows? Maybe we are really interesting to somebody out there? If the Dinosaurs could think do you think they would have thought that millions of years after they died some other species would come digging up their bones and assembling them in museums and study them? Well I think maybe it's the same thing with certain Aliens. Maybe they are from a certain scientific reasearch team looking for other intelligent life out in the universe? Maybe they go to other planets where there might be life and those people wonder why they'd be interested in them just like we do?

I was at a little beach in Malibu a few months ago with Manu and we were talking about how many grains of sand were on this one half mile stretch. It's an incalculable amount. If I remember right there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on every beach on Earth. Now the odds of there being other intelligent life out there seems entirely likely.

If you have some specific questions just ask, this is my favorite topic:D

>So what do you have to say about all the people who have claimed to be visited or 'abducted'<


I think it is sleep paralysis.
My dad gets that. It can be quite freaky from what I understand.

>Beings not of this world MIGHT have been communicating, and may be communicating with us now.<

How would they even Know we are here?

I think, that if there ARE other forms of life out there, and theat they are intelligent they are probably sitting around discussing the possibilities of life on other planets just like we are now.

Originally posted by ChaoticThoughts


"Daddy can I have a human pet? Pleeeeease?!"
:D
In 3rd grade, me and Jimmy Whitaker tried to capture a mouse in the field next to the school. It went under a large section of concrete, and I lifted it up on one side to try to reach it, but it was too heavy, and it came down on the mouse. Killed it, squeezed it all out, pretty cool/gross for an 8 year old.

So, the next monday, at recess, me and a few other friends from class went to go look at the dead mouse, got all grossed out, had a laugh, then went back to the playground.

Back inside, a teacher had overheard some kids say they saw a dead mouse in the field that someone killed. The teacher stuck her head inside and asked, "DO Any of you know who killed a mouse outside?"

I swear I only took 3 guys with me, and when she asked this, every male in that class, about 14 of us, turned and pointed at me and shouted, "HE DID IT!!"

The point of this is, when taken out in the hall to be scolded for killing the mouse, I told the teacher I just wanted to capture it as a pet.

The teacher then said, "WHAT if a Space Alien came down here and captured YOU as a pet? Would you like that??"


The trauma of this scolding has scarred my soul...(sigh):topic:

Ugh! I lost my response.

Anyway, from a standpoint of biology and time, I am just really interested in life outside of our planet, even if it just pertains to simple bacteria.

The history of UFOs and aliens is incredibly amazing. You have petroglyphs depicting the classic shape of saucers descending on to earth, you have ancient carvings and pottery found by archeologists. I understand the concept of imagination, but it's astounding to me that this thought came to being simply out of pure boredom.

There is also recent sightings that are corroborated by many, many people at once, such as the 1991 sighting in Mexico.

The government is surely hiding something, and it very well could be test spacecrafts, in that no one is certain. After reading all the evidence at The Ufo Museum in Roswell, New Mexico - there is room open for ALOT of speculation. But no one can doubt that there is a conspiracy there. You have confirmed ex-military confirming the stories of the locals of what happened that night.

You also have the freedom of information act, which revealed, back in the early 80s, government documentation consisting of the existence of ufo technology.

The government could be feeding us what we want to hear, who knows what they are up to... but what do ancient drawings tell us when they depict these flying saucers?

Neat stuff. I love it. A great mystery.

Cristina-

I'd also like to add, the skeptic in me wonders about some of the claims in sightings due to the fact we have telescopes watching parts of the sky out there, we also have arrays listening to the sky. How do these crafts escape these monitoring means? Do they escape them? Is the evidence hidden away?

There is also the fact that we may be sending out radio signals to communicate with other lifeforms, what makes us think that is how they communicate? Could they be that advanced or are they more advanced?

Thanks CA.... I would have to hear your personal stories, and see the evidence you have to see what is so convincing to you. I definitely believe there is something else out there, there have been way too many sightings and personal experiences to just dismiss.

But before I actually believe there is life on other planets, I'd have to see some compelling evidence, and I haven't seen that yet.

I do have a question for you. If, as people say, these aliens have abducted people (which is actually kidnapping), and done other bad things..... then why does it seem like so many people want so badly for it to be true, and even want to be abducted?

buggy - that's very interesting about the ancient drawings of UFOs, and all the history. I also believe the government is hiding something, there is no doubt in my mind.

OK, here's what I think. I do believe that the 'beings' and some of the UFOs that so many people have reported seeing are real, but I don't believe they are from other planets.

There is enough evidence that non-human beings have visited us... the question is what/who are they?

I will say that if at some point there is convincing evidence that these 'aliens' are actually from other planets, then I will change my mind on this (of course).

CA and buggy, I'm sure you've heard my theory, but although it differs from your view, try to keep an open mind. Also, this will probably sound crazy to some people, but let's all try to keep an open mind.

I think most of these 'aliens' that people have reported seeing are actually 'fallen angels', or demons.

I told some of you about a documentary film that I worked on in '99. My friend Anna interviewed several really interesting people, and one of them was Chuck Missler (Naval Acad. grad., former Branch Chief of the Dept. of Guided Missiles) In his interview, he talked about the subject of aliens, and what he said was very interesting. He talked about a few of the foremost UFO/alien researchers, who have admitted that these beings are hyperdimensional, not extra-terrestrial.

According to the Bible, fallen angels are able to manifest themselves into different forms... and many people believe that these demons(that sometimes appear as lizard like creatures) are actually deceiving people into thinking they are from other planets.

Also, apparently UFOs seem to be sighted a lot in Israel. Why is that?

I am also fascinated by this topic, and I want to learn more about it. I'll stop here for now, and let you all add your comments!

Originally posted by buttercup
According to the Bible, fallen angels are able to manifest themselves into different forms...

Interesting point because the millions of angels and the one third who fell away who became demons existed possibly millions of years before humanoids and even before the creation of the universe before any physical matter existed at all. Is it possible the planets occupied by angels at one time before the rebellion for the purpose of creating and improving them? Are the apparent wastelands of Mars for example a result of something bad that happened in the past and was the humanoid creation on earth an effort by the Creator to try again only this time with people instead of angels? There are therefore angels around, but I don't know if there is evidence of their distinct physical manifestations separate from the usual life forms we see.

Bible references seem to be demons taking possession of humanoids or other physical creatures such as the herd of swine (Matt 8:30) so they seem invisible to the naked eye but are visible on a spiritual plane. And of course Satan appears in the form of the serpent and red dragon

Matt 4 is interesting as Satan offers Jesus the kingdoms of the world if he worships him. It is unclear if the entity in that chapter is pure spirit or has a physical manifestation of some kind. In addition to other passages, we can conclude that Satan influences the governments of the earth through the dimension of spirit and mind. And of course, cooperating with Satan are the one third of the millions of angels who were enticed by Satan's jealousy and greed.

Mixed feelings.

Skeptic side:

Flying saucers as we know it are human in origin. I have seen plans, prototypes, and more. The occurance of documented UFO sightings prior to WWII were rare and almost non-existant.

The Nazis were working on flying saucer designs (as were Lockheed, Avco, and some others), and were supposedly working on cracking the anti-gravity barrier based upon some of the conclusions developed by Nikoli Tesla. Rumor has it that the allies captured the materials and moved it to an area in New Mexico.

So far there has been a total lack of evidence that we are being actively visited, and pretty much all of the stories that have come out one way or another have proven to be bogus.

Another thing... and this I think is rather interesting. One book I was reading listed the names of a couple of hundred people who have made claims about sightings, being abducted, or supposedly some other connection to UFOS ALSO were heavily involved with spiritualism... seances, tarot cards, witchcraft, etc.

What does that mean? Overactive imaginations? Spiritual activity? Demonic influences? Unknown exactly what, but there is a connection. I tend to believe the last two as I have personally been involved in the occult/paranormal myself, and I have seen some STRANGE things in my life.

Believer side:

Mars... After reading the works of Graham Hancock, I do know that there was an advanced human civilization at some point in our history, one capable of space travel.

Quantum Physics... Hard to go into here.

Aliens themselves... If one thinks about it, a species capable of interstellar travel is way advanced of us technologically. If we have enough problems dealing with mysteries like bigfoot, D.B. Cooper, or even stealth aircraft, it would seem that such a species would have an easy time of being able to observe us without being seen.

Finally, one of my old A&P professors said a few things that made me wonder. He was an officer in the Air Force, and was involved in some top secret projects. This is/was not a man prone to making things up. If anyone ever had a chance to meet him, they would know why I say that. At any rate, he drew a connection between UFO activity and nuclear weapons tests. He indicated that there is something behind all these rumors.

Other factors:

Likelihood of intelligent life... When you eliminate all the stars incapable of sustaining life for some reason or another, such as the blue stars, giant stars, dwarfs, red stars, etc. plus the general breakdown of stars in our galaxy, the amount of stars capable of sustaining life suddenly become few and far between. Then start eliminating planets with ellipse orbits, hostile atmpospheres, etc, and suddenly the chances of a given star containing life is suddenly looking like one in a million. Given that Humans have only been here as a blip on the screen from the standpoint of time, maybe the same is true with other species. The question then is the possibilities of meeting up with another species in our time that would be similar enough to us to even be able to communicate. Even then, what about intelligent species that do something like blow themselves up in a nuclear war?

