I really get discusted when I see an American flag on a foriegn car (remember the gulf/oil war?). I am very insulted by this. I really dont think that people realize how many high paying jobs lost or how much money is lost when people send their dollars out of the U.S. Now more than ever we need to buy cars that are at least 98% built in North America!

Dont be fooled this the argument that Hondas are made here either. Most the the high paid engineers and motor builders are in Japan. They just put the parts together here to take atvage of loop holes and evede taxes! They get the added bennefit of telling their customers that the are "made in the USA" NOT!

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" as supreme advocate for the people!

Okay, Ian and I agree on a few points so hell must be in the middle of a blizzard!!! Yeah, maybe made in the USA, but, profits still go to Japan, though not entirely. Look at it this way:

Ford owns: Land Rover, Jaguar, Volvo, a big part of Mazda and a few others I'm sure

When they were just Chrysler, they owned a portion of Mitsubishi.

GM owns some of Toyota and Isuzu etc.

While American automakers have come a LONG way in setting quality standards, I'm not convinced they are up to all of the foriegn car quality. When I start seeing US built engines going 3/4 million miles without a rebuild, as I have seen several Toyota 22R engines do, I'll be a believer. Granted on most of those there wasn't a whole lot resembling a car body left.

People want the most for their money. Many people buy foreign cars now because they did when American cars were junk, and were impressed with the quality difference. So they continue to buy what worked for them.
Just because they buy a foreign car does not mean they are not patriotic. They just happen to not like a segment of American industry.


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Uh, what country is this??

Well Mav, the early-mid 80s were the dark years for the U.S. and the invisible hand ALLREADY HAS pushed U.S. manufacturers to improve their quality.

BTW, I have owned over 30 high milage cars a trucks of nearly every make and the only one that ever blew up and starnded me was a toyota R22 at 160,000! I hate toys. GM is still a little lacking too I must admit.

I DO think not owning any American cars is a sign of not being patriotic. All these Camry and Hundya (sp?) driving yuppies at work swear that they will never own an "American POS". I think they should try living in Korea for a while.

Anyway, the effect on our economy is greater than anyone could imagine!



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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" as supreme advocate for the people!

Every car maker makes a lemon now and then. I have seen more 22R's go super high mileage than anything else. Does this mean I would buy one? Hell no. I'd rather go back to my teen years and buy another Pinto with the 2300 in it and rag the hell out of it. These motors were damn near indestructible also, as many lasted longer than the car that was built around them.

But to say someone is not patriotic because they do not buy American made cars is really intolerant of other peoples likes and desires. While I agree that the economy could be taking hits by every US citizen not buying American, what can you do about it?

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Uh, what country is this??

I currently drive an '81 Toyota Celica with 240,000 plus miles on it. I also have an American flag sticker on the back of it. Sure the car has had some trouble, but the only "engine" trouble I have had, was when I warped the head. Do I think all Toyota Celica's are as tough as that? no. To base my opinion on one example of something is ludicrous.

I do not think I am unpatriotic for driving a foreign car. Some people are unable to purchase cars every 5 years or so and have to rely on the idea that foriegn cars will likely be less expensive and more reliable than their domestic counterparts. If I had my druthers, I would buy an older style mustang. But to call me unpatriotic for owning and driving a foriegn car in the meantime is quite unreasonable.

American is a country of capitalism and free enterprise. In such an economy people will buy what their economic choice dictates. If that choice is not the American made car, then it is up to the companies to change something in order to compete in the economy so that the choice will be the American car. To sandbag the public into buying American cars for the sole reason of being American is not economically feasible. If everyone bought American for virtue of the car being American then the companies will not change. They would have no reason for it. Without change, American cars would not "improve" to what makes the foreign cars the economic choice for some people. Sure, now the Smith's invisible hand is at work. And it should stay that way.



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-Will

Not to mention ****ty low end american cars like the Dodge Neon and Ford Escort or Probe are extremely lame when compared to a Toyota Corolla or Nissan. And as far as patriotism goes Im proud to live in the United States of America primarily because of the lack of national identity we have here.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

Eh, Cody, Id have to go either way man.

On what basis are the escort/neon crappy compared to the corolla? (I personally would go with the escort, ro rather the focus)

The focus is I believe the only car to ever win North American Car of the Year award twice in a row and the European car of the eyar award twice in a row.

But I digress...

Just wondering what you were basing that on?

