Is the ADL Hypocritical?
By Paul Grubach


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From the Washington Report On Middle East Affairs
April 2000, page 72-75


To Mr. Abraham Foxman, Anti-Defamation League, New York, Dec. 7, 1999.

According to the ADL's 1913 charter, your organization's "ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike, and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against, and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens." 1 Again in its position statement of 1980, the ADL made "ending racial discrimination" one of its main objectives." 2 In keeping with these stated moral principles, your alleged civil rights organization sponsors activities which urge people "to resist racial division," and condemns discrimination against Jews in housing as an "insidious form of anti-Semitism." 3

Others, however, have claimed that this ADL "moral agenda" is in reality a hypocritical ideological façade, a method by which to surreptitiously advance Jewish-Zionist interests under the guise of morality. According to this viewpoint, public opposition to racial discrimination is being used in the service of the ADL's Jewish-Zionist racial nationalism. ADL preaches universalistic equality and racial mixing for non-Jews while maintaining an exclusivist-separatist group identity for Jews.

Fortunately, we are offered a situation where we can test these two rival, competing hypotheses: Israel.

As the Jewish scholars Ian Lustick and Simha Flapan have shown, far from working for an integrated society in which Jews and Arabs functioned as social and political equals, the Jews who founded Israel created a society in which Israeli Jews dominate "Israeli" Arabs, a separate and unequal society in which discrimination is part of the established social order. 4

For example, 90 percent of Israel's territory has been legally defined as land which can be leased and cultivated only by Jews. Key institutions such as the kibbutz are reserved exclusively for Jews, as Israeli scholar Uri Davis has reminded us in his thorough study, Israel: An Apartheid State. 5

Let us now look at a specific case of anti-Arab racism in Israel.

Adel Qa'adan is an Israeli Arab who wanted to move his family into the predominantly Jewish town of Katsir, Israel. He was told that Katsir does not accept Arabs into the community, and the Katsir local council informed him that they will not sell houses or land in Katsir to non-Jews. In an attempt to remedy this injustice, Mr. Qa'adan has taken his case to the Israeli supreme court. 6 (See enclosure.) Clearly, this is a case of racial discrimination which the ADL should loudly and clearly condemn.

Here is my proposal: I would like for you to publicly denounce Israeli racism and offer your support for the Qa'adan family in their attempt to move into the predominantly Jewish neighborhood of their choice. A gesture such as this would prove that you truly are sincere, and the ADL really is against all forms of discrimination and bigotry. After all, as previously documented in this letter, the ADL has condemned discrimination against Jews in housing as an "insidious form of anti-Semitism." By the same token then, Jewish discrimination against Arabs in housing should also be condemned by ADL. "Diversity is our greatest strength" has become a standard slogan of the ADL. 7 If this be so, then let's make Israeli neighborhoods stronger by integrating Israeli Arabs and Jews.

I look forward to your response.

Paul Grubach, Lyndhurst, OH


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FOOTNOTES

1. Quoted in Lee O'Brien, American Jewish Organizations & Israel (Washington, DC; Institute of Palestine Studies, 1986), p. 93.
2. Ibid., p. 98.
3. ADL On the Frontline, Sept./Oct. 1997, p. 13; ADL On the Frontline, June 1998, p. 7.
4. Ian Lustick, Arabs in the Jewish State: Israel's Control of a National Minority (Austin, Tx., University of Texas Press, 1980); Sima Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities (New York, Pantheon Books, 1987).
5. Uri Davis, Israel: An Apartheid State (London, Zed Books Ltd., 1987).
6. See Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, July/Aug. 1999, pp. 14, 20.
7. ADL On the Frontline , Summer 1997, p. 8.


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Director Foxman Replies

Dear Mr. Grubach, Jan. 5, 2000.

I hesitate to respond to your letter which reflects such an animas toward Israel and ADL. Let me be clear that I believe you do not write in good faith.

However, because the issues of civil rights in Israel are indeed legitimate concerns, I am writing this letter. ADL is proud of its work in supporting Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, as well as working toward peace between Israel and its neighbors. At the same time we have engaged in programs and have issued statements trying to work for greater tolerance among all of Israel's inhabitants and toward a society where all minority rights are protected.

Israel is a great democracy, but not a perfect society. We hope that the coming of peace will enable all of us to focus on Israel's becoming an even more democratic society.

Meanwhile, what is so stark is that there is no other democracy, no other country in the region that has the fully independent parliamentary judicial and journalistic institutions which offer the only real hope for freedom. If you were sincere in your concerns about inequalities and nondemocratic manifestations, you would be focusing on the far greater Arab problems throughout the region.

Abraham H. Foxman, National Director, Anti-Defamation League, New York, NY


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A Reply To Mr. Foxman

To Mr. Foxman, Jan. 11, 2000.

The following is my response to your letter of Jan. 5, 2000.

You begin: "I hesitate to respond to your letter which reflects such an animas toward Israel and ADL." You falsely confuse "hatred" with "justifiable anger." I am indeed angry with ADL and Israel, and rightly so. In 1993 I was informed by the San Francisco Police Dept. that ADL seriously wronged me-your group illegally spied on me. Suppose the tables were turned, and I hired a private detective agency to illegally spy on you. Would Abraham Foxman then be hostile toward Paul Grubach?

Your intense Jewish ethnocentrism blinds you to the fact that much anger directed at ADL is in fact a normal psychological response caused by the collective behavior of the people within the organization.