I would say that we are up to a billion to one by now.

Yeah, I have heard it rationalized like that before. As a matter of a fact, these guys http://www.alienresistance.org/ are right across the street from the UFO Museum in Roswell.

It is a hard concept for me to grasp because I think of life outside of biblical terms.

I will continue to look on the web to read more about it.

Oh yeah, the Alien Resistance folks were odd. :D

Cristina-

Originally posted by RightWingZealot
>So what do you have to say about all the people who have claimed to be visited or 'abducted'<


I think it is sleep paralysis.
My dad gets that. It can be quite freaky from what I understand.


I'm glad you brought that up. There does seem to be a strong similarity between so-called 'abductions' or visits from aliens, and demonic experiences and strange sleep phenomenons, like paralysis, levitation, etc.

In fact, I have personally experienced some really strange things (including sleep paralysis) that I don't even want to talk about here. (It just sounds too crazy) At the time I had no idea what it was, but now I know.



Originally posted by Snouter


Interesting point because the millions of angels and the one third who fell away who became demons existed possibly millions of years before humanoids and even before the creation of the universe before any physical matter existed at all. Is it possible the planets occupied by angels at one time before the rebellion for the purpose of creating and improving them? Are the apparent wastelands of Mars for example a result of something bad that happened in the past and was the humanoid creation on earth an effort by the Creator to try again only this time with people instead of angels? There are therefore angels around, but I don't know if there is evidence of their distinct physical manifestations separate from the usual life forms we see.

Bible references seem to be demons taking possession of humanoids or other physical creatures such as the herd of swine (Matt 8:30) so they seem invisible to the naked eye but are visible on a spiritual plane. And of course Satan appears in the form of the serpent and red dragon

Matt 4 is interesting as Satan offers Jesus the kingdoms of the world if he worships him. It is unclear if the entity in that chapter is pure spirit or has a physical manifestation of some kind. In addition to other passages, we can conclude that Satan influences the governments of the earth through the dimension of spirit and mind. And of course, cooperating with Satan are the one third of the millions of angels who were enticed by Satan's jealousy and greed.


Good questions. Also, the last thing you said is so true. satan is (currently) the 'god' of this world, and influences governments, etc. And I do think there is a big deception going on right now, and the whole UFO/alien thing is part of it.

Originally posted by Turbostang
Mixed feelings.

Skeptic side:

Flying saucers as we know it are human in origin. I have seen plans, prototypes, and more. The occurance of documented UFO sightings prior to WWII were rare and almost non-existant.

The Nazis were working on flying saucer designs (as were Lockheed, Avco, and some others), and were supposedly working on cracking the anti-gravity barrier based upon some of the conclusions developed by Nikoli Tesla. Rumor has it that the allies captured the materials and moved it to an area in New Mexico.


Yeah, its possible that many of the UFOs people have reported seeing are actually government crafts.



So far there has been a total lack of evidence that we are being actively visited, and pretty much all of the stories that have come out one way or another have proven to be bogus.

Well, UFOs have been seen, but I agree that there is a lack of concrete evidence that they are from other planets.


Another thing... and this I think is rather interesting. One book I was reading listed the names of a couple of hundred people who have made claims about sightings, being abducted, or supposedly some other connection to UFOS ALSO were heavily involved with spiritualism... seances, tarot cards, witchcraft, etc.

What does that mean? Overactive imaginations? Spiritual activity? Demonic influences? Unknown exactly what, but there is a connection. I tend to believe the last two as I have personally been involved in the occult/paranormal myself, and I have seen some STRANGE things in my life.


Very good point. As I said before, there is a connection between UFOs/alien abductions and paganism/occult, etc.


Believer side:

Mars... After reading the works of Graham Hancock, I do know that there was an advanced human civilization at some point in our history, one capable of space travel.

Quantum Physics... Hard to go into here.

Aliens themselves... If one thinks about it, a species capable of interstellar travel is way advanced of us technologically. If we have enough problems dealing with mysteries like bigfoot, D.B. Cooper, or even stealth aircraft, it would seem that such a species would have an easy time of being able to observe us without being seen.

Finally, one of my old A&P professors said a few things that made me wonder. He was an officer in the Air Force, and was involved in some top secret projects. This is/was not a man prone to making things up. If anyone ever had a chance to meet him, they would know why I say that. At any rate, he drew a connection between UFO activity and nuclear weapons tests. He indicated that there is something behind all these rumors.

Other factors:

Likelihood of intelligent life... When you eliminate all the stars incapable of sustaining life for some reason or another, such as the blue stars, giant stars, dwarfs, red stars, etc. plus the general breakdown of stars in our galaxy, the amount of stars capable of sustaining life suddenly become few and far between. Then start eliminating planets with ellipse orbits, hostile atmpospheres, etc, and suddenly the chances of a given star containing life is suddenly looking like one in a million. Given that Humans have only been here as a blip on the screen from the standpoint of time, maybe the same is true with other species. The question then is the possibilities of meeting up with another species in our time that would be similar enough to us to even be able to communicate. Even then, what about intelligent species that do something like blow themselves up in a nuclear war?

I would say that we are up to a billion to one by now.

Hmmm.... you brought up a lot of interesting points. I've never heard about that advanced human civilization capable of space travel.

btw, another thing that is strange is this. If these aliens are so much more technologically advanced than us (they'd have to be to be able to travel here), then why do so many of the abductees tell tales of 'medical experiments' that sound so clumsy and backwards? (Like sticking a long needle into someone's eye, etc )

buggy, thanks for that link! I'll take a look.

Good site>> http://www.disclosureproject.org/

>I think most of these 'aliens' that people have reported seeing are actually 'fallen angels', or demons. <


I have heard this theory as well. It is intersting. I have also hear it theorized that the reason fo this "demonic activity" is to get the people on this planet believing in alien abduction so that when the rapture occures it can be written off as a mass alien abduction.

There's other life in the universe. Odds are on it the way I see it.

I don't think that they've visited us in the last hundred years if they have come at all though.

Keep in mind that it has only been the last 100 years that we've actually been interconnected enough as a planet that we would've found out about a visit to a place like South America or Africa.

That leaves a couple billion years of time that they could've evolved and visited us.

Depending on the environment that they came from we know nothing about what their goals would be, or what their intentions are, if they even have developed consciousness.

But I think it's arrogant to assume that they're going to look anything like us, or think anything like we do.

We've had two major extinctions in our time that've produced us, and we're just a blip on the map of life on the planet. They may be their planet's equivalent of dinosaurs if they have been more sheltered, or just simplest life if they haven't been sheltered enough.

I'd love to find out about other life in our universe, but at the level of technology we're at, I think they're gonn have to come to us for any of us alive now to ever meet them.

Justin

>Keep in mind that it has only been the last 100 years that we've actually been interconnected enough as a planet that we would've found out about a visit to a place like South America or Africa.

That leaves a couple billion years of time that they could've evolved and visited us. <


I would still like to know why

1) people believe they would be any more technologicaly or intellectualy advanced than we are. Chances are if there is life out there they are jsut asa backwards and messed up as we are.

2) why they would ever bother visting us.

3) how they would even know we are here. We have done nothing to attract thier attention and there is no way our radio signals could have traveled far enough for them to have heard our "chatter"

Originally posted by RightWingZealot

I have heard this theory as well. It is intersting. I have also hear it theorized that the reason fo this "demonic activity" is to get the people on this planet believing in alien abduction so that when the rapture occures it can be written off as a mass alien abduction.

I've heard that too. Also, a lot of people believe (as tin-foil as this sounds) that the reason for this is the mother of all conspiracies....to justify a one-world government, or NWO. (the alien 'threat' would bring the world together, as 'one') :D

Originally posted by buttercup


I've heard that too. Also, a lot of people believe (as tin-foil as this sounds) that the reason for this is the mother of all conspiracies....to justify a one-world government, or NWO. (the alien 'threat' would bring the world together, as 'one') :D

Oh and I have something great to post about that one, I gotta go though. Later...

I don't believe. I'm just strange, not an ALIEN!:o

OK, here's where it gets even more freaky......

Some people believe that these aliens/demons are attempting to create a hybrid.

Dr. John Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist is a researcher of aliens/abductions, and apparently he shocked the academic world when he came out with his theory that not only are these 'abductions' real, but these aliens are trying to create a hybrid by conducting sexual experiments on humans.

This is not some kook, this is a respected professor, who has a lot of accomplishments under his belt, including a Pulitzer Prize in his background.

I guess his 'theory' didn't go over well with a lot of people.....but anyway, I just wanted to add that to the mix. :D

Originally posted by buttercup
OK, here's where it gets even more freaky......

Some people believe that these aliens/demons are attempting to create a hybrid.

Dr. John Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist is a researcher of aliens/abductions, and apparently he shocked the academic world when he came out with his theory that not only are these 'abductions' real, but these aliens are trying to create a hybrid by conducting sexual experiments on humans.

This is not some kook, this is a respected professor, who has a lot of accomplishments under his belt, including a Pulitzer Prize in his background.

I guess his 'theory' didn't go over well with a lot of people.....but anyway, I just wanted to add that to the mix. :D

I'm listening to an interview with him done by Art Bell. Supposedly he went on Larry King and was laughed at by King...

