In keeping with it's role of taking the moral high ground in North America the Canadians do the right thing and the USA, as usual, thumb their noses at justice. Moral? We'll bring you to justice but we won't offer justice!


Andrew Mayeda, CanWest News Service
Published: Saturday, January 27, 2007 Article tools
OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Stephen Harper apologized Friday to Maher Arar for Canada's role in his "terrible ordeal" and announced he will receive $10.5 million in a legal settlement with the government, the largest compensation package for an individual in Canadian history.

"We cannot go back and fix the injustice that occurred to Mr. Arar. However, we can make changes to lessen the likelihood that something like this will ever happen again," said Harper.

The prime minister also delivered a measured reproach to the United States for keeping Arar on its terrorist watch list, despite Canada's insistence he does not represent a threat. "The government of Canada has every right to go to bat for one of its citizens when the government believes a Canadian is being unfairly treated by another country.

Arar, a Canadian engineer born in Syria, was detained by U.S. authorities at a New York airport in 2002 and deported to Syria, where he was imprisoned and tortured.

A judicial inquiry led by Justice Dennis O'Connor found the RCMP mislabelled him as an Islamic extremist with suspected ties to al-Qaida. It also concluded the sharing of that misinformation with U.S. authorities likely led them to deport him.

Washington will keep Maher Arar on a security watch list for the time being, saying it has independent information that warrants keeping him out of the country.

U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff conveyed that information to Canada's Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day in a letter dated Jan. 16 of this year.

But it appears Canadian public security authorities have already seen the secret file on Arar.

On Jan. 17, a day after the letter was dated, Day met with Chertoff in Washington. Day said Canadian authorities had seen the new information provided by the U.S. and that there was "nothing new" in the file that warrants that Arar remain on the list.

"He should not be on a watch list,'' Day said then.

Wonder why he's still on the terrorist list? To avoid culpability in a law suit, of course. Looks like the CIA, FBI, and Mosaad have many things in common.

Mr. Arar had brought a lawsuit against United States officials that was dismissed by a lower court but was being appealed.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/22/arar-list.html?ref=rss
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=54e0c760-750d-4b18-9f6d-15501296a7b2&k=69081

Hope 'lil Arar gets mad enough never to come back to the USA even if taken off the terrorist list. One more Muslim down.

If we have to get rid of them one at a time... well, we better get a move on.

$10.5 even in Canadian dollars is alot right?

How do you get put on one of these lists?

Hope 'lil Arar gets mad enough never to come back to the USA even if taken off the terrorist list. One more Muslim down.

If we have to get rid of them one at a time... well, we better get a move on.

Condescending, bigoted, unrepentant, arrogant... these are the words that come to mind after reading your post.

You might be taken more seriously if you could recognize your country does something wrong, every once in a blue moon. But even when it has obviously made a big mistake, you just bulldoze on.
There will always be terrorists and people who dislike America as long as Americans such as yourself keep that attitude. As is so often the case, your very nature ensures the perpetuation of your enemies.

Lets take a concrete example. This man was kidnapped and tortured. If he read your post, it is not a huge leap to imagine he might want to kill you. So there is a potential future out there in which you could be hurt or killed by a man who had nothing against you, indeed nothing to do with you at all, until you decided to turn his horrific story on its head and make him out as the bad guy. A potential future that could easily be avoided if you weren't the enormous bigot with a superiority complex that you are, and were instead capable of giving credit and blame where it is due.

Think about this, and ask yourself whether you really, deep down inside at your very core, want to solve this problem of anti-American terrorism. Its never too late to change.

M.

So how exactly is the US and Canada 'responsible' for the Syrian government alledgedly torturing him?

Any country with any sense of self-preservation will automatically put Syrian nationals on a watch list, anyway; Syria rarely hands out passports to people who aren't vetted and firmly in their government's camp, and they're notorious liars and murderers to boot, so any claims by them or their citizens are suspect and not to be taken at face value, except, of course, notwithstanding the ardent support given them by hypocrites and terrorist fan boys.

There will always be terrorists and people who dislike America as long as Americans such as yourself keep that attitude. As is so often the case, your very nature ensures the perpetuation of your enemies.

Hilarious ... as if Americans should give a rat's ass what a bunch of 'Peace Left' phonies think; we already know what frauds most other governments are, and we know how shallow all this 'criticism' is.

So how exactly is the US and Canada 'responsible' for the Syrian government alledgedly torturing him?


Who exactly claimed they are responsible for Syria torturing Arar?
They are responsible for his erroneous deportation which led to the torture and incarceration. The difference is subtle, but I don't see anyone here actually not seeing that difference. So what are you talking about?


Any country with any sense of self-preservation will automatically put Syrian nationals on a watch list, anyway;


What does this have to do with deporting?


Syria rarely hands out passports to people who aren't vetted and firmly in their government's camp, and they're notorious liars and murderers to boot, so any claims by them or their citizens are suspect and not to be taken at face value, except, of course, notwithstanding the ardent support given them by hypocrites and terrorist fan boys.


What do these claims have to do with the deportation?


Hilarious ... as if Americans should give a rat's ass what a bunch of 'Peace Left' phonies think; we already know what frauds most other governments are, and we know how shallow all this 'criticism' is.

Confrontational blather. This is a debate site. Its rather absurd to come here to say you don't want to hear what other people have to say. If you don't care what I think, just don't read my posts.

If you do read my posts and want to reply to them, have the courage to address the arguments rationally rather than applying antagonistic blather that does not respond to the arguments made. Its weak, and does not nurture healthy debate.

M.

Hilarious ... as if Americans should give a rat's ass what a bunch of 'Peace Left' phonies think; we already know what frauds most other governments are, and we know how shallow all this 'criticism' is.

Speak for yourself sir.

Who exactly claimed they are responsible for Syria torturing Arar?

Ah, the usual resort to vapid sophistry when called out on particularly inane hyperbole ...

They are responsible for his erroneous deportation which led to the torture and incarceration.

Actually, some 100 years of terrorism, genocidal cretinism, and just general ongoing murderous atavism by Arab countries, especially Syria, are responsible, but of course let's just stick to inserting specious, conflated speeches about 'da ugly Americans' and all that stuff into the topic,, which has nothing to do with anything, either, other than just wanting to segway it it into the topic ...