The totality of evidence shows that Israel is responsible for numerous wrongs against the United States. For example, in June 1967 the Israeli military knowingly attacked the American naval vessel USS Liberty, killing 34 Americans. All of the evidence strongly suggests this was a premeditated attack, designed to prevent the American government from finding out sensitive information concerning Israeli war plans. Political officials are so terrified of the Jewish-Zionist power elite that Congress is reluctant to launch a determined effort to expose this act of blatant murder of American citizens and the subsequent coverup. 1

Your claim that Israel is a democracy is balderdash. Israeli Jewish scholar Israel Shahak writes: "The principle of Israel as a 'Jewish state' was supremely important to Israeli politicians from the inception of the state and was inculcated into the Jewish population by all conceivable ways. When, in the 1980s, a tiny minority of Israeli Jews emerged which opposed this concept, a Constitutional Law.was passed in 1985 by an enormous majority of the Knesset. By this law no party whose program openly opposes the principle of 'a Jewish state,' or proposes to change it by democratic means, is allowed to participate in the elections to the Knesset. I myself strongly oppose this constitutional principle. The legal consequence for me is that I cannot belong, in the state in which I am a citizen, to a party having principles with which I would agree and which is allowed to participate in Knesset elections. Even this example shows that [Israel] is not a democracy due to the application of a Jewish ideology directed against all non-Jews and those Jews who oppose this ideology." 2

Abraham Foxman, you yourself have highlighted an anti-democratic aspect of Israel: there is no separation of church and state, as the Jewish religion is forcibly imposed on Israeli society. In a speech on Feb. 13, 1998 in Palm Beach, Florida, you let the cat out of the bag: "Pluralism as we know it, separation of church and state as we know it, are not the same for Israel [and the United States]. Israel decided.that the state should have a religious nature. It established itself not like other nations, but as the only Jewish state. Israel has a Ministry of Religion; we [in the U.S.] have separation of church and state.What does it mean to have a Ministry of Religion? It is like having a Department of Religion in the United States, something we vehemently oppose." 3

Furthermore, Israel is not a democracy in the ADL's sense of the term. Where different ethnic groups exist in the same nation, ADL is a strong advocate of an integrated society in which all ethnic groups function as social and political equals. ADL preaches racial integration, racial equality and multiculturalism. None of this exists in Israel. In fact, quite the contrary.

The title of Uri Davis's book says it all: Israel: An Apartheid State. Ninety percent of Israel's territory has been legally defined as land which can be leased and cultivated only by Jews-Arabs need not apply. Key institutions such as the kibbutz are reserved exclusively for Jews. 4

Jewish scholar Ian Lustick has pointed out that the Israeli military is by and large a segregated institution. Most Muslim Arabs, who constitute the overwhelming majority of Israeli Arab citizens, do not serve in the armed forces-they are not conscripted, nor are they permitted to volunteer for service. This has important social consequences. In Israel, participation in the armed services is a prerequisite to social advancement and mobility. Cut off from the military, they are cut off from access to one of the main avenues of social advancement. 5

"We [ADL] have engaged in programs," you claim, "and have issued statements trying to work for greater tolerance among all of Israel's inhabitants and toward a society where all minority rights are protected." Many believe that ADL rhetoric such as this is meaningless, insincere lip service, designed to fool the public into believing that you really are a "civil rights" organization and not a bunch of Zionist hypocrites. I'm offering you a golden opportunity to publicly disprove this claim.

Adel Qu'adan is an Israeli Arab who wanted to move his family into the predominantly Jewish town of Katsir, Israel. He was told that Katsir does not accept Arabs into the community, and the Katsir local council informed him that they will not sell houses or land in Katsir to non-Jews. In an attempt to remedy this injustice, Mr. Qa'adan has taken his case to the Israeli Supreme Court. 6 Clearly, this is a case of racial discrimination which the ADL should loudly and clearly condemn.

Your letter to me has missed (or consciously evaded?) my bone of contention. The issue is not whether Israel does or does not have a free press or "independent parliamentary, judicial and journalistic institutions." Rather, it is that ADL ardently promotes racial integration, multiculturalism and racial equalitiy everywhere in the world except for one place-Israel. Here, ADL most ardently supports an apartheid, racially segregated state.

Mr. Foxman, I would like for you to disprove what I say by lending ADL support to the Qa'adan family in their attempt to move into the Jewish neighborhood of their choice. A gesture such as this would show that your organization does not harbor a hypocritical double standard.

ADL has condemned discrimination against Jews in housing as an "insidious form of anti-Semitism." 7 By the same token then, Jewish discrimination against Arabs in housing should also be condemned by ADL. "Diversity is our greatest strength" is a stock-in-trade ADL slogan. 8 If this be so, then let's make Israeli neighborhoods stronger by integrating Israeli Arabs and Jews.

Finally, you aver that if I were sincere in my concerns "about inequalities and nondemocratic manifestations, I would be focusing on the far greater Arab problems throughout the region." Wrong again, Mr. Foxman. The ardently pro-Zionist U.S. mainstream media focuses heavily on the autocratic, anti-democratic features of the Arab societies of the region, but they rarely mention the numerous sins of the Jewish state of Israel. In order to help correct this media bias, I choose to focus my writing energies on exposing the many sins of Zionism and Israel. If and when the day arrives that the mainstream American press devotes equal time to the inequities of Israel and Arab states, then I will gladly devote my writing energies to the problems of the Arab world.

In this context, let us discuss racial hostility, something which ADL purveys. I've asked numerous Arab intellectuals this question: "Why do so many in the Arab world hate the U.S.?" The answers are all the same. American foreign policiy in regard to the Middle East, they say, is made by white American politicians in collusion with Jewish Zionists. The American government is the major supplier and financier of Israel, which in turn uses American aid to oppress Arab people in the region. It is for this reason that so many in the Arab-Muslim world are hostile toward European-descended Americans. They see a Euro-American political bureaucracy united with a Jewish-Zionist power elite oppressing Arabs throughout the region.

