Recently writer Ellen Willis died at the age of 64.

She was a major influence in my thinking,like me she came into her leftism from a blue-collar background,unlike many lefties who are "trust fund trendies".

She was a radial feminist and a democratic socialist and like me she was a anti-anti-Zionist and could see that some of the anti-Zionist rhetoric of the left was dangerously close to anti-Semitism.

Her best writing on left-wing anti-Semitism is the essay is There Still A Jewish Question link:http://www.journalism.nyu.edu/faculty/files/Willis-Is%20There%20Still%20A%20Jewish%20Question.pdf

Too bad she can't dissect the Palestinian point of view with the same "objectivity." I agree with much of what she says about Israel, but one cannot be an objective observer if one has no equally salient observations about the Arab Palestinians.

One also has to question her objectivity when she makes errors of fact.

1. The main thrust of Jewish immigration was from Eastern European Jews - mostly communists - the holocaust survivors did not come until just before the 1947-8 war by which time the intent to wrest a much larger area of land than ceded to it by the UN had been hatched by Ben Gurion and his cohorts. There was never any intent to "make do" with the UN plan.

2. The current occupation of land did not come from a "defensive war" it came from a so called "pre-emptive strike" by Israel that coincided with military rumblings from Egypt and Syria that had no serious intent. The precipitating factor was an Egyptianw iwithdrawal of access to the gulf. It came at a time that Israel had decided it needed more land for it's growing population, and it was indeed an aggressive settlement campaign, as evidenced by Israel's immediate destruction of Arab homes in Jerusalem to secure areas "permanently" for greater Israel, and it's steady growth of settlers that are doing more than appeasing fundamentalist Jewish needs.

I will grant that she is willing to criticize Israeli policy, which is a rarity among anti- anti -zionists.

But once again, Truth Teller, we have to hear that refrain that accompanies any criticism of Israel and Zionism as smacking of anti semitism. I remember you being quick to call criticism of a Gay Senators exploitation of a young page as smacking of homophobia. Can't we get past salient criticism without throwing in the charge of bigotry?

Here's a great article in this issue:

The global social movement of extreme Islamists continues to work towards one of its main goals, the de-legitimatization of Israel so to bring about its destruction, while also aiming to usurp the global order and replace regimes throughout Islamic societies.

While this theocratic social movement carries on with its clearly articulated genocidal objectives, Western human rights advocates and progressives, especially in Western Europe, remain largely silent. How is it that social democratic intellectuals and progressives are voiceless in the face of theocratic, homophobic, sexist, anti-democratic racists, who make unequivocal public genocidal statements, backed up with actions consistent with this goal on the ground?

Among much of the West’s chattering classes Israel has been criticized in a disproportionate manner for decades. The rhetorical and ideological blinders have made it difficult for some on the Left, mainly in Europe, to assess the current situation in a coherent manner. This while levels of anti-Semitism increase significantly throughout much of Europe. British Jews, for example, are four times more likely to be attacked then Muslims, even though Islamophobia is also on the rise.

Much of the expression of the extreme Left in the UK and in Western Europe focuses on portraying Israel as some sort of omnipresent power that mysteriously holds sway over western governments, namely – though not limited to - Washington. This demonization utilizes classical anti-Semitic tropes, accusing Jewish citizens of dual loyalty. This form of dehumanizing stereotype played a key role in the devastating violence and dislocation of European Jewry historically. Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3354891,00.html)

Too bad she can't dissect the Palestinian point of view with the same "objectivity."


That was not the subject of the essay.

Will you at the very least agree that Palestinians who commit suicide bombings are war criminals?



I agree with much of what she says about Israel, but one cannot be an objective observer


I don't recall the word "objective" being used[just like you don't use that word in refernce to your viewpoint].

if one has no equally salient observations about the Arab Palestinians.


The essay was about why she was a anti-anti-Zionist,the Palestinan situation has nothing to do with that.


One also has to question her objectivity when she makes errors of fact.

1. The main thrust of Jewish immigration was from Eastern European Jews - mostly communists - the holocaust survivors did not come until just before the 1947-8 war by which time the intent to wrest a much larger area of land than ceded to it by the UN had been hatched by Ben Gurion and his cohorts. There was never any intent to "make do" with the UN plan.


Minor points that are open to interpertation [and not the main point of the topic].



2. The current occupation of land did not come from a "defensive war" it came from a so called "pre-emptive strike" by Israel that coincided with military rumblings from Egypt and Syria that had no serious intent.


Well,that's your interpertation,many disagree.



The precipitating factor was an Egyptianw iwithdrawal of access to the gulf. It came at a time that Israel had decided it needed more land for it's growing population, and it was indeed an aggressive settlement campaign, as evidenced by Israel's immediate destruction of Arab homes in Jerusalem to secure areas "permanently" for greater Israel, and it's steady growth of settlers that are doing more than appeasing fundamentalist Jewish needs.


Again,your intepertation.


I will grant that she is willing to criticize Israeli policy, which is a rarity among anti- anti -zionists.


And I've been critical of Sharon and Likuid too[ask GF].

So have most people I've known who share my view on this.



But once again, Truth Teller, we have to hear that refrain that accompanies any criticism of Israel and Zionism as smacking of anti semitism.


No one said those exact words,but if you turn refuse to condemn suicide bombings as war crimes,if you refuse to ackowlege that Zionism has been forced on by Jews by history,if you even refuse to admit there is such a thing as anti-Semitism and ther needs to be a refuge from it,than what other conclusion can one come to?



I remember you being quick to call criticism of a Gay Senators exploitation of a young page as smacking of homophobia.


I did when the crticism in question was based on homophobia,not when it wasn't.



Can't we get past salient criticism without throwing in the charge of bigotry?
Not when the crticism is based on biogtry.