The difference is subtle, but I don't see anyone here actually not seeing that difference.

Well, let's go back and read your 'acknowledgement', not that there is a 'subtle difference', it's pretty much common sense for Americans to deport people they've been warned about, and as was noted, the US had other information, not just the Canadian warning, so that whole thing is a red herring on your part, and since these people have a credibility somewhere near zero in their claims of 'torture' or anything else, including what they say about weather, there is nothing there, either, but that didn't keep you from spouting this banality ...

Lets take a concrete example. This man was kidnapped and tortured. If he read your post, it is not a huge leap to imagine he might want to kill you. So there is a potential future out there in which you could be hurt or killed by a man who had nothing against you, indeed nothing to do with you at all, until you decided to turn his horrific story on its head and make him out as the bad guy. A potential future that could easily be avoided if you weren't the enormous bigot with a superiority complex that you are, and were instead capable of giving credit and blame where it is due.

So, outside of you making a fatuous attempt at moralizing and implying a false pretense of actually having any morals yourself, indulging in some pseudo-psychoanalyisis, and generalized posturing, you assert he was 'kidnapped', and take at face value his claim he was 'tortured', etc., and make absolutely no mention or bother to berate the Syrians, but instead launch into some propogandistic blather about some poster.

Now, I know this kind of silliness and name-calling is what you and some other wannabees here consider 'debating', but as usual it is merely poorly disguised name-calling, insults, and the usual insipid piss-ant hypocrisy practiced by those educated beyond their mental capabilities, but it isn't even close to debate, so try and peddle your shallow attempts at 'intellectualism' to the other terrorist fan boys here, Hero, because you can't pull it off too well. The rest of your post is merely more of the same drivel and even weaker.

But keep practicing, Dude; you'll never be a master at it, being ethically handicapped and all, and very likely not even aware of it, but you can get marginally better over a decade or two, but you'll have to work at it, and it's doubtful you will.

Ah, the usual resort to vapid sophistry when called out on particularly inane hyperbole ...


Well lets see how well you fare against my 'vapid sophistry'. Should be easy if my arguments are as weak as you claim. Its on now.


Actually, some 100 years of terrorism, genocidal cretinism, and just general ongoing murderous atavism by Arab countries, especially Syria, are responsible, but of course let's just stick to inserting specious, conflated speeches about 'da ugly Americans' and all that stuff into the topic,, which has nothing to do with anything, either, other than just wanting to segway it it into the topic ...


Let me see. If you are right, then how come deportation mechanisms throughout the Western world (of which the US is no exception) make efforts to not deport people to places where they might ostensibly meet with bodily harm?
The State Department and Homeland security seem to acknowledge their responsibility in the safety of people they deport through these very protocols, yet you still try to argue against their responsibility. In French, we call that 'etre plus royaliste que le roi', or being more royalist than the king himself.
In plain language, you will find it nigh impossible to argue in favor of an entity if the talking points you use are disgarded and in effect CONTRADICTED by the entity itself. I might add that the State Department and Homeland security employ thousands of very well-educated and intelligent people, which would place the likelihood close to nil of you being able to look out for their areas of responsibility better then they do themselves.


Well, let's go back and read your 'acknowledgement', not that there is a 'subtle difference', it's pretty much common sense for Americans to deport people they've been warned about, and as was noted, the US had other information, not just the Canadian warning, so that whole thing is a red herring on your part, and since these people have a credibility somewhere near zero in their claims of 'torture' or anything else, including what they say about weather, there is nothing there, either, but that didn't keep you from spouting this banality ...


You walked into check mate and probably don't even realize it.

First of all, this is not merely about deportation, but about deportation to a third country. The US should have deported Arar to Canada and let the Canadian authorities use whatever information they had on Arar guide their actions towards him. If the information was sufficient for the Americans to act on, then it should also be sufficient for the Canadians to act on. Arar is a Canadian citizen, and the entity that made claims about him being a threat was a Canadian agency, not a Syrian one.
You know this, and your attempt to simplify the debate to occlude this matter is not flattering of your objectivity.

As for the US having independant information, that is your belief - and it is something we can get no confirmation of. If you believe that the State Department has the extra info it claims to have merely because it says so, then you are a bigger fool than anyone here can help. Lying is a valued skill for any body such as the State Department in any country, the US included. It is an integral part of their job description to hide the truth, distort the truth, or fabricate their own truth - whatever serves the interests of the nation.

As for the claims of torture, how do you explain that the Canadian government is paying Mr Arar over 10 MILLION DOLLARS on the strength of the inquiry into his affair? That's not a gesture anyone makes lightly, particularly because of the precedent it sets.
Yet somehow, you are able to saunter onto an internet forum and flippantly claim none of it should be believed because Syrians are lying jackals.

Its sad really: it would seem you are powerfully out of touch with reality. If I'm wrong, please argue your position more convincingly, and address all of these points.


So, outside of you making a fatuous attempt at moralizing and implying a false pretense of actually having any morals yourself, indulging in some pseudo-psychoanalyisis, and generalized posturing, you assert he was 'kidnapped', and take at face value his claim he was 'tortured', etc., and make absolutely no mention or bother to berate the Syrians, but instead launch into some propogandistic blather about some poster.


I've already explained why at this instant, it is eminently reasonable to believe that he was tortured.

Why should I berate the Syrians?
Torture is a reality in many, many jail systems through out the world. Where is the point in me saying: 'bad Syrians, torturing their prisoners'! Of course its bad.
I'll tell you what is worse though: it is worse when a country which pretends to stand above such practices engages in it herself, and in this case unnecessarily sends people to such a fate in such a third country where torture is widespread.


Now, I know this kind of silliness and name-calling is what you and some other wannabees here consider 'debating', but as usual it is merely poorly disguised name-calling, insults, and the usual insipid piss-ant hypocrisy practiced by those educated beyond their mental capabilities, but it isn't even close to debate, so try and peddle your shallow attempts at 'intellectualism' to the other terrorist fan boys here, Hero, because you can't pull it off too well. The rest of your post is merely more of the same drivel and even weaker.