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Manu Narayan

I am proud of the Pearl Harbor survivors, as I am proud of all veterans. I am proud to be an American and I will have an American flag sticker on my car to show that pride. I am proud of the fact that they fought for my freedom and made it possible for me to have my economic choice. That way I do not have to endure government issued sauerkraut (sp?), sushi, and/or 3rd rate vodka.

Regardless of your opinion on who makes the best car, Americans are stil buying foriegn cars. The "big 3" thus, need to change in order to compete for whatever reason Americans are buying the foreign cars. The Big 3 should not have the government or anyone else hold their hands in our economy. If we always bought American without change we would slowly but surely lose quality. It is like the downfall of communism. If a worker, or in this case a compnay, gets all the businees regardless of the quality of the work, then why would the business or worker put forth that extra effort to make a high quality product?

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-Will

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I have NOTHING againgst the Japanese or anyone else. I also think they make fine cars and have owned a few myself (used).

Also, I am not talking about government controled protectionism here. I am talking about taking the personal responsibility to think of the greater good of your country when spending your money. Thats all. It is a common American value that seems to have fallen out of vouge in the past decade or so.

Dont get me wrong, if you only had a choice between a $15k Accord and a $16 Caviler then by all means get the Honda. But that is not the only choice in the real world. For ANY type of japanese car (in price range, value, quality, performance, ect) there is an alternative American car out there waiting for you to discover. The problem is, folks that came of age in the 80s and 90s have already written off American cars in their minds and bought into negitive stereo types. How do you open a closed mind?

The one thing that Americans CANT compete in is resale price. I laugh at these guys who pay 10k+ for a used Japanese sedan with 110k on them when I can get a similar year mustang or Taurus (I have both now and the Taurus has 190k on it) of a simular year for $1500-2500!!! Well if new cars and trade ins are your thing (and it is NOT mine) than you have a valid reason to buy foriegn. It is frustrating and unfortunate that the resale values are so screwed up BUT it all goes back to the faulse and negative stereo types that people have about our cars out of (and I dont mean this in a bad way) ignorance.

I for one will prolly always buy used (but that is another thread) and as long as there is a glut of inexpensive(under valued), high quality American cars, I will be there to snatch them up!

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" as supreme advocate for the people!

Will, the free market is great. In fact we have some competition in the U.S. with the big 3. I also would say the foriegn competition is probably resonsible for the improvements in our cars today. BUT you seem to be opperating on the FAULSE premis that Japanese cars are currently better AND cheaper than U.S. cars today and that is simply not the case. What frustrates me is that American cars had a few bad years (8 or 9) and now they seem to be black listed by the youth that grew up in the era of Japanese cars! Our grand parents (or great grand parents)would roll over in their graves if they heard us talk about making these financially important (for the U.S.) decisions strictly in Adam Smith terms over that of the over all good of our great country. Its simply not the value system that they fought and died for and as a matter of principal, we need to be mindfull of this as well as they jobs that we help create for our neighbors (who in turn, purchase goods and services from us)

Maybe you are patriotic but just misguided. It is an insult to many people when they see an American flag on a Japanese car plain and simple. We should be mindfull of our symbolism. I remember back in the 80s I met a black skinhead! Talk about misguided!! He even had a swastika (SP?) on his coat too. My neighbor is a Pearl Harbor survivor and has a bumper sticker on his F150 that says "Remember Pearl". I think of him all the time and his contrubutions and pain as a wounded vet. He litterally gets tears in his eyes when you talk about this subject with him. To him, he would equate the youth of today and their cavilier attitude to their car purchases and American jobs, with that of the trouble youth of the 60s and their fugged up drug culture.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" as supreme advocate for the people!

Trust me, I sympathize with your Pearl Harbor veteran neighbor. Half of my family are war veterans. However, we do not live in the same society that breeded the feelings and emotions of World War II. I have nothing against the Japanese, and I will buy a Japanese car if that fits my needs. Maybe it is different for some people, and maybe some others will interpret a foreign car purchase in some other way, but if I buy a foreign car it says nothing about my patriotism. Go ahead and claim that it does, but I will always know that you would be misinterpreting my actions.

On a slightly different look at things, IF the US was to only buy American, that would severely damage trade with other countries. This would hurt our foreign relations, and could actually spiral us into worse circumstances, or even another war. That does not sound like looking out for the country's best interests to me. The modern world is more heaviley focused on a large international market, not on the national markets of decades ago. Foreiegn trade is a give and take process, and it certainly would not be beneficial if we only exported without importing things also.