Got it here in case anyone is interested - http://www.centerchange.org/passport/

fun fact- if someone says they have been visited by angels, they had a spiritual experience. It they met aliens, they are nuts.

Originally posted by buttercup
OK, here's where it gets even more freaky......

Some people believe that these aliens/demons are attempting to create a hybrid.

Dr. John Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist is a researcher of aliens/abductions, and apparently he shocked the academic world when he came out with his theory that not only are these 'abductions' real, but these aliens are trying to create a hybrid by conducting sexual experiments on humans.

This is not some kook, this is a respected professor, who has a lot of accomplishments under his belt, including a Pulitzer Prize in his background.

I guess his 'theory' didn't go over well with a lot of people.....but anyway, I just wanted to add that to the mix. :D
Interesting yu should say that. In the Book of Genesis, that is exactly what some people think the Bible is saying here:

Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Here's some Old thinking, going way back into Jewish Theology, people believe that Demons somehow mated with women, creating children that are spoken of here!

Strange, now that you mention this, people like Whitley Striber have for 2 decades now been saying this! And until you made this post, I never made any connection!

But, that is true, I will look for a commentary on Genesis online that would have this in detail, Henry Morris's book "The GENESIS Record" has a section on this, let me take a gander...

Originally posted by ChaoticThoughts
fun fact- if someone says they have been visited by angels, they had a spiritual experience. It they met aliens, they are nuts.
I'd think they were both crazy. If they were able to prove they were visited at all, though, I woud say it is a fallen angel, a Demon, fooling them. I dont think aliens are real, I think we are all there is.

Originally posted by buttercup
OK, here's where it gets even more freaky......

Some people believe that these aliens/demons are attempting to create a hybrid.

Dr. John Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist is a researcher of aliens/abductions, and apparently he shocked the academic world when he came out with his theory that not only are these 'abductions' real, but these aliens are trying to create a hybrid by conducting sexual experiments on humans.

This is not some kook, this is a respected professor, who has a lot of accomplishments under his belt, including a Pulitzer Prize in his background.

I guess his 'theory' didn't go over well with a lot of people.....but anyway, I just wanted to add that to the mix. :D
WHO ARE THE NEPHILIM?

The "Sons of Seth" Theory

The early rabbis and church fathers never considered that Genesis 6:4 refers to a failure to keep the "faithful" lines of the godly Seth from mingling with the worldly line of Cain. The "bene ha Elohim" (sons of God) also never refer to men in the Old Testament, only angels.

In the 5th century A.D., such great church men as Augustine embraced the so-called "Sethite theory" and thus it prevailed through the Middle Ages into today. Unfortunately, there are many otherwise outstanding Bible teachers who still hold it.

There are many problems with this view:

1. The ancient rabbinical sources and the Septuagint translators in the 3rd century B.C. went with a clear understanding of the Hebrew text. Moses, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, clearly establishes a contrast between the "nephilim" (fallen ones, i.e. angels) and the "benoth ha Adam"(daughters of men, i.e. earth women).

This is further confirmed in Luke's genealogical line of Jesus where only Adam is called a "son of God." And we church-agers know that Christ uniquely gives them that receive Him the power to become these "sons of God" as entirely new creations (1John3:1). The term "oiketerion" in 2 Corinthians 5:2 and Jude 1:6 literally alludes to the heavenly body with which the believer will be clothed and it is the precise term for the heavenly bodies from which the fallen angels had disrobed.

2. The "daughters of Adam" phrase also does not limit itself to the descendants of Cain, but rather the whole human race. These were daughters born to the men who "began to multiply on the face of the earth (Genesis 6:1). It is clear from the text that these daughters were not limited a particular family line.

3. The notion of separate "lines" itself flies in the face of Scriptural revelation. National distinctions were planned by God as outlined in Genesis 11. There is no theological reason for the lines of Seth and Cain to keep themselves separate nor were they commanded thus at that point in human history.

4. Only eight unblemished (without "tamiym") individuals were given the protection of the ark. No one beyond Noah's ("perfect in his generation") family was accounted worthy to be saved. The son of Seth himself was Enosh, meaning "frail mortal." The KJV says that in his time men began to "call on the Name of the Lord." A more literal rendering of the Hebrew implies men "profaning" the Name. So much for the godly line trying to remain pure and blemish-free. And, after all, they, too, were wiped out in the Flood.

5. The most fatal flaw in the "Sethite" view is the Nephilim themselves whose unnatural offspring seem to be a primary cause for God's rather drastic judgment. Procreation by parents of different religious views do not produce unnatural offspring of this caliber. We must assume that the abnormal creatures that were designated "mighty" and "men of reknown" had a great deal to do with the fact that God "repenteth" of His creation!

The New Testament confirms this:

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (2 Peter 2:4-5).

Here Peter even establishes the time of the fall of these angels to the days of the Flood. Even the term Tartarus for "hell" gives a clue. This is the only place that this Greek term appears in the Bible. Tartarus is a Greek term which was used in Homer's Iliad to signify a region "as far beneath Hades as the earth is below heaven."

Jude 6 and 7 further comments:

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The allusions match those of Genesis 6 and are disruptive to the "Sethite" theory.

Final thought - if the implied physical sexual intercourse between the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" were merely a mixed marriage between earthlings, why are certain fallen angels imprisoned forever while others remain free to roam the universe

I'll answer the last question he has here. Only certain angels engaged in these acts, not all of them. If all of them engaged in these acts with men, they would all be in that prison spoken of.

THOUSANDS OF DEMONS INFEST EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE

Today the public in general have lost all confidence that the Word of God is telling us the truth on this subject regarding Satan and the Fallen Angels, or, as the Apostle Paul puts it, "wicked spirits in heavenly places."--See Ephesians 6:12, margin.

And what has been the result? People have lowered their guard against Spiritism, Occultism, and evil influences in general. They have allowed their curiosity to lead them to investigate such subjects as Astrology, U.F.O.s, Aliens, Psychic Readers, Hypnotism, Magic, Wicca, Ouija boards, so-called "games" such as "Dungeons and Dragons, etc. Others seek out more "sophisticated" (?) sources of enlightenment and empowerment over self and others. For example, the New Age movement is very popular among the elite, and people turned off by Churchianity. Today "channelers" have replaced spirit mediums of old and "channelers' weekend retreats" have replaced "spiritualistic seances."

The end result is the same however; they think they are communicating with dead humans, when actually they are being deceived by demons, fallen angels, who impersonate the dead.

Other ways that the demons have found expression in society is through abject and obscene use of horror, violence, sex, and materialism through the various electronic and print media of television, radio, videos, billboards, movie theaters, computer software, 900 telephone numbers, magazines, newspapers, music, pulp novels, and soon, "virtual reality" technology. Yes, sadly enough, Hollywood, Madison Avenue, and the Entertainment Industry, driven by profits (greed) have mostly left morality, decency, and anything akin to reverence, swirling in the dust of the ever accelerating drive for sensual gratification.

But, are we surprised? Not when we view the situation from the Word of God. Paul tells us that Satan is the god (ruler) of this world (Acts 26:17, 18; 2 Corinthians 4:4) and has blinded the minds of the people. Some serve Satan directly, but the vast majority indirectly, unwittingly, because they are mentally blinded as to the real state of affairs. Elsewhere, Paul declares it would become worse in the last days, here is how he describes it: "This know also, there will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God."--2 Timothy 3:1-4, New International Version.

Some say history repeats itself. Well, in this case, that is very close to the truth. In fact, Jesus tells us as much: "And as it was in the days of Noe (Noah) so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man (Jesus returned). They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe (Noah) entered into the Ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all...even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17:26,27,30) Let us learn from history. What did happen in the days of Noah?

In Genesis, the sixth chapter, we read of the conditions of that time. "And it came to pass, when men (humans) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the Sons of God (angels--Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Note: they are different from the men of verses 1 and 2) saw the daughters of men, that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose." (Genesis 6:1,2) Here we learn that during the time from the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, until Noah's flood, some of the angels materialized fleshly human bodies and became fully involved with mankind. They became enticed with sin, and sinful desires.

"There were giants (Hebrew: Nephilim) in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the Sons of God (angels) came unto the daughters of men (humans) and they bare children to them (a hybrid, mutant race, part human, part angelic) the mutant offspring were giants, physically and mentally superior to humans, yet they were brutish, sensual, violent and immoral, and they were all males. It is likely that the various mythological figures of some ancient cultures are distorted stories of these very Nephilim, and the condition of society prior to the great deluge,which destroyed them all.

Verses 5-7 and 11-13 relate to us that the earth was filled with violence and corruption continually, the superiority of the fallen angels in fleshly bodies with their mutant offspring magnified and intensified the degraded condition of the fallen human race. God intervened by causing the deluge of water upon the earth that destroyed all living creatures except Noah and his family. At that point in time, the fallen angels de-materialized into the earth's atmosphere, and their offspring were left to drown, thus ending in miserable failure a tragic experiment at government by the angels.