But keep practicing, Dude; you'll never be a master at it, being ethically handicapped and all, and very likely not even aware of it, but you can get marginally better over a decade or two, but you'll have to work at it, and it's doubtful you will.

Confrontational blather. Again. Carry on. You'll get yourself banned again and we'll all go back to being able to debate rationally.

M.

$10.5 even in Canadian dollars is alot right?

How do you get put on one of these lists?

I think its in the vicinity of 3 million pounds.
Yes, its a hell of a lot.

I'm happy for Amar, and really impressed with the Canadian government for taking this on the chin and recognizing their cock up.

M.

Blind, self-destructive, self-loathing, uninformed, foolish ... these are the words that come to mind after reading your post.

As to his wanting to kill me after reading my post.... it's what his people do WITHOUT reading any posts. Islam is a cancer and must be either reformed or eliminated.

The faults we face in the Global War on Terror are solidly from THEIR end. Islam has NO legitimate case. Not a SINGLE claim they make justifies their crimes against humanity.

This being the situation, there ARE no innocent Muslims. Until they stand up as a whole and say "no" to the death dealers in their midst, they are ALL guilty. None deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Well lets see how well you fare against my 'vapid sophistry'. Should be easy if my arguments are as weak as you claim. Its on now.

What do you mean should'? You never made any argument, just launched some personal attack against a poster expressing he/she/it/mutant's opinion; merely inserting unfounded assertions and claims is not an argument of any sort, just some dim, attempted pretense of playing games.


Let me see. If you are right, then how come deportation mechanisms throughout the Western world (of which the US is no exception) make efforts to not deport people to places where they might ostensibly meet with bodily harm?

Show where there was any indication his own government was going to torture him, much less proof they actually did.

The State Department and Homeland security seem to acknowledge their responsibility in the safety of people they deport through these very protocols, yet you still try to argue against their responsibility. In French, we call that 'etre plus royaliste que le roi', or being more royalist than the king himself.

I didn't argue against their responsibility, since they don't have any in the first place in that regard; their responsibility is to the US security, not to specious unfounded assertions by internet message board trolls faking 'ethics'.

In plain language, you will find it nigh impossible to argue in favor of an entity if the talking points you use are disgarded and in effect CONTRADICTED by the entity itself. I might add that the State Department and Homeland security employ thousands of very well-educated and intelligent people, which would place the likelihood close to nil of you being able to look out for their areas of responsibility better then they do themselves.

Yes, one the rules when you have nothing is to insert meaningless filler and shifting contexts, preferably with grandiose hyperbole. Many of us are already aware of this tactic. You're not particularly skilled at it.

You walked into check mate and probably don't even realize it.

Ah yes, another fave tactic when one has nothing; announce yourself a 'winner', despite all evidence and facts to the contrary. You confuse deluding yourself with fooling everybody else. You should move to a more dynamic country, one where the main tension and social dynamic doesn't revolve around a gnawing fear that one day the nation will be outsmarted by it's sheep.

First of all, this is not merely about deportation, but about deportation to a third country.

He was deported to his country of origin, not a 'third country', his home country. Duh.

The US should have deported Arar to Canada and let the Canadian authorities use whatever information they had on Arar guide their actions towards him. If the information was sufficient for the Americans to act on, then it should also be sufficient for the Canadians to act on. Arar is a Canadian citizen, and the entity that made claims about him being a threat was a Canadian agency, not a Syrian one.

Ah yes, the utterly baseless assumption we somehow owed Canada dibs on him, the country that houses the largest Hezbollah headquarters in the world ... truly priceless assertion ...

You know this, and your attempt to simplify the debate to occlude this matter is not flattering of your objectivity.

Hilarious, considering your utter lack of common sense and mindless assertions ...

As for the US having independant information, that is your belief - and it is something we can get no confirmation of.

There is no concrete proof Art Bell wasn't kidnapped by Alien Reptiliean Shapeshifters, either, nor can you prove their information is false; you have some knee-jerk belief that they are automatically lying, and that the US has to wait until some suspect actually pulls off some crime to get rid of them. We don't in the case of aliens, especially aliens from a virulently racist and long and well known haven for some of the world's most actively dangerous terrorist organizations.

If you believe that the State Department has the extra info it claims to have merely because it says so, then you are a bigger fool than anyone here can help.

The only fools here are you, so I take this as mere projection on your part ... go read some more dime store paperback 'exposes' ...

Lying is a valued skill for any body such as the State Department in any country, the US included. It is an integral part of their job description to hide the truth, distort the truth, or fabricate their own truth - whatever serves the interests of the nation.

Yawn ... which of course automatically means this guy was actually a disciple of Mother Teresa, and is only over here to feed the poor, cure cancer, shelter the homeless, and develop nuclear fusion, because obviously the US deported him, and the US is da most evul nashun in da woild, secund onlee to da joos ... we've heard that sort of silly assed 'reasoning' before; like I said, you're nothing special at it.

As for the claims of torture, how do you explain that the Canadian government is paying Mr Arar over 10 MILLION DOLLARS on the strength of the inquiry into his affair? That's not a gesture anyone makes lightly, particularly because of the precedent it sets.

They're morons, eaten up with some sort PC fantasy; it's not like the courts who awarded him the money are actually going to pay it out of their own pockets; it doesn't cost them a thing, and wins some political brownie points for the 'government's' elected officials. Big deal. If people want to play 'sophisticated cynic' on the internet, try to at least be consistent.

Yet somehow, you are able to saunter onto an internet forum and flippantly claim none of it should be believed because Syrians are lying jackals.

'Saunter' ??? Quaint ...

Its sad really: it would seem you are powerfully out of touch with reality. If I'm wrong, please argue your position more convincingly, and address all of these points.

You go first; I'm still waiting for some kind of argument at all from you.I guess we can wait a while, since you really want to just keep making hyperbolic and meaningless assertions; not surprising for somebody who spends his time pulling conflated and pointless canards out of his ass and stringing them together, hoping nobody notices you've said pretty much nothing in the entire thread, just threw out some unsubstantiated, ideologically tainted opinions, just like the poster you had to jump on and attack ...

I've already explained why at this instant, it is eminently reasonable to believe that he was tortured.