Nate

Sure Neon maybe be North American car of the year but hmmm maybe thats cause its made in north america... Corolla is the best sellinbg car in the world for like a million years or something. I just think the probe and neon look fruity and have wimping looking tires. As far as the patriotic angle I wonder how the Native Americans feel when they see that fat American Flag flying over their old homes as they sit on a 15 mile square hellhole reservation in the badlands somewhere.

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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Sure Neon maybe be North American car of the year but hmmm maybe thats cause its made in north america... Corolla is the best sellinbg car in the world for like a million years or something. I just think the probe and neon look fruity and have wimping looking tires. As far as the patriotic angle I wonder how the Native Americans feel when they see that fat American Flag flying over their old homes as they sit on a 15 mile square hellhole reservation in the badlands somewhere.



Interesting angle with a native American twist. All I can say about that is from my personal experience with traveling through reservations and going to powows 90+% of the vehicals there were American pickups! And as odd as it may seem to you, The natives are very patriotic and always fly the U.S. flag over their meeting halls too.

As for any claim about the Neon being "made" in North America. Please provide the proof. I want to see what percentage of the components are actually made here.

As for Corrala being a best seller. Im not sure what your point is here. The Ford Taurus was number one in sadan sales AND customer satisafaction for a number of years too, knocking the Accord from its thrown.

I guess it all really boils down to my total disbelief that the idea of buying American is SO foriegn to most people under 30 now. Its downright scarey! Im not this flag waiving blood and guts ignorant good ole boy either (for those who might want to right me off as such). I just feel that I have an obligation to my countryman, and spending my money wisely is the least I can do.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" as supreme advocate for the people!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-06-2001).]

Originally posted by Fordman50:
As for any claim about the Neon being "made" in North America. Please provide the proof. I want to see what percentage of the components are actually made here.

What has this got to do with ANYTHING related to the subject at hand? Any idea how many Bosch and Hitachi parts are in my Escort GT? There is NO, I repeat, NO American made car with 100% American made parts.

Originally posted by Fordman50:
As for Corrala being a best seller. Im not sure what your point is here. The Ford Taurus was number one in sadan sales AND customer satisafaction for a number of years too, knocking the Accord from its thrown.

This is true. But lets us also not forget the best selling VEHICLE period for over 20 years is the F-Series trucks.

Originally posted by Fordman50:
I guess it all really boils down to my total disbelief that the idea of buying American is SO foriegn to most people under 30 now. Its downright scarey! Im not this flag waiving blood and guts ignorant good ole boy either (for those who might want to right me off as such). I just feel that I have an obligation to my countryman, and spending my money wisely is the least I can do.

Ignoring the fact that Americans do work hard for their money and desrve to have the freedom to spend that same money on whatever they see fit to spend it on, have you driven by and auto assembly plant lately? There are two GM truck plants in Moraine, Ohio. You'd be amazed at the number of FOREIGN cars parked in that lot. I've been to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant (Expedition and Navigators are built there) several times. Many of their employees also drive foreign cars. When you get the guys that MAKE the American made car to stop buying foreign (and it is not just the under 30 age group, either), and start buying exclusivly American, the you could start working on the rest of the country.




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Uh, what country is this??

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Sure Neon maybe be North American car of the year but hmmm maybe thats cause its made in north america... Corolla is the best sellinbg car in the world for like a million years or something. I just think the probe and neon look fruity and have wimping looking tires. As far as the patriotic angle I wonder how the Native Americans feel when they see that fat American Flag flying over their old homes as they sit on a 15 mile square hellhole reservation in the badlands somewhere.
Well the probe is really in a different class than the corolla.
North American Car of the Year is assigned at the Autoshow, a car sold in the US can win (regardless fo where it is 'produced.) The Focus (not the neon) has won that twice ina row, and the European one I believe twice in a row.

And I am not sure where you read the carolla is the best selling ar period, as I am pretty sure the civic sells more units.