It is the New Testament that informs us what happened to the fallen angels. Please consider Jude, verses 6 and 7: "and the angels which kept not their first estate (spiritual, invisible bodies), but left their own habitation (the air, or the spirit realm, dimension), he hath reserved in everlasting (age-lasting) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." These angels that left or fell from their God ordained domain, to sinfully become involved with mankind, were compelled to return to their "first estate," spirit bodies, by the flood waters, and then God enforced a restriction upon them from manifesting flesh bodies (the chains of darkness) until the great judgment day of our Lord (a one thousand year "day"--2 Peter 3:8-13). Furthermore, verse 7 explains the conduct of the fallen angels which brought about such condemnation: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh." Notice the phrase in like manner. That is, the fallen angels and the inhabitants of Sodom had something in common: they both fornicated with strange flesh. With the Sodomites it was strange in that they were homosexuals. (Genesis 19:1-11; Romans 1:26-32). With the fallen angels it was strange or unnatural for spirit beings to have sexual liaisons with human beings, and particularly strange because angels have no sex when in their proper spirit nature.--Luke 20:34-36.

We learn of a further restriction upon these fallen angels through the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 2:4,5: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness..." The Word translated into English "hell" is in the original Greek language "tartaroo" and only appears here in the New Testament. It denotes an act, not a place, and it refers to God's confining these disobedient "sons" to earth's atmosphere, no longer allowed to return to the heavenly courts of the Almighty. These are the "spirits in prison" to whom Jesus preached at his first advent.--1 Peter 3:18-20.

Now we can understand many Scriptures better than before. For example, some people were possessed of demons. Jesus cured many of these. (Matthew 4:24; 8:16, 28-32; 9:32-35; 12:22-29) Since the flood, these imprisoned demons have had to operate through humans to exercise their evil influence. Other people have been under the influence of evil thoughts, like Judas Iscariot (John 13:2,27), Ananias (Acts 5:3), Elymas the sorcerer (Acts 13:8-10), some Pharisees (John 8:44), and even some christians. (1 Timothy 5:14,15) And many have been deceived into believing false doctrines.--1 Timothy 4:1-4; 1 Corinthians 10:20,21; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.

THOUSANDS OF DEMONS INVADE THE ATMOSPHERE (http://www.biblestudents.org/absco/subjects/emat005.htm)

Originally posted by Banky
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (2 Peter 2:4-5).

Here Peter even establishes the time of the fall of these angels to the days of the Flood...


I think that conclusion is misunderstanding the verse. In 2 Peter 2:4, the reference to angels that sinned in no way implies it occurred at the time of Noah. Peter is merely listing several major Divine judgements in history which are stated with some variation in Jude 1:6

I think it is pretty clear that the Bible indicates Satan had overthrown the government of God with the fallen angels on earth long before humans were created. And humans were actually created as an effort to overcome the effects of the fallen angels (see 1 John 3:8). Verse 2 in Genesis describes a condition resulting from the sin of the angels. The events described may have occurred millions of years after the original creation of the earth.

Keep in mind angels are immortal and the two thirds of all angels created have not sinned and are not bound, but exist freely and with interest in human events as Jesus points out in Matt 24:36. Luke 15:10, and is indicated in 1 Peter 1:12 as some of the numberous examples throughout the Bible. An angel manifested himself physically to the two Mary's at the tomb of Jesus and rolled back the stone from the door.

I totally believe...


but with the fact that we can't stop killing ourselves.....who would want to visit us anyway:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Banky
I'd think they were both crazy. If they were able to prove they were visited at all, though, I woud say it is a fallen angel, a Demon, fooling them. I dont think aliens are real, I think we are all there is.

you are one of the crazy people. you believe in fallen angels, that trick people.

living in fantasy must be great.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Snouter


I think that conclusion is misunderstanding the verse. In 2 Peter 2:4, the reference to angels that sinned in no way implies it occurred at the time of Noah. Peter is merely listing several major Divine judgements in history which are stated with some variation in Jude 1:6

I think it is pretty clear that the Bible indicates Satan had overthrown the government of God with the fallen angels on earth long before humans were created. And humans were actually created as an effort to overcome the effects of the fallen angels (see 1 John 3:8). Verse 2 in Genesis describes a condition resulting from the sin of the angels. The events described may have occurred millions of years after the original creation of the earth.



Snouter, so what do you think about Genesis 6? I'm not sure if I agree with the 'sons of Seth' theory.... because if those first few verses in Genesis 6 were only talking about the line of Seth mixing with the line of Cain, would that be something so wrong that would make God cause a judgement as drastic as the flood?

If the 'sons of God' mixing with the 'daughters of men' was referring to angelic beings (fallen angels), then that would make more sense. I'm going to c&p some comments on this that I found at www.blueletterbible.com (this is just one man's view on it... not everyone agrees with this)

Why? Why would Satan send his angels to intermarry (either directly or indirectly) with human women? Satan was trying to pollute the genetic "pool" of mankind with a satanic corruption; to put a genetic "virus" that would make the human race unfit for bringing forth the Seed of the woman - the Messiah - promised in Genesis 3:15


And then that would also fit with Matthew 24:37 -

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

If its true that aliens (fallen angels) are actually mixing with humans right now (as crazy as that sounds).... then do you know what that means? :eek:

That's why this stuff is so fascinating!

Originally posted by Snouter


I think that conclusion is misunderstanding the verse. In 2 Peter 2:4, the reference to angels that sinned in no way implies it occurred at the time of Noah. Peter is merely listing several major Divine judgements in history which are stated with some variation in Jude 1:6

I think it is pretty clear that the Bible indicates Satan had overthrown the government of God with the fallen angels on earth long before humans were created. And humans were actually created as an effort to overcome the effects of the fallen angels (see 1 John 3:8). Verse 2 in Genesis describes a condition resulting from the sin of the angels. The events described may have occurred millions of years after the original creation of the earth.

Keep in mind angels are immortal and the two thirds of all angels created have not sinned and are not bound, but exist freely and with interest in human events as Jesus points out in Matt 24:36. Luke 15:10, and is indicated in 1 Peter 1:12 as some of the numberous examples throughout the Bible. An angel manifested himself physically to the two Mary's at the tomb of Jesus and rolled back the stone from the door.
Actually, when you look at Genesis 1, right after Creation is completed, do you remember what God said?

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Everything means every thing. That means that what God created, was still good and there was no corruption. To introduce a period of millions of years with death and destruction, which is nowhere taught in the Bible, is wrong. Please note that what you said has to be added, there is no verse to state that dinosaurs came and went before man, for the Bible says that ALL creatures that were created were alive at the end of day 6 of creation.

you are one of the crazy people. you believe in fallen angels, that trick people.

living in fantasy must be great.

That is not exactly what I call a constructive response.

Originally posted by buttercup


I've heard that too. Also, a lot of people believe (as tin-foil as this sounds) that the reason for this is the mother of all conspiracies....to justify a one-world government, or NWO. (the alien 'threat' would bring the world together, as 'one') :D


COSMIC DECEPTION: LET THE CITIZEN BEWARE


Imagine this. It is the summer of 2001, and someone presents you with a script for a movie or book that tells how a diabolical terrorist plot unfolds wherein both 110 story World Trade Center towers and part of the Pentagon are destroyed by commercial jets hijacked and flown into those structures.

Of course you would laugh, and if you were a movie mogul or book editor, reject it out of hand as ridiculous and implausible, even for a fictional novel or movie. After all, how could a commercial jet, being tracked on radar after two jets had already hit the World Trade towers, make it through our air defenses, into the most sensitive airspace in the world, and in broad daylight on a crystal clear day, slam into the Pentagon! And this in a country that spends over $1 billion a day to defend itself! Absurd, illogical - nobody would swallow it!

Unfortunately, there are some of us who have seen these scripts - and of far worse things to come - and we are not laughing.

One of the few silver linings to these recent tragedies is that maybe - just maybe - people will take seriously, however far-fetched it may seem at first, the prospect that a shadowy, para-governmental and transnational entity exists that has kept UFOs secret - and is planning a deception and tragedy that will dwarf the events of 9/11.

The testimony of hundreds of government, military and corporate insiders has established this: That UFOs are real, that some are built by our secret 'black' shadowy government projects and some are from extraterrestrial civilizations, and that a group has kept this secret so that the technology behind the UFO can be withheld - until the right time. This technology can - and eventually will - replace the need for oil, gas, coal, ionizing nuclear power, and other centralized and highly destructive energy systems.

This 5 trillion dollar industry - energy and transportation - is currently highly centralized, metered and lucrative. It is the stuff that runs the entire industrialized world. It is the mother of all special interests. It is not about money as you and I think of it, but about geo-political power - the very centralized power on which the current order in the world runs. The world is kept in a state of roiling wars, endless poverty for most of Earth's denizens and global environmental ruin, just to prop up this evil world order.

As immense as that game is, there is a bigger one: Control through fear. As Wernher von Braun related to Dr. Carol Rosin, his spokesperson for the last 4 years of his life, a maniacal machine - the military, industrial, intelligence, laboratory complex - would go from Cold War, to Rogue Nations, to Global Terrorism (the stage we find ourselves at today), to the ultimate trump card: A hoaxed threat from space.

To justify eventually spending trillions of dollars on space weapons, the world would be deceived about a threat from outer space, thus uniting the world in fear, in militarism, and in war.