Here is a viewpoint form a Marxist publication that is critical of Isreal and is not anti-Semitic ,but it also has the honesty to admit there is such a thing as left-wing anti-Semitism and that left-wing anti-Semitism comes from people who say that Isreal should not exist ,who say that Isreal is the problem in the Middle East and compaires Isrealis to Nazis and any Isreali leader to Hitler.

These Marxists are indeed right link : http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5041

More on Left-Wing anti-Semitism : www.jewschool.com?p=10741.

some points:

ellen willis believed in the merits of psychoanalysis, which puts her credibility on par with witch-doctors and medival alchemists. she was also jewish, so being anti-anti-Zionist (how about just calling her a 'zionist', instead of resorting to such unwieldy euphemisms?) is hardly an act of moral courage.

workers' liberty is a ridiculous publication--one of the most odious of the pro-war leftist rags (at least in the UK), and has been tacit supporter of the neo-cons' plan to 'liberate' iraq and re-make the middle east since the early 90s. it's hardly surprising that two of their biggest concerns are:

anti-semitism among leftists
the treatment of GBLT people in iraq

surely, two of the most pressing issues we face today!

some points:

ellen willis believed in the merits of psychoanalysis, which puts her credibility on par with witch-doctors and medival alchemists. she was also jewish, so being anti-anti-Zionist (how about just calling her a 'zionist', instead of resorting to such unwieldy euphemisms?) is hardly an act of moral courage.

workers' liberty is a ridiculous publication--one of the most odious of the pro-war leftist rags (at least in the UK), and has been tacit supporter of the neo-cons' plan to 'liberate' iraq and re-make the middle east since the early 90s. it's hardly surprising that two of their biggest concerns are:

anti-semitism among leftists
the treatment of GBLT people in iraq

surely, two of the most pressing issues we face today!
After seeing examples of left-wing anti-Semitism we now see an example ^of right-wing anti-Semitism.

Anyway,left-wing anti-Semitism is the topic,so please stay on topic.

nevermind, isnt worth it.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are two separate things - distinct because one refers to a religion while the other refers to a nation and because one refers to ethnic identity while the other refers to behavior. How would you who call yourself anti-anti-Zionists be able to tell the difference from way over where you sit? How can you expect that your own views might be distinguished from Jewish supremacists who look down on all other races or religions? Most importantly, where the hell do you get off flinging such vile labels and accusations at other people while rejecting any that come back? The double standard you use is itself proof that you consider yourself or your tribe to be innately above others - the very same attitude that led to the Holocaust in the first place. The cast might have changed, but the script remains the same.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are two separate things - distinct because one refers to a religion while the other refers to a nation and because one refers to ethnic identity while the other refers to behavior. How would you who call yourself anti-anti-Zionists be able to tell the difference from way over where you sit? How can you expect that your own views might be distinguished from Jewish supremacists who look down on all other races or religions? Most importantly, where the hell do you get off flinging such vile labels and accusations at other people while rejecting any that come back? The double standard you use is itself proof that you consider yourself or your tribe to be innately above others - the very same attitude that led to the Holocaust in the first place. The cast might have changed, but the script remains the same.
This is the most stupid post I've ever seen!

You claim that the Jews are supermacists? Supermacists are Nazis who want to rull all over the world and on the way are eliminating other races. So you are saying that the Jews are Nazis? So you are saying that the Jews behave like Nazi Germany?

1. When is the last time that the Jews did a holocaust to another nation?
2. When is the last time that the Jews sail at sea to conquer other lands like your ancestors did?
3. When is the last time that the Jews did an inquisition to other nations?

Ha?

You compare the behaviour of the Jews to your Roman barbaric behaviour?

And why are you saying all these lies?

Because you are used that Jews should live in ghettos and in concentration camps? You think that the Jews shouldn't live in their homeland? 100 nations in the world have the right to live in their countries except the Jews? Is that what you are saying?

When America is in danger she has the right to burn 500,000 Japanese and to destroy Afganistan, not to mention the elimination of the Indians and the Incas, it's ok ha?

For UK it's ok to conquer half of this world and to enslave the unhabitants of it, it's ok ha?

And those examples above aren't supermacists in your hypocrite eyes?

You claim that the Jews are supermacists?
Clearly English is not a language in which you are fluent, so I'll clarify. I do not believe that Jews in general are any one way. What I believe is that some Israeli Jews thinkthey are innately superior to others and not subject to others' morality - just as some American Christians believe likewise, though of course both claims cannot simultaneously be true.
Supermacists are Nazis who want to rull all over the world and on the way are eliminating other races.
Supremacy does not imply eliminating other races. It merely implies believing that one is supreme, i.e. in a position above others.
You compare the behaviour of the Jews to your Roman barbaric behaviour?
Ah yes, the noble Jews cannot be compared to those barbaric Romans, eh? That's one of the clearest examples of racism I've seen on this forum.

She was a radial feminist and a democratic socialist and like me she was a anti-anti-Zionist and could see that some of the anti-Zionist rhetoric of the left was dangerously close to anti-Semitism.

It wasn't 'dangerously close', it was outright antisemitism, and it's been plain to see for many years. I posted an essay on this general topic some months ago; it was about the German and European 'New Left', but it also fits the American 'New Left' to a T ...


Common Ground between Right and Left

Today's German anti-Semitism is deeply connected to the Nazi period and the wish to expunge guilt and responsibility for dealing with it. Right-wing extremism, neo-Nazism, and extreme conservatism seem "naturally" linked to denial or minimalization of the Holocaust, or calling for a new one. As elsewhere in Europe, a relatively new "brotherhood" has emerged in Germany between the extreme Right and fundamentalist Islam.