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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by 74Mav:
Ignoring the fact that Americans do work hard for their money and desrve to have the freedom to spend that same money on whatever they see fit to spend it on, have you driven by and auto assembly plant lately? There are two GM truck plants in Moraine, Ohio. You'd be amazed at the number of FOREIGN cars parked in that lot. I've been to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant (Expedition and Navigators are built there) several times. Many of their employees also drive foreign cars. When you get the guys that MAKE the American made car to stop buying foreign (and it is not just the under 30 age group, either), and start buying exclusivly American, the you could start working on the rest of the country.


Very true. There's no greater statement to be made than to see the builders of these cars choosing to drive the competition.

The big three still haven't figured out how to build a good small, economy car. Let's compare the Civic, Corolla, et. al. to the Neon & Cavalier. I wouldn't buy either of those two cars if a gun were pointed to my head. (The Focus is at least, a step in the right direction). If I'm going to drive a poorly built, obsolete car it's damn sure going to be a Mustang or Camaro, which are at least fun & powerful.

When test driving brand-new 98-99 model American cars, none were as solid as my 1990 Nissan 240SX with 150k hard miles on the clock. Now, I personally am willing to overlook a whole lot of deficiencies in the name of performance. But, the majority of buyers are not.

Originally posted by Fordman50:


Give a man enough "freedom" and he just could hang himself! Remember, according to the bible, God too gave man the the freedom to choose his own path. But all paths do not lead to God. Just an analogy to think about.



Nah he wouldnt hang himself all the intolerant nationalists would hang him.



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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

MAV---An interesting observation about the GM parking lot. I had been told by some Auto workers in Michigan a few years back, that you would not dare drive a honda to work. Another point, the contents of a car is broken down into percentages of where the parts came from and where the work was done for each car for book keeping/tax reasons. When you look at any car, your not going to see any thoroughbreads, but I think yoiu know what I mean by an American car http://discussanything.com/Ubb/wink.gif

Give a man enough "freedom" and he just could hang himself! Remember, according to the bible, God too gave man the the freedom to choose his own path. But all paths do not lead to God. Just an analogy to think about.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" as supreme advocate for the people!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-06-2001).]

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Nah he wouldnt hang himself all the intolerant nationalists would hang him.



Heh...I'd have to agree.
Buying American = the road to God? Erm...right. I, personally, will buy whatever I damn well please, be it cars, clothes, or whatever. I think the U.S. is a good place to live, in general...but part of what makes it great is that we have *freedoms.* Ie. freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to buy products from other countries instead of government sanctioned products...It's how our country works. We need to be able to trade with other countries to maintain our ties with them. If it's better quality, I'm not going to think twice about buying something from Japan, Iceland, or Timbuktu.

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

Originally posted by Aphasia:
Heh...I'd have to agree.
Buying American = the road to God? Erm...right. I, personally, will buy whatever I damn well please, be it cars, clothes, or whatever. I think the U.S. is a good place to live, in general...but part of what makes it great is that we have *freedoms.* Ie. freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to buy products from other countries instead of government sanctioned products...It's how our country works. We need to be able to trade with other countries to maintain our ties with them. If it's better quality, I'm not going to think twice about buying something from Japan, Iceland, or Timbuktu.



So now I’m an intolerant nationalist??? WTH? I am probably one of the most "tolerant" people you will ever meet in respect to other races and cultures. Nationalist? I think a little nationalism in everyone is a good thing but I am not fighting to pull the U.S. from NATO or anything!

"I, personally, will buy whatever I damn well please, be it cars, clothes, or whatever. I think the U.S. is a good place to live"

THIS IS WHAT KILLS ME! ME, ME, I, I, I! Everyone in our generation is thinking selfishly about themselves and not about the country, earth or neighbors. God forbid we get labeled an "intolerant nationalist" for thinking about our neighbors and country!!!

BTW, how do you think the America became such a "great place to live"? American values! Values which up until recent times not only included freedom, but also buying American and protecting American intrest (amoung others). (Sorry to pick on you A but your attitude typifies the majority of your gen unfortunately)

I am not big into the anti globalization and environmental issues but I think they would agree with my stand on other grounds as well (insert Corp Avenger here). One of the reasons our manufacturing job goes to 3rd world countries is that they have no environmental or working standards! A product made in china may pollute the air we all breath 100 times worse than if it was made in the U.S. with slave child labor no less!!! So how is that a good thing? Sure it cost less that way, but it that a good reason to buy it? Score a deal at the expense of our environment and someone’s exploited child?