Since 1992 I have seen this script unveiled to me by at least a dozen well-placed insiders. Of course, initially I laughed, thinking this just too absurd and far-fetched. Dr. Rosin gave her testimony to the Disclosure Project before 9/11. And yet others told me explicitly that things that looked like UFOs but that are built and under the control of deeply secretive 'black' projects, were being used to simulate - hoax - ET-appearing events, including some abductions and cattle mutilations, to sow the early seeds of cultural fear regarding life in outer space. And that at some point after global terrorism, events would unfold that would utilize the now-revealed Alien Reproduction Vehicles (ARVs, or reversed-engineered UFOs made by humans by studying actual ET craft - see the book "Disclosure" by the same author) to hoax an attack on Earth.

Like the movie "Independence Day", an attempt to unite the world through militarism would unfold using ET as the new cosmic scapegoat (think Jews during the Third Reich).

None of this is new to me or other insiders. The report from Iron Mountain, NY, written in the 1960s, described the need to demonize life in outer space so we could have a new enemy. An enemy off-planet that could unite humans (in fear and war) and that would prove to be the ultimate prop for the trillion dollar military industrial complex that conservative Republican President and five star general Eisenhower warned us about in 1961 (no one was listening then, either...).

So here is the post-9/11 script - one that will be played out unless enough people are informed and the plan can be foiled because they will be unable to fool a sufficient number of citizens and leaders:

After a period of terrorism - a period during which the detonation of nuclear devices will be threatened and possibly actuated, thus justifying expanding the weaponization of space - an effort will ramp up to present the public with information about a threat from outer space. Not just asteroids hitting the Earth, but other threats. An extraterrestrial threat.

Over the past 40 years, UFOlogy, as it is called, combined with a mighty media machine, has increasingly demonized ETs via fearsome movies like "Independence Day", and pseudo-science that presents alien kidnappings and abuse as a fact (in some circles) of modern life. That some humans have had contact with ETs I have no doubt; that the real ET contact has been subsumed in an ocean of hoaxed accounts I am certain.

That is, real ET events are seldom reported out to the public. The Machine ensures that the hoaxed, frightening and intrinsically xenophobic accounts are the ones seen and read by millions. This mental conditioning to fear ET has been subtly reinforced for decades, in preparation for future deceptions. Deceptions that will make 9/11 look trivial.

I write this now because I have recently been contacted by several highly placed media and intelligence sources that have made it clear to me that hoaxed events and story-lines are imminent that will attempt to further ramp up the fear machine regarding UFOs and ETs. After all, to have an enemy, you must make the people hate and fear a person, a group of people, or in this case an entire category of beings.

To be clear: the maniacal covert programs controlling UFO secrecy, ARVs and related technologies - including those technologies that can simulate ET events, ET abductions and the like - plan to hijack Disclosure, spin it into the fire of fear, and roll out events that will eventually present ETs as a new enemy. Do not be deceived.

This hogwash, already the stuff of countless books, videos, movies, documentaries and the like, will attempt to glom onto the facts, evidence and first-hand insider testimony of The Disclosure Project, and on its coattails, deliver to the world the cosmic deception that falsely portrays ETs as a threat from space. Do not be deceived.

By commingling fact with fiction, and by hoaxing UFO events that can look terrifying, the Plan is to eventually create a new, sustainable, off-planet enemy. And who will be the wiser?

You will. Because now you know that after 60 years, trillions of dollars and the best scientific minds in the world pressed into action, a secretive, shadowy group - a government within the government and at once fully outside the government as we know it - has mastered the technologies, the art of deception, and the capability to launch an attack on Earth and make it look like ETs did it. In 1997, I brought a man to Washington to brief members of Congress and others about this plan. Our entire team at the time met this man. He had been present at planning sessions when ARVs - things built by Lockheed, Northrup, et al, and housed in secretive locations around the world - would be used to simulate an attack on certain assets, making leaders and citizens alike believe that there was a threat from space, when there is none. (Before he could testify, his handlers spirited him away to a secret location in Virginia until the briefing was over...) Sound familiar? Wernher von Braun warned of such a hoax, as a pretext for putting war in space. And many others have warned of the same.

Space based weapons are already in place - part of a secret parallel space program that has been operating since the 1960s. ARVs are built and ready to go (see the book "Disclosure" and the chapter with the testimony of Mark McCandlish, et al). Space holographic deception technologies are in place, tested and ready to fire. And the Big Media is a pawn, now taking dictation from the right hand of the king.

I know this all sounds like science fiction. Absurd. Impossible. Just like 9/11 would have sounded before 9/11. But the unthinkable happened and may happen again, unless we are vigilant.

Combine all of this with the current atmosphere of fear and manipulation and there is a real risk of suspending our collective judgment and our constitution.

But know this: If there was a threat from outer space, we would have known about it as soon as humans started exploding nuclear weapons and going into space with manned travel. That we are still breathing the free air of Earth, given the galacticly stupid and reckless actions of an out of control, illegal, secret group, is abundant testimony to the restraint and peaceful intentions of these visitors. The threat is wholly human. And it is we who must address this threat, rein it in and transform the current situation of war, destruction and secret manipulation to one of true Disclosure and an era of sustained peace.

War in space, to replace war on Earth, is not evolution, but cosmic madness. A world thus united in fear is worse than one divided by ignorance. It is now time for the great leap into the future, a leap that moves us out of fear and ignorance and into an unbroken era of universal peace. Know that this is our destiny. And it will be ours just as soon as we choose it.

Steven M. Greer M.D.
Director, The Disclosure Project
Albemarle County, Virginia
June, 2002

Originally posted by buttercup
Snouter, so what do you think about Genesis 6? I'm not sure if I agree with the 'sons of Seth' theory.... because if those first few verses in Genesis 6 were only talking about the line of Seth mixing with the line of Cain, would that be something so wrong that would make God cause a judgement as drastic as the flood?

Looking at Genesis 6, I think "sons of God" indicates a good character that is an objective of humanoids and "giants" were creatures that were also present at that time. I think there are two separate issues being discussed. First there were "giants" and second there were "sons of God" who found some human women attractive enough to have children with and this was happenning. I used a concordance to search the phrase "sons of God" with Biblesoft software to make sure my premise was consistent, but we should analyze Genesis more exhaustively to confirm.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

By doing an Englishman's search for Stong's #5303 "nephyil" which in KJV is "giants," it translates to mean "tyrant or bully" and the only other use of #5303 is Numbers 13:33 in which the "giants" who were the sons of Anak and potential enemies of Israelites, but not creatures who would necessarily interbreed to upset the prophesy of Jesus being an Israelite.

I think Sitchin uses Strong's # 5307 "nephal" which translates to "fall down," and #5309 "nephel" translates to "untimely birth" to support his theory that "giants" really means "those who were cast down."

Sitchin developed a theory based on ancient ideas in which about 450,000 years ago, the Anunnaki were a group of space travelling humanoid type aliens who arrived on Earth. They came from planet Nibiru.

Hey Snouter, have you ever read the Book of Enoch?

talks in more detail about the stuff that was mentioned in Gen 6.

However, it is apocropha so take it for what it's worth.

RWZ, Cool. I will check Book of Enoch out. I have an 1611 hardcopy of the Bible which includes the Apocrypha. It is tough to read in Old English typeset though (extra letters in words, "v" are written as "u", "s" are written as "f", etc.)

To paraphrase what it says.... and it has been a while

It basicly says that a group of angels were sent to earth to sorta guard over mankind while they were young and these angels consipired to breed with women, whom they found beautiful.

The offspring of the union were the nephilim, and they were the ones who taught mankind how to forge weapons and armour, and taught them about sorcery etc..

RWZ, apparently the Book of Enoch is a Dead Sea Scroll although it is referenced by books of the Apocrypha. I will check it out.

In determining the definition of "sons of God," here is the list using a concordance. It appears in the New Testament, the phrase without a doubt refers to angels. But in the Old Testament in may not be so clear.

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

I Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Banky, this is the original creation and the implication is that there was life, beauty and perfection as it was created by God.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

As a result of sinning angels lead by Satan the world was destroyed so God(s) have to do another creation only this time with humanoids to overcome the fallen angels. (God's son Jesus took part in this creation before he became physically manifested.)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This means it was a decaying wasteland since the word "was" is also translated as "became." The idea being that the Earth was originally created perfect, then became a chaotic apparent wasteland like other planets except it was covered completely with water.

Ps 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

This implies verse 2 of Genesis onward is a second creation and the time period between the two creations is unknown.

CA, you need to make a trip to Roswell... the museum will knock your socks off! :)

Originally posted by Snouter



Banky, this is the original creation and the implication is that there was life, beauty and perfection as it was created by God.



As a result of sinning angels lead by Satan the world was destroyed so God(s) have to do another creation only this time with humanoids to overcome the fallen angels. (God's son Jesus took part in this creation before he became physically manifested.)

This means it was a decaying wasteland since the word "was" is also translated as "became." The idea being that the Earth was originally created perfect, then became a chaotic apparent wasteland like other planets except it was covered completely with water.

This implies verse 2 of Genesis onward is a second creation and the time period between the two creations is unknown.
I'm sorry, but you have it absolutely incorrect. There is no gap in the creation story. Genesis 1 and 2 tell the same story through, with two aspects, but it is still a complete creation, with no period of sin on Earth.