You've 'explained' nothing, just made some claims based on your personal fantasies about the whole affair; try to get it right. Your personal rationalizations aren't 'explanations'.

Why should I berate the Syrians?
Torture is a reality in many, many jail systems through out the world. Where is the point in me saying: 'bad Syrians, torturing their prisoners'! Of course its bad.

I see ... from your weird little world view, they, being the animals who actually did the alledged torturing are exempt, and this is because the US is evul ... yes, that certainly explains a lot; probably not what your delusions tell you, but the rest of us are pretty clear on what you're 'expalining' ... The Syrians are merely unable to control themselves, so they shouldn't be held to any standards of decency; and besides he wouldn't get any big payday from a Syrian court ...


I'll tell you what is worse though: it is worse when a country which pretends to stand above such practices engages in it herself, and in this case unnecessarily sends people to such a fate in such a third country where torture is widespread.

Really ??? Fascinating ... do you do windows, too? ...



confrontational blather.

Yes, and of course your posts aren't ... because you say so ...

Again. Carry on. You'll get yourself banned again and we'll all go back to being able to debate rationally.

When? Did you just get a new prescription med? Can't wait for you try it; I'm still waiting for rational debates around here, even though the comedy is much more enjoyable here ...

M.[/QUOTE]

Blind, self-destructive, self-loathing, uninformed, foolish ... these are the words that come to mind after reading your post.

True, but it's merely the fact that he would never have to suffer personally for his blindness; other people will, so it's and the danger to others is of no real concern of his. That's what is so hypocritical about these phony 'Peace Leftists' and their insipid little affectations.

Blind, self-destructive, self-loathing, uninformed, foolish ... these are the words that come to mind after reading your post.


Right, because I dare to see my nation is not perfect, I'm self loathing and self-destructive. Hehe... you know that's absurd, yet you say it anyway... Strange behaviour indeed.

I know that it is part of American culture to be raised to believe that publically accepting blame for something is self-destructive, so I won't be too hard on you for that one. The rest of the world views that as obnoxious and pathological.


The faults we face in the Global War on Terror are solidly from THEIR end. Islam has NO legitimate case. Not a SINGLE claim they make justifies their crimes against humanity.


This thread is not about Islam. Its about Arar and what happened to him. So don't try to deflect: why don't you try to make claims for why your disregard for Arar's experiences were in some way appropriate?
Hmmm? I won't hold my breath.


This being the situation, there ARE no innocent Muslims. Until they stand up as a whole and say "no" to the death dealers in their midst, they are ALL guilty. None deserve the benefit of the doubt.

That's complete lunacy. And it is precisely the way terrorists view America. The minority of terrorists amongst Muslims think that there are no innocent Americans. You are just as rotten as them in your 'reasoning'.
If that is the thought process you want to promote, don't expect the rest of the world to care when it leads you to where you are heading.

M.

That's complete lunacy. And it is precisely the way terrorists view America. The minority of terrorists amongst Muslims think that there are no innocent Americans. You are just as rotten as them in your 'reasoning'.

Of course you are correct that they "view" America like that. But, see, THEY aren't right. WE are.

The nihilistic, Europeanesque feeling that "nothing is right and nothing is wrong" is precisely your problem, of course. THEY started this war based on NOTHING legitimate. I do understand that you "dare to see (your) nation is not perfect". But it's deeper than that. Your post morals notion really extends as far as to imagine that your nation can NEVER be right. You turn the enemy into saints and your fellows into the devil incarnate.

My "disregard" for Arar is complete. It matches my disregard for all his Muslim ilk. We will not ever beat Islamofascism if we continue to double think our own existence. If we continue to allow doubts to cripple our strength they will continue to win.

The enemy HAS no humanity. There will be plenty of time for humanity after the war is done.WE should finish it... and finish THEM. Its US or THEM. I'd rather it be them!

So, Arar's "rights" are meaningless. Neither he nor any other foreign Muslim deserves them. And those legal Americans who are Muslim don't deserve much better.

This is war to the hilt. And it is one THEY invited.

Of course you are correct that they "view" America like that. But, see, THEY aren't right. WE are.


We all know that's your fundamental premise, MV. That you are right, even when you are wrong. That's exactly what I am saying to you: that you are incapable of conceding your errors.
A prominent entry in the intrinsic manual of American culture goes something like this: "even when you are dead wrong, just pretend you are right and some people will actually be fooled by it - if you made a costly mistake, deny all responsibility: the bigger and more costly the mistake, the more bold the denial should be".
And you know what? Its actually sound advice because within America, it actually seems to work: society rewards this type of behaviour. So I can't really blame you too harshly you for adopting it.
The fact remains that the rest of the world finds it obnoxious and absurd.


The nihilistic, Europeanesque feeling that "nothing is right and nothing is wrong" is precisely your problem, of course. THEY started this war based on NOTHING legitimate. I do understand that you "dare to see (your) nation is not perfect". But it's deeper than that. Your post morals notion really extends as far as to imagine that your nation can NEVER be right. You turn the enemy into saints and your fellows into the devil incarnate.


Where have I turned the enemy into saints? Care to quote something reflecting this?
Where have I cast my fellows as the devil incarnate? Care to quote me?
Ah, I see: all you have is baseless caricature. What else is new?


My "disregard" for Arar is complete. It matches my disregard for all his Muslim ilk. We will not ever beat Islamofascism if we continue to double think our own existence. If we continue to allow doubts to cripple our strength they will continue to win.


So you view recognizing some muslims as being innocent and worthy of compassion as double thinking your own existence? Do you realize how nutty that sounds?
I have Muslim friends. They are not terrorists. They are normal, decent people. If you were to display this type of disrespect to one of my Muslim friends, I would put you back in your place in a way you would never forget. My loyalty is towards human beings with decency and respect for others, and you are living proof that America doesn't have a monopoly of those traits.


The enemy HAS no humanity. There will be plenty of time for humanity after the war is done.WE should finish it... and finish THEM. Its US or THEM. I'd rather it be them!


Big words... Don't take yourself so seriously. I'd love for us to be able to meet over coffee with a Muslim friend of mine and see how you would behave. Something tells me you would be a pussycat in real life.