Its not even fair trade or a level playing field! If we have health, environmental and non-exploitative child labor laws and the others don’t, how can we compete on price alone? WE CAN’T! That’s why consumers need to be educated and consciences and buy with their brains and not JUST their wallets.

Call me old fashioned or a nationalist or intolerant or a liberal or a conservative or whatever, but I have ETHICS and that too was once an American value!

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" as supreme advocate for the people!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-07-2001).]

This whole argument kills me. Look at things historically and globaly. War is absolute hell throughout history countries are involved in war for both rightous and selfish reasons especially the US. To use the fact that Americans fought and died in wars as a reason to buy a car in a capitalist country is ridiculous. "FAULSE premis that Japanese cars are currently better AND cheaper than U.S. cars today and that is simply not the case." That is exactly the case! Cars are rated by impartial consumer groups for reliability,satisfaction,and deprecriation. Foriegn cars continue to kick the **** out of American cars with the exception of the Ford F-150 pick up and even there the consumer groups also highly recomend the Toyota Tundra and the Tundra was rated higher in reliability and customer satisfaction and of course depreciation. So how do you figure that there are american cars just as good that are not being discovered? I am sitting here looking at the Consumer Reports annual auto issue reporting on 2001 cars and best/worst used cars and the American cars don't come close. Foriegn cars are clearly the best value. In a list of used cars to avoid, American cars not surprisingly make up about 80% of the list. On the "Good Bet" list there are only 2 American cars The Escort and the Prizm. The young people are not automatically dissin' American cars on false info. I would argue that they are smart consumers buying the best product they can for the money.

Anyway when you start this kind of debate you really have to think how huge of a topic it really is. What about clothes? Kid's clothes and toys? I bet you buy the best cheapest product you can and never "consider the impact of buying all those foriegn made goods". Give me a break please! When I see you advocating for buying $20 dollar t-shirts made in America buy American workers being paid a "living wage" and walking right past the better t-shirt made in Honduras that cost $5 then we can begin to talk about this car thing. The big 3 have made more money than god selling Americans whatever crap they manufactured for what about 70 years before the foriegn cars started selling a better product for the money. All they have to do is make a good car for a reasonable price and people will buy them up like crazy. This country is about money and "Money is what makes the world go round".

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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.

"So now I’m an intolerant nationalist??? WTH? I am probably one of the most "tolerant" people you will ever meet in respect to other races and cultures. Nationalist? I think a little nationalism in everyone is a good thing but I am not fighting to pull the U.S. from NATO or anything!"

As far as I am concerned nationalism is just as bad as racism. Infact considering there is no genetic or scientific basis for the concept of race all questions of racism inevitably become tied with vague concepts of national identity. The concept of white people as the "real" members of the American nation while persons of asain decent are characterized as Japanese, Korean, or Chinese. Blacks are characterized as Nigerian, Ethiopian, or African-American. Latinos as Mexicans, Colomibians, Guatemalans. Catholic whites are even characterized as Irish, or Italian. Implying that these people are members of foreign nations. Obviously you aren't tolerant of other nations if the fact that American citizens drive foreign made cars bothers you. Im not saying you are a hate monger or a bad person, but i think you should be careful in advocating National Pride, as nations only exist in opposition to each other. To say USA over all, is not a very humanitarian or harmonious jesture. I try to think of myself as a member of the human race before pledging allegiance to a Nation from which others are excluded. Its not any easy thing to do but i think it is worth the effort.



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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -Nietzsche

LOL @ Freedom! You of all people know how many different cars, trucks I have had in the past 18 years (about 30, all of them used). YOU have also seen me turn a few wrenches. Do you honestly doubt that I know a few things about cars? Tell us, how many American cars you have personally owned? ZERO

(since I know you personally) I understand that you completely live in fear a broken down car and have no intrest in how they work (remember your Subaru?). Its know wonder that the Japanese car makers market to people like you. I have no doubt that the ave guy a the street is not unlike you too.

BTW, I do make an effort to buy American when faced with the option at every oppertunity. Does that mean I live in a completely "politcally correct" home? No way, but I make the effort and thats all Im advocating here.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

[This message has been edited by Fordman50 (edited 06-08-2001).]

What the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

Why is Globalization a good thing?

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

na·tion·al·ism (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

pa·tri·ot·ism (ptr--tzm)
n.
Love of and devotion to one's country.

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Nationalism, to me, suggests separatism and ethnocentrism. Patriotism is simply pride in one's country, not necessarily to the exclusion of the rest of the world.