Sin entered the world through Adam.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
That is clear, there was no death or decay until Adam's sin, and that means there could be no previous time of dinosaurs dying on the Earth.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is clear, from this section from the giving of the 10 Commandments, that God is speaking, and God says it was 6 days, not 6 indetermionite time periods, broken up to allow death and suffering to enter the world.

Satan's Sin was in Heaven, not on Earth. It was in Heaven. Satan is a spiritual being, not physical. It was not until Satan tricked Eve into Sinning, and then Adam choosing to sin, that sin and death entered the world.

Even the Biblical references to the judgement of Satan do not mention him coming down to Earth to create havoc, but just that he was judged.

Ezekiel 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
This is the passage where we recogognize God Judged Lucifer, Satan, and announced his coming judgement. Notice, nowhere did Lucifer get cast down to Earth to destroy the first creation, he is to be here until the end.

What you try to descibe is the Gap Theory, it was invented to accomadate the theory of evolution around the turn of the century, it caused Christians to think they could still have evolution and the Bible, since the plain reading of the Bible says evolution is not possible and the Bible be true. I don't know who taught you that, but it is a false doctrine!
:eek:

Originally posted by Corporate Avenger

The testimony of hundreds of government, military and corporate insiders has established this: That UFOs are real, that some are built by our secret 'black' shadowy government projects and some are from extraterrestrial civilizations, and that a group has kept this secret so that the technology behind the UFO can be withheld - until the right time.


Thanks for posting that article, CA... If its true that there is an agenda for a NWO, then I think that the government using the 'alien threat' as their justification is possible... as far-fetched as that may sound.

In fact, remember my friend's interview with William Cooper that I told you about? That is one of the things Cooper said. But you won't like the rest of what Cooper said. He wrote the book "Behold a Pale Horse" over 10 years ago, and since that time has changed his mind on the issue of aliens. In the interview, he said that there is no real evidence that extra-terrestrials have actually visited this planet, and he believes aliens/UFOs are a "...hoax designed to create the perception of an external threat to this earth in order to promulgate one world government."

He does admit that UFOs are real, but he does not believe they are extra-terrestrial. He said that most UFOs are advanced technology belonging to the United States and other governments.

But he does (or I should say did) :( seem to strongly believe that the government is using aliens/UFOs as an excuse for their NWO.

Originally posted by Banky


Sin entered the world through Adam.
That is clear, there was no death or decay until Adam's sin, and that means there could be no previous time of dinosaurs dying on the Earth.




How do you reconcile with this with the ample evidence of prehistoric creatures not present today?

Originally posted by Banky
Sin entered the world through Adam.

I may be wrong but I am surmising that you do not believe angels were created before the humanoids. Since sin entered humanoids through Satan's temptation of Eve, Satan had to have a sinful nature before the humanoids were created. Satan was originally Lucifer, the top angel presiding over a multitude of angels. The fallen angels were already fallen before the creation of Adam and Eve because Satan was hanging around with God until Satan, who free will, decided to rebel and take God's position.

Ezek 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

This all happened long before the humanoid creation.

Originally posted by Banky
That is clear, there was no death or decay until Adam's sin, and that means there could be no previous time of dinosaurs dying on the Earth.

I think that the skeletal remains and fossil records clearly indicate such strange creatures did exist at one time.

Originally posted by Banky
Satan's Sin was in Heaven, not on Earth. It was in Heaven. Satan is a spiritual being, not physical. It was not until Satan tricked Eve into Sinning, and then Adam choosing to sin, that sin and death entered the world.

I disagree because the Bible indicates that the original Lucifer government was earthly. Of course we know that he currently rules the governments since he offered them to Jesus if he bowed down to him.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

We can easily argure that the above indicates Lucifer had a throne on earth but had ambitions to take over the Creator God's throne.

Originally posted by Banky
What you try to descibe is the Gap Theory, it was invented to accomadate the theory of evolution around the turn of the century ...

Wow I didn't know it was an official theory. The thing is even if there is no "gap," the "in the beginning" is a relative starting point in eternity so it doesn't really matter except that it refers to the beginning of this particular creation.

I do not believe in Darwinism and do not think the interpretation I have described supports evolution in any way. It really simply explains that the immortal angels were created first. The universe and the earth were created after the angels. The angels then inhabited the earth. Lucifer went bad and became Satan and decieved one third of the angels to follow him. God then created humans to pick up where the angels failed in a second effort to improve the earth with the objective of ultimately reproducing himself by creating humanoids in his image with holy, righteous character. Finally, God sent the second Adam to help this process.

I just found this site that seems to think the "Gap Theory" invokes Darwinism which it really doesn't. Their Biblical support for their arguments are not convincing. I don't even think they mentioned:

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

in their efforts to conform natural history to their interpretation of the Bible.

http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/menu-age.html

Thanks for posting that article, CA... If its true that there is an agenda for a NWO, then I think that the government using the 'alien threat' as their justification is possible... as far-fetched as that may sound.

In fact, remember my friend's interview with William Cooper that I told you about? That is one of the things Cooper said. But you won't like the rest of what Cooper said. He wrote the book "Behold a Pale Horse" over 10 years ago, and since that time has changed his mind on the issue of aliens. In the interview, he said that there is no real evidence that extra-terrestrials have actually visited this planet, and he believes aliens/UFOs are a "...hoax designed to create the perception of an external threat to this earth in order to promulgate one world government."

He does admit that UFOs are real, but he does not believe they are extra-terrestrial. He said that most UFOs are advanced technology belonging to the United States and other governments.

But he does (or I should say did) seem to strongly believe that the government is using aliens/UFOs as an excuse for their NWO.

I've read and heard a number of articles along those lines. Supposedly a mock alien invasion or incursion is supposed to be the final stage of brining in the New World Order.

In both yours/CA's article, it is interesting to see how the media seems to be softening us up to the idea of there being extraterrestrial visitors. That's all the more reason we need proof positive of any kind of supposed alien craft.

Buttercup, in your post, you say "and since that time has changed his mind on the issue of aliens." Do you mean that he DOES believe there are aliens, or that the NWO isn't planning a mock invasion anymore? Or does he mean something else?

Originally posted by DngrMse

How do you reconcile with this with the ample evidence of prehistoric creatures not present today?

I know you posted to Banky, but if you don't mind I want to add something here...

There's a view that dinosaurs co-existed with man. There are some scriptures in the Bible that describe a big creature with a tail that sways 'like a cedar'. Some people think that some dinosaurs lived after the flood, but died out due to climate changes, or man's hunting. Also, the word 'dinosaur' was not even invented til the 1800's.... many cultures have stories or legends about 'dragons', which are dinosaur-like creatures.

There is other evidence too, that supports the theory that dinosaurs and man co-existed.

Originally posted by Turbostang


I've read and heard a number of articles along those lines. Supposedly a mock alien invasion or incursion is supposed to be the final stage of brining in the New World Order.

In both yours/CA's article, it is interesting to see how the media seems to be softening us up to the idea of there being extraterrestrial visitors. That's all the more reason we need proof positive of any kind of supposed alien craft.

Buttercup, in your post, you say "and since that time has changed his mind on the issue of aliens." Do you mean that he DOES believe there are aliens, or that the NWO isn't planning a mock invasion anymore? Or does he mean something else?

Yeah, it does seem like the media/Hollywood is softening us up for the idea of ETs.

What I meant was (from how i understood him) that in the past he might've believed that aliens/UFOs have visited us, but now he does not believe it. (or at least does not think there is real evidence) He DOES believe that the government is promoting this deception in order to justify the NWO.

Originally posted by buttercup


I know you posted to Banky, but if you don't mind I want to add something here...

There's a view that dinosaurs co-existed with man. There are some scriptures in the Bible that describe a big creature with a tail that sways 'like a cedar'. Some people think that some dinosaurs lived after the flood, but died out due to climate changes, or man's hunting. Also, the word 'dinosaur' was not even invented til the 1800's.... many cultures have stories or legends about 'dragons', which are dinosaur-like creatures.

There is other evidence too, that supports the theory that dinosaurs and man co-existed.

I thought, from what I read, it was only mentioned in the book of Job.

There is an example in Glen Rose, Texas... but (always a but, eh!) it's not totally evident that it was human due to some odd circumstances. Namely shape and structure of the said prints found.

Originally posted by DngrMse


How do you reconcile with this with the ample evidence of prehistoric creatures not present today?

All through history, especially in sea stories, there are recorded witness of large creatures that resemble dinosaurs. The Chinese have stories of Dragons, too. These creatures, if we saw them woul appear to be dinosaurs, only a little smaller, but dinosaur like the same.

After Noah's flood, the climate changed completely. ALL the creatures God created were on the Ark of Noah, that does not mean they were on the ark in all different types, like Shepherds and Spaniels for dogs, but just two dogs. The DNA necessary to provide the different types of dogs would be in the two dogs themselves. Genetic isolation would do the rest.

As for dinosaurs on the Ark, they probably were baby dinosaurs.

I do not discount the existence of fossils of dinosaurs, but I believe it was Noah's flood that killed the great majority of what we call pre-historic dinosaurs. Remember, to make a fossil, you have to bury the animal right at the point of death or quickly thereafter, else decomposition takes place. To make a fossil of a large animal, it would have to be buried before it was eaten for scrap by birds and insects, and that is what we see.