Anti-Zionism, however - which is not mere criticism of Israeli policies, but the denial of the Jewish people's right to live in their own state - also links leftists and rightists. Since the Six Day War of 1967, both the extreme and the mainstream Left in Europe have shown strong anti-Zionist tendencies, not always distinguishable from anti-Semitism. Although leftist anti-Zionism seemed to decline after the fall of Communism in 1990, it was reanimated by the Second Intifada and the antiglobalization movement, which is today a main source of leftist anti-Semitism.

In a May 2002 survey in the weekly magazine Der Spiegel, 25% agreed that "what the state of Israel does to the Palestinians is no different than what the Nazis did during the Third Reich to the Jews."2 A new scholarly book analyzes how deeply anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are rooted in German society.3 Since 1989, united Germany seems to stand on two main pillars: a strong anti-American and anti-Israeli attitude.

The Postwar, Pre-1967 Roots

Anti-Semitism was never exclusive to the Right; Communism, for its part, often vilified Jews as capitalists. Communism in East Germany, as elsewhere, denied the right to practice the Jewish religion and sought to eradicate religion in general, including Judaism. East Germany's anti-Semitic policies first became evident in January 1953 when the Stasi - the state security service - confiscated documents of the Jewish communities, searched the homes of Jewish leaders, and spoke of a "Zionist conspiracy." After the Six Day War, East Germany officially adopted an anti-Zionist stance. However, no serious data on East German anti-Semitism is available before the reunification in 1989.

Although West German left-wing anti-Semitism also increased steadily after the Six Day War, before then the West German Left supported Israel generally, and specifically the Wiedergutmachung (Reparations Agreement of 1953) and the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1965. This friendliness was, however, based on an idealization of Israel, kibbutzim, and pioneering and was not on genuinely firm ground.4 Opposition to the conservative government of Chancellor Konrad Adenauer also played a role in this left-wing philo-Semitism.

During the 1960s, the West German Left divided into a more "conservative" wing and a New Left trend. Whereas Chancellor Willy Brandt was said to be a true and unwavering friend of Israel,5 many young leftists took radical positions and opposed Brandt's "establishment" Social Democratic Party. In 1966 they founded the Nonparliamentary Opposition (APO), a popular movement that sought to "renew" German politics from the outside. Many of its members and supporters later showed sympathy for the RAF, a leftist terrorist movement that had ties to the PLO and whose cadres trained in terrorist camps in Lebanon.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-32.htm

Nice to see the occasional post that shows somebody at least reads something decent every once in a while. I'm glad somebody out there realizes what frauds most of what gets labeled as 'leftist' is merely upper class drivel a la Marie Antoinette style, not to mention Marxists have always been a minority on the left, not The Left by a long shot.

This is the most stupid post I've ever seen!

Nah, his stupidest post was his Big Scare And Alarum post about 'Joos on da innernet!!!!' thread, wherein he takes a year old story about some Jews writing up a little newsfeed alert program and makes out like it was a sinister major Mossad black ops disinformation operation. In fact, he tried out some innuendo about you in that thread, also; he's firmly in the Crackpot category, hence his caviling about pretending 'there's a difference' between his raving lunacy and anti-semitism; after all, everybody knows Jews aren't supposed to respond to the kind of insipid, cretinous, and oh-so-trendy terrorist fan-boy drivel that gets posted all over the internet daily, especially here on this board. Going through his posting history, he never seemed to have a problem with any other group whatsoever, no big 'Alarums about CAIR, .A.N.S.W.E.R., those psychotic psychiatric patients at MikeMalloy, etc., so you can take it to the bank he's a loon and is all for genocide against Israelis.

nevermind, isnt worth it.

You're supposed to be some dead fat guy. Why are you posting?

Welcome back, Farnsworth,Luther P. We were missing you a lot.

Not when the criticism is based on biogtry.

Since over 90% of the 'criticism' is canned propoganda and bald-faced lying, and the faux 'palestinian' problem is nothing but an international extortion racket, these cretins have nothing to offer in response of any merit. Not to mention that these atavistic animals had their democratic election, and the vast majority came down firmly on the side of murder, terrorism, and virulently racist genocide, they have nowhere to hide their lame gibberish about 'peace' any more. This has been blatantly obvious to anybody who has really looked at both sides, and most of the so-called 'critics' of Israel clearly haven't bothered.

Welcome back, Farnsworth,Luther P. We were missing you a lot.

Really? That's surprising ...LOL ...

Been busy making a living and all that boring stuff, and a working vacation or two down in Central America. Glad to see you've managed to annoy many of these trolls and getting threads locked. Good Work! :D

he takes a year old story about some Jews writing up a little newsfeed alert program
Yeah, that would be the one that you denied even existed, until it was pointed out that I had already posted a link to it and you were WRONG WRONG WRONG (assuming out of sheer charity that you weren't just lying instead). I'm surprised you'd want to mention that humiliating incident, even in the context of your habitual baiting and personal attacks.
In fact, he tried out some innuendo about you in that thread, also
More accurately, I gave him an opportunity to demonstrate for everyone how racist he is, and he took full advantage of that opportunity.

Take your trolling elsewhere. If you think getting threads locked is a good thing, you're obviously not here to debate anything and you have no place in civilized society.

Warning issued: personal attacks

Yeah, that would be the one that you denied even existed, until it was pointed out that I had already posted a link to it and you were WRONG WRONG WRONG (assuming out of sheer charity that you weren't just lying instead).

Go back and read it all again, Gomer. You claimed it was some big sinister Israeli government intelligence op of some kind, which of course you've yet to provide any link to; you linked to a dinky little 1.5 Meg newsfeed deal, but I understand your deep embarrassment. In fact you still post like a regular caller on the Coast To Coast radio show ... you're just duller than most.

'm surprised you'd want to mention that humiliating incident, even in the context of your habitual baiting and personal attacks.

I don't mind merntion your embarrassing little message board do-dos at all, but thanks for your concern ...

More accurately, I gave him an opportunity to demonstrate for everyone how racist he is, and he took full advantage of that opportunity.