So, Arar's "rights" are meaningless. Neither he nor any other foreign Muslim deserves them. And those legal Americans who are Muslim don't deserve much better.


Blah, blah, blah I-hate-all-Muslims-even-the-ones-who-love-peace-and-denounce-terror, blah, blah, blah ...


This is war to the hilt. And it is one THEY invited.

Actually, the first act of war between our nation and Muslim nations dates back to the CIA overthrow of Iran's democratically elected prime minister in 1953.
You're wrong again. Lets see how you turn this into being right: I know you can do it. There's always a way... even if its just ignoring the issue, or saying something like: "well they asked for it". The only real value in conversing with you is the entertainment value of how you're going to maintain your 'I and the USA are never wrong' pose.

M.

rendition is bad, mm'kay?

MV, I think you should take your shtick on the road. You could do very well for yourself in a circus.

Actually, the first act of war between our nation and Muslim nations dates back to the CIA...

You invalidate your "opinion" right there. The FIRST act of war was when Muhammad began his evil reign.

I'd love for us to be able to meet over coffee with a Muslim friend of mine and see how you would behave.

I certainly wouldn't be afraid to attend your coffee. But, I would STILL hold true to my position that your Muslim friend is the enemy. And it wouldn't surprise me that you are friends with the enemy.

So you view recognizing some muslims as being innocent and worthy of compassion as double thinking your own existence?

No, I view treating a pittiless enemy with compassion a mistake. If I saw Muslims in any great numbers denouncing the extremists in their midst, though, I would not feel the way I do. Unfortunately, there are few Muslims who say a thing about the evil they spawn. Most fully support the end goals and actions of the terrorists they call friends.

Since they nearly to a person support these terrorists they are no different from them.

You invalidate your "opinion" right there. The FIRST act of war was when Muhammad began his evil reign.


Care to substantiate how it was an act of war?


I certainly wouldn't be afraid to attend your coffee. But, I would STILL hold true to my position that your Muslim friend is the enemy. And it wouldn't surprise me that you are friends with the enemy.


Anyone who doesn't think like you is a traitor to the USA, yes, yes, we know. *snore*


No, I view treating a pittiless enemy with compassion a mistake. If I saw Muslims in any great numbers denouncing the extremists in their midst, though, I would not feel the way I do. Unfortunately, there are few Muslims who say a thing about the evil they spawn. Most fully support the end goals and actions of the terrorists they call friends.

Since they nearly to a person support these terrorists they are no different from them.

So you recognize that some Muslims don't support the goals if the terrorists? It doesn't matter how many: you have just explained that you understand some don't. So what if Arar is one of those good muslims? My muslim friends are certainly not supportive of terrorists.

The trademark of the bigot is to treat a group as homogenous, even though it is not. The madness is most manifest when the bigot recognizes that the group is not homogenous but persists in treating it as such. Like you just did.

A man who is racist against blacks might say exactly what you said about having coffee with a black man: "hey, I'm not scared, but he's the enemy and I'm not surprised you have black friends". Then he meets the black guy, can't find anything wrong about him, but ten minutes later repeats that blacks are the enemy and the solution is to get rid of them all. Its really a form of sickness, MV.

M.

Care to substantiate how it was an act of war?

His "religion" declared war on the rest of humanity and it has never changed.


So you recognize that some Muslims don't support the goals if the terrorists?

Of course.

So what if Arar is one of those good muslims? My muslim friends are certainly not supportive of terrorists.

Then he is sacrificed for the sins of his people. He would have to do an AWFUL lot to prove he is worth saving.

The trademark of the bigot is to treat a group as homogenous, even though it is not. The madness is most manifest when the bigot recognizes that the group is not homogenous but persists in treating it as such. Like you just did.

This is why you Europeans won't survive this war and will be destroyed by Islam. You don't know the difference between "racism" and survival in war!

If Islam WAS peaceful, I'd have no problem with it at all. If even a large part of the Muslim world was vehemently against terror, I'd have no problem with it. Unfortunately, Islam is not only perfectly OK with terror it is an ideology based on terror.

It is a cancer to civilization.

There is a reason that it hasn't been reformed like Christianity was. It is entirely possible that it CANNOT be.

His "religion" declared war on the rest of humanity and it has never changed.


If the only way you can win this point is by going so far back in time that the USA did not exist yet, I'll let you use that crutch. After all, like I said, its amusing to see what backflips you have to pull off to come out still convinced you're right :)

It doesn't change the fact that the war we are currently engaged in is between the United States of America and certain radical Islamic factions. And the only clearly identifiable moment in history which sparked their ire for us was our overthrowing of a democratically elected and peaceful leader in Iran in 1953, who we replaced with a dictator who oppressed his people for the next 25 years.
I know you'll continue to sing and dance around this fact, so I'm perfectly prepared for you to do so. The only way one can bear to converse with you is if one kisses the expectation of intellectual integrity good bye.


Then he is sacrificed for the sins of his people. He would have to do an AWFUL lot to prove he is worth saving.


Spoken like a true terrorist.


This is why you Europeans won't survive this war and will be destroyed by Islam. You don't know the difference between "racism" and survival in war!


Arar wasn't pointing a gun at anyone.
You're pretending he needed to be sent to Syria because in war, selfish split second decisions need to be made. Pal: that is not the situation at all with Arar. His altercation with us was not a combat situation.
He was flagged as a threat because of Canadian information which proved to be erroneous. If we had done the logical thing, which was to return him to Canada so they could act on their intelligence and either deport him themselves, incarcerate him or whatever Canada does with their citizens under suspicion of terrorism, he would not have been tortured in a Syrian jail for months.

I guess one of the ways you manage to convince yourself you are still in the right is by warping the context of the issue at hand so you can appeal to 'survival', and grandiose notions of winning the war...
Not your most entertaining trick I'm afraid...


If Islam WAS peaceful, I'd have no problem with it at all. If even a large part of the Muslim world was vehemently against terror, I'd have no problem with it. Unfortunately, Islam is not only perfectly OK with terror it is an ideology based on terror.

It is a cancer to civilization.


What: are you under the impression someone here still doesn't realize you hate Islam? Well let me assure you once and for all: I think we do realize this.


There is a reason that it hasn't been reformed like Christianity was. It is entirely possible that it CANNOT be.