Also, we have fossil fish. Ever see a deadfish sink to the bottom? No, they float, and all the little creatures in the sea have a feast on the animal as it floats, then sinks as a carcass. There are also scavenger fish that eat dead fish. So, In order to have fossil fish, they had to be buried quickly, also. Noah's flood was a catostrpphic event, it was world wide, and would privide all the means to bury animals quickly. That would provide the fossils we see today and throughout history.

Originally posted by Banky


All through history, especially in sea stories, there are recorded witness of large creatures that resemble dinosaurs. The Chinese have stories of Dragons, too. These creatures, if we saw them woul appear to be dinosaurs, only a little smaller, but dinosaur like the same.

And lots of cultures mention other creatures too, does that mean that leprechauns, and mermaids existed as well? Old stories do not evidence provide. If these theories are to be taken seriously, you'll have to provide something other than bible quotes, and old wives tales.


After Noah's flood, the climate changed completely. ALL the creatures God created were on the Ark of Noah, that does not mean they were on the ark in all different types, like Shepherds and Spaniels for dogs, but just two dogs. The DNA necessary to provide the different types of dogs would be in the two dogs themselves. Genetic isolation would do the rest.

As for dinosaurs on the Ark, they probably were baby dinosaurs.

I do not discount the existence of fossils of dniosaurs, but I believe it was Noah's flood that killed the great majority of what we call pre-historic diniosaurs. Remember, to make a fossil, you have to bury the animal right at the point of death or quickly thereafter, else decomposition takes place. To make a fossil of a large animal, it would have to be buried before it was eaten for scrap by birds and insects, and that is what we see.

Also, we have fossil fish. Ever see a deadfish sink to the bottom? No, they float, and all the little creatures in the sea have a feast on the animal as it floats, then sinks as a carcass. There are also scavenger fish that eat dead fish. So, In order to have fossil fish, they had to be buried quickly, also. Noah's flood was acatostrpphic event, it was world wide, and would privide all the means to bury animals quickly.

There are ample amounts of credible evidence that these animals did not all die out at once, but instead died at different times, seperated by upwards of 35 million years. As we go back in time, life appears to have been simpler than it is today. If you insist on pushing a literalist interpretation of the bible, you'll have to provide other hard evidence to support your claims. Also, if you are taking this literalist approach to the bible, does this mean you accept everything in the bible literally? Or just parts.

Dead fish don't always float. Dead fish may not always be in the water. Ever see a pond dry out? Not many scavenger fish can survive the lack of water to take advantage of the other dead fish. They soon become dead themselves, lets not forget.

Originally posted by buttercup


I know you posted to Banky, but if you don't mind I want to add something here...

There's a view that dinosaurs co-existed with man. There are some scriptures in the Bible that describe a big creature with a tail that sways 'like a cedar'. Some people think that some dinosaurs lived after the flood, but died out due to climate changes, or man's hunting. Also, the word 'dinosaur' was not even invented til the 1800's.... many cultures have stories or legends about 'dragons', which are dinosaur-like creatures.

There is other evidence too, that supports the theory that dinosaurs and man co-existed.

Can you provide links to this evidence? Remember, there is ample evidence to the contrary. If evidence exists that dinosaurs and man coexisted, it will have to be credible, and there will have to be a lot of it. Stories, and bible quotes won't cut it.

Originally posted by DngrMse


And lots of cultures mention other creatures too, does that mean that leprechauns, and mermaids existed as well? Old stories do not evidence provide. If these theories are to be taken seriously, you'll have to provide something other than bible quotes, and old wives tales.
When you find a fossil mermaid or bones of a Leprechaun, tell me, because we do have fossils of sea monsters in the dinosaurs ;)



There are ample amounts of credible evidence that these animals did not all die out at once, but instead died at different times, seperated by upwards of 35 million years. As we go back in time, life appears to have been simpler than it is today. If you insist on pushing a literalist interpretation of the bible, you'll have to provide other hard evidence to support your claims. Also, if you are taking this literalist approach to the bible, does this mean you accept everything in the bible literally? Or just parts.
Actually, we don;t have evidence, we have theories. Sedimentation and layers of animal fossil is not consistant. The Grand Canyon is a laid out sediment museum, and it shows many layers in the wrong order if compared to evolutionary theory. Also, fossils are found in all layers. I agree that many are found incertain layers, but they are not found exclusively in certain layers.

One other thing to remember, if Noah's Flood were true, we would expect to find Billions of dead things, buried in sediment that by now became rock. We see just that in the fossil record: Billions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock. Interesting, isn't it? :)

Dead fish don't always float. Dead fish may not always be in the water. Ever see a pond dry out? Not many scavenger fish can survive the lack of water to take advantage of the other dead fish. They soon become dead themselves, lets not forget.
True, but dead fish do float almost all the time, and the other life forms eat those dead fish. How can we get fossils of thousands of fish all at once, like in Germany, unless somethign buried the fish all at once? Just the decay process alone would produce organisms that ate the flesh off the fish before it had a chance to be buried before it decomposed and became rock.

Try to make afossil yourself: Buy a cow, take it in your back yard, shoot it, and watch how it gets covered slowly over time to become a fossil. Sound like a good idea?

Of course not. You must see it by now, you need something catastrophic to bury the animal whole, intact, before decay in order to make a fossil out of it.

Originally posted by DngrMse


Can you provide links to this evidence? Remember, there is ample evidence to the contrary. If evidence exists that dinosaurs and man coexisted, it will have to be credible, and there will have to be a lot of it. Stories, and bible quotes won't cut it.

Paluxey River bed in Texas. Footprints of dinosaurs and men were found about 50 years ago. It has become a tourist attraction.

Footprints in Laetoli (SP?) in Kenya, dated over 2 Million years old, way before man was supposed to be out of the trees.

Plus, what animals were dinosaurs? Were only T-Rex and Brontosaurus dinosaurs? Almost all life forms we have today were alive in the 'dinosaur' age, and we see that from the fossil record. Lizards, aligators, crocodiles, birds, all existed in the dinosaur age. The only arguement is what part of the dino age!

Originally posted by DngrMse


And lots of cultures mention other creatures too, does that mean that leprechauns, and mermaids existed as well? Old stories do not evidence provide. If these theories are to be taken seriously, you'll have to provide something other than bible quotes, and old wives tales.

[b]

There are ample amounts of credible evidence that these animals did not all die out at once, but instead died at different times, seperated by upwards of 35 million years. As we go back in time, life appears to have been simpler than it is today. If you insist on pushing a literalist interpretation of the bible, you'll have to provide other hard evidence to support your claims. Also, if you are taking this literalist approach to the bible, does this mean you accept everything in the bible literally? Or just parts.

Dead fish don't always float. Dead fish may not always be in the water. Ever see a pond dry out? Not many scavenger fish can survive the lack of water to take advantage of the other dead fish. They soon become dead themselves, lets not forget.

I missed one off yur questions. Yes, I take the Bible literally. That is why I can find answers to questions that are asked, I dont have to rely on guessing.

Originally posted by Banky
Paluxey River bed in Texas. Footprints of dinosaurs and men were found about 50 years ago. It has become a tourist attraction.


The size 14 or so footprints at Paluxy River limestone beds near Glen Rose, Texas apparently turned out to be a hoax like Piltdown Man. Although, efforts can be made to tie this idea to the two references to "giants" in the Old Testament.

So just how credible is Phil Schneider? CA? He had alot to say on the subject of alien humanoids and NWO... his death was also very strange.

Originally posted by Snouter


The size 14 or so footprints at Paluxy River limestone beds near Glen Rose, Texas apparently turned out to be a hoax like Piltdown Man. Although, efforts can be made to tie this idea to the two references to "giants" in the Old Testament.
Not all were faked. Some were, obviously, and Creationists admit that, but not all were size 18 (I think it was 18, and some were 6 toed)

Originally posted by Banky

Not all were faked. Some were, obviously, and Creationists admit that, but not all were size 18 (I think it was 18, and some were 6 toed)

You're using a less than credible source for evidence. 'They' admit that some were faked, but claim that others were'nt. Sounds fishy to me.

Again, to challenge existing evidence, you'll have to provide as much, and as credible to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by buttercup
I just want to know your thoughts on the topic of aliens and UFOs.

Do you have any personal experiences you want to talk about, because I think all of this is very interesting.
I believe that there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe. It would be downright arrogant to believe otherwise.

As far as UFO's are concerned: I'll leave the Roswell incident and my beliefs at the door. I just know that if we were able to "travel the universe", visiting other planets would be a given. I have no doubts that aliens have visited this planet.

Personal experiences: a couple of things, but most I can clear with natural phenomena.

Originally posted by buggy

I thought, from what I read, it was only mentioned in the book of Job.

There is an example in Glen Rose, Texas... but (always a but, eh!) it's not totally evident that it was human due to some odd circumstances. Namely shape and structure of the said prints found.

There are a couple passages in the book of Job (the oldest book in the Bible).... but there are also a few other references in the Old Testament to prehistoric creatures. Like I said, the word dinosaur was not invented yet, but the Hebrew word 'tannin' which translates to dragon is mentioned over 20 times. Here are a few...