More accurately, you just made some snotty little crap jibes, since you want to bring up 'habitual baiting' and poorly disguised 'personal attacks', not to mention trying to insinuate he turned up here as a result of the above mentioned 'sinister Mossad spyware' black ops you felt compelled to warn us all about ...

Take your trolling elsewhere. If you think getting threads locked is a good thing, you're obviously not here to debate anything and you have no place in civilized society.

I've never trolled here; just because you got caught hysterically jerking yourself off on the internet wearing a tinfoil condom doesn't mean everybody else who mocks your crazy nonsense is trolling, just so you know.

That was not the subject of the essay.

Will you at the very least agree that Palestinians who commit suicide bombings are war criminals? Sure if you will agree that killing kids who throw stones is a war crime; demolishing buildings with people inside is a war crime; settling in occupied territory is a war crime; assassinating people in other countries is a war crime....

I don't recall the word "objective" being used[just like you don't use that word in refernce to your viewpoint]. O.K. then we've agreed she is not making an objective commentary.

The essay was about why she was a anti-anti-Zionist,the Palestinan situation has nothing to do with that. If you take that position then I guess Zionism occurred in a vacuum! The very definition of zionism is: to take over land lived on by Palestinian Arabs!

ackowlege that Zionism has been forced on by Jews by history

Just like the Pilgrims were forced to go to America and take it as theirs? There was no being "forced on" ( O.K. if you won't let us live in peace here, we'll take over somebody elses place), just options chosen and enforced by superior powers.

if you even refuse to admit there is such a thing as anti-Semitism and ther needs to be a refuge from it,

Oh Puleez! Back to the old "If you won't agree with me about Israel then your an anti semite" drivel. The USA has more Jews than Israel, they don't seem to need a refuge!

I did when the crticism in question was based on homophobia,not when it wasn't.

No, you pointed the homophobe finger when I disagreed with you!


Not when the crticism is based on biogtry.

So what you are saying is that criticizing Israel is bigotry, and criticizing a gay senator of abusing his position and taking advantage of a minor is bigotry!

I've never trolled here; just because you got caught hysterically jerking yourself off on the internet wearing a tinfoil condom doesn't mean everybody else who mocks your crazy nonsense is trolling, just so you know.


You're trolling right now you dumbass.

You're the reason this ****ing forum has gone downhill

Get the **** out of here and stay out.

You claim that the Jews are supermacists? Actually you stated this very thing several months ago. I'm not going to dredge that piece of tripe up, but many remember it well. Your phrase was: The Jews are superior!

Welcome back, Farnsworth,Luther P. We were missing you a lot.

Yeah like AIDS or cancer! Farnsworth, the Borat of Judaism.

ofcoruse antiu-semitism and anti-zionism is something different. not all jews are zionists, about half of them dont live in israel.

You're trolling right now you dumbass.

You're the reason this ****ing forum has gone downhill

Get the **** out of here and stay out.

Ah, a sterling endorsement from the resident La Raza racist and criminal sympathizer ... Now I feel warm and fuzzy all over! Thank you!

Yeah like AIDS or cancer! Farnsworth, the Borat of Judaism.

Another endorsement from a virulent genocidal racist maniac ...

It's like being home ... sniff ... sob ...

ofcoruse antiu-semitism and anti-zionism is something different. not all jews are zionists, about half of them dont live in israel.
The fact that Jews don't live in Israel does not says that they aren't Zionists. I have Jewish relatives in England and they are more Zionists than couple of Jews in Israel. Here are couple of Zionist organizations abroad, which support Israel:

http://www.jnf.org/site/PageServer

http://www.jnf.co.uk

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/default.asp

http://bnaibrith.org

http://www.betar.co.uk

http://www.betar.ca/index.jsp

http://www.betar.org

http://mzone.mweb.co.za/residents/kotzen/homepage.htm

http://www.maccabigb.org/overseas

http://www.maccabiusa.com

http://www.maccabiworld.org

http://www.bauk.org/bauk

http://www.fzy.org.uk

http://www.zionist.org.uk/Main

http://www.voteliberaljudaism.org.uk/about.htm

http://www.mizrachi.org.uk

http://www.tribeuk.com

http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/news_-_index/israel_news/index.htm

http://www.doingzionism.org.il/federations/fed_home.asp?fed=zfgbi

http://www.bneiakiva.com.au

http://www.bneiakiva.asn.au

http://www.bne-akiwa.ch

http://www.bnei.co.za

http://www.bneiakiva.org

http://www.bneiakivacleveland.org

http://www.bneiakiva.org/southflorida/section.asp

http://www.zoa.org

http://www.rza.org

http://www.azm.org

http://www.wizo.org/english/about_mission.asp

http://www.hashomerhatzair.org/HASHOMERHATZAIRHOME.asp

http://www.hashomerhatzair.com.ar

http://www.hashy.org.au/index2.html?1004

http://www.hashomerhatzair.at

http://www.hachomer.net

http://www.hashomer.be

http://www.hashomerhatzair.ca/index.php

http://www.lashomer.com

http://www.hashomerhatzair.ch/_hashomerhatzair.ch/_index/index.asp

http://www.youngjudaea.org/html/israel.html

http://www.huji.ac.il/huji/eng/friends_e.htm

It's not so easy to leave a country that you were born in it. Anyway, Aliyah to Israel is on rise:

Aliyah 2006: 25 percent increase in British immigrants

Lower immigration figures for 2006 attributed to war in Lebanon, massive jump in aliyah from Britain, North America. Absorption champ of the year goes to Jerusalem, with 2,186 of the 19,200 new immigrants choosing to make their home in capital city Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3341865,00.html)

218 Bnei Menashe to make aliya

A group of 218 people from the Bnei Menashe community will soon be immigrating to Israel as recognized Jews for the first time. Full article inside (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1159193355309&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Indian immigrants: Israel is our home

Fifty members of Bnei Menashe tribe arrive in Israel Tuesday

Sara Menashe, 78, arrived in Israel from India on Tuesday with 49 other members of the Bnei Menashe tribe.