That's absurd.
Islam has been continually revisited, and it evovles like every religion does. How else do you explain the many flavors and approaches to it through out the world? If you knew the first thing about religion, you would gag at the idea of saying what you just said.
Islam, like every other religion on earth, is implemented differently with every new region, every new country, every new culture.

And taking the fact that Christianity is a less direct cause for violence in the world than it used to be says absolutely nothing about the likelihood of Islam also become a less direct cause of violence in the future.

How would we go about promoting the more peaceful aspects of Islam, anyway? A good place to start would be by not overthrowing secular regimes in countries that might otherwise easily fall prey to Islamic rule. Cough... Iraq... cough... comes to mind.

I eagerly await the next round of antics.

M.

If the only way you can win this point is by going so far back in time that the USA did not exist yet

Once again, you are woefully uninformed. the USA did not start this war. Muhammad did centuries ago. His cause was to convert or kill all non-believers. His people have been trying to do so since then. Today we are seeing but one more leg of the journey to that end.

Still, I understand that you need to ignore history to justify your claim that it is the USA that is the grand evil, the "great Satan", if you will, so that you can feel better about supporting Islamist terror.


the only clearly identifiable moment in history which sparked their ire for us was our overthrowing of a democratically elected and peaceful leader in Iran in 1953[/quote]

Wrong again, terror apologist.

The radical faction we fight was created by cooperation between Islamists and Hitler's Nazi ideology. They merely used the Iran incident as a catalyst. Your claim that we created it is absurd and empty of any knowledge of its history..

are you under the impression someone here still doesn't realize you hate Islam?

Now, why would you assume I would run form that claim?? Of COURSE I hate Islam. It is a cancer to civilization. I have said that dozens of times.

But, I feel the same way about Christianity circa the 15th century, for instance. But, after that time it had a reformation and that reformation caused it to be responsible for the creation of the most enlightened nation on the planet...the USA (and in some smaller instances various parts of Europe).

Should Islam get the same sort of reformation as did Christianity I would cease to have a problem with it.

Islam has been continually revisited, and it evovles like every religion does.
Man are you ignorant about Islam. It has had splits, yes. but FEW of them have reformed to peaceful levels. Usually those splits have been just excuses to kill more.

And taking the fact that Christianity is a less direct cause for violence in the world than it used to be says absolutely nothing about the likelihood of Islam also become a less direct cause of violence in the future.

More ignorance revealed. Islam is now and always HAS been based strictly on violence. It is NO "religion of peace".

How would we go about promoting the more peaceful aspects of Islam, anyway?


"We" don't except by killing so many of them that THEY do. they need to be shocked as badly as the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese did. So shocked with the carnage that their progeny eschew their parent's beliefs.

I'm afraid your response doesn't pass muster this time MV. You did not quote the most important elements of my post, and the elements you did quote, you did not even address directly.

It became particularly funny when you disagreed with my statement about Islam evolving, only to say that it does indeed evolve!

Tighten your debate with a revisited, more focused reply, and we might be able to move forwards.

M.

I'm afraid your response doesn't pass muster

Sorry, but am NOT seeking your approval. You are as much an enemy to modernity, western civilization and the USA as any radical Islamofascist.

Sorry, but am NOT seeking your approval. You are as much an enemy to modernity, western civilization and the USA as any radical Islamofascist.

Of course I am... *discretely dials the looney bin number and leaves the phone off the hook so they hear the rest of the conversation*

So, MV, tell us... uh, tell me how I'm the enemy?

M.

Malcom this opinion expressed above is unfortunately very representative of what many people in the world see as our biggest problem. Ignorance. We are ignorant of other cultures, ignorant of the geopolitical situation, even ignorant of our own motivation. This present administration unfortuantely has made an artform of appealing to that ignorance and it makes me mad as hell. For 4 years now as you said in another thread its been like watching a train wreck in slow motion. And I can tell you where this issue will end up too. Arar will sue the US Government, the case will last for many years, he certainly has enough money to fund it now, it will probably expand into a class action law suit of some sort and at some point once the reality of the mistakes made in Iraq and the civil abuses we committed hit home he will win his suit and wind up a very very wealthy man.

While Iraq was a colossal mistake the biggest mistake we have made was in abandoning our most closely held and treasured principles in the conduct of this "war on terror" . For that Bush and company should be impeached. The "great stain maker" isnt Billy clinton anymore and the stain is on our national honor not some aides dress.

LOL, wow. Few things are as pleasing to me as reading Malcom debate Mobile Vulgus. You restore my faith in humanity, M.

Canadians sure like to bitch a lot.

LOL, wow. Few things are as pleasing to me as reading Malcom debate Mobile Vulgus. You restore my faith in humanity, M.

That's an enormous compliment Optimus. You and others here regularly restore my faith in humanity, so I'm glad to be able to return the favor.

M.

Canadians sure like to bitch a lot.

This is funny coming from the man who if he complained any more than he does, would need a vagina installed.

This is funny coming from the man who if he complained any more than he does, would need a vagina installed.

:p Ouch!

M.

This is funny coming from the man who if he complained any more than he does, would need a vagina installed.

Ha, ha, gasp, choke, ha err., whatever.

You invalidate your "opinion" right there. The FIRST act of war was when Muhammad began his evil reign.

Mohammed - born c.570 died 632AD, and only 860 years later Columbus tries but fails to land in America, a further 284 years pass until America as an independent nation emerges

I certainly wouldn't be afraid to attend your coffee. But, I would STILL hold true to my position that your Muslim friend is the enemy. And it wouldn't surprise me that you are friends with the enemy.

"The enemy" - what a convenient catchall phrase, that is defined as anybody that isn't whitebread, Christian, Republican, middle class, anti-abortion and homophobic

No, I view treating a pittiless enemy with compassion a mistake. If I saw Muslims in any great numbers denouncing the extremists in their midst, though, I would not feel the way I do. Unfortunately, there are few Muslims who say a thing about the evil they spawn. Most fully support the end goals and actions of the terrorists they call friends.
Since they nearly to a person support these terrorists they are no different from them.

So, you have extensive opinion polls of Muslims world wide that confirm these statements?