Jeremiah 51:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER%2B51%3A34&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=10&y=7), Isaiah 51:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA%2B51%3A9&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=12&y=9), Psalm 74:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS%2B74%3A13&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=18&y=9), Micha 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MICAH%2B1%3A8&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=7&y=12)


Isaiah 30:6 mentions some animals in Egypt including a 'flying serpent', (like the pterosaur).... And apparently some other ancient writings (by historians) mention a 'winged serpent'.

Also... ancient artwork and artifacts depicting dinosaurs has been found including cave drawings, clay figurines, vases, etc. Some of these show men and dinosaurs together (or fighting).

Keep in mind that our modern day concept of dinosaurs didn't begin until the mid-1800's.... so why would people thousands of years ago make artwork of live dinosaurs interacting with men?

There is also the legend of St. George, who supposedly slew a dragon that was terrorizing a Libyan town.

One thing that always did make me wonder... why is iit that nearly all cultures have some form of dragon myth? No, I don't buy the Jungian collective consciousness bit either...

Originally posted by buggy
CA, you need to make a trip to Roswell... the museum will knock your socks off! :)


I bet.. I've been wanting to go there for years, I'm planning on stopping through there this fall as I'll be driving through that way sometime at the end of the year.

Do you know how far it is from interstate 10?? Cause I'm gonna be taking it through NM on my way back East..

Its true....almost every single culture has legends and artwork of dragons.

Here's a quote- The World Book Encyclopedia (1973) notes "the dragons of legend are strangely like actual creatures that have lived in the past. They are much like the giant reptiles which inhabited the earth long before man is supposed to have appeared on earth."

I think we're just so conditioned these days to believe the evolutionary view that dinosaurs lived millions of years before men... that its hard for people to believe the view that they co-existed.

Originally posted by Corporate Avenger



I bet.. I've been wanting to go there for years, I'm planning on stopping through there this fall as I'll be driving through that way sometime at the end of the year.

Do you know how far it is from interstate 10?? Cause I'm gonna be taking it through NM on my way back East..

It's about 215 miles off of 10. We took US 285. :)

Originally posted by buttercup


There are a couple passages in the book of Job (the oldest book in the Bible).... but there are also a few other references in the Old Testament to prehistoric creatures. Like I said, the word dinosaur was not invented yet, but the Hebrew word 'tannin' which translates to dragon is mentioned over 20 times. Here are a few...

Jeremiah 51:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER%2B51%3A34&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=10&y=7), Isaiah 51:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA%2B51%3A9&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=12&y=9), Psalm 74:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS%2B74%3A13&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=18&y=9), Micha 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MICAH%2B1%3A8&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=7&y=12)


Isaiah 30:6 mentions some animals in Egypt including a 'flying serpent', (like the pterosaur).... And apparently some other ancient writings (by historians) mention a 'winged serpent'.

Also... ancient artwork and artifacts depicting dinosaurs has been found including cave drawings, clay figurines, vases, etc. Some of these show men and dinosaurs together (or fighting).

Keep in mind that our modern day concept of dinosaurs didn't begin until the mid-1800's.... so why would people thousands of years ago make artwork of live dinosaurs interacting with men?

What some people don't know, is that in Genesis 1:21, the mention of GREAT WHALES, is actually SEA MONSTERS in the original Hebrew!

21 And God <0430> created <01254> (8799) great <01419> whales <08577>, and every living <02416> creature <05315> that moveth <07430> (8802), which the waters <04325> brought forth abundantly <08317> (8804), after their kind <04327>, and every winged <03671> fowl <05775> after his kind <04327>: and God <0430> saw <07200> (8799) that it was good <02896>.

08577 !ynt tanniyn tan-neen' or ~ynt tanniym (#Eze 29:3) tan-neem'

intensive from the same as 08565; TWOT - 2528b; n m

AV - dragon 21, serpent 3, whale 3, sea monster 1; 28

1) dragon, serpent, sea monster
1a) dragon or dinosaur
1b) sea or river monster
1c) serpent, venomous snake

So, the Bible DOES speak of Sea Monsters!

Originally posted by buttercup


There are a couple passages in the book of Job (the oldest book in the Bible).... but there are also a few other references in the Old Testament to prehistoric creatures. Like I said, the word dinosaur was not invented yet, but the Hebrew word 'tannin' which translates to dragon is mentioned over 20 times. Here are a few...

Jeremiah 51:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER%2B51%3A34&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=10&y=7), Isaiah 51:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA%2B51%3A9&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=12&y=9), Psalm 74:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS%2B74%3A13&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=18&y=9), Micha 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MICAH%2B1%3A8&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=7&y=12)


Isaiah 30:6 mentions some animals in Egypt including a 'flying serpent', (like the pterosaur).... And apparently some other ancient writings (by historians) mention a 'winged serpent'.


In the 5 examples you gave, the original word is the word for Dragon, in the 5th, it is the word Seraphim, meaning fiery one. Sometimes that word was used for an Angel, Seriphim, but in most cases meant fiery winged beast.

Originally posted by buttercup


Thanks for posting that article, CA... If its true that there is an agenda for a NWO, then I think that the government using the 'alien threat' as their justification is possible... as far-fetched as that may sound.

In fact, remember my friend's interview with William Cooper that I told you about? That is one of the things Cooper said. But you won't like the rest of what Cooper said. He wrote the book "Behold a Pale Horse" over 10 years ago, and since that time has changed his mind on the issue of aliens. In the interview, he said that there is no real evidence that extra-terrestrials have actually visited this planet, and he believes aliens/UFOs are a "...hoax designed to create the perception of an external threat to this earth in order to promulgate one world government."

He does admit that UFOs are real, but he does not believe they are extra-terrestrial. He said that most UFOs are advanced technology belonging to the United States and other governments.

But he does (or I should say did) :( seem to strongly believe that the government is using aliens/UFOs as an excuse for their NWO.


I wouldn't put anything past these people, I also strongly believe the same NWO was behind Sep. 11th. There even was a UFO caught on tape over NYC on Sep. 11th.


I agree with Cooper about the NWO using a false Alien threat to advance their agenda, although I disagree with him about ET's having visited us. I believe there are both UFO's from the Earth and from space somewhere or another dimension. Some people think UFO's might even come from the Oceans as there have been strange sightings of UFO's that enter or come out of the water. There were the Foo Fighters in WW2 that were observed flying at thousands of mph. There have been incidents where UFO's have completely shut down nuclear missile silos and baffled the same US military that some claim is flying ALL of these UFO's. Yea right..

Lt. Colonel Dwynne Arneson: US Air Force (ret.): "I was the top-secret control officer at Malmstom AFB for the 20th Air Division. I happened to see a message that came through my communications center. It said...that 'A UFO was seen near missile silos'...and it was hovering. It said that the crew going on duty and the crew coming off duty all saw the UFO just hovering in mid-air. It was a metallic circular object and from what I understand, the missiles were all shut down. What I mean by 'missiles going down' is that they went dead. And something turned those missiles off, so they couldn't be put back in a mode for launching."


Captain Robert Salas: USAF SAC Missile Launch Officer [1964-1971]: "The UFO incident happened on the morning of March 16, 1967. on duty at Oscar Flight as part of the 490th strategic missile squad and there are five launch control facilities assigned to that particular squadron. and I received a call from my topside security guardand he said that he and some of the guards had been observing some strange lights flying around the site around the launch control facility. I said, you mean UFO? He said, well, he didn't know what they were but they were lights and were flying around. They were not airplanes; They were not helicopters. They weren't making any noise[A little later] our missiles started shutting down one by one. By shutting down, I mean they went into a "no-go" condition meaning they could not be launched. These weapons were Minuteman One missiles and were of course nuclear-tipped warhead missiles...this incident was of extreme concern to SAC headquarters because they couldn't explain it."


Colonel Ross Dedrickson: US Air Force/Atomic Energy Commission (ret.): "After retiring from the Air Force I joined the Boeing company and was responsible for accounting for all of the nuclear fleet of Minuteman missiles. In this incident they actually photographed the UFO following the missile as it climbed into space and, shining a beam on it, neutralized the missile. I also learned of a number of incidents which happened, a couple of nuclear weapons sent into space were destroyed by the extraterrestrials. Our government sent a nuclear weapon for explosion on the moon's surface[And] the ETs destroyed the weapon as it went toward the moon. [Apparently] the idea of any explosion in space by any Earth government was not acceptable to the extraterrestrials, and that has been demonstrated over and over."


Professor Robert Jacobs: Lt. USAF 1369th Photo Squadron: "...we were testing ballistic missiles that were to deliver nuclear weapons on target...my duty [was] to supervise the instrumentation photography of every missile that went down in that western test range...and into the frame came something else. It flew into the frame and shot a beam of light at the warhead. Now, remember, all this stuff was flying at several thousand miles an hour, so this thing fires a beam of light at the warhead, hits it, .... The warhead tumbles out of space. The object, the points of light that we saw, the warhead and so forth, were traveling through subspace about sixty miles straight up, and they were going somewhere in the neighborhood of eleven to fourteen thousand miles an hour, when this thing caught up to them, flew in, flew around them, and flew back out."



Nanu nanu..