"I am happy to be finally in the Land of Israel. Since I was a child they told me about the family's dream to immigrate to Israel," said the new immigrant. Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3330906,00.html)

"I'm going home," says British-born Sharon. "It's a place that I have wanted to go for many years. My mother is Israeli and our family have survived there for many years in difficult times. But I am also going for the good times."

"To say you are a Jew because of your religion is not the whole story. You are part of a people with a shared history and culture. It's the story of a Jewish civilisation to want to return to Israel."

"I know we have our Jewish community here but Israel, its environment is much larger. I don't want people to think that I am some kind of religious zealot, because I'm not, but Israel has kedushah - a holiness of the soil - that makes me feel closer to God."

"We believe that this is our country we are going to and that gives us protection. I could get on the Tube tomorrow here in London and the risks are the same."

People are wonderful to you," he says. "You're not a 'bloody immigrant' - none of that talk you get here in England. You're someone coming home who hears: 'Baruch haba! Welcome here!
Full article inside (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4797425.stm)

"In America, we are living on borrowed time. This isn’t really our home. The one and only place a Jew can be a Jew without explaining anything is Israel. That is our true home, our history, and our holidays,"
Full article inside (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3344524,00.html)

Eat your own hat, oki. Your tries to go against the Jewish nation will lead to nothing. I promise you!

Actually you stated this very thing several months ago. I'm not going to dredge that piece of tripe up, but many remember it well. Your phrase was: The Jews are superior!

Obviously you and the other terrorist fan boys think they are, given the magical all encompassing super powers you and the other insane Neo-Nazi psychotics keep attributing to them ...

You're trolling right now you dumbass.

You're the reason this ****ing forum has gone downhill

Get the **** out of here and stay out.
And this unappropriate post is coming from you, jojo????

I have to admit that I didn't expect to hear such ugly words from you.

If you think getting threads locked is a good thing, you're obviously not here to debate anything and you have no place in civilized society.

Ah, I missed this little piece of fatuous posturing ...

If you bothered to develop any reading skills, you would noticed that the threads are getting locked because of the insipid ravings of the resident trolls ... you know , the very frauds like yourself who keep raving on and on about 'debating', despite having no interest in actually doing so, running around launching stupid personal attacks, derailing threads with gibberish, and then whining about it all, not Jacob's posts, Hero ...

Hilarious ...

And this unappropriate post is coming from you, jojo????

I have to admit that I didn't expect to hear such ugly words from you.

One of the attractions of this place is the semi-conscious projections and general congenital insanity of the regulars.

Eat your own hat, oki. Your tries to go against the Jewish nation will lead to nothing. I promise you!

Oki actually thinks the Nazis deserved sympathy, and they were are just misunderstood and mistreated.

How would you who call yourself anti-anti-Zionists be able to tell the difference from way over where you sit? How can you expect that your own views might be distinguished from Jewish supremacists who look down on all other races or religions?

What you say is that every anti-anti-zionist that happen to be a jew will allways be suspected in being "jewish supremacists" - whatever it is - and any opinion of them does not count.

Sure if you will agree that killing kids who throw stones is a war crime; demolishing buildings with people inside is a war crime; settling in occupied territory is a war crime; assassinating people in other countries is a war crime....



Ha, you will never accuse palestinian terrorists in war crime, or jusr crime, to you this definition belongs only to Israel.

What you say is that every anti-anti-zionist that happen to be a jew will allways be suspected in being "jewish supremacists" - whatever it is - and any opinion of them does not count.
No, that's not what I say. It's what I asked. Do you find that kind of dismissive attitude offensive? GOOD, because it's exactly the way that Luther or Face - or for that matter you - treat critics of Israel, lumping them all together with a different group of supremacists. Different cast, same script. That's the whole point I was trying to make. Do you get it now? Maybe when you start showing some recognition that not all critics of the Israeli government mean to see Jews exterminated, when you start making appeals to reason instead of applying that vicious smear to any who dare challenge your distorted view of the facts, then people will start taking you seriously. Your move.

Maybe when you start showing some recognition that not all critics of the Israeli government mean to see Jews exterminated, when you start making appeals to reason instead of applying that vicious smear to any who dare challenge your distorted view of the facts, then people will start taking you seriously. Your move.

You convinced me again that there is no point in talking with you.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are two separate things - distinct because one refers to a religion while the other refers to a nation and because one refers to ethnic identity while the other refers to behavior.


That does not have much to do with the major points made in the links.


How would you who call yourself anti-anti-Zionists be able to tell the difference from way over where you sit?


WTF are you talking about ?

The issue is not that any crticism of Isreal makes one an anti-Semite,but that saying that Isreal is the whole or main problem I think does do that.

Isreal has made a lot of mistakes and done a lot of wrong things [name me a country that hasn't],but to put the whole blame on Isreal and to not admit that the Palestinians and the Arabic nations the ME are just as much to blame is just plain wrong.

And to use terms like "Jewish Lobby" is [at the very least ]Judeophobic.

How can any rational person interpert otherwise?

As I [and others] have said ,Zionism is a situation that has been forced on Jews,if there had been a Isreal in the 1920s or 1930s the Holocaust wouldn't have happend,Isreal's survival is the only thing that insures another Holocaust won't happen again.




Sure if you will agree that killing kids who throw stones is a war crime; demolishing buildings with people inside is a war crime; settling in occupied territory is a war crime; assassinating people in other countries is a war crime....


You should have an answer of your own to this question that has nothing to do with my views be they pro or con.

O.K. then we've agreed she is not making an objective commentary.


Nor are you,myself,,or anyone else posting here.