Final note: "Muslim" is not a country or a nation, it is a religion, "Terrorist" is not a country or nation. If you are planning on declaring war on either you will have to selectively hunt down and exterminate them in every country of the world, I understand that the Germans had a similar scheme for Jews, perhaps you could use some of their methods?

So, you have extensive opinion polls of Muslims world wide that confirm these statements?


Final note: "Muslim" is not a country or a nation, it is a religion, "Terrorist" is not a country or nation. If you are planning on declaring war on either you will have to selectively hunt down and exterminate them in every country of the world, I understand that the Germans had a similar scheme for Jews, perhaps you could use some of their methods?

You're not comparing stinkin' terrorists to innocent jews are you

You're not comparing stinkin' terrorists to innocent jews are you


I was comparing MV's suggested progrom against Muslims to the similar one used in Germany...

Funnily enough Goebbels propoganda used to refer to "stinking Jews" ....

Perhaps, but stinkin' terrorists deserve death/and or concentration camps if necessary. First shower is free.

86 says...
You're not comparing stinkin' terrorists to innocent jews are you

and the other guy incongruously replies with...

Funnily enough Goebbels propoganda[sic] used to refer to "stinking Jews" ....

Amazingly, the second quote reveals the sheer stupidity of Europeans and other self-hating leftists where it concerns the reality of the world in which we live.

Saying "stinking Jews", is a racist, blindly ignorant statement. Jews are BORN that way (save for the ones who adopt the religious affiliation of their own volition, a far smaller number). "Jews" are often treated as a race, a people, a specific culture. Jews don't usually chose to be "Jews" for the most part. And those who say "stinking Jews" would not care if Jews did intellectually chose the creed as opposed to merely being born that way.

Saying "stinking terrorists", however, is free of such blind hate. Why? Because terrorists are not born that way either in fact, nor the eyes of their opponents. Terrorism IS an intellectual choice made in ALL cases.

To use "stinking Jews" as an expression of hate is execrable. To use the same language to express hatred for a terrorist, however, is perfectly sane and completely morally correct.

But, see, a European lacks the moral compass to understand this. They have so immersed themselves in moral relativity that terrorism could be thought of as a morally correct position for some people to adopt.

See, there is no right and no wrong as far as the fetid Europeans are concerned. In fact, the ONLY thing Europe sees as 100% wrong in all cases is an American (their only exception to their rule of moral relativity).

Saying "stinking Jews", is a racist, blindly ignorant statement. Jews are BORN that way (save for the ones who adopt the religious affiliation of their own volition, a far smaller number). "Jews" are often treated as a race, a people, a specific culture. Jews don't usually chose to be "Jews" for the most part. And those who say "stinking Jews" would not care if Jews did intellectually chose the creed as opposed to merely being born that way.

After reading this entire thread, I gather you feel that way about Islamists.

This is why you Europeans won't survive this war and will be destroyed by Islam. You don't know the difference between "racism" and survival in war!

If Islam WAS peaceful, I'd have no problem with it at all. If even a large part of the Muslim world was vehemently against terror, I'd have no problem with it. Unfortunately, Islam is not only perfectly OK with terror it is an ideology based on terror.

It is a cancer to civilization.


The Jews are a Cancer on the breast of Germany-Adolf Hitler



"We" don't except by killing so many of them that THEY do. they need to be shocked as badly as the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese did. So shocked with the carnage that their progeny eschew their parent's beliefs.

So, what is the final solution MV?
The A-bomb?

I keep seeing similarities as well, I think some people wish to exterminate every person they think is Muslim, the rhetoric does sound Hitlerish..

Damn, he only wants to slaughter a billion people, and he has the gall to call Europeans immoral and other ridiculous things..:nonono: :nonono:

Only a truly ignorant person who knows nothing about history, the world, and what world affairs could think that way.

I keep seeing similarities as well, I think some people wish to exterminate every person they think is Muslim, the rhetoric does sound Hitlerish..

Damn, he only wants to slaughter a billion people, and he has the gall to call Europeans immoral and other ridiculous things..:nonono: :nonono:

Only a truly ignorant person who knows nothing about history, the world, and what world affairs could think that way.
Seriously. His ignorance is boundless. It's funny, reading his posts you can almost sense the root being fear and hate. Which is really the foundation of ignorance. I've mentioned his hypocrisy before, how he wishes to exterminate entire groups of people and sits there drooling over his keyboard calling everyone else "stupid" or "immoral." He fails to see it. And that's because the best weapon for the ignorant is denial. Fear is also the root of denial. It's the same pattern over and over again, and it's the same pattern I see here regularly from the overly patriotic, bush can do no wrong, god fearing, war mongering, "moral" rightists here on this board.

It's getting boring. They're so easy.

I gather you feel that way about Islamists

... and so should anyone who values liberty.

So, what is the final solution MV?
The A-bomb?

That was pretty stupid. Where would you drop it?

Since it was Europe exclusively that suffered under the "Final Solution" of the German 3rd Reich pehaps American opinions ( from MV) count for little.

... and so should anyone who values liberty.



That was pretty stupid. Where would you drop it?

Might I suggest that a tactical nuke dropped on Washington DC might go a long way to solving both America's and the worlds problems. Just make sure Bush is home in the white house safe in his bed. Upstairs that is.

... and so should anyone who values liberty.
It is because I value liberty that I have trouble condemning others for their beliefs. Even if I don't agree with them.

That was pretty stupid. Where would you drop it?
Yeah, of course I wasn't serious either. It was more ar less a figure of speech; an extreme example of a "solution".
they need to be shocked as badly as the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese did. So shocked with the carnage that their progeny eschew their parent's beliefs.
So, what are your suggestions on how to accomplish this? And could you please explain exactly how, by doing this, you will acheive that result?

I was also interested in hearing a reaction to the comparison of your statement:
"It is a cancer to civilization."
to Hitler's quote:
"The Jews are a Cancer on the breast of Germany".
But I am sure you knew that and avoided giving it me.
I am just curious if it was some sort of allusion? Or if it was purely accidental?

Might I suggest that a tactical nuke dropped on Washington DC might go a long way to solving both America's and the worlds problems. Just make sure Bush is home in the white house safe in his bed. Upstairs that is.