And, Mr. Foxman, my Arab friends are basically correct. It is politicians of European descent, in collusion with Jewish Zionists, who have created the U.S.'s totally irrational and destructive unconditional support of Israel.

Just as it is socially and morally acceptable for you as a Jew to work for the best interests of the Jewish people, so too, it should be the same for Americans to work for their best interests. By exposing the oppression of Arab people in Israel in my writings, I can help to bring it to an end. This in turn will help to alleviate Arab-Muslim hostility toward Euro-Americans.

Paul Grubach

FOOTNOTES

1. See Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (Dec. 1999), pp. 28-34; James M. Ennes, Jr., Assault on the Liberty: The True Story of the Israeli Attack on an American Intelligence Ship (Random House, 1979).
2. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years (Pluto Press, 1994), p. 3.
3. ADL On the Frontline, June 1998, p. 10.
4. Uri Davis, Israel: An Apartheid State (Zed Books Ltd., 1987).
5. Ian Lustick, Arabs in the Jewish State: Israel's Control of a National Minority (University of Texas Press, 1980), pp. 93-94.
6. See Washington Report (July/Aug. 1999), pp. 14-15.
7. ADL On the Frontline, June 1998, p. 7.
8. Ibid, Summer, 1997, p. 8.









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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

The ADL and similar organizations have been actively working on destroying the US Consititution and the Bill of Rights for years. Like many others who use race as a means to an end, they are hypocrites.

The only hope is for people not to live together.

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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

What is the point of these articles? That certain people within the ADL are Israeli nationalists? NO SH-T! Does that mean the ADL is trying to subvert American government? NO! I would like one example of the ADL actually harming someone in this country. I can provide plenty of statistics of persons attacked, murdered, and robbed by such "right-wing" nationalist and white supremacist groups as: White Aryan Resistance, The Order, Posse Comitus, The Minutemen, KKK, Aryan Nations, National Alliance, etc etc, talk about people subverting the constitution and morality.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

I can provide a list of people murdered by black muslims. What's the point?

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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
What is the point of these articles? That certain people within the ADL are Israeli nationalists? NO SH-T! Does that mean the ADL is trying to subvert American government? NO! I would like one example of the ADL actually harming someone in this country. I can provide plenty of statistics of persons attacked, murdered, and robbed by such "right-wing" nationalist and white supremacist groups as: White Aryan Resistance, The Order, Posse Comitus, The Minutemen, KKK, Aryan Nations, National Alliance, etc etc, talk about people subverting the constitution and morality.



If they live in America, running a group that seeks political influence and trys to limit peoples free speech to fit their agenda then they are hurting people in America. Then to top it off they are loyal to a seperate county, Isreal, and place that country's interests in front of America's. Not only that but they have a strong lobby in Washington pulling every cent of American tax payers money that they possibly can to send it over to Isreal to fund to oppresion of the Palestinian people. Futher more, the jews have control over the majority of the major media outlets. Making it possible for them to shape the public's opinion in any way that will help Isreal and any other agenda that Jews have.

Think about it.........

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

I think the Bormans would be interested to know they are Jewish..

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Red 86 GT


"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
Benito "Il Duce" Mussolini

Originally posted by Cosmo:
I can provide a list of people murdered by black muslims. What's the point?


Can you really? Were they Muslims when they commited the crime or did they convert to Islam while they were incarcerated? Did you just throw that out there for the sake of doing so?



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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

Yes I did. That is an interesting point you made, that blacks commit crimes so they can go to prison to become Muslims. Isn't there an easier way to do that? another question, were they racist before they went to prison or do they turn racist after they become Muslims?

All kidding aside, i can give you names of people who were killed by Muslims. I would start with Malcom the Tenth.

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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Damn it Cosmo . . . you beat me to it.



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Go ahead and call Cosmo "Chief" and Bill is "Fearless Leader" . . . I'm HAPPILY "Minister of Spanking"!!

Famous Last Words:
Socrates - "I drank WHAT?"

Originally posted by Cosmo:
Yes I did. That is an interesting point you made, that blacks commit crimes so they can go to prison to become Muslims. Isn't there an easier way to do that? another question, were they racist before they went to prison or do they turn racist after they become Muslims?

All kidding aside, i can give you names of people who were killed by Muslims. I would start with Malcom the Tenth.



I would urge you to be careful when associating Islam with racism. It is a f-cked up argument. Many blacks discover Islam while incarcerated and come out to live productive lives and never return to prison except to support fellow muslims. You must know that there is a difference in true Islam and what the Nation of Islam founded by Elijah Muhammed teaches. I would argue that even as extreme as some of the Nation of Islams teachings are that they are still not really racist rather they are sepratist. In recent years the NOI has softened their hardlines. I know many people that practice Islam that left the NOI because they wanted to practice a more "pure" form of Islam. Muslims are certainly no more racist than christians.
Check out the following:

What is a Slave Catechism?

White churches in the antebellum South were fully complicit in the slave system, even to the extent of providing a religious rationale for human bondage. The same was true in the North. In the South, however, there was also a serious effort on the part of churches and ministers to persuade the slaves themselves of the divine validity of African enslavement, and to convince them that their slave labor was commanded by God.

There were several catechisms, or books of religious instruction, specifically written for African American slaves. Following is the text of one published by the Episcopal Church in 1854:

Q. Who gave you a master and a mistress?
A. God gave them to me.
Q. Who says that you must obey them?
A. God says that I must.
Q. What book tells you these things?
A. The Bible.
Q. How does God do all his work?
A. He always does it right.
Q. Does God love to work?
A. Yes, God is always at work.
Q. Do the angels work?
A. Yes, they do what God tells them.
Q. Do they love to work?
A. Yes, they love to please God.
Q. What does God say about your work?
A. He says that those who will not work shall not eat.
Q. Did Adam and Eve have to work?
A. Yes, they had to keep the garden.
Q. Was it hard to keep that garden?
A. No, it was very easy.
Q. What makes the crops so hard to grow now?
A. Sin makes it.
Q. What makes you lazy?
A. My wicked heart.
Q. How do you know your heart is wicked?
A. I feel it every day.
Q. Who teaches you so many wicked things?
A. The Devil.
Q. Must you let the Devil teach you?
A. No, I must not.