If you take that position then I guess Zionism occurred in a vacuum! The very definition of zionism is: to take over land lived on by Palestinian Arabs!


The Palestinans were offered a state in 1948,they selfishly said "NO".


Just like the Pilgrims were forced to go to America and take it as theirs?


Most Native American tribes offered to share the land with the New World,much like the offer that Palestinians turned down in 1948.

I mean you are simplifiying both Plymouth Rock and 1948.



Oh Puleez! Back to the old "If you won't agree with me about Israel then your an anti semite" drivel. The USA has more Jews than Israel, they don't seem to need a refuge!


The USA is not the only country in the world.

In many other countries there historically has been ,could be again [and sometimes still are],a need for refuge from anti-Semitic persecution,even if your incorrect agrument that there is no need for a Isreal today is correct [and that's really streching it],Isreal needs to exist in case anti-Jewish persecution ever comes back [and it would be very foolish to say it couldn't].


No, you pointed the homophobe finger when I disagreed with you!


Because you were making a deal out of his sexual orentation as opposed to his deeds.





So what you are saying is that criticizing Israel is bigotry, and criticizing a gay senator of abusing his position and taking advantage of a minor is bigotry!
When did I ever say those exact words?

ofcoruse antiu-semitism and anti-zionism is something different. not all jews are zionists, about half of them dont live in israel.

You're ignoring he bigger ponts myself and everyone linked has made.

Ha, you will never accuse palestinian terrorists in war crime, or jusr crime, to you this definition belongs only to Israel.


Correct ,and any logical person would regard this as anti-Semetic.

Oki actually thinks the Nazis deserved sympathy, and they were are just misunderstood and mistreated. sure, why not make up stuff if you dont anything smart to say? :rolleyes:

You're ignoring he bigger ponts myself and everyone linked has made. no Im inserting an important point, not to be forgotten. its so easy to think of people who oppose israels policies as anti-semites, it usually isnt. Im sure there are exeptions, though.

Eat your own hat, oki. Your tries to go against the Jewish nation will lead to nothing. I promise you!sometimes you make me laugh really hard, this was one of those times.
there are lots of jewish people opposing israel, and even more opposing only your gouv. policies, Im sure you are aware of this.

If you're going to believe that left wing criticism of Israel has anything to do with "anti-Semitism" -- which is the most cynically exploited mindless slogan this side of "terrorism" -- it really helps to be a mentally retarded, passive aggressive pussy.

And to use terms like "Jewish Lobby" is [at the very least ]Judeophobic.

How can any rational person interpert otherwise?
How can any rational person ignore the fact that there is a very well-funded pro-Israel lobby in the US? Do you need to see financial statements from AIPAC before you'll believe it? Reality is not a phobia. Are you really sure you want to start psychoanalyzing the content of posts in this thread? I don't think that would be very wise of you, since the most obviously pathological behaviors - denial, attention seeking, deep insecurity and egomania - have all been exhibited by Israel's apologists.

there are lots of jewish people opposing israel, and even more opposing only your gouv. policies, Im sure you are aware of this.
You must be the leader of the anti-semite group who oppose Israel and it's right to exist and it's right to defend herself. I'm sure you oppose to the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza 18 months ago that brought only more terror and more violence to Israel.

But I don't blame you but the Israelis who destroy their country by themselves.

Well done, Mr.Olmert. Just give them more land, don't hunt after terrorists, elect more Arabs to the cabinett etc, and that should stop the killing. I'm pretty sure of it.

You must be the leader of the anti-semite group who oppose Israel and it's right to exist and it's right to defend herself.
Did I forget to mention paranoia in my list before? Thanks for reminding me.

You should have an answer of your own to this question that has nothing to do with my views be they pro or con.

Then as you forgot your original question you shouldn't even reply!

The Palestinans were offered a state in 1948,they selfishly said "NO". You continue to show you have not read anything but Dershowitz.

Most Native American tribes offered to share the land with the New World,much like the offer that Palestinians turned down in 1948.

Except 1. that the Israelis were not native, and 2. The Palestinians turned down a deal to give up 2/3 of their land.

In many other countries there historically has been ,could be again [and sometimes still are],a need for refuge from anti-Semitic persecution,even if your incorrect agrument that there is no need for a Isreal today is correct [and that's really streching it],Isreal needs to exist in case anti-Jewish persecution ever comes back [and it would be very foolish to say it couldn't].

Since I have never argued that Israel does not need to exist, this argument goes nowhere. My point is that Israel does not need to exist for protection of the Jews, anymore than Africa needs to exist for the protection of African Americans. Better to live where you don't take over someone elses land, and you don't subjugate a minority.

Because you were making a deal out of his sexual orentation as opposed to his deeds.

It was the other way around. You thought his deeds were no big deal, just as you think Israel's deeds are no big deal. You were upset because I was holding him to the same ethical behavior as hetero sexual predator senators.


When did I ever say those exact words? The anti semitic=anti zionist is implied by your thread: "Left wing anti semitism" followed by an article on anti zionism. Otherwise you would have said: "Left wing anti zionism." As far as the other, you called me a homophobe when I criticized a Homosexual Senators predatory behavior with a very Junior page.

Correct ,and any logical person would regard this as anti-Semetic. Then by this logic all you pro Israelis are Muslim hating bigots. Admit that!

The Palestinians turned down a deal to give up 2/3 of their land.
It's not their land. It never was. They are not exist as a nation (please read my signature below) and the most important fact is that the UN NEVER decided to establish a "Palestinian state". The UN decided that the west bank will go to Jordan (The Arabinians should move to there cause 80% of the Jordanians define themselves as "Palestinians".) and the Gaza strip should go to Egypt. Both Jordan and Egypt don't want these places, not to mention that these 2 places are part of the land of Israel.