I, personally, would consider myself a human first and an American second. If globalism connects me with other humans, rather than keeping me separate, as an American, then I'm all for it. I'm not a separatist, so why wouldn't I be all for globalism?

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

Originally posted by Aphasia:
I, personally, would consider myself a human first and an American second. If globalism connects me with other humans, rather than keeping me separate, as an American, then I'm all for it. I'm not a separatist, so why wouldn't I be all for globalism?




WHY? I think I answered pretty thoroughly above. Basically, if you are a "humanist" than you want to act in the best intrest of humans, right? With that in mind, you want to vote (with your ballot AND your money) for safe and non-exploitive labor practices as well as for safe working conditions where humans can work without fear of death or serious injury. Also a "humanist" would want to protect the drinking waters of humans downstream from factories. Almost NOTHING pollutes water like Auto plants (I used to do EPA work testing water) Heavy metals in surface waters cause mental retardation and cancer.


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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

I LOVE it when I get the last word http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Um, hate to say it, but I think you 'got the last word' because other people got sick of trying to argue this...

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

http://discussanything.com/Ubb/mad.gif

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

*pitchafit drives a SAAB*

Sorry ford, I just like 'em. They're damn good cars.

Thats OK, Ford has been making Saabs engines on and off for 30+ years now. Ford may even own saab now. BTW, I have driven saabs and I think they are POS IMHO http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif You live in New England? When I liver in VT, everyone had them

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Nah, I'm in the Marines stationed in 29 Palms CA.

The SAAB really impresses me. I mean it's got a 2.3 liter 4 banger, but it punches out 175 horses from that little thing with plenty of torque. http://discussanything.com/Ubb/biggrin.gif I get 30+ mpg, 0-60 in about 8 secs, and I've gotten it up to 135 with a little room still left on the pedal. Oh yeah, and the ride is soooo smooth. Like a caddilac.

My opinion...I would buy the new Yamaha Road Warrior over a Harley-Davidson without thinking twice about it. With a Yamaha, you get a much better product at about half the price of the Harley.

What is the patriotism in making a stupid economic decision?

I am no fan of Harley and have had a lot of rice burners so that is a tough topic. I am saving that for another thread.

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Winner of the "peoples Choice award" for supreme advocate for the people!

I'm not "always right", it just seems that way

Spelling is for kids! I think you got the point!

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Thats OK, Ford has been making Saabs engines on and off for 30+ years now. Ford may even own saab now...blah blah blah...

It's actually GM that owns SAAB now.

You are a really dilluted guy aren't you?
Do you know where most of your escorts and other Ford cars are made? Where are the most Ford parts manufactured? Where was the Jac Nasser born and raised?

That's right outside of the USA

You blab on and on about this car and that car being built by Nissan and Honda in forign countries because of the lax environmental regulations and low labor rates. SO DOES THE BIG 3.


BTW. How do you pronounce Dyimler-Chrysler?
The Chrysler is silent.

lol. That is a good one drunken master.

Not all fords are made out of country though.

Most trucks, mustangs, etc are made in the USA.



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Manu Narayan

True not all are assembled out of the US. The Taurus is still assembled in Chicago and the Lincold LS and T'Bird are assembled in Novi ect. But a large amount of the parts are built in forign countrys. They just save the final assembly for the US plants. Same thing Honda does with their Ohio plants.

Originally posted by Drunken Master:
True not all are assembled out of the US. The Taurus is still assembled in Chicago and the Lincold LS and T'Bird are assembled in Novi ect. But a large amount of the parts are built in forign countrys. They just save the final assembly for the US plants. Same thing Honda does with their Ohio plants.

Very true. The fact is, buying honda DOES pay some US workers salary in almost all cases...as does buying any car.

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Manu Narayan

Originally posted by Fordman50:
Thats OK, Ford has been making Saabs engines on and off for 30+ years now. Ford may even own saab now.


Ian, I believe GM owns SAAB now and Ford owns Volvo. To what degree the ownership is, I'm not sure. I'll check their web sites...

Here's what Ford has for brand names...Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Astin Martin, and Land Rover.

Here's what GM has for brand names...Chevrolet, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac, Oldsmobile (soon to be discontinued), Buick, Opel, HUMMER, SAAB, and Saturn.

All I know is that some of the old 60s Saabs had Ford V4s. My friend had one.

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