As African Americans accepted Protestant Christianity, they discarded the interpretation represented by this catechism, and emphasized instead the Bible's and Christian theology's message of liberation. They identified with the narratives of Israel in Egyptian bondage, and of Jesus' redemptive suffering. In fact, the slaves transformed the established religion of the time and created something new: their own Afro-Protestant folk church.




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"Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them"
Martin Luther King Jr.
"You cannot separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom" -Malcom X

I wasn't speaking of Moslems, but of BLaCK Muslims. The title is a dead giveaway. I find it difficult to seperate screwy louis Farakhan from any of it. BTW, screwy lewy is the most admired black leader in a NY Times survey taken shortly aftr the Million Mna march.

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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

That's one of the reasons M-X was killed. He went on a trip to seek out truth, and he found it. What he FOUND was black AND white worshippers of Islam . . . living together in peace. He also found Christians and Islamic people living in peace, and a few Jews as well.

When he came back to the U.S. with a message of peace, it didn't set too well.

I'll be the first to say I admire him . . . the Paul version.

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Go ahead and call Cosmo "Chief" and Bill is "Fearless Leader" . . . I'm HAPPILY "Minister of Spanking"!!

Famous Last Words:
Socrates - "I drank WHAT?"

Originally posted by freedom:
As African Americans accepted Protestant Christianity, they discarded the interpretation represented by this catechism, and emphasized instead the Bible's and Christian theology's message of liberation.

You are partially right, but your time line is wrong and you are in denial of how important it was that whites, in essence, gave blacks their liberation from their black slavemasters in Africa. Their black African slavemasters were tribal chiefs, who working with Arabian middlemen, sold black to Europeans. Europeans did not enter Africa to hunt slaves, the slaves were already slaves of Africa "kingdoms" http://discussanything.com/Ubb/rolleyes.gif such as Dahomy, Ashanti, Sierra Leone, Gambia and the Congo. The blacks were so chaotic in capturing other blacks that Europeans observed that a seller would sell a slave one day and then the seller himself would be captured by a competing tribe and sold later on. Cherokee Indians in Florida, like black slaveowners were quite harsh with their slaves. At no time in American history were all black slaves. In fact free blacks in the US were allowed to own slaves except in Delaware and Arkansas.

In the 1700's Catholic Churches were primarily in Maryland and blacks were instructed by protestant thinking whites on the liberating themes in Bible, not the oppression of religious hierarcies that colonists were fleeing from.

A freed slave, Phillis Wheatly, was the most famous black poet of the 1700's wrote a memorial to George Whitefield, a white genius who delivered an estimated 15,000 public evangelical preachings to up to 30,000 people at a time.

To continue along this theme, here are some tid bits. The North and South used the Bible as the basis for arguing their collective views on slavery. David George was a black slave who ran away from a plantation in Virginia was enslaved by Natchez Indians who later sold him to a plantation where he set up the Silver Bluff Church in Savannah. In 1778, when his plantation owner departed during the revolution, George joined him and eventually set up a Baptist church in Nova Scotia. He later established a church in West Africa.

One of George's co-workers was Liele, a slave of a white Bapist deacon (just to clarify becasue many slave owners were Indians and other blacks). Liele exhorted fellow slaves and eventuallyestablished a church in Jamaica. In 1791, its members consisted of free blacks and whites.

Before leaving Savannah, Liele baptisted Andrew Bryan who were encouraged by their slaveowners to be converted to Christianity. With the help of white Baptists Bryan became the minister of the Ethiopian Church of Jesus Christ in Savannah which supposedly exists to this day as the First African Bapist Church of Savannah. He was harassed from time to time but his belief in the Bible helped him fight the good fight.

Of course after the Civil War, there were countless denomiations and reorganizations. Blacks had been primarily Bapist, Methodist, Pentecostals and independent, but Roman Catholic also became an alternative. In 1886, Augustus Tolton of Illinios became the first black ordained to the priesthood.

From the organized churches, black colleges began to emerge. Church bodies provided books and literature for the black community.

Freedom, i do associate the Nation of Islam with racism. Screwy Lewy Farakhan refers to white people as ice pooeple, without souls. Whites are referred to as the devils children and other endearing labels. Of course jews are marked for extinction by Screwy Lewy. Your are making a distinction between racism and separatism, is tht another word for SEGREGATION, or do I not understand the finer nuances of the movement. Oddly enough, I agree with Louis F, I don't want to live in the same polite society as him. Now if we could figure a way to get him to take the wiggers with him, I'd be happier still.

I know Louis F doesn't want to go to Africa to establish his new country, and since the southwest has been spoken for by the followers of AZTLAN, just where would his new "NATION" be?

------------------
The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Originally posted by maniac88:
If they live in America, running a group that seeks political influence and trys to limit peoples free speech to fit their agenda then they are hurting people in America. Then to top it off they are loyal to a seperate county, Isreal, and place that country's interests in front of America's. Not only that but they have a strong lobby in Washington pulling every cent of American tax payers money that they possibly can to send it over to Isreal to fund to oppresion of the Palestinian people. Futher more, the jews have control over the majority of the major media outlets. Making it possible for them to shape the public's opinion in any way that will help Isreal and any other agenda that Jews have.