My point is that Israel does not need to exist for protection of the Jews, anymore than Africa needs to exist for the protection of African Americans.
Each nation in this world has a land to live on. So do the Jews who have their lands. You are anti-semite and you miss the times that the Jews were your slaves in the concentration camps and in the ghettos. This is why you are saying these racist words of yours.

Better to live where you don't take over someone elses land, and you don't subjugate a minority.
Nobody took any land. The Jews returned to their land which was stolen from them by your Roman ancestors. Whilst in the last 200-300 years, couple of barbaric primitive tribes have been settled in this land by the Utoman empire. They invaded from Arabia and this is their home.

Nobody subjugate a minority. In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

And you forget to mention that Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms. Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries.

We will defeat the barbaric human animals enemies!

Jews to Judea, Arabs to Arabia!

You must be the leader of the anti-semite group who oppose Israel and it's right to exist and it's right to defend herself. I'm sure you oppose to the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza 18 months ago that brought only more terror and more violence to Israel.

But I don't blame you but the Israelis who destroy their country by themselves.

Well done, Mr.Olmert. Just give them more land, don't hunt after terrorists, elect more Arabs to the cabinett etc, and that should stop the killing. I'm pretty sure of it. Im glad you dont blame me for things you make up about me. :nice: thats pretty decent of you. :)

Ah yes, "left-wing anti-semitism"...

Why don't we ever see anything denouncing true threats to Jewish people from REAL anti-semitic groups like the Klan, White Nationalist movements, or neo-Nazi groups who are all far right wing fringe groups?

It's just "peace leftists" this, "anti-semitic liberals" that, blah blah blah..

The zionists are so blinded by their zealotry that they can't even see the true threat, instead they focus on those who denounce regressive violence done by the Israeli government.

Thanks for telling us all how criticism of Israels policies is newsworthy but neo-Nazi attacks against Jews in Germany is not. :nonono:

We will defeat the barbaric human animals enemies!


I bow to you Oh Superior Jew!

signed: Inferior snivelling Christian.

no Im inserting an important point, not to be forgotten. its so easy to think of people who oppose israels policies as anti-semites, it usually isnt. Im sure there are exeptions, though.


Everyone in this argument from myself to the Democratic Socialist ,the Marxist and young Leftie I linked said being critical of Isreal in and of itself does not make one an anti-Semite,you are making a argument that has already been made and does not discuss the broader point.


there are lots of jewish people opposing israel, and even more opposing only your gouv. policies, Im sure you are aware of this.

Opposition to Isreal is not the issue,opposition that puts all the blame on Isreal or denies Isreal's right to exist is the issue.



How can any rational person ignore the fact that there is a very well-funded pro-Israel lobby in the US?


Then call it the Pro-Isreal Lobby,not the "Jewish Lobby".




Reality is not a phobia.


What does that mean?


Are you really sure you want to start psychoanalyzing the content of posts in this thread? I don't think that would be very wise of you, since the most obviously pathological behaviors - denial, attention seeking, deep insecurity and egomania - have all been exhibited by Israel's apologists.


I'm not an apologist for Isreal,I just think they have the right to exist and the right to defend themselves.


Then as you forgot your original question you shouldn't even reply!


I brought up a point made in the first essay linked and asked if you agreed with it or not.

Your opinon of that should have nothing to with me since I didn't write the essay [besides ,I asked first,answer my question and I'll answer yours].



You continue to show you have not read anything but Dershowitz.


He isn't my only source,but I do think he's a great man who has done more for civil liberties than almost anyone else.


Except 1. that the Israelis were not native,


That's a matter of debate.



and 2. The Palestinians turned down a deal to give up 2/3 of their land.


It was not legally Palestinian land,anyway what's wrong with sharing ?

Especially after what the Jews had just been through in the Holocaust and the fact that there was still rampant anti-Semetic persecution in the world?





My point is that Israel does not need to exist for protection of the Jews,


If it had existed in the 1920s and 1930s there would have been no Holocaust and who is to say the Holocaust couldn't happen again if there were no Isreal?

After all the whole world knows about Darfur and is dong nothing about it.



anymore than Africa needs to exist for the protection of African Americans.


Africa is a large continent,Isreal is a small country.




Better to live where you don't take over someone elses land,


It was never legally Palestinian land,if the Palestinans had accepted the 1948 deal they would have had their own legal nation.



and you don't subjugate a minority.


And if the the Palestinians had taken the 1948 deal two minorities would have had their own nations and not been subjugated.




It was the other way around. You thought his deeds were no big deal,


You are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.


just as you think Israel's deeds are no big deal.


You are puting words in my mouth that I didn't say.


You were upset because I was holding him to the same ethical behavior as hetero sexual predator senators.


Still putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.



The anti semitic=anti zionist is implied by your thread: "Left wing anti semitism" followed by an article on anti zionism.


All the articles/essays [one by a Democratic Socialist,one by a Marxist ,one by a young Leftist]were about how anti-Zionism can cross into anti-Semitism.

All three articles/essays said that being critical of Isreal in and of itself is not anti-Semitic but denying Isreal's right to exist is anti-Semitic.



Otherwise you would have said: "Left wing anti zionism."


It isn't only me,all three essays said "left-wing anti-Semitism",if you want to say that all people on the left are immune from prejudices of the rest of society [and I can tell you from firsthand experience that is not true] then go ahead and state your case.



As far as the other, you called me a homophobe when I criticized a Homosexual Senators predatory behavior with a very Junior page.


I said you were giving a knee-jerk reaction to a complicated situation and I stand by that.

And I also said the voter's in Studd's district who knew the full story also disagreed with you and that is a fact.


Then by this logic all you pro Israelis are Muslim hating bigots. Admit that!
I can only speak for myself,when people at this forum [sinced banned or left on their own accord] were advocating riding society of all Muslems I stood up to those people.