Pathetic. Truly pathetic.
True moral confusion.
I'm almost speechless at such a level of ignorance and moral confusion

Might I suggest that a tactical nuke dropped on Washington DC might go a long way to solving both America's and the worlds problems.

No, toejam. There is no moral confusion in that. It is purely immoral. But, what do you expect from a Canadian?

No, toejam. There is no moral confusion in that. It is purely immoral.

Interesting point. I think we both are correct. Clearly the fact that he believes that the US is the cause of the world's problems is a sign of utter moral confusion.
The fact that he advocates a nuke in DC is clearly and disgustingly immoral.
So much for the notion of the peace loving left huh? I was pretty certain they were a violent group, this further confirms it.


But, what do you expect from a Canadian?

Canada traditionally has been a good ally of the US. Sadly, years of liberal rule and indoctrination has been harmful to the country. Hopefully the Conservative PM can undoing some of the damage.

Velocity,

It is because I value liberty that I have trouble condemning others for their beliefs. Even if I don't agree with them.

Liberty is not a suicide pact. You mustn't observe the "liberty" of those who's goal is to DENY you yours!!! It is self-destructive and incredibly STUPID to support the "liberty" of people who are in the midst of trying to kill you and destroy everyone else's freedom.

Liberty is not one way -- my allowing you yours. It is two way -- I allow you yours and YOU return the favor. The SECOND you stop returning the favor YOU should be summarily eliminated. We are now in a position off being faced with those who would eliminate our liberty. We have gone out of our way to allow them theirs to no avail.

NO MORE.

But, if you have no principle but mere "liberty", like most here who don't understand it, you do not love liberty but license.

...an extreme example of a "solution".

I offered no "final solution" in the way you mean it. I intend no such "solution" and support none.

So, what are your suggestions on how to accomplish this? And could you please explain exactly how, by doing this, you will acheive that result?

War to the hilt. Kill them grimly and without mercy. Swarm into their strongholds and kill everything inside. We know where they are at. We are too delicate to go after them.

I was also interested in hearing a reaction to the comparison of your statement:
"It is a cancer to civilization."to Hitler's quote:"The Jews are a Cancer on the breast of Germany".

I did address that. You obviously ignored it.

"Jews" was meant as a "racial" question to Hitler. I have no interest in race. I have no interest in wiping out Arabs or even Muslims. I don't really even care if Islam continues to exist. What I want is enough REASON for Islam to reform itself. They obviously need a push toward it. Rivers of blood will be the only catalyst they will understand.

But I am sure you knew that and avoided giving it me. I am just curious if it was some sort of allusion? Or if it was purely accidental?

Your assumptions of my motives do not interest me in the slightest.

So much for the notion of the peace loving left huh? I was pretty certain they were a violent group, this further confirms it.

MV
Rivers of blood will be the only catalyst they will understand.


:crazy:

I was responding to MV's question as to where one might most profitably drop an A-bomb. It was a joke. But yes I do believe the US administration is the greatest threat to global stability and in many cases acts as a barrier to any solutions. MV believes that wiping out muslim's world wide is a solution to the problem. All 1.4 billion of them. I do not believe that terrorism is that great a threat. Sure it presents some risk but in the scheme of things not that large a threat. Far less a threat than the US deficit in my mind.

America under the Bush administration has literally abandoned most of its most valued principles in this "war on terror" and it is in that area that the real damage has been done. Freedom, justice and liberty have simply become words in the light of the Bush administrations treatment of those it captures. The Arar case is just one example. Germany has another for which I believe there are charges being brought against CIA operatives. Italy and Spain both have investigations pending of other acts of gross disregard for individuals rights.

MV believes that wiping out muslim's [sic]world wide is a solution to the problem. All 1.4 billion of them

Moron. I said no such thing.

Moron. I said no such thing.
dude, warning.

I get a warning for calling a moron a moron, but HE can call me an advocate of genocide when I never advocated for such a thing?

Typical leftist "modding" there.

I get a warning for calling a moron a moron, but HE can call me an advocate of genocide when I never advocated for such a thing?

Typical leftist "modding" there.
i'm a leftist? LOL, that's rich. :p

I get a warning for calling a moron a moron, but HE can call me an advocate of genocide when I never advocated for such a thing?

You sure as hell have in other threads as well. Shall I dig them all up and embarrass you?

Typical leftist "modding" there.

You are seriously clueless, aren't you? Red's very conservative.

Velocity,
Liberty is not a suicide pact. You mustn't observe the "liberty" of those who's goal is to DENY you yours!!! It is self-destructive and incredibly STUPID to support the "liberty" of people who are in the midst of trying to kill you and destroy everyone else's freedom.

Liberty is not one way -- my allowing you yours. It is two way -- I allow you yours and YOU return the favor. The SECOND you stop returning the favor YOU should be summarily eliminated. We are now in a position off being faced with those who would eliminate our liberty. We have gone out of our way to allow them theirs to no avail.

NO MORE.

But, if you have no principle but mere "liberty", like most here who don't understand it, you do not love liberty but license.

Good argument, I struggled with that a bit before I posted the statement about valuing liberty. Unless I value it enough to die for it; total conviction in that one principle would make me a martyr.

I offered no "final solution" in the way you mean it. I intend no such "solution" and support none.

War to the hilt. Kill them grimly and without mercy. Swarm into their strongholds and kill everything inside. We know where they are at. We are too delicate to go after them.

I do not see how that will acheive the result you are seeking. IMO, it will only increase Islam's hatred of America, and increase the threat of terrorism in the future. Where has any progress been made there?

I did address that. You obviously ignored it.

"Jews" was meant as a "racial" question to Hitler. I have no interest in race. I have no interest in wiping out Arabs or even Muslims. I don't really even care if Islam continues to exist. What I want is enough REASON for Islam to reform itself. They obviously need a push toward it. Rivers of blood will be the only catalyst they will understand.

My purpose for comparing your statement to Hitler's was not an accusation but a (perhaps) poor attempt to illustrate how when one loses sight of the intrinsic value of ones principles, it can bring you dangeruosly close to what you oppose.

Your assumptions of my motives do not interest me in the slightest.
I wish they did.