Think about it.........



News flash there are American lobbyists in just about every stable nation on earth too. They routinely vye to secure diplomatic benefits for the US as well as protecting the interests of American companies and property holdings abroad. Thats just theway it works. I fail to see how the ADL is trying to undermine the US government. And so what if there are persons of the Jewish faith that own stakes in media outlets. Just because they have the same religious upbringing doesnt mean they are some how conspiring against gentiles. Did you know the vast vast majority of Congress persons, the president, and virtually all his cabinent are "christians"? I think thats much more alarming.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by Cosmo:
I can provide a list of people murdered by black muslims. What's the point?



Yup you are completely right. My entire point is that the ADL is not, and has never been a violent organization nor has it ever used terrorism, murder, violence in its agenda. We ought to be worrying about violent domestic groups if anything.


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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Yup you are completely right. My entire point is that the ADL is not, and has never been a violent organization nor has it ever used terrorism, murder, violence in its agenda. We ought to be worrying about violent domestic groups if anything.





How do you explain their ties with the jewish mofia? How do explain their support of Israel even though it is a bandit state and murders civilian men, women, and children?

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

[This message has been edited by maniac88 (edited 08-30-2001).]

Originally posted by maniac88:

How do you explain their ties with the jewish mofia? How do explain their support of Israel even though it is a bandit state and murders civilian men, women, and children?



Yup the Israeli state is pretty damn nationalist and does murder plenty of arabs. They are just as bad as the PLO. But you'll notice none of that is happening here. Hell the US government even supports them with tons of weapons and munitions. The ADL isnt the Israeli or US government though. Gee maybe you should move there, arent you into nationalism, racial separation, and genocide?



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Yup the Israeli state is pretty damn nationalist and does murder plenty of arabs. They are just as bad as the PLO. But you'll notice none of that is happening here. Hell the US government even supports them with tons of weapons and munitions. The ADL isnt the Israeli or US government though. Gee maybe you should move there, arent you into nationalism, racial separation, and genocide?




I actually agree with most of what you just said, thanks. Except I dont advocate genocide, just racial seperation.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

Originally posted by maniac88:

I actually agree with most of what you just said, thanks. Except I dont advocate genocide, just racial seperation.



Or maybe you are just to yellow to stand up for it. William Pierce and Ian Stuart are down with genocide, they're your heros arents they? They were on the cutting edge of the separatist movement werent they? Maybe they were just bigger men than you are, that they could come out and say it. Maybe they really believed in white superiority and you're just a poseur hmmm? After they finished wiping out the "mud people" theyd start right in on hypocrits and half believers like you, disgraces to real Aryans.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Or maybe you are just to yellow to stand up for it. William Pierce and Ian Stuart are down with genocide, they're your heros arents they? They were on the cutting edge of the separatist movement werent they? Maybe they were just bigger men than you are, that they could come out and say it. Maybe they really believed in white superiority and you're just a poseur hmmm? After they finished wiping out the "mud people" theyd start right in on hypocrits and half believers like you, disgraces to real Aryans.



Even if they ever did advocate genocide, wich they did not, that is their opinion. Secondly it's Dr. William Pierce. Also I am not a "half believer", know facts before you speak(type) or dont speak(type) at all. I will say it again, dont believe everything you here on T.V.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

Oh dear god...I can't even believe we're arguing racial separatism - the whole idea is just ludicrous. And it's just ridiculous once you start throwing around 'oh this black group hates whites' and 'this white group hates blacks' and 'AZTLAN has already claimed this land as their separate nation' (a claim they've staked because they were originally driven from that land, by the way...once I get back to school, I'll break out all my books on the modern Chicano movement, and we can have a field day with that one). None of these groups is any better than the other - I don't care if it's blacks hating whites, whites hating blacks, Hispanics hating whites, Christians hating Jews...whatever. There's no place for this sort of bullshit in the world anymore; it's just breeding more hate and violence, which is completely counterproductive. Once we can look at a black man and see just a man, or a white woman and see just a woman, then things will be where they should be...we're all humans, after all. Race shouldn't even be a factor in looking at a person. Culture is what's important, and even that is relative - there's nothing inherantly better or worse about one culture - what they lack in one area, they make up for in another. They may not be as economically prosperous, but maybe they've got a more secure social structure, or a closer connection with their cultural heritage, or something. Ethnocentrism just clouds your vision, and makes it impossible to objectively view anyone else.

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

So aphasia, am I to understand thta you agree with the Aztlan movement?

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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Can someone enlighten me on the Aztlan movement?

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Manu Narayan

AZTLAN is a mythical country thta will be carved out of Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California, Nevada, and Oklahoma. Theactual Movement to do so is the MEChA. There are oraganizations in Mexico that are pushing it as well as the MEChA movement in this country. The hispanic guy tht ran for Mayor of LA and lost is an activist in the movement. I believe his name is Villarigosia(sp?)You can go to a web site called AmericanPatrol.com for more detailed information. MEChA also has a website. Basically, these poeple claim they are entitled to this area because they will shortly dominate the population, because they claim the territory was illegally seized from Mexico, and they have a right as a cultural group to rule themselves. The movement is gaining strength on college campuses and activist hispanic and latino groups. It also has some sympathy with US citizens, who agree that the US has once again stolen land from the Hispanics. From her last post, it sounds like Aphasia has some sympathy for the cause. You can imagine the day in the not so distant future when they ask for Spanish as the official language of those states (note it is already difficult if not impossible to get hired by some municaipal gov'ts unless one is fluent in Spanish)and they of course fight against any English only laws (ones I am in sympathy which lol)If you visit the site take what you see with a grain of salt as they are admittedly biased (they re an advocacy group) but the sight mostly reprints articles from papers to educate people about what is happening around them, somewhat quietly.

I beleive given the weakened state of American culture that inevitably some area of the southwest will successfully break off from the US. I think after that is successfully done,(Ithink it will be done with very little bloodshed too)then other groups will start and then the fighting will begin as too late America recognizes that multiculturalism means disunity, The US may endure for while, but America the Beautiful will cease to exist.

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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Originally posted by maniac88:
Even if they ever did advocate genocide, wich they did not, that is their opinion. Secondly it's Dr. William Pierce. Also I am not a "half believer", know facts before you speak(type) or dont speak(type) at all. I will say it again, dont believe everything you here on T.V.



Whatever, you are a disgrace to persons of white skin all over the world. You're a hypocrit and a liar, as proven by your posts. You believe whatever propaganda your mutant peckerwood masters tell you. "Shithead" William Pearce advocated plenty of genocide, it right there in the Turner Diaries. What is it you "half-believe" anyway, that you are an ignorant honky? Because I fully believe that.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by Cosmo:

I beleive given the weakened state of American culture that inevitably some area of the southwest will successfully break off from the US. I think after that is successfully done,(Ithink it will be done with very little bloodshed too)then other groups will start and then the fighting will begin as too late America recognizes that multiculturalism means disunity, The US may endure for while, but America the Beautiful will cease to exist.



Oh yea,I definately see an increasing trend in racial violence and separatism here in southern california. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Go take your racist propaganda and shove it.


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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by Cosmo:
I beleive given the weakened state of American culture that inevitably some area of the southwest will successfully break off from the US. I think after that is successfully done,(Ithink it will be done with very little bloodshed too)then other groups will start and then the fighting will begin as too late America recognizes that multiculturalism means disunity, The US may endure for while, but America the Beautiful will cease to exist.


So "America the Beautiful" is different from "The United States of America"?

You're aware that America is an immigrant nation, yes? "Melting Pot"?

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-Curt

"There ought to be limits to Freedom." -Shrub

[This message has been edited by CGord (edited 08-31-2001).]

Multiculturalism means disunity? Uh, wasn't that a line from that 'save the white man' article Maniac posted a couple days ago? That sounds awfully separatist, and terribly ethnocentric/racist to me.

I think that MEChA's cause does have some merit (ie. they do have some claim to the land, and they do face a lot of discrimination and unfair laws now, such as those English-only laws you're so adament about, and they are exploited to no end, especially the farm workers), but I think that it, too, is a separatist movement, and I don't support that. If they were fighting for rights within the U.S., I would agree with them totally - they deserve that, and they deserve to have their voices heard. But breaking apart and having a separate place for their kind...well, that's no better than the white supremacists who want everyone else to go back where they came from. So, no, I don't support the AZTLAN movement, though I do agree with some of its basic ideas.

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

Originally posted by Aphasia:
Multiculturalism means disunity? Uh, wasn't that a line from that 'save the white man' article Maniac posted a couple days ago? That sounds awfully separatist, and terribly ethnocentric/racist to me.

I think that MEChA's cause does have some merit (ie. they do have some claim to the land, and they do face a lot of discrimination and unfair laws now, such as those English-only laws you're so adament about, and they are exploited to no end, especially the farm workers), but I think that it, too, is a separatist movement, and I don't support that. If they were fighting for rights within the U.S., I would agree with them totally - they deserve that, and they deserve to have their voices heard. But breaking apart and having a separate place for their kind...well, that's no better than the white supremacists who want everyone else to go back where they came from. So, no, I don't support the AZTLAN movement, though I do agree with some of its basic ideas.



If they have it so bad here why are the flooding it by the millions? Also they have no claim to the land unless they conquer us like we did them. So far their doing a pretty good job.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

Originally posted by maniac88:
If they have it so bad here why are the flooding it by the millions? Also they have no claim to the land unless they conquer us like we did them. So far their doing a pretty good job.



Seriously though, maybe YOU ought to leave the country so we can make room for some productive, peaceable people.


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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Whatever, you are a disgrace to persons of white skin all over the world. You're a hypocrit and a liar, as proven by your posts. You believe whatever propaganda your mutant peckerwood masters tell you. "Shithead" William Pearce advocated plenty of genocide, it right there in the Turner Diaries. What is it you "half-believe" anyway, that you are an ignorant honky? Because I fully believe that.



The first sign of someone losing an argument is they start resorting to personal insults. Please tell me when I have been a "hypocrite and a liar". Also, I think you are the one who believes whatever you are told by your television. Think about it, my beliefs go totally against the grain while yours go exactly with what the system has been drilling into our heads since we can remember. So who is brainwashed? "half-believe"??? What are you talking about? Please explain. Also remember the "Turner Diaries" is just fiction.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

[This message has been edited by maniac88 (edited 09-01-2001).]

Originally posted by maniac88:
The first sign of someone losing an argument is they start resorting to personal insults. Please tell me when I have been a "hypocrite and a liar". Also, I think you are the one who believes whatever you are told by your television. Think about it, my beliefs go totally against the grain while yours go exactly with what the system has been drilling into our heads since we can remember. So who is brainwashed? "half-believe"??? What are you talking about? Please explain. Also remember the "Turner Diaries" is just fiction.



Im not arguing with you, theres nothing to argue. You're irrational and unobjective, i refuse to treat you like a human being until you consent to treat all other people as humans too. Im sorry but when i have to deal with ignorance, lies, and irrationality then im forced toi adopt crude language and irrational behaviour that a pea brain like you can understand.
Keep in mind the Turner Diaries is the blueprint McVeigh said inspired him to murder 200 odd people.


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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Im not arguing with you, theres nothing to argue. You're irrational and unobjective, i refuse to treat you like a human being until you consent to treat all other people as humans too. Im sorry but when i have to deal with ignorance, lies, and irrationality then im forced toi adopt crude language and irrational behaviour that a pea brain like you can understand.
Keep in mind the Turner Diaries is the blueprint McVeigh said inspired him to murder 200 odd people.




Who is being irrational? I think you. Also,when have I lied? Dont just call me a liar, prove me wrong. I'm not even going to touch the pea brain comment.


So let me get this straight, If you(codychaos) were to write a horror book about a mass murderer lets say. Should you be held responsible if some guy copies what he read in your book? Would that be your fault?

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

Originally posted by maniac88:
Who is being irrational? I think you. Also,when have I lied? Dont just call me a liar, prove me wrong. I'm not even going to touch the pea brain comment.


So let me get this straight, If you(codychaos) were to write a horror book about a mass murderer lets say. Should you be held responsible if some guy copies what he read in your book? Would that be your fault?



Yup im stooping down to your level of irrationality and baseness so you can understand what im saying crystal clear.
What book ive never written any books? Hey what if William Pierce was a violent fascist who wrote a graphic novel that inspired a vicious gang of white supremacists called the Order to murder a half dozen people and engage in shootouts with armored car guards and police all across the Nortwest US (just like in the book) and then the same book inspired another white supremacist to blow up a federal office building with a car bomb just like in the book???? Oh wait thats already happened. And oh wait you're a member of the organization that the author founded!



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by maniac88:
Who is being irrational? I think you. Also,when have I lied? Dont just call me a liar, prove me wrong. I'm not even going to touch the pea brain comment.




What else could i call you? Its what you are. Youve posted lies all up and down this site bout the holocaust being false, you claimed no evidence exists, then you claimed the evidence is prohibited from public view, then youve claimed not to be a hypocrite. What can I say? If you arent a tremendous hypocrite then you must be a racist and a liar. Youve not given an ounce of proof to go along with your posts and articles.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by maniac88:
If they have it so bad here why are the flooding it by the millions? Also they have no claim to the land unless they conquer us like we did them. So far their doing a pretty good job.



They're coming here to take advantage of the opportunities America presents, same as immigrants to this country have been doing for hundreds of years. I don't have all the details in front of me right now, but the Chicanos were tricked and forced out of a lot of their land over the years, starting (I believe) with the Spanish conquistadors. Again, I don't have the literature sitting in front of me right now, so I don't want to get into arguing details, but they did have a claim to the land initially, and it was unfairly taken from them. While I don't support a separate Chicano nation, I do think that we should recognize that we're not necessarily in the right on this issue.

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"I have no regrets. Regret only makes wrinkles." - Sophia Loren

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
What else could i call you? Its what you are. Youve posted lies all up and down this site bout the holocaust being false, you claimed no evidence exists, then you claimed the evidence is prohibited from public view, then youve claimed not to be a hypocrite. What can I say? If you arent a tremendous hypocrite then you must be a racist and a liar. Youve not given an ounce of proof to go along with your posts and articles.



Point out where I was wrong. Also I would love to see your facts too.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

[This message has been edited by maniac88 (edited 09-01-2001).]

Originally posted by maniac88:
Point out were I was wrong. Also I would love to see your facts too.



No you're completely right about that. So when did you become a neo-nazi? Was your daddy one or was he a black guy? Maybe thats where all this venom comes from.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
No you're completely right about that. So when did you become a neo-nazi? Was your daddy one or was he a black guy? Maybe thats where all this venom comes from.




Listen bro, I'm going to start ignoring posts if they keep up the way they are. Show some class.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

[This message has been edited by maniac88 (edited 09-01-2001).]

Originally posted by maniac88:

Listen bro, I'm going to start ignoring posts if they keep up the way they are. Show some class.



I sympathesize with you, its virtually impossible to back up any of that racialist and holocaust denial stuff. Man i dont envy your position one bit. Tough breaks.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

[This message has been edited by CodyChaos (edited 09-01-2001).]

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Oh yea,I definately see an increasing trend in racial violence and separatism here in southern california. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Go take your racist propaganda and shove it.


Cody, at least read what I wrote. I said I think it will happen peacefully. Even Aphasia admits Aztlan is a separatist movement, one for which she has some sympathy. Ok, you've made it clear you don't like me, that doesn't mean you can't talk with someone does it, civilly? If you can't stand me than don't read what I write or don't respnd to it. Or show me where I am wrong. Just calling names and telling me to shove it accomplishes what? Nothing. Its especially wasteful as I don't think I am what you accuse me of. Again, you are confusing race with culture.



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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Originally posted by CGord:
So "America the Beautiful" is different from "The United States of America"?

You're aware that America is an immigrant nation, yes? "Melting Pot"?


Curt, I am aware that America used to be the melting pot. We all blended in some way to make America. We are no longer blending, hence the term multicultural. We are multi racial its true, but that kind of blending will take hundreds of years and I don't think is as big a problem. My point is we have changed, are changeing, and not for the better.



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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Originally posted by Aphasia:
Multiculturalism means disunity? Uh, wasn't that a line from that 'save the white man' article Maniac posted a couple days ago? That sounds awfully separatist, and terribly ethnocentric/racist to me.

I think that MEChA's cause does have some merit (ie. they do have some claim to the land, and they do face a lot of discrimination and unfair laws now, such as those English-only laws you're so adament about, and they are exploited to no end, especially the farm workers), but I think that it, too, is a separatist movement, and I don't support that. If they were fighting for rights within the U.S., I would agree with them totally - they deserve that, and they deserve to have their voices heard. But breaking apart and having a separate place for their kind...well, that's no better than the white supremacists who want everyone else to go back where they came from. So, no, I don't support the AZTLAN movement, though I do agree with some of its basic ideas.



I disagee with you. The article you read may have been racist, separatist and ethnocentric but i am only ethnocentric, in that I believe America is the best country in the world. You can't possibly get separatism out of what i wrote, you are projecting there. i think multiculturalism is inherently seperatist and leads to movements like AZTLAN. I don't see how youget racism out of what i wrote at all. Again, you may be projecting because of your poor opinion of me.

But if I am wrong show me. Where is what I wrote, racist or seperatist.



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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

RE: Cody Choas,

I would like to know your racial background. Are you Jewish ? I feel that it would help me to communicate better during any debate we may have in the future.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

Originally posted by Cosmo:
Cody, at least read what I wrote. I said I think it will happen peacefully. Even Aphasia admits Aztlan is a separatist movement, one for which she has some sympathy. Ok, you've made it clear you don't like me, that doesn't mean you can't talk with someone does it, civilly? If you can't stand me than don't read what I write or don't respnd to it. Or show me where I am wrong. Just calling names and telling me to shove it accomplishes what? Nothing. Its especially wasteful as I don't think I am what you accuse me of. Again, you are confusing race with culture.



Yeah then your littl;e diatribe concludes with:
"...then other groups will start and then the fighting will begin as too late America recognizes that multiculturalism means disunity"



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by maniac88:
RE: Cody Choas,

I would like to know your racial background. Are you Jewish ? I feel that it would help me to communicate better during any debate we may have in the future.



Im a member of the human race. As for your backgroiund you must be a cross between a bottom feeding crustacean and the WORLDS BIGGEST *******.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by maniac88:
RE: Cody Choas,

I would like to know your racial background. Are you Jewish ? I feel that it would help me to communicate better during any debate we may have in the future.



Secondly, there is no debate, its quite obvious you are a delluded and violent individual. Thats pretty obvious to anyone with even half a brain, i guess you just havent realized it yet.



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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

Originally posted by CodyChaos:
Yeah then your littl;e diatribe concludes with:
"...then other groups will start and then the fighting will begin as too late America recognizes that multiculturalism means disunity"


I would hardly call what I wrote a diatribe. I think if the US begins to break up, as the MEChA movement wants, other countries will contribute to our breakup. In our then weakened state (sometime in the future, and only if Aztlan becomes a reality)we wil be too week to exist, and other distinct groups may also agitate for some skpecia c0ncession. If you follw Chinese politics, you know that most of the military heirarchy of China believes war withthe US is not only inevitable, but deirable. I'm betting they will be the bad guy. I don't know if any of this will happen, but I do believe it can happen. I want the US to remain UNITED and strong, a far cry from what a separatist would want. Don't confuse me with Maniac or ASSfly.



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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Cosmo, get over it. Aztlan will never become a reality, just like some sort of all white country will never exist in the US. Aztlan and the White Sepratist/Supremacist movements are tiny groups, of deluded individuals, who are far too bitter and crazed to ever contribute any meaningful changes to society.

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"He could not plead want of employment, nor incapacity of getting his bread in an honest way, but frankly own'd it was to get rid of the disagreeable superiority of some masters he was acquainted with and the love of novelty and change."

William Defoe on Bartholomew Roberts career of piracy

I agree about white seperatists, like most people I believe they are a bunch of kooks, and have no sympathy for their agenda. That is what makes MEChA different, they find sympathy outside their movement. Read again what Aphasia wrote, she is not syaing she agrees, but she does say she has some sympathy for the movement. Many liberals do. And that is the big difference. If the AZTLAN movement can keep away from violence, and I think they can, I believe they have a real chance accomplishing what they want.

You might think I'm nuts,(sometimes I think so too) but there are some believers in that movement gaining power. It is conceded that with the growth of the Hispanic population in the LA area that Villegerosia(sp?) will win the next election(he only just barely lost)The scary thing is that some very intelligent, well informed people have still not heard of the movement. Manu is a good example, and I think you and I can agree he is pretty sharp, and well informed. Had you heard of it?

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The truth is the hellhound that gnaws at the heels of those that lie and accuse you of oppressing them!

future Emperor in need of a cabinet(except Minister of Spanking)until then you can call me Chief!

Willie and Al smoke shrub but never inhaled!

Conservatives are RACIST-the world according to IAN.

Originally posted by Cosmo:
I agree about white seperatists, like most people I believe they are a bunch of kooks, and have no sympathy for their agenda. That is what makes MEChA different, they find sympathy outside their movement. Read again what Aphasia wrote, she is not syaing she agrees, but she does say she has some sympathy for the movement. Many liberals do. And that is the big difference. If the AZTLAN movement can keep away from violence, and I think they can, I believe they have a real chance accomplishing what they want.

You might think I'm nuts,(sometimes I think so too) but there are some believers in that movement gaining power. It is conceded that with the growth of the Hispanic population in the LA area that Villegerosia(sp?) will win the next election(he only just barely lost)The scary thing is that some very intelligent, well informed people have still not heard of the movement. Manu is a good example, and I think you and I can agree he is pretty sharp, and well informed. Had you heard of it?



Its already happening! Have you ever heard of "reconquista"? Even if we stop all immigration, legal and illegal, their birth rates are so high that they eventually still become the majority.

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"No longer will weaklings rule the White Man by lies and deceit, but, the warrior will make his comeback, and rule by strength, honesty and love for his race."


IAN STUART

Cody . . . hehehehe . . .they said the same thing about the Nazis in Germany . . . LOL! No poo-poo . . . they did.

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Go ahead and call Cosmo "Chief" and Bill is "Fearless Leader" . . . I'm HAPPILY "Minister of Spanking"!!

Famous Last Words:
Socrates - "I drank WHAT?"