I stood up for Congressman Ellison's right to take to the oath on the Ouran and called Dennis Prager and his ilk for the bigots I feel they are.

If you're going to believe that left wing criticism of Israel has anything to do with "anti-Semitism" -- which is the most cynically exploited mindless slogan this side of "terrorism" -- it really helps to be a mentally retarded, passive aggressive pussy.
WTF?:confused:

Ah yes, "left-wing anti-semitism"...


Did you read the three links?

One was by a Democratic Socialist,one was by a Marxist and one was by young Leftist ,they all used that term,it isn't reflective of the enitre left [not them nor of myself],but it is a fair statment.


Why don't we ever see anything denouncing true threats to Jewish people from REAL anti-semitic groups like the Klan, White Nationalist movements, or neo-Nazi groups who are all far right wing fringe groups?


Agreed.

Likewise,why don't we see more Leftist comdemnation of Palestinians and other Arabs who engage in anti-Jewish violence,anti-Jewish slurs,the death penalty and subjugation of women and gays?


It's just "peace leftists" this, "anti-semitic liberals" that, blah blah blah..


Did you read the three links [all by leftists] ?

No one is saying that.


The zionists are so blinded by their zealotry


Are you saying that all Zionists [or all people who are pro-Zionist] are alike?



that they can't even see the true threat, instead they focus on those who denounce regressive violence done by the Israeli government.

Once again,being critical of Isreal does not make one an anti-Semite,denying Isreal's right to exist,to put the enitre blame of Isreal ,to give Isreal most of the burdon and looking the other way or excusing Palestinan/Arab abuses does makes it a legit question.



Thanks for telling us all how criticism of Israels policies is newsworthy but neo-Nazi attacks against Jews in Germany is not. :nonono:


Myself nor any of the lefties I linked have done that.

Everyone in this argument from myself to the Democratic Socialist ,the Marxist and young Leftie I linked said being critical of Isreal in and of itself does not make one an anti-Semite,you are making a argument that has already been made and does not discuss the broader point.

sorry.. but jacob just proclaimed me to be an anti-semite, so maybe it shoud be stressed some more for some.
Opposition to Isreal is not the issue,opposition that puts all the blame on Isreal or denies Isreal's right to exist is the issue.anti-semitism is when you oppose jews, just because they are jews. when someone opposes the existance of israel, thats not the same thing eighter. its a political stance. yes, a pretty extreme and stupid one, looking at the present situation. but its not the same thing as hating jews, you can genuinly feel that israel should never have been created and that the best solution is to dismantle it again. an anti semite just wants to stop jews existing completely.

sorry.. but jacob just proclaimed me to be an anti-semite, so maybe it shoud be stressed some more for some.


Well,I have issues with the way Jacob sometimes does things too.



anti-semitism is when you oppose jews, just because they are jews. when someone opposes the existance of israel, thats not the same thing eighter. its a political stance. yes, a pretty extreme and stupid one, looking at the present situation. but its not the same thing as hating jews, you can genuinly feel that israel should never have been created and that the best solution is to dismantle it again. an anti semite just wants to stop jews existing completely.

But if the end result of no Jewish state is no Jews existing,then it is anti-Semitism regardless if one knows that or not or one admits that or not.

The end result is still the same[I think this was what Dr. King meant in his equating of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism].

Well,I have issues with the way Jacob sometimes does things too.




But if the end result of no Jewish state is no Jews existing,then it is anti-Semitism regardless if one knows that or not or one admits that or not.

thats why I think its not too smart to want this, because it can only happen in a huge war, since theres no way israelis are going anywhere without a fight. (I dont blame them)
but in principle, it can be an opinion that israelis should just leave and go live somewhere else, like they did before israel was started. you cna feel that their claim on the territory is a religous one, and based on acient history, which you can not feel a good enough arguement.

thats why I think its not too smart to want this, because it can only happen in a huge war, since theres no way israelis are going anywhere without a fight. (I dont blame them)


If the Palestinians had agreed to a two-state agreement in 1948 mthis would have all been resolved then.


but in principle, it can be an opinion that israelis should just leave and go live somewhere else, like they did before israel was started.


That's what gave us the Holocaust.




you cna feel that their claim on the territory is a religous one,



I leave that suff out of this.

If the Palestinians had agreed to a two-state agreement in 1948 mthis would have all been resolved then.
thats an opinion too. Im saying that beeing anti-zionist is not the same as being an anti-semite. you cna be a jew and be anti-zionist, without wanting bad things for jewish people.

That's what gave us the Holocaust.

no, racism gave us the holocaust. are you against minorities beeing present in countries, simply because that can lead to a holocaust? there are still jewish populations all over europe today.


I leave that suff out of this but zionists dont.

thats an opinion too. Im saying that beeing anti-zionist is not the same as being an anti-semite. you cna be a jew and be anti-zionist, without wanting bad things for jewish people.


True,but this topic is not about those people,it is about the Judeophobes.


no, racism gave us the holocaust.


And if there had been an Isreal in the 1920s and 1930s there would have been no Holocaust.




are you against minorities beeing present in countries, simply because that can lead to a holocaust?


I'm against any genocide and am in favor of anything to prevent it.

The only prevention I can presently see to another Holocaust is a Jewish state.



there are still jewish populations all over europe today.

And that can change in a New York Minute too.


If you're implying that another Holocuast can't happen simply because people wouldn't let it happen I say to you that genocide is going on in Darfur right now,the whole world knows about it and is doing nothing about it.




but zionists dont.

1.Not all Zionists are alike.

2.There many different forms of Zionism ranging from right-wing to left-wing.


It's interesting that you are saying don't paint all people with the same brush,yet you are doing that to Zionists?

3. As a independent Leftist I speak and think only for myself ,nobody or nothing else ,and I have enough legit arguments for Isreal's right to exist and right to self-defense without having to go